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Coil- uncoil vs. stride

Low FinishLow Finish500+ posts
I contend that there is no stride in MLB hitting, despite there being a linear move forward. I believe that there the coil process moves the hitter forward. Many disagree with me, and I will attempt to refute what they believe in this thread.

So let me begin by using this picture.



You cannot get this much stretch without hitting from a coiled rear leg. You will not have your COG lower without a "forward by coiling" action.



Now let me use another picture:

You cannot have this kind of delay with a stride. This kind of adjustability comes only with a forward by coiling action.

For all mods: if you want me to take down these images, please notify me
Last edited {1}
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N NDD100+ posts
Look up the definition of the word stride.

Of course they are coiling and uncoiling. They are also striding. It doesn't have to be an "either/or" proposition. There are all kinds of rotational and linear movements in a good swing - what difference does that make?

You are either denying your eyes or don't know what the word stride means.

Before we go any further, are you going to tell eaglecoach you were wrong about hitting off the heel drop without picking the front foot all the way off the ground is "bad" or are you going to leave that bad information out there?
WalawalaWalawala100+ posts
The stride happens because the body is going forward.

A lot of coaches teach a "reach" of the front foot. They use the anaology "as if you were stepping on thin ice."

It sounds good and has stuck around because everyone can visualize what that looks like.

However, that type of stride is not evident in any high level swing.
bballdad2016bballdad20161,000+ posts
Stride or no stride, coil-uncoil... either way, the hitters in all of these videos are finishing their swing with their weight "back". That is the important aspect of all of this. Either way you slice it it is all in the hips, good arm extension and the ever so slight "lean" to the back (while still swinging level) that is evident in all of these videos and discussion. The forward motion of the front leg (or stride) is a byproduct of a proper swing that has good balance and a solid COG at the end of the swing.

There are Little League players all over the country that try to mimic "the stride" but cant hit a ball off the tee. There are so many other mechanics of a proper swing that come into play.

My 2 cents.
Low FinishLow Finish500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by NDD:
Look up the definition of the word stride.

Of course they are coiling and uncoiling. They are also striding. It doesn't have to be an "either/or" proposition. There are all kinds of rotational and linear movements in a good swing - what difference does that make?

You are either denying your eyes or don't know what the word stride means.

Before we go any further, are you going to tell eaglecoach you were wrong about hitting off the heel drop without picking the front foot all the way off the ground is "bad" or are you going to leave that bad information out there?


If you can provide me with a video of a player who does not pick his foot up off the ground, then yes. Read Dixon's The Exceptional Player.

The coil makes the move forward happen. It is a reach with the front foot. I want my coil and stretch to stay in my back hip. The swing shifts my weight. I do not stride to 50-50 balance.

Walawala, please look at this video of Pujols



Is he not reaching with his front leg?
N NDD100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Low Finish:

If you can provide me with a video of a player who does not pick his foot up off the ground, then yes. Read Dixon's The Exceptional Player.

The coil makes the move forward happen. It is a reach with the front foot. I want my coil and stretch to stay in my back hip. The swing shifts my weight. I do not stride to 50-50 balance.

Walawala, please look at this video of Pujols



Is he not reaching with his front leg?


i did that already. Edmonds, the one you used as an example. And Pujols in the video I posted in the other thread. Both of them toe tocuhing, drop heel and turn.

A reach and plant with the front foot is called "stride"

In that picture, Pujols is striding. In the link I posted he is not. One is on the field, the other is in the cage.
Last edited by NDD
Low FinishLow Finish500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by NDD:
quote:
Originally posted by Low Finish:

If you can provide me with a video of a player who does not pick his foot up off the ground, then yes. Read Dixon's The Exceptional Player.

The coil makes the move forward happen. It is a reach with the front foot. I want my coil and stretch to stay in my back hip. The swing shifts my weight. I do not stride to 50-50 balance.

Walawala, please look at this video of Pujols



Is he not reaching with his front leg?


i did that already. Edmonds, the one you used as an example. And Pujols in the video I posted in the other thread. Both of them toe tocuhing, drop heel and turn.

A reach and plant with the front foot is called "stride"

In that picture, Pujols is striding. In the link I posted he is not. One is on the field, the other is in the cage.


Very well, then I retract my statement about how not picking up the front foot is bad. I know what a stride is. I believe that the debate is over the cause of the stride.

bballdad2016,

Very good video. Golf and baseball are very similar swings (except in one, the ball moves)
Low FinishLow Finish500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by NDD:
Your statement is still in that thread. Retracting it here doesn't do any good for people that don't read both.

You make some good posts here, you don't want that one out there.

You want to discuss what causes the stride? Or what the purpose of it is?


The offending post has been eliminated. The stride is caused by the coil action. Some call it (forward by coiling). The hands load after the coil. The purpose of the stride is to break inertia, and assist coiling (I have problems coiling when I try no-stride)

You don't stand there and not move your foot. You won't hit anything above about 75 mph that way. No stride refers to not making a motion forward.
N NDD100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by bballdad2016:
Stride or no stride, coil-uncoil... either way, the hitters in all of these videos are finishing their swing with their weight "back". That is the important aspect of all of this. Either way you slice it it is all in the hips, good arm extension and the ever so slight "lean" to the back (while still swinging level) that is evident in all of these videos and discussion. The forward motion of the front leg (or stride) is a byproduct of a proper swing that has good balance and a solid COG at the end of the swing.

There are Little League players all over the country that try to mimic "the stride" but cant hit a ball off the tee. There are so many other mechanics of a proper swing that come into play.

My 2 cents.
Weight back where? Look at the Pujols video above that lowfinish posted. Where is his weight? Where is his COG?
Low FinishLow Finish500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by bballdad2016:
Stride or no stride, coil-uncoil... either way, the hitters in all of these videos are finishing their swing with their weight "back". That is the important aspect of all of this. Either way you slice it it is all in the hips, good arm extension and the ever so slight "lean" to the back (while still swinging level) that is evident in all of these videos and discussion. The forward motion of the front leg (or stride) is a byproduct of a proper swing that has good balance and a solid COG at the end of the swing.

There are Little League players all over the country that try to mimic "the stride" but cant hit a ball off the tee. There are so many other mechanics of a proper swing that come into play.

My 2 cents.


Level to what?
N NDD100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Low Finish:
quote:
Originally posted by NDD:
Look at it again and watch his front foot. Striding has to do with the front foot, not the hands. Forget about the hands.

Look at his front foot and describe what he does with it.


He picks it up, and lets the coil put it back down.
Picks what up? His front foot? Does his toe leave the ground? Does that foot move forward from where it was before he started moving?

By definition, stride requires the foot to be picked up and moved and put back down. Is that what Edmonds is doing?
Jimmy33Jimmy3310+ posts
By definition, Edmonds does not stride in the clip. His heel lifts of the ground but his toe stays in contact with the ground. His heel actually travels backwards as it lands.

Although he does not stride... He does transfer his weight and therefore energy to his backside then forward. (hips shift back then forward during the swing)

At the same time he has some internal rotation (coil) aiding in the build up of energy to be released through the ball.

The key to all of this is to control the energy that is being built up with the (load and slight coil)... So you limit swinging at pitches out of the zone of course. Smile

Every hitter does this, most allow their front foot to leave the ground with a stride... some like Edmonds in this clip do not stride (by definition).
Last edited by Jimmy33
N NDD100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Low Finish:

I recognize this, but (personally), I'm very honest. Sometimes people don't like this. Admittedly, there are many bad instructors out there. I think you'll agree with me. I have not said anything is absolutely wrong, I have merely said XYZ are wrong and need to be changed for a decent swing to be achieved.

Sometimes I am somewhat caustic/abrasive. I will try to tone that down so my information comes across more clearly.

So in a nutshell (for those of you who I've irritated), here's what I believe.

Hitting is done with the Hips and Hands, the shoulders are along for the ride.


I am going to address this from 2015 thread here, so as to not ruin yet another thread.

First of all honest and opinionated are two entirely different things. Cabbagedad tried to mentor you a bit and it obviously did not take. Secondly you contradict yourself yet again in the above. Third, you don't have "information", you have an opinion, just like everybody else.

You tell me in another thread "Don't make this about our disagreements!" while trashing the obvious hours a young player has been working, and you do it all the time. We did not have a "disagreement" - you were wrong. Now we have a disagreement.

You think you have all the answers kid, yet will not show us how to do it. Look at the coaches on here, they don't say "This is what's you're doing wrong and you have to change it now or you'll fail!" They say, "This is what I see, this is what we do, good luck."

Those players you "critiqued" has the courage to post video of what they are doing for all the world to see. And they were willing to take the criticism from what ever quarter it might come. And what did they get from you in return? "I feel like I'm repeating myself..." followed by negativity. These people you claim you send your videos too that know about a high level swing - how do they know? How did you find them?

Reading a book does not make you Ted Williams. In fact swinging a bat exactly like Ted Williams won't make you Ted Williams.

Hitting a baseball with a bat is the hardest thing to do in sports. It takes every cell in the human body to do it well. Nothing is "along for the ride" - which is yet another stupid cue/mantra attempting to reduce the incredibly difficult into a bumper sticker. For any one to claim to have "The Answer" is nothing more than arrogance born of stupidity. The most anyone can say is "This is what works for me" - in this place, at this time, against these people.

You didn't even understand what stride was and you have all the answers? Son, you don't even know the question. Your "arguments" are easily destroyed - might ask yourself why it doesn't happen every time you post.

The baseball gods are very good at slamming down the arrogant. Humility is a virtue.
Low FinishLow Finish500+ posts
I have never said I have all the answers. Nobody except God himself has all the answers. I believe what I believe because I watch video, and then I swing the bat to make sure my assertions work/ make sense. If it doesn't, I don't keep propagating it. If they do, I believe in it.

I am not the nicest person. I tell it like it is. If you have a problem with that, I'm sorry. I have never said "change it now or you will fail". I have said "This works now, but it won't work X number of years down the road". Again, if you take issue with this, I'm sorry.

I look at video. I'd rather a kid fail and try over and over again to get it right (like I do) than lie to the kid about how he's doing. However, I would say "You may not be doing this right, but you are doing XYZ right". If I come across as caustic or cruel while doing so, I apologize, but that's the nature of my personality.

I will now be taking a self-imposed 1 week ban from this site. I will still answer any PMs, but I will not post.
WalawalaWalawala100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Low Finish:
quote:
Originally posted by NDD:
Look up the definition of the word stride.

Of course they are coiling and uncoiling. They are also striding. It doesn't have to be an "either/or" proposition. There are all kinds of rotational and linear movements in a good swing - what difference does that make?

You are either denying your eyes or don't know what the word stride means.

Before we go any further, are you going to tell eaglecoach you were wrong about hitting off the heel drop without picking the front foot all the way off the ground is "bad" or are you going to leave that bad information out there?


If you can provide me with a video of a player who does not pick his foot up off the ground, then yes. Read Dixon's The Exceptional Player.

The coil makes the move forward happen. It is a reach with the front foot. I want my coil and stretch to stay in my back hip. The swing shifts my weight. I do not stride to 50-50 balance.

Walawala, please look at this video of Pujols



Is he not reaching with his front leg?


His foot goes forward because his body is going forward. Not the other way around. If you have a video analysis software program you can put a dot where his front foot starts and where it ends up and also a dot on his belt buckle. They both go forward about 3 inches from stance to launch position.

I would not call that a "reach". I would define a reach as going forward with the front foot while the body stays where it started.
N NDD100+ posts
Yes they do, but not at the same time. He doesn't transfer his weight until foot plant. He is striding.

His foot goes forward to prepare for the body going forward. Then as the weight transfer (very small) ends and the rotation begins (almost simultaneously) he has the front leg planted as a post around which to rotate. Also, the foot is part of the body, none of this happens in isolation - it is all linked together.

It is not absolutely necessary to go "back" before going forward. In fact Pujols doesn't in this video. He is in a forward-center set up to begin with. What he is actually doing is a bit of a vertical load on several levels.

A hitter can start loaded and simply drop the heel and turn - very simple, very effective - not easy.
W wogdoggy500+ posts
dixon explains forward by turning very well.williams book just happens to have the same stuff in different words.williams never talked about the arms in the swing but stressed hand **** and hip **** exclusively.arms really do not generate the bat speed.when you read the williams book you'll realize the correct way to use the lower jalf,,then you could watch videos to confirm it.you load while you are going forward..thats HUGE..you dont sit back loaded and coiled and then unleash..most hitters do the latter.I noticed the lack of arms when i saw albert hit a high pitch in slo motion just by turning his hands ..the arms do not power the bat.Get the book or books

you are cocking your hips as you stride and it's so important to get that right.
its a pendulum action,a metronome-move countermove.you go back and then you come forward.you dont start back there,and you dont start your swing with your hip cocked
Last edited by wogdoggy
W wogdoggy500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by wogdoggy:
dixon explains forward by turning very well.williams book just happens to have the same stuff in different words.williams never talked about the arms in the swing but stressed hand **** and hip **** exclusively.arms really do not generate the bat speed.when you read the williams book you'll realize the correct way to use the lower jalf,,then you could watch videos to confirm it.you load while you are going forward..thats HUGE..you dont sit back loaded and coiled and then unleash..most hitters do the latter.I noticed the lack of arms when i saw albert hit a high pitch in slo motion just by turning his hands ..the arms do not power the bat.Get the book or books

you are cocking your hips as you stride and it's so important to get that right.
its a pendulum action,a metronome-move countermove.you go back and then you come forward.you dont start back there,and you dont start your swing with your hip cocked



sorry ndd ted doesnt agree with you,

battling tops game from the 60's which top has more power the one that sits there loaded up and doesnt move OR the top that goes forward while turning.you just dont wind it all back and let loose.
N NDD100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by wogdoggy:
sorry ndd ted doesnt agree with you,

battling tops game from the 60's which top has more power the one that sits there loaded up and doesnt move OR the top that goes forward while turning.you just dont wind it all back and let loose.
You quoted yourself.

Your interpretation of what Williams was saying doesn't agree me perhaps (although that it open for debate), did you ever discuss it with him?

Nowhere did I say Ted Williams did it nor did I say anybody else should. I simply said it will work because I've seen it work.

Nor did Ted Williams ever say his way was the only way.
W wogdoggy500+ posts
I'm not saying its the only way,,but i will tell you this,when your kid goes to a few college workout camps etc..the last few kids they keep around are the kids that have proper hip load and hand action.ESPECIALLY now that the bbcor bat is required.You cant arm the ball anymore.theres a right way and more effecient way to do everything.did I ever discuss it with him?,,thats beautiful..a great response says alot about you..can you read and understand something as SIMPLE as the QUOTED text right from the book that I posted above?I'm through good luck to you!
N NDD100+ posts
I thought it was the "Indian not the arrow"?

"My Kid" plays against college players all summer long. He's been holding his own since he was a freshman. Some days better than others.

I never heard of anyone being cut from a "college workout camp". Around here they keep all the kids that paid until the camp is over. Is it different in Illinois? I realize I'm stupid, but are hands/hip loading more important than how one unloads into the ball? If so, why?

Yes, I can read. And I can understand that the written word is insufficient to convey all the information necessary in the swing process of a truly great hitter. A process that is as much art as it is science at that level. At some point, fairly early on, one must put down the book and pick up the bat. One much stop worrying about hands (very troublesome appendages those), whether one is rotating or linearing, squishing the bug or coiling/uncoiling - quit worrying.



And play The Game.


PS - Don't give up on me, I'm trying to learn.
Last edited by NDD
W wogdoggy500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by NDD:
I thought it was the "Indian not the arrow"?

"My Kid" plays against college players all summer long. He's been holding his own since he was a freshman. Some days better than others.

I never heard of anyone being cut from a "college workout camp". Around here they keep all the kids that paid until the camp is over. Is it different in Illinois? I realize I'm stupid, but are hands/hip loading more important than how one unloads into the ball? If so, why?

Yes, I can read. And I can understand that the written word is insufficient to convey all the information necessary in the swing process of a truly great hitter. A process that is as much art as it is science at that level. At some point, fairly early on, one must put down the book and pick up the bat. One much stop worrying about hands (very troublesome appendages those), whether one is rotating or linearing, squishing the bug or coiling/uncoiling - quit worrying.



And play The Game.


PS - Don't give up on me, I'm trying to learn.


they dont get cut from the camp they just dont get asked to play at the school.why go to the schools work out and not want a shot at making the team,The bats have been dumbed down,the college coaches i talk to are looking for players that dont use their arms to drive the ball.The old bats gave the bigger boppers an advantage.the bbcor are like swinging wood.You need hip **** and hand **** with a running start to hit with wood unles you are just a brute.the coach dindled it down from 40 guys to 3 at the end.the last three ALL had something in common they did well...hip **** and whip that created bat speed and hand adjustibility.College coaches re looking for pitchers and speed.they arent going to clog up the bases with slow guys.the bat changed the way they recruit SOMEWHAT..
As far as picking up a bat ,,thats funny too.I've probably put more bats together with screw and electrical tape than you've taken swings.BUY THE BOOK..or read my post above,,put the bat in your hand and tell me what doesnt feel right..listen nobody's WORRYING..If you wanna squish bugs and un coil the wrong way or spin..be my guest.remeber to look up that stats and see how many Little leaguers make it to play in high school and then college..then tell yourself learning incorrect techniques doesnt matter..some kids are happy just spitting seeds on the bench,,others aren;t.
N NDD100+ posts
Oh, ok. Now I understand. We still do it a little different around here - the camps are the camps and recruiting is recruiting.

Bats have been dumbed down? So now it's the arrow and not the Indian? I need a scorecard.

I don't know much about metal bats, we always swing wood.

I also don't know what those asterisks are hiding. Or what "dindled" means.

I was looking through your posts and a couple of years ago it seemed you didn't think bat speed was all that important. "Hand adjustability"? I'm always looking to learn. This looks like a good opportunity.

If you've put one bat together with "screw and electrical tape" you've done it more times than I have. We get ours from Louisville Slugger. They come in one piece - no assembly required.

I don't need to BUY THE BOOK, I read your post. I am now an expert. Well I will be as soon as I get the lesson on "hand adjustibility".

Wait! If I BUY THE BOOK, does it come with a guarantee that he will make it to the Bigs? He's already playing HS ball. I've seen the stats, I'm a little scared. I don't know if he would be happy sitting on the bench spitting seeds, but we can try it and see. He's usually on the field or on the batter's box spitting seeds.

What else do I need to know?

Arrows and Indians forever!


PS
par·a·graph (pr-grf)
n.
1. A distinct division of written or printed matter that begins on a new, usually indented line, consists of one or more sentences, and typically deals with a single thought or topic or quotes one speaker's continuous words.
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