College Outfield velocity

sounds like a question tailor-made for PGStaff. Jerry, am I wrong? 90 mph is excellent.

Rob, Did you notice the arm Stanford's rightfielder showed last night? He had a cannon. My son and I happened to talk to his Dad before the game waiting to get into the park.

I'd be interested to hear whether folks think there is an "average" or "standard" outfield velocity. Certainly in MLB you have a wide range.

A guy like Johnny Damon gets to play based on his offensive value and his ability at least to get to a lot of balls. But they way he throws left handed would make you swear he must actually be right handed. If his throws top 70 mph, I'd be surprised. Just goes to show you, if you can hit, someone will want you. First things first!

But just judging arms based on arms alone, I would have to believe that 90 mph puts you in the upper echelon.

That is above average.

but if you cant hit it wont matter. Teams will take a run producer over the occassional throw in from the outfield.

the cannon arm just makes you more desirable when comparing to other players with like offensive skills.

Guys, the outfielders velocity on a radar gun isn't useful unless you put that guy on the mound.

I have seen many guys throw 90 plus from the outfield yet have below avg. arms to well below avg. arms. The reason for this is that an outfielder needs to have on line carry without any tail or run. The outfield arm needs to be long in back with a big circled arc.

Just to throw 90 from the outfield doesn't warrant an avg to above avg. arm. I have watched many guys throw 90 from the outfield yet still can't get the ball to a cutoff man in the air.

In my opinion the radar gun reading of an outfielder is just a way to make you feel like your getting your money's worth. The true value of an outfielders arm can only be evaluated by the nakkid eye and not a gun reading.

But if you throw 90 from the outfield with a crow hope and can use a crow hop from the mound then you may wanta think about pitching.

No sarcasim or condensending remarks applied. Just stating facts.

Vance, you're right and you're wrong. 90 doesn't make a good outfielder. The question was about velocity and 90 is above average.
Assuming all things being equal, meaning this kid is a ballplayer like those on his team and in his league. He should be able to throw without much tail. Most 90 arms tend to have carry just because of the greater velocity. I don't know if anyone who plays the game regularly, and plays Of, and throws that hard, can't reach the middle of the If. So in answer to his question, 90 is above average.
However, you must be a hitter and a good all around Of in order to advance to the next level.

Coachric, your right, I didn't say 90 made a good outfielder.

WHAT I DID SAY, was that 90 doesn't make an above avg. arm. That 90 MPH your reading on the gun is out of the hand. In 60 feet its gonna be going about 78 MPH and in 120 feet its going to be going about 65 MPH.

Most pitchers from the mound who are 90 out of the hand are about 77-78-79 by the time the ball gets to the plate.

The beauty COACHRIC, and excuse me for being so darn CONDESENDING AND SARCASTIC, is to SEE with the eye the carry on the ball.

I don't know what games you are watching, but most hs and college Outfielders throw with some type of movement on the ball. Run, tail, hump,ballon, sink, cut. Most times because of bad arm actions.

and NO 90 would not be avg! Nor is it important! Whats important when it comes to oufielders arms is the long arm action in back and the on line carry. Velocity from the hand doesn't mean that will happen!

What is important for outfielders is being able to allow the cut off man to make the play he sees fit--cut it or not cut it--- without that ability on a throw it all goes to H e l l in a basket real quick

TR HIT, I'm sure you mean to either CUT IT or RELAY IT!!!

Whats important for an outfielder is for him to be able to make an on line throw to home in the last inning with the game timed and the winning run headed to the plate! The do-or-die.

Vance,

TR has it right. You can not relay it if you do not cut it. A good outfield throw from any place on the field to any target base must be on a line through the cutoff man. It does no good to make a throw that goes from RF to 3B over the cutoff mans head, unless of course you want the guy who hit a single to right to just have 2B. Players are taught this from the time they start LL, but its amazing how many times you see it done incorrectly.

It is lost fundamental nowadays as watching most MLB outfielders will attest. Oh where have you gone Dwight Evans!

By the way I agree that its important to make that throw with the game on the line, but how many can actually do it? I recall days long ago when outfielders truely took pride in their defensive abilities (ie, Carl Yastrzemski
Roberto Clemente...etc) Today the offensive side is so overstressed. Ever see Damon make that game saving throw?

I did see the RF for Miami yesterday throw a strike to the plate and the Rice 3B coach knew the kid could make the throw because he did not even hesitate at holding a runner coming from second on the hit to right. It was NICE to see that throw.

NH

That had to be one of best college throws I have seen in a long time--- the "gun" in the outfield is always respected--it takes away extra bases without even making the play-- great secret weapon

TR,

Yes, it is a great weapon, but that skill set seems to be put on the back burner today.
We are amazed when we see a throw like that now, rather than expecting it to happen with regularity.

When I was growing up, my dad's big gift for himself was a trip to Fenway once a year (I grew up in central Maine). I remember going on those long bus rides with him and we would get to Fenway early and go in and watch some of the pregame. I will never forget watching Evans pregame warm ups which ended with him throwing strike after strike to home from deep in RF off fungo flies.

I love watching Nixon play the game, but from an arm perspective, he is like a Little Leaguer compared to Evans.

no TR HIT doesn't have it right! A cut is just that "A CUT" and a relay is just that "A RELAY". When you hear CUT, you hold the ball and run it in. When you hear RELAY, you catch the ball and relay it to the proper bag by throwing it!

Velocity is only another bit of data. By itself it doesn't mean much. But when we grade arms some very interesting things show up. By the way, even though we gun infielders, outfielders and catchers... we don't close our eyes. We also note carry, path, accuracy, arm action, and movement on the ball among other things.

After gunning the velocity of thousands of players... I've been surprised. In most cases I set in the stands and grade arms by the old fashion eye ball method. 9 out of 10 times when I compare the highest graded arms to our velocity charts... We got the same guys at the top. This also holds true for infielders and catchers... I'd say at least 9 out of 10 times.

All one has to do is check those velocity readings of the best infield, outfield and catcher arms. Last year it was Jonathan Edwards who had the highest reading from the outfield. Chris Marrero from the infield, Torre Langley from behind the plate. I have never seen an above average outfield arm that we didn't get at 90 or better. Never seen a above average grade infield arm below 87 mph. Never seen an above average catchers arm without at the very least 80 mph usually higher velocity on his pop times.

I still don't think the velocity readings are the most important but it is another bit of information. Everyone in scouting should want every bit of information they can lay their hands on.

Vance, did you really mean most 90 mph fastballs are as low as 77 at the plate? We have several Stalkers that give both readings. I've never seen anywhere near that much loss in velocity in less than 60'.

What I said was ABOUT 78 MPH. Most 90 MPH guys from the mound will be around 78-80 at the plate. I said MOST.

Also note that Ausmus is one of better catch/ throw guys in bigs. I'll bet you he doesn't throw in the better catchers group for velocity among big league catchers. Its all about the exchange and the quick release, same for OFers and Infielders! I'll take the OFer who throws with the lesser "OF Velocity" as long as he can get rid of the ball quickly and accurately and with a long arm action to produce some carry. That means I don't wanta see him take 5 running steps and a crowhop to throw it.

As I said earlier, the radar use of a position player is to make the participant and his parents feel like they are getting their moneys worth. You Jim have said as such when you remarked that your OLD FASHION WAY of grading matches the Radar Gun reading. Why not eliminate the radar for position players since you can arrive at the same end result without it? I'll tell you why, as I said earlier. It makes the PAYER feel like they are getting their moneys worth from the PAYEE. PLAIN AND SIMPLE!

Vance,

When was the last time you heard anyone on field holler "RELAY"? The bag Number yes,
but never "RELAY", Players will yell the bag, ie 2, 3 or 4. A relay to home on an off line throw is called out as "CUT 4", not "RELAY 4".
a true cutoff is called out as "CUT" with bag number.

You claim to yelling relay and throwing to the proper bag....what bag? someone else on the field is going to be calling out where to throw, the player catching the throw needs to know where to go with his throw.

I just got back from the 3 day Legion tournament in Keene, NH. We had teams from NH, CT, NY and even Anchorage, Alaska.

I watched every team, never once heard a player yell "RELAY".

Vance,

With all due respect, how can anything someone else does be PLAIN and SIMPLE to you?

The reason we get velocity readings on all players has nothing to do with PAYER and PAYEE. It is one of the simplest things we do and I can’t imagine anyone paying for it.

Once again, we do use the OLD FASHION way and we ALSO get the velocity. When you put these two things together you have a better overall view of the player.

Let’s say an outfielder throws a 94 mph throw. He does not get good on line carry and his ball seems dead at the end. Would anyone be interested in knowing this outfielder threw 94 mph out of his hand? Maybe not you Vance, but anyone at all? Well, we are interested in knowing these things. It tells us with proper mechanics and getting better rotation on the ball… this kid has a chance to have a plus MLB arm. The technique is easier to improve than the arm strength.

Information, no matter how unimportant it might seem… Is important! Especially once you establish the very best gun readings from any position have also had the top arm grade! If it were possible to have two identical players at any position except for these gun readings… who you going to pick? If one catcher throws accurate 1.9 with 80 mph velocity and another catcher throws accurate 1.9 with 86 mph… Which has the better arm? Which catcher projects the most for lowering their pop time?

Vance, More than once you’ve brought up the money thing. That really doesn’t bother me, but I don’t know why you do that. We try to provide the most possible information to scouts, college recruiters and AGENTS! If those people aren’t interested, so be it! It’s my opinion they should be interested. It is added information!

By the way, not that it’s important, but my name is not Jim.

quote:

Originally posted by Vance34:
no TR HIT doesn't have it right! A cut is just that "A CUT" and a relay is just that "A RELAY". When you hear CUT, you hold the ball and run it in. When you hear RELAY, you catch the ball and relay it to the proper bag by throwing it!

Actually - a good infielder will do more than just hold the ball and run it in.

I cant tell you how many times I received a relay throw - with my teammates yelling "Hold" -and wound up catching the secondary runner off his bag.

Actually - it is a fun play.
Simply holding the ball and running is not my idea of an alert infielder.

JMHO

You know if I were as smart as VANCE I would have a book and video out and be selling it any place we can sell it

WOW !!! I now realize I have been doing it wrong for nearly 60 years!!!

PG its useless information if your watching the kid throw. But if you wanta get some results from your showcase on line then maybe its a little more useful.

You guys in the NORTH EAST keep cutting and holding and stuff like that. We down this way and those in the big leagues will continue to say relay and cut.

When a catcher yells "RELAY" that means he wants you to catch the ball and throw it to him. When he yells Cut, he wants you to not throw it to him but turn and read the runners and run the ball back towards the mound!

PG, sorry about the money thing. Its not personal. Sorry about the name as well.

Vance

Like I said--I wish I was as brilliant as you-- you seem to have all the answers, at least in your mind

quote:

Originally posted by Vance34:

When he yells Cut, he wants you to not throw it to him but turn and READ THE RUNNERS and run the ball back towards the mound!

That is much better now.

Vance is learning !!!!

When i created this topic i never realized that it would develop into such a large discussion

Kis,

Remember - its never the quantity - its the quality.

thats a good question, i was clocked the other day on my throwdown to second at 82 and than 76 i believe, however was that right out of my hand, or was that before it was coming into the base? I'd imagine the difference could vary QUITE a bit, therefore velocity really isnt worth the time in measuring, id say stick to the stop watch.

If it were 82 at the bag, you have one of the best arms in the nation. Would that be important... I don't know!

And if that were the case, that he had the best arm in the nation. You'd be able to SEE that with your eyes and wouldn't need a Radar Gun.

Wonder if Pug had to have a radar gun so all the scouts could notice his arm strength???

Vance,

What is the big issue with you? If the player is going to make these throws for people to see, what harm is there in putting a radar gun on it?

Only a fool would deny himself all the data and information that he could get before making a decision on a player or comparing two or more players. It's a piece of the puzzle, if you choose not to use it that is your choice.

As far as the terminology being used to cut, or relay, it doesnt make any difference as long as the team understands what its doing. If you use different terms and they work for you so be it.

By the way, exactly what kind of air are you playing in where a baseball drops from 90 MPH to 78 in less than 60'?

VANCE

In case you have not noticed we are now in an era of numbers/stats---

At the end of the day numbers/stats truly mean nothing--what matters is is the runner was thrown out or the play is made

By Vance

quote:

And if that were the case, that he had the best arm in the nation. You'd be able to SEE that with your eyes and wouldn't need a Radar Gun.

Vance,

I agree with most everything you've said here. Yes, of course you can SEE the best arm in the nation and don't need a gun. The same thing holds true for pitchers.

However, we report to more than those who were there to SEE things. Sure we could simply give our grade on someone's arm. That would be based on our opinion. The gun reading is based on what the gun reads, not our opinion. We report on what we see and what the gun has to say. For those not there to see it, those gun readings might mean something. If they don't, so what!

Again, Harm? There is no harm. What I am saying is it isn't a TRUE INDICATION that a player has a plus arm from the outfield. Thats all. Don't kid yourself that 90 mph means a kid has a plus arm. 90 from the mound is only avg in the big leagues and thats with no crowhop or momentum compared to what an outfielder can use to generate a 90 mph reading. Maybe 95-96-97 from the outfield might be a plus arm but not 90. Tell you what, take any outfielder that throws 90 from the outfield and put him on the mound. BET you that he doesn't throw 90 from the mound.

Whats my beef? It's that a kid and his parents think 90 from the outfield means something. There is not one player who EVERY got drafted because he was 90 from the outfield. There is also not one team in pro ball that has a velocity spot on their report for an outfielders arm velocity. Scouting is scouting and something that is done with the EYE's and not from a stat sheet or a velocity chart.

Vance,

I think you just want to argue. Listen... once again... what you are saying is TRUE!

However, we see thousands of players every year. A very very small number of them throw 90+ from the outfield. 90 by itself does not equal an average MLB arm. It just means the kid has some arm strength. We've never seen a player throw 90+ from any position who had a weak arm. It's not the most important information, but it is information. The more information the better!

Jerry, I'm not trying to argue. However, You don't need the radar gun to see that a player has arm strength from any position. You yourself even said you don't use it when you grade arms.

Gunning a position player is what it is. A pacifier to the parents. Be Honest! Its another way for a parent to SEE that their child is getting a return. Lets take your 60 dash times for example. You use an electronic device to do the times with because it has a read out that all the players can see as well as the parents. Well, the electronic device is useless unless your a plus runner. You and your staff use a stop watch for the times.

All I'm saying is it's CANDY to the eyes of a parent. The PAYER.

I just this morning received an email request from a college recruiter whose team was in the College World Series during our national.

Guess what he asked for?

The running times and the throwing velocities of the position players and the gun readings of the pitchers. He wasn't there to SEE.

quote:

PG its useless information if your watching the kid throw. But if you wanta get some results from your showcase on line then maybe its a little more useful.

True, you'd have to be there as I said.

vance, its obvious that your not only a little naive but 95, 90 or whatever DOES matter and where are you getting that 90 drops to 76, 78. Totally ridiculous. Where are you geting that if two arms side by side are throwing 90 that one slows down to like 76 and the only to 80. you are talking about 4 seams i would presume from of's and not pitchers throwing cutters, 2 seams or 4 seams.

Brewer be accurate please. I never said 76. I just last nite saw a pitcher throw 89 from his hand and 79 was the reading at the plate. You call it whatever you want and I'll be looking for you scouting the Ofer's with your Radar Gun Too!

To help Vance though, scouts are there to SEE, (unlike one of your members stating they aren't,) not just looking at stats, numbers.

Good scouts and even narrow minded college recruiters should study other variables that may or not be not seen by the eye like, here goes:

control of all pitches, movement, use of arm, running/arm speed, hands, fielding, range, hitting avg., power, catchers receiving, instinct, poise, base running,agility, coordination, reflexes, long/short swing, size stamina, durability, anticipation, attitude, desire, drive, willingness, hunger, ambition, intelligence, baseball sense, teachability, knowledge of the game, his stomach, heart, competitor, pride, consistency, maturity, adjustments, stability, temperament, disposition, family background, grades and his habits.

Obviously, being face to face with a player, his coach, parents shows the intangibles when compared to being more than 100 feet away with a speed gun or a stop watch. Hope you have learned something you can use tonight guys.