College Coaches Calling Pitches

My son's coaches never called pitches except in playoff games.

Not all of the time but unless they needed to, or a visit to the mound to work out a stragedy.

Why does on pitcher have a spectacular game one day and the next misses his spots?

Because it's baseball.  It's not as easy as some think it is. FWIW, not all catchers can call a good game, it's a learning process.

And they do call pitches in milb when needed. 

LOW337,

 

Your question is a good one, but you already know its gonna fall on either deaf ears or ears that are afraid to speak with the mouth connected to them.

 

The game as changed for many reasons, and one is the wealth of information now available compared to what was available even 20 years ago. The trouble is, not all information is readily accessible nor can it all be put to practical use in the short time there is between pitches.

 

It could be said that it’s the INFORMATION AGE in baseball, since everything is information driven, but its still debatable whether that information is more useful for calling pitches than a pitcher and catcher working together.

Part of the problem is catchers getting to college ball and they've never called a game. I know LL and pre high school travel coaches who called all the pitches. These genius coaches are more concerned with impacting the game with their genius (outsmarting kids) than letting kids learn how to play the game.

What is the evidence that the pitcher hit the locations called?  The supposition is that the coach never calls low pitches.  I'd suggest that they call more low pitches than high pitches and that the pitcher(s) is not locating. 

Originally Posted by CoachB25:

What is the evidence that the pitcher hit the locations called?  The supposition is that the coach never calls low pitches.  I'd suggest that they call more low pitches than high pitches and that the pitcher(s) is not locating. 

 

You’ve touched on what I feel is the most important part of the entire pitching equation, and the one impossible to accurately measure. Most people have a vastly overrated sense of how accurately a pitcher can throw a pitch, and honestly believe they can be as precise as a Marine sniper, when the truth is nothing like that at all.

 

The difficulty comes when attempting to measure precision relative to intent. IOW, how close is a pitch to where the pitcher really intends to throw it? The only way I know of to tell as an “observer”, is to use the catcher’s glove as the intended target.

Pro catchers spend time before every game going over the scouting reports, in detail, so they know exactly how they are going to approach every batter in the line up. College kids, well are in college, they run from class to get to the game, do their pregame and are out playing. 

 

College coaches go over the scouting reports and and they are the ones who know how and what they want to call. Sure they go over the approach with the catchers, but in general they are the ones who know what approach they want to take with a hitter. They also know their pitching staffs much better than the starting catcher, who is not catching all of the bull pens.

 

Finally, college pitchers are expected to be able to throw any pitch in the arsenal in any count to get an out. If they are always throwing FB's in FB counts they are going to get hammered. 

BOF,

 

You’re correct about MLB catchers spending a lot of time going over the data on opposing players, but I have my doubts about the reports even the top college programs have access to, let alone ALL college programs.

 

I also have my doubts about ALL college pitching coaches knowing their staffs better than the starting catcher. The way you’re talking, the PC is catching the bullpens, and that ain’t happenin’ anywhere I’ve heard of.

 

As for college pitchers being expected to throw any of their pitches in any count to get an out, I think you might be exaggerating that one just a bit. Not in the desire, but in the realistic expectation.

 

In fairness though, all those things are definitely goals that should be worked toward without exception, but to make blanket statements that confuse goals with reality isn’t really being fair.

I agree with BOF. College pitchers are EXPECTED to be able to throw any pitch in any count to get an out. That doesn't mean it always happens, but it is expected of them. Shoot, even a FB isn't going to find the strike zone every time. But if a pitcher in college or above can't be counted on to throw an off speed pitch in a 3 ball count, he's not going to be finding himself on the mound very often.

Originally Posted by bballman:

I agree with BOF. College pitchers are EXPECTED to be able to throw any pitch in any count to get an out. That doesn't mean it always happens, but it is expected of them. Shoot, even a FB isn't going to find the strike zone every time. But if a pitcher in college or above can't be counted on to throw an off speed pitch in a 3 ball count, he's not going to be finding himself on the mound very often.

 

As I said earlier, that’s no doubt the goal, but if you or anyone else really believes ALL, that’s A-L-L college pitchers at A-L-L levels can execute any pitch they know how to throw in any count, especially a 3 ball count, you’re kidding yourself. Heck, many ML pitchers have trouble doing that, so why would you expect A-L-L college pitchers to be able to do it or not get to pitch?

I never said they can all execute any pitch in any count every single time. I said even a FB will miss. I think the expectation is that the coach has confidence in them to throw it, not necessarily execute it to perfection. There is a difference between a coach being confident that more times than not, a pitcher can execute and a coach believing that a pitcher CAN'T execute. No one is going to throw a perfect strike 100% of the time. But a coach has to have confidence that its more likely you will execute than that you will not execute. I think once the coach loses confidence, your opportunities will be limited. As BOF said, if a batter knows that a FB is coming in any 3 ball count, they will tee off. Coach knows this too. You HAVE to be able to keep that question in a batter's mind in order to disrupt their timing.

Hope this explains my position better.

I left coaching some time ago and entered a new field, so this will be a great place to relieve stress. The game is still fun and many posts still get my interest. So here's to refreshing my memory. We spend countless hours trying to replicate a delivery or a swing that will maximize production. When all is said and done we still look for tendencies/percentages. As a suggestion how often can a particular pitcher be expected to hit a given location. Take a look at a hitter, we can find holes in their swings by looking for hot zones in the strike zone for them. What we don't look at often enough is how that it all breaks down. As an example a RH hits .207 low and away on the outer third overall but hits a CB at a .300 and a CU at .150 and FB at .180 in that location. My 2 spot pitcher may have great success with a CB in that spot and only be hit at a .175 clip, but say that this RH has faced my pitcher twice and has a double and single with two rbi's to show for it. If I am calling the game for him and I haven't realized the damage done then I am wrong in asking him to throw another CB to the same spot and potentially running the risk of putting my pitcher into a slump. To make a long story short each coach has his own philosophy. If he has been successful not only in putting W's up but being responsible to his players then it really wouldn't matter to much if the coach calls the game or not.      

Stats, like bbmallman pointed out it is expected. In my son's program if you can not throw what the hitter is not expecting with regularity and some degree of success, you will not be on the hill. I hear pretty much the same things from my son's friends who are pitching in other programs. As backagain pointed out it also depends on the hitter or pitcher. I can almost guarantee that against a number 3 or 4 hitter with a 2-1 count, my son's coach will call some kind of off speed pitch, not always but a lot. A college coach has a lot more  history calling pitches than his catcher after many years so in critical games he will likely be calling pitches, and yes the pitching coach is out there every day watching his kids throw and in games so he will know his pitchers very very well. In the regionals this year I always saw coaches scouting other teams, you did not see the catchers in the stands. 

 

The OP seemed surprised by this, but to me I see it all of the time so it should not be a surprise. 

Low337 . I agree . Nothing worse than a coach hollering out a number , catcher looking at his armband and then calling a pitch . IMO . a good catcher and pitcher should start calling their own game their second year in High School . I coached in AAU and all the other leagues and would work with my guys on location , pitch selection , watching a batter''s hands and feet and so on . Happy to say they alot of them are now calling the pitches in college . 

I’m not quite sure how to argue this particular topic anymore because I honestly don’t see why any coach at any level has to call pitches during games. What is so darn complicated about it that players, especially those who have been playing the game as long as the average college player has, can’t manage to grasp the concept?

 

How many ways is there to tell pitchers and catchers, “You have to vary speeds and locations, otherwise the hitters will bomb you”? Is it that when coaches don’t call pitches, players suddenly develop amnesia combined with a case of mucho-macho?

 

As far as coaches having confidence a pitcher can perform as expected, how is it that the coach putting a pitcher into the game no longer expresses that confidence in sufficient amounts to soothe the egos of pitchers? And as far as batters knowing a FB is coming in any 3 ball count, your implication to me isn’t that the batter will simply have a better chance of hitting the ball, but that he will definitely not only hit the ball, but smash it to smithereens, and that’s just bologna! If it were that simple, we’d be seeing BAs over .800 in 3 ball counts where a FB is thrown.

 

So what’s so difficult about calling pitches that players can’t seem to get it? Obviously some do, so why not all, or at least most? Is there any reasonable evidence that any pitcher would have less success if only the battery called the pitches instead of some coach in the dugout, and if they did they couldn’t be taught what the problem was so they could have the opportunity to correct it?

 

Naw, it ain’t that players are stupid and coaches are members of M.E.N.S.A.. Its that no one’s sure anymore because its so rare coaches don’t call pitches. If we compared the performances of every pitcher who had coaches calling pitches to every pitcher who didn’t, what do you suppose we’d see?

backagain,

 

Hope you’ve found your boredom relief here.

 

When all is said and done we still look for tendencies/percentages. As a suggestion how often can a particular pitcher be expected to hit a given location. Take a look at a hitter, we can find holes in their swings by looking for hot zones in the strike zone for them. What we don't look at often enough is how that it all breaks down.

 

Its not that we don’t look enough at how it all breaks down, its that what people THINK they’re analyzing in most instances isn’t at all what they think it is. There are some great pieces of software out there that does one heck of a job of analysis, but how wide spread are they and are they being used to their full potential?

 

What you described and more definitely happens at the ML level, but they have the capacity to do it. How many amateur programs have anything remotely resembling pitch or hit (F/X)? It takes a lot more than sending a couple pitchers who aren’t throwing that day up into the stands to gun and chart pitches. Some kind of analysis has to be done on all that information, and I don’t mean just looking to see what happened the last at bat for a hitter.

 

The reason people don’t want to look at how often what they THINK should work doesn’t, is because they can’t deal with failure at realistic rates. Too many people see anything less than 80% success as abject failure, and that is tough to deal with. Old farts in the game have learned to deal with it much better than those relatively new. After 25-30 years in the game, winning isn’t quite as exhilarating, and losing isn’t nearly as depressing because its understood that there’s a very small difference between the two.

There are some players who are not smart enough or don't want the pressure that comes with thinking about what to call.  They would rather have someone else call the pitches and just go out and execute it as best they can.  Would this be different if they were allowed to call own games earlier - probably but each person is different.

 

There are also those players who can't get their ego out of the way to make a smart pitch.  If you know you're facing a team / hitter who likes to swing 3 - 0; 3 - 1 counts then throw them a change up not a fastball.  Those are fastball counts and while the majority of the time you will throw a fastball here the next best pitch is a change up.  Looks like a fastball and most of the time they pop it up or roll over for a weak grounder.  Seen it many times in my life.  A curve is not a bad pitch either if they have above average command of it.  Another trick in those counts is to throw a slower fastball.  It's not the same velocity but it's also not a change up either that will move.  This is why you have to throw all your pitches with good success in all counts to keep hitters from having an .800 average in fastball counts.

 

Lastly, the reason why so many people do this now is at one point someone tried it for the first time and it worked.  Because it worked everyone started doing it - just like so many other things.  But that doesn't mean it's the end all; be all for how to play the game.  I would rather my guys call their own game but I'm at the level I probably have to teach them how.  We can talk all we want in pregame meetings but the best way to teach this is to call the pitches and then talk about them after the fact.  Ask them why a pitch was called at a certain time to help them understand the process.  Then at some point turn them loose.

 

Plus if you're facing a team that you know very little to nothing about then it doesn't matter who's calling pitches.  All you're doing is throwing some fingers down and hoping for the best so you can figure it out by the third inning when you see them a second time.

coach2709,

 

I can’t and won’t argue because what you’ve said make sense. What I will say however is, at one time pitchers who couldn’t “get it” for some reason were just culled out, or at least not allowed to advance up the ladder as pitchers. No doubt that got rid of some who could have had success, but its really no different than getting rid of potential pitchers simply because they aren’t tall enough or throw hard enough the way it is now.

 

The shame of it is, it doesn’t take a lot of intelligence to learn how to call pitches as can be testified to by the IQs of many of the players in the MLHOF. But it does take a willingness to both teach and learn.

Just speculation, but I think the stakes are so high for some coaches that they don't want to give that control over to their pitchers.  Maybe they just feel better knowing they are in control of that.  I don't know.  I know my son would prefer for him and the catcher to call games.  When they do intersquads at his school, they call their own pitches and he always does very well.  On his collegiate summer team, they call their own pitches and he has pitched 11 2/3 innings with a zero ERA, so I know it can be done and he is comfortable with it.  I'm sure not everyone is though.

 

What I don't really like is when a coach doesn't allow a pitcher to shake off a sign.  I'm pretty much OK with a coach calling pitches, but he should allow a pitcher to shake off if he wants.  That pitcher better make the pitch and have a successful outcome though, or there will be hell to pay in the dugout.  Haha.

Stats I agree that it's a shame to weed out pitchers because they can't understand how to call their own game.  You give me a guy who bumps 92 and / or can get people because he can execute how to throw a pitch but is dumber than a box of rocks - I will gladly do the thinking for him. 

 

 

bballman I agree with both your points.  It really has come down to job security which is why coaches call the game at any level.  That's sad but I get it and get why it is that way and they think that way. 

 

The ability to shake off a pitch should be there because while if I call a pitch I want that guy on the mound who gets 99% of the credit / blame on the outcome to be comfortable.  I don't want him hesitant or not sure as he's throwing it.  What I've found is that by teaching them how to call their own game and letting them do it they tend to trust me (or my coach) when we do signal in a certain pitch.  They may have been thinking something else but they see a call from the dugout they go with it because they trust us in what we're doing so they rarely if ever shake us off.

 

Question for you, Stats...

If you had an assistant working for you just for a few months over a season or two, helping you with ALL of your stats work, tracking, analysis, etc., would you entrust them to handle, on their own, the most complex and complicated aspect of what you do?

I am a huge fan of teaching kids,catchers, at an early age how to read and call a game.  I know this was discussed in another area once.  I happen to come from an area where most of the HS coaches seem to put very little effort into the catchers position, and very little into teaching pitchers the nuances of pitching.  They need to be taught and should be given the opportunity, that's the only way they will learn

Another question...

I just started a post about how UCLA had the team discipline to have the entire batting lineup take a different approach based on the field conditions at the CWS.  They also had the entire pitching staff work up in the zone far more than they otherwise would to take advantage of the fact that nothing was leaving the park.  Do you think a catcher would have the guts and/or knowledge to come up with that reverse strategy across the board on such a stage?  Sure, it's simple to say the wind is blowing in, so let's get fly balls, but if you have three very successful pitchers that have worked down all season, will the catcher make that call?  And, if he did, would he then know how to work sequences with a strategy that is so far removed from what they have done the entire season?

 

There was a thread back in December about pitching strategy that you turned into a "let catchers call" thread.  Here is part of my comments then...

 

"... there is a heck of a lot more to consider when calling pitches than "fastball vs curve ball"...
Good pitch sequencing, each hitter's past tendancies, pitcher's strengths historically, today, spotting holes in swings, baserunning situation, game situation, opposing coach offensive tendancies, pitcher's ability to climb the ladder, pitcher's confidence in catcher blocking breaking balls in the dirt, what HP ump is giving, recognizing hitter's timing vs pitcher's stuff, overall game strategy based on opposition (i.e. - high % FB's first time thru lineup), disguising patterns, is hitter crowding/well off the plate, is hitter open/closed, who needs to be pitched backwards/when can you not afford to, who do you pitch around/when can you not, significant field factors (short LF porch), weather factors (wind blowing hard in or out), etc., etc. This is on top of the many other responsibilities of the catcher.
Collectively, this can be a lot for a HS catcher to grasp .... The coach has an overall game strategy that he impliments against the opposition and he makes adjustments during the game based on the response and counter-adjustments of the opposition. The players execute, knowing their responsibilities based on the play or defensive alignment called...

quote:

It won't always be successful because there are some kids who won't grasp it mentally so you have to think for them but give the kid a chance first.
Teach the game and let the kids play it...

As I stated in the other related thread, I see both sides of this argument. I agree you give them a chance, starting with letting them call some summer/fall games and scrimmages. And coaches should always be teaching them and talking about pitch calling strategies. At the HS level, some will be capable of calling a good game and many will not.
I think, in the course of a short season of regular games, a coach has to ask himself if he is putting the team in the best position to win with his decision."

 

Now, as it relates to college (the OP's original topic), certainly an 18-20 year old college player will likely be more capable of handling the job than a 16 yo HS kid but will he be more capable than the average college HC or P coach?  Sometimes yes, sometimes no.  Many of the same factors apply.  Again, what puts the team in the best position to win?

Originally Posted by cabbagedad:

Question for you, Stats...

If you had an assistant working for you just for a few months over a season or two, helping you with ALL of your stats work, tracking, analysis, etc., would you entrust them to handle, on their own, the most complex and complicated aspect of what you do?

 

Absolutely, because that would be the first thing I made sure they understood. But then again, what I do doesn’t take a great mind or an innate understanding of the game. What it takes is dedication to detail and a desire to make the numbers as meaningful as possible. But how does accurately recording what’s taken place and reporting it relate to calling pitches?

 

You’re trying to make excuses for a system that stinks on ice as far as trying to teach the skill of calling pitches, and an imprecise skill it is because even if the right pitch is called, its unlikely the pitcher will be able to execute it very well, or even if he does, the hitter won’t knock the snot out of it.

 

When all’s said and done, pitching is trying to keep the hitters off-balance by changing pitch types, speeds, and locations. Of course it helps to accurately know the hitter’s tendencies and have pitchers who can execute their pitches, but its still not all that complicated and never has been. If a coach can’t teach what he knows about calling pitches in a reasonably short time, like one preseason, he likely doesn’t understand it himself.

cabbagedad,

 

Just out of curiosity, how do you know a catcher didn’t dream that up and pass it on to the coach?

 

I vaguely remember that thread, but I do remember my thinking when you went on into all the different factors going into calling pitches, and I think exactly the same thing now. If you really believe every coach calling pitches considers all that stuff on every pitch, I want you to share some of that stuff you’re smoking.

 

What you’re saying is the players are just too stupid to understand or learn how to do it on their own. I don’t agree. But even more curious is this statement: Teach the game and let the kids play it... You’re saying there exactly the same thing I do, then insist on the coaches playing the game instead.

 

In the end, you’re saying calling pitches is so complicated and difficult to both teach and learn, that in order to give the best chance to win, coaches shouldn’t give players the responsibility. When in reality what should happen is, coaches should never call pitches in games and allow the players to learn from their own mistakes. The ones who don’t learn will be culled out long before they get to HS, so college coaches won’t even have it come up as an issue.

As a coach, I study my craft and continue to learn all the time.  I work hard at effectively teaching our players.  There is no way I can take an upcoming HS catcher and teach him everything there is to know about every aspect of catching and hitting as well as calling pitches and then bring him up to speed on all of those skills so that he is able to execute at a high level and still be equally competent as an experienced HC at calling a game all in one preseason, thus putting his team in the optimal postion to win. 

I must be defective.

Originally Posted by cabbagedad:

As a coach, I study my craft and continue to learn all the time.  I work hard at effectively teaching our players.  There is no way I can take an upcoming HS catcher and teach him everything there is to know about every aspect of catching and hitting as well as calling pitches and then bring him up to speed on all of those skills so that he is able to execute at a high level and still be equally competent as an experienced HC at calling a game all in one preseason, thus putting his team in the optimal postion to win. 

I must be defective.

 

Perhaps I could have stated what I meant better, so I’ll try again.

 

If a coach can’t teach what he knows about calling pitches in a reasonably short time that will allow his players to compete, like one preseason, he likely doesn’t understand it himself.

 

So, if that’s true, you probably are defective, or at least aren't doing an adequate job.

 

I understand that you want to do everything  in your power to help your players win, but the game isn’t your to play, its theirs. I believe you teach them everything you can in practices, but then you have to let them jump out of the plane and see if that parachute you gave them will work.

Well stats, at least I can see that you are not arrogant and condescending only towards me.    Once again, it is a matter of opinion as to whether coaches call pitches.  Would some people prefer it?  yeah.  Is it necessary?  no.  Opinion.  And I don't necessarily think that a coach calling pitches is playing the game for the players.  The pitcher still has to pitch and execute those pitches.  The coach isn't playing.  Do you advocate that the players make the lineup as well?  How about if coaches don't coach the bases either or call steals or 1st and 3rd plays either.  By your definition, isn't all that playing the game for the players as well? 

 

Come on stats, I think, as usual, you are taking things a little too far.

Stats how much have you coached or taught high school or college kids?  That is a key question that needs answering before you criticizing cabbagedad about his, or any coach's, ability to teach calling pitches.  I'm with bballman in that your posts towards cabbagedad was a little arrogant and condescending to someone who does nothing but put quality stuff on here.  He's been in the line of fire in having to do all that teaching so the question is - have you?  If you have then we can have a discussion.  If you haven't coached or taught then you need to tone it down quite a bit because you don't understand all the variables.

 

Coaches in all sports call plays or tell their players what to do so a coach calling pitches isn't something out of the ordinary.  All any coach can do is know the situation and as many variables as possible make a decision and hope it turns out well.  I was an offensive coordinator in football the past three years.  I spent all weekend watching film and devising a game plan.  I spent all week teaching what the other team was probably going to do and in games I called plays that I felt were good based on situations and variables.  Is it possible for my quarterback to make those calls on his own?  Yeah if he's smart enough.  When I had a smart quarterback who could understand things I would teach him how to audible out of bad plays.  I called a play, he came to the line and saw it wasn't going to work.  He knew what to go to so the team could be more successful.  I think any coach would agree that's what we all want.  Same with baseball - if they are smart enough to do it then let them do it but when time comes for a call to be made then it's a coaches job to get it done.

Good point coach.  Look at professional football.  How many QBs call their own plays?  Almost none.  Coach is calling all plays - and the player has the option to "shake off" or audible when he comes to the line.  Carrying this to baseball, not sure why it is considered any different.

 

I've been familiar with Stats through other boards for twelve years. He's never coached.  He always been condescending to most coaches. He thinks the average coach is an idiot. Only coaches who coach totally on stats are good coaches. What a coach sees and understands is not as valuable as statistics.

bballman,

 

Its only arrogance and condescending when its uncalled for, which often isn’t true in your case.

 

You can try to rationalize your opinion, but it will still be only an opinion. And trying to drag in making a lineup to bolster a failing argument is pretty sad too. No one’s talking about lineups, only calling pitches which you already agree isn’t necessary.

 

You think anytime a coach is challenged its going overboard. My guess is you’re one of those who screamed and hollered about pitch counts robbing coaches of the tools necessary to properly control the game.

 

This one’s pretty simple to check on, but there are few coaches with the courage to check. Keep track of when the coach calls pitches and when the battery does, and vary it throughout the season giving as equal time as possible to each. Track what’s happening, and when its over actually study it to see where the truth lies. But I’m pretty sure you’ll come up with some reason not to be able to do that or how it wouldn’t work, so just go on an maintain your beliefs and so you can be sure you keep all that control.

I haven't heard anyone call me arrogant and condescending in the 6 years I've been on this board. I am fine with pitch counts at the youth levels. I haven't been a coach since my son was 14, he's almost 20 now and even back then I was an assistant coach. Don't make assumptions about people you don't know.

coach2709,

 

Why is it that whenever you coaches get criticized you circle the wagons and try to stop anyone else from expressing themselves unless they’re part of your little clique? So now I’m not allowed to say anything unless my coaching bones are at least as good as yours? Horse rockets! Sounds like I said something that struck home and y’all don’t have a way to refute it.

 

Calling pitches from dugouts is something relatively new. While coaches have always had the ability to send in signals, its only relatively recently that its done on close to every pitch.

 

As a matter of fact, a lot of what I think comes from my experiences as a catcher, from a very good friend of mine who coached a DI here for over 30 years, and a another very good friend who pitch in the pros for over 20 years, scouted for 10, and was a ML pitching coach for another 12. Those things shaped my opinion on the subject and that opinion is that its simply not necessary for a coach to call pitches.

 

My experience was that I was told it was my job to call pitches, and therefore my responsibility. The college coach says it was his job to prepare his players for the next level, and the pro coach says pitchers and catchers get paid a lot of $$$$ to do that.

 

Maybe you don’t agree with those opinions, but you have no right to refuse the right to express them because you’re miffed of the person expressing them doesn’t meet your standard of who is allowed to speak.

Man, you have a way of twisting things stats. No one said you couldn't express your opinion. You basically called Cabbage a bad coach because he couldn't teach all his pitchers and catchers all the nuances of calling a game, in addition to all his other coaching duties in one spring training. Since you haven't been a HS or college coach, you really don't know what all goes into it, unless, of course, you stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night. Haha. Just because some coaches told you something, doesn't mean you know everything. And it doesn't mean the way they do it is right, it just means that's the way they do it. You don't think anyone else here talk to people like that?  You don't think some people on here are on the same level as those people?  It's not your opinion that is the problem. I'm always willing to listen to other people's opinions. It's your holier than thou, I know everything attitude. It gets old. And I'm not the only one to say you have been arrogant and condescending. Just the first, backed up by two other posters. But, I'm sure you will have some kind of snazzy comeback for this too.

You have some unique perspectives on things coming from the statistics point of view. Many of them may be valid and useful. The problem is, eventually no one will listen because of how you present your information and how you treat other people. Believe me when I say that it's starting to become more about the person than the viewpoints with you.

Stats, I must commend you on your consistency.

Virtually every thread you have been involved in, you manage to take things out of context, incorporate selective listening, put words in people's mouths and demean the opinions of others when they don't align with yours.

 

To others, sorry I took us down this path.  I should know to check the audience before trying to engage in open discussion/debate.  To that end, I truly do think I am defective, as I have made that mistake before.

 

To the OP, if you are looking for more opinions, a search using "calling pitches" will bring up several posts with some great points on both sides.  I'm afraid we've taken a wrong turn on this thread here.

 

 

Cabbage, you have done a good job of not taking this personally and staying out of a personal confrontation. I need to take a lesson from you. Sometimes it's just hard to stay out of the personal attacks whether directed towards me or other members. I will be working on letting the water flow off the ducks back. The last thing I want to do is turn these discussions into something ugly and I'm afraid I've been guilty of that. For that I apologize to the board.

Thanks BB, but you must not have read my last post in the manner it was intended

 

I have always enjoyed the varying opinions and perspectives here and also appreciate a healthy debate from time to time.  Of the hundreds of folks I have interacted with here, I have only had a problem with three.  One was when I first joined in several years ago and it was as much my fault as anything.  The second has long since been banned from this site.  The third, well...

 

I certainly don't see anything wrong with having to call BS once in a while and I appreciate you coming to my defense on this thread.  Actually, there have been a few recent threads, including this one, where I was going to comment to you that you have far more patience than I.

No, I noticed and thought about that, but you exited with such grace, it made me overlook the first part. Somehow I've got to find a balance. I have found myself getting dragged in for too long at times. Live, learn and grow I suppose.