just read this ... and wondering how I should feel about it.
Wondering what others on this forum think of it.
CofC ‘supports’ baseball coach Chad Holbrook after review of profanity-laced team meeting
Does this type of program news attract HS recruits or deter HS recruits?
Does this type of leadership work to inspire today's players to play better?
Did this school have a higher number of players enter the transfer portal?
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Thats not that bad. Mild cursing, calling players out, the broken nose comment was close to the line, but not that bad. If my boy went there and relayed that story to me I would say whats the point. He wouldn't complain about that, and I don't blame the coach. I would call that mild.
@mjd-dad posted:just read this ... and wondering how I should feel about it.
Wondering what others on this forum think of it.
CofC ‘supports’ baseball coach Chad Holbrook after review of profanity-laced team meetingDoes this type of program news attrack HS recruits or deter HS recruits?
Does this type of leadership work to inspire today's players to play better?
Did this school have a higher number of players enter the transfer portal?
"and wondering how I should feel about it."
That tells me you are reluctant to voice your opinion until you know how others feel.
"Does this type of program news attrack HS recruits or deter HS recruits?"
IMO attracts the kind of players you need to win at that level, discourages the ones who will become a problem.
"Does this type of leadership work to inspire today's players to play better?"
The ones from this country? Sadly, very few. Thats why you see the MLB rosters filled with players from other nationalities.
Given how risk adverse schools are and they still support the coach says a lot. I think the middle schoolers use worse language personally. However is this the tip of the iceberg of a tyrant or a disgruntled player, neither shine a good light on the coach, I assume he recruited the player. Hopefully the transfer portal fixes the problem for 2023.
@mjd-dad posted:Does this type of program news attract HS recruits or deter HS recruits?
Does this type of leadership work to inspire today's players to play better?
Did this school have a higher number of players enter the transfer portal?
If this type of language is going to frighten a potential commit, odds are that player wouldn't fit in this program to begin with. Sounds like the type of player to record a private team meeting and think it's a good idea. That type of player will not make it very far in competitive sports with that attitude and thin skin.
As for the speech, it is nothing compared to some of the things I've heard. I would also imagine there is a lot more to the story that we don't know. Could be players seeking transfer mid season without permission. Could be players going over coaches head to AD. I don't know. What I do know is that recording a mild lecture from a coach in a winning program was done solely to get him fired.
His resume speaks for itself.
@mjd-dad posted:just read this ... and wondering how I should feel about it.
Wondering what others on this forum think of it.
CofC ‘supports’ baseball coach Chad Holbrook after review of profanity-laced team meetingDoes this type of program news attract HS recruits or deter HS recruits?
Does this type of leadership work to inspire today's players to play better?
Did this school have a higher number of players enter the transfer portal?
Based solely on the read, my thoughts...
The coach recognized early in the season he had some malcontents in the ranks, believed it was partly to blame for the bad stretch and it needed to be nipped if they were to move forward successfully and if he were to maintain proper control of the team. He made sure the team was acutely aware and appealed to the character of the majority to handle things internally. Based on the results, one would have to draw the conclusion that he was largely successful in his efforts.
Yeah, language was used. That is still very much part of the culture in college baseball. If that offends, you need to seek out the minority of programs that profess not too. I don't say that to defend or offend... just stating reality.
Your questions seemed to have a certain inference. So, in the spirit of good debate, i'll answer this way...
1. - a winning program with a confident and successful coach will attract recruits. 2. - yes, appealing to a player's character can inspire him to play better. There's lots of ways to do so and it ain't always with honey. In this case, it was a collective appeal and that can be even more important. 3. - The coach is clearly suggesting that four or five players find another school so...
Chad Holbrook, assistant at South Carolina became the head coach when Ray Tanner became the athletic director. Whatever happened, Holbrook resigned, as it was made clear that Tanner with pressure, would not fire him. So Holbrook did have controversy when he came to CofC to replace Monte Lee and I got the impression at the time that he often didn't get along with fans and maybe even his players.
Coaches do get angry. They yell, they call players out in front of the team, but they have to be very careful of what they actually say and how they say it, and who they say it to, because these days if you piss off the wrong person, you might be a goner. I am sure the AD had a long talk as it's harder to replace a good head coach than a student athlete. Coaches tend to lose it when they are not winning.
JMO
Going purely on what is conveyed in the story, I would have had no issue with my son playing there. And based on conversations with him over the years, that is the type of coach he would want to play for.
My philosophy has for a long time been that I don’t mind if you’re just an a—hole, so long as you’re an equal opportunity a—hole. Treat everyone that same, and we’re good. Single out people without cause, or go easy on “favorites”, and that’s where I have an issue.
Intent and translation… words are just sounds, it’s the intent that’s important - I didn’t translate any of this with bad intent or malice. I worked on a deep sea party boat (Daily Double / Point Loma Sportfishing) from 13 to 15, the head deckhand would unleash the most amazing string of profanity at me at 5:30 am as I’d be walking up the dock - it was high art, and it meant “Good morning, glad you’re here”. Great teams translate, everyone gets to use there natural language and their teammates translate intent - true for great business teams as well…
This coach has lost control of his team. His roster is excessive and his unhappy players can now attend class and become students.
He can and will be replaced.
Bob
@TPM posted:Chad Holbrook, assistant at South Carolina became the head coach when Ray Tanner became the athletic director. Whatever happened, Holbrook resigned, as it was made clear that Tanner with pressure, would not fire him. So Holbrook did have controversy when he came to CofC to replace Monte Lee and I got the impression at the time that he often didn't get along with fans and maybe even his players.
JMO
This stuff doesn't bother me so much. But, I am still amazed that both Holbrook and the athletic director have survived as long as they have. The litigation involving the former C of C coach brought out a lot of stuff that reflects badly on both of them. https://tinyurl.com/3arwweur
It's the stuff that has gone on since the beginning of time that was only discussed amongst players which were the intended target. In today's world of social media, coaches have made to be defensive about way more than they should. Kids today sometimes need to hear someone use words that say "things have to change". We give trophies and juice boxes out to everyone from day one in athletics today. I remember in middle school when 10 kids were all that made a basketball team, the other 45 went home at the end of tryouts and knew they didn't make the team this year. I have learned a lot about college athletics over the last 3 years...some kids bail day one when they don't get their way or wishes, but a very few stick it out and try to improve their lot. But I do think because of things like tape recorded speeches like this, some coaches think that all players are like the ones that want to bail, and miss a few diamonds in the rough.. Double edged sword in many ways....Just my 2 cents.
Thanks for engaging in this topic, I appreciate the diversity of thought and balance in the differing opinions.
I've read the article several times over now, trying not to read too much between the lines. The use of profanity does not bother me, and hearing that a coach will chew out his players on occasion to get more out of them does not bother me. IMO, great leaders of high performing teams need to get the right people on their bus, and need to get the wrong people off their bus. The rub (and the red flag) for me is the implicit threat of physical violence along with the apparent complete lack of respect between the coaching staff and some of the players. As much as any parent, I want my 2024 to be part of winning college baseball program in a couple years; and I also want my son to be surrounded by mentors with outstanding core values. I'll continue to help my son search for "the right fit" and (hope he goes where he is loved), just don't think that will be at CoC. Respectfully ...
@mjd-dad posted:Thanks for engaging in this topic, I appreciate the diversity of thought and balance in the differing opinions.
I've read the article several times over now, trying not to read too much between the lines. The use of profanity does not bother me, and hearing that a coach will chew out his players on occasion to get more out of them does not bother me. IMO, great leaders of high performing teams need to get the right people on their bus, and need to get the wrong people off their bus. The rub (and the red flag) for me is the implicit threat of physical violence along with the apparent lack of total respect between the coaching staff and some of the players. As much as any parent, I want my 2024 to be part of winning college baseball program in a couple years; and I also want my son to be surrounded by mentors with outstanding core values. I'll continue to help my son search for "the right fit" and (hope he goes where he is loved), just don't think that will be at CoC. Respectfully ...
I think that is logical thought process, you will find lots of different flavors before you make choice.
Let me twist this discussion a little bit. What if it was a HS coach?
I have always said that a HS coach should not be able to say on the field or court what they could not say in the classroom but I know I'm in the minority. Thoughts?
@PitchingFan posted:Let me twist this discussion a little bit. What if it was a HS coach?
I have always said that a HS coach should not be able to say on the field or court what they could not say in the classroom but I know I'm in the minority. Thoughts?
Interesting twist. At my son's HS, and most others I know of, the baseball coaches are teachers or administrators in the school. For that reason no way they should be talking like that.
nothing worse than I've heard at some high school practices, BUT I've ALWAYS thought that there was a better way to get your message across.
search "Augie Garrido" or click on link below. NSFW.
@mjd-dad posted:Thanks for engaging in this topic, I appreciate the diversity of thought and balance in the differing opinions.
I've read the article several times over now, trying not to read too much between the lines. The use of profanity does not bother me, and hearing that a coach will chew out his players on occasion to get more out of them does not bother me. IMO, great leaders of high performing teams need to get the right people on their bus, and need to get the wrong people off their bus. The rub (and the red flag) for me is the implicit threat of physical violence along with the apparent complete lack of respect between the coaching staff and some of the players. As much as any parent, I want my 2024 to be part of winning college baseball program in a couple years; and I also want my son to be surrounded by mentors with outstanding core values. I'll continue to help my son search for "the right fit" and (hope he goes where he is loved), just don't think that will be at CoC. Respectfully ...
Here's the problem... Finding a school that is a financial, social and academic fit AND a coach that happens to have the "outstanding core values" and mentorship outside of the game AND a winning program AND one that has mutual interest or better in the player, the odds become extremely slim. A small Christian D3 that is a perennial winner may be his best bet. Most aspiring players don't have the luxury of realistically expecting to find everything they are looking for in a college program. Usually very far from it.
The biggest challenge in college sports is creating a culture of tough kids without being reprimanded by our soft society.
@adbono posted:The biggest challenge in college sports is creating a culture of tough kids without being reprimanded by our soft society.
Agreed. You could replace "college sports" with most any youth leadership role - parenting, teaching, youth coaching, etc. The counter argument might be that it isn't these people's job to create tough kids. I think qualities such as toughness, grit, stick-to-itiveness, hunger, even greed, are in a down cycle right now.
I have no issue with tough coaches. My son is who he is because of great coaches in his life and they have been very tough. But for 18 years he learned what was right from wrong from his parents because it was our job to teach respect.
But in my opinion this coach was way out of control. What he said was not necessary and doesn't necessarily make better young men. A loss is ultimately the coaches fault, get rid of the players who are the problems. And don't promote violence.
These days, coaches pretty much keep themselves in check, they don't want to lose their job over something they said. You have to be careful.
JMO
TPM;
You are correct. If I am the opposing Coach, the Charleston Coach has provided me a 3 run benefit with his "tirade" of his players.
Bob
I have always found it interesting that the Augie Garrido rant has been somewhat celebrated as a “show of passion” while other coaches have been crucified for doing the very same thing.
What Holbrook said (to some extent) is a regular occurrence in college baseball - especially at the JuCo level where half your players are freshmen. It’s not my style, but the more I’m around freshmen and Soph college baseball players the more I understand why it goes on.
I have seen firsthand what happens when someone records a locker room event. The JuCo HC that I work for had this happen to him years ago. It was orchestrated by a malcontent Asst Coach and 3 malcontent seniors at a D1 mid major. And the fallout was substantial. HC ultimately resigned and it took 3 years for him to get another salaried coaching job. Asst Coach was fired and has never worked another day in college baseball. The 3 malcontent seniors were also dismissed from the team, ending their careers. So all that was accomplished was damage. The locker room is supposed to be a sacred place. And that is a big part of being a team. Obviously there is a line that can’t be crossed. But challenging a player’s manhood & character is on the okay side of the line. Sometimes it’s necessary to create leadership in the ranks. Developing players into leaders is more important than developing their baseball skills IMO. At some point baseball skills erode and at best can only be taught. Leadership skills stay with you for the rest of your life and can be applied to everyday situations and can positively impact many people.
In case you haven’t noticed, the US is sadly lacking strong leadership right now in every walk of life that I can think of. We need more true leaders. And if it takes a little iron to sharpen iron I am all for it. Society is too soft and needs to toughen up. I have observed (as a general rule) kids that come from a strong 2 parent home have more resilience and tend to respond better to being challenged. Kids from a single parent home are less predictable. Unfortunately the trend for years has been towards more single parent homes every year. The result is that a lot of freshmen show up on campus without having enough discipline in their life to easily conform to the demands of a team and a coach with a strong personality. Making it easier for kids like this is not the answer.
