vance, einstein. you're making a fool out of yourself. my blog refered to you stating that two arms throwing the same speed at release are going decrease at different rates. they aren't. you haven't proven anything. obviously, deceleration takes place. you're talking about one arm. put two arms side by side, same pitch, same distance, both 4 seamers and i guarantee you that they get there the EXACT SAME TIME. Simple physics and 15 years mlb scouting says its so. By the way whats your credentials.
Semantically, Vance is correct. a cut is a cut bla bla bla. But in real life i haven't heard relay in 30 years. Some teams wont say anything if they don't want a cut, a few may say go go. Its usually cut 4, 3 or 2 or just the numbers 2, 3, 4. Its assumed if the catcher, ss etc. says a number only it is a relay. Cut the cut off man holds the ball...no play. 3b cuts off the ball hearing the catcher yell cut 2 or 2 tells the cut off man where to throw it. that vance is how we do it in south florida where real baseball takes place.
hey Brewer, 18 years of scouting MLB says your wrong on the following comment you made!
Better read your comment again. Sure you scouted full time?
Wonder if say Beckett and Phil Niekro would agree with you!
quote:put two arms side by side, same pitch, same distance, both 4 seamers and i guarantee you that they get there the EXACT SAME TIME.
Better read your comment again. Sure you scouted full time?
Wonder if say Beckett and Phil Niekro would agree with you!
really, what organization you say you're with. you see mine in my call name. confess, you got cut in legion tryouts last year and now you're main hobby is collecting baseball cards.
can anyone explain where vance is going with the becket/niekro thing. it's embarassing.
you sound like one of those guys still trying to make it in 30 older baseball, with the wristbands, eye-black and slicker under the gamer. tell the truth. theres not one person on this board that believes you're affiliated with a club 1 day not less 18 years. that's hog wash.
can anyone explain where vance is going with the becket/niekro thing. it's embarassing.
you sound like one of those guys still trying to make it in 30 older baseball, with the wristbands, eye-black and slicker under the gamer. tell the truth. theres not one person on this board that believes you're affiliated with a club 1 day not less 18 years. that's hog wash.
Brewer, my point about Niekro and Becket is that if both of them released the ball at the same time Becketts fastball would get to the plate before Niekros. I put 2 arms side by side as you suggested and the ball DOESN"T arrive at the same time.
Actually what was embarrassing was your comment that you stated above and that you claim to be a scout. A birddog is not a scout.
Actually what was embarrassing was your comment that you stated above and that you claim to be a scout. A birddog is not a scout.
and my point is if their throwing two different pitches, two different release points, different finger pressures, sure they will always be diffenent speeds.
niekro vs becket. presumably, if phil "knuckle baller" niekro threw a four seam fb and josh "fastballer" becket threw the same four seamer with all variables the same they would in fact get there the same time, relatively speaking.
now lets say for arguments sake old man phil could throw a 90 mph knucleball side by side new age josh and josh is throwing his go to fast ball, i tell you what, then i guarantee you the knucler won't reach home the same time. This is due to faster (tighter) rotation of the fast ball where as the knuckle ball "pushes" through wind resistance and other variables i'm not knowledgable about. kballer's throw stiff wristed. fast ballers snap their wrists. if niekro could throw a 90 mph knuckler hypothetically he could throw a
105-115 fastball. it'll never happen.
in the real world, pitchers most likely would throw with varying (variables) mechanics,etc., this, in my opinion, is what i'm explaining why there is differences in mph at the plate.
if you want to really break it down, look at the slider. a 90 mph from release, due to many variables, will drop maybe 2 to 6 mph(maybe more maybe less, it all depends what the evaluator views is a slider), this is due to grip, finger pressure, snap, trajectory, release point, arm angles, etc. creating a slider that rolls across, breaks down, back doors down or in, "bites," "hangs," location. The previous variables all affect the timing of the pitch and when they cross the plate.
again if two people throw the same mechanically with all variables the same velocity would be the same.
niekro vs becket. presumably, if phil "knuckle baller" niekro threw a four seam fb and josh "fastballer" becket threw the same four seamer with all variables the same they would in fact get there the same time, relatively speaking.
now lets say for arguments sake old man phil could throw a 90 mph knucleball side by side new age josh and josh is throwing his go to fast ball, i tell you what, then i guarantee you the knucler won't reach home the same time. This is due to faster (tighter) rotation of the fast ball where as the knuckle ball "pushes" through wind resistance and other variables i'm not knowledgable about. kballer's throw stiff wristed. fast ballers snap their wrists. if niekro could throw a 90 mph knuckler hypothetically he could throw a
105-115 fastball. it'll never happen.
in the real world, pitchers most likely would throw with varying (variables) mechanics,etc., this, in my opinion, is what i'm explaining why there is differences in mph at the plate.
if you want to really break it down, look at the slider. a 90 mph from release, due to many variables, will drop maybe 2 to 6 mph(maybe more maybe less, it all depends what the evaluator views is a slider), this is due to grip, finger pressure, snap, trajectory, release point, arm angles, etc. creating a slider that rolls across, breaks down, back doors down or in, "bites," "hangs," location. The previous variables all affect the timing of the pitch and when they cross the plate.
again if two people throw the same mechanically with all variables the same velocity would be the same.
vance, i'm not against you. but you're giving more opinion than fact. and yes a bird dog is a scout. i'm an associate scout for the ..... .....
some organizations, and i'm sure you understand this with your 18 years mlb experience, use associate scouts and pay them, where as, some such as arizona won't affiliate themselves with assoc. scouts in certain relationships due to legalities, i.e. an assoc. scout. getting in a auto-accident driving to a high school game could create serious legal issues. my ballclub allows me the flexibility to do so and still have a career.
verbatim on my scouting card says: .......... is a member of the ...... scouting orgainzation.
state facts please. if you don't know for fact and am only offering a salty vindictive opinion then its gonna come back on ya.
some organizations, and i'm sure you understand this with your 18 years mlb experience, use associate scouts and pay them, where as, some such as arizona won't affiliate themselves with assoc. scouts in certain relationships due to legalities, i.e. an assoc. scout. getting in a auto-accident driving to a high school game could create serious legal issues. my ballclub allows me the flexibility to do so and still have a career.
verbatim on my scouting card says: .......... is a member of the ...... scouting orgainzation.
state facts please. if you don't know for fact and am only offering a salty vindictive opinion then its gonna come back on ya.
Brewer, Niekros best fastball will not arrive at the plate at the same time as Becketts and it has nothing to do with............
............
Also, a slider changes in speed from the hand to the plate much much more than just 2 miles an hour.
Associate scouts don't get paid! Doug Reynolds told me so!
............
quote:grip, finger pressure, snap, trajectory, release point, arm angles
Also, a slider changes in speed from the hand to the plate much much more than just 2 miles an hour.
Associate scouts don't get paid! Doug Reynolds told me so!
Who is PUG? Seems like if you were a scout you would know his name is PUDGE.
thot you had 18 years exp. assoc's do get paid. love to put my contract here but can't. you might want to ask doug again. again why are you making such ignorant statements. if you don't know keep you're piehole shut. i can't tell you about dougs organization. doug means (and you should know this) that full timers get paid a salary based on their contract, room, gas and meals (travel expenses). also they get paid bonus' on the players signed. i get paid on the players signed by the club. again you have been proven wrong. i love how you "know" other peoples business.
about niekro/beckett. then how in the world do YOU explain the differences einstein. it must be the gods of shoeless joe and cy young. you're the one making the mph differences statements. i'm only explaining the science related to what is causing the ball to go slower or faster. theres a lot more to it than he's trying harder.
obviously, if a knucler came out of he hand at 80 and a fastball 95 at the same time they would reach home differently.
but again, if phil could throw a fast ball 90 and becket 90 and every variable was the same they would have to reach home simultaneously.
the basic reasons for velocity changes i've explained. maybe there's more. you prove why the diffenences then. if arm speed, finger pressure, arm angles, mechanics don't have anything to do with velocity, please explain. arguing with no explanation is getting old.
about niekro/beckett. then how in the world do YOU explain the differences einstein. it must be the gods of shoeless joe and cy young. you're the one making the mph differences statements. i'm only explaining the science related to what is causing the ball to go slower or faster. theres a lot more to it than he's trying harder.
obviously, if a knucler came out of he hand at 80 and a fastball 95 at the same time they would reach home differently.
but again, if phil could throw a fast ball 90 and becket 90 and every variable was the same they would have to reach home simultaneously.
the basic reasons for velocity changes i've explained. maybe there's more. you prove why the diffenences then. if arm speed, finger pressure, arm angles, mechanics don't have anything to do with velocity, please explain. arguing with no explanation is getting old.
you're not being honest. its obvious you're not a scout-assoc or full time. i referenced 2 to 6 may be more or less. so i guess you have proven me right again. some peoples hard curve is another persons slow slider. you're generalizations from someone who is supposed to be so well versed is pathetic.
it obvious, the mores you say the lesses you knows.
it obvious, the mores you say the lesses you knows.
Brewer, full time scouts DO NOT get a bonus for signing players. Associates get 500 dollars but only if the player isn't turned in by the scouting bureau.
YOU BREWER...are a wanta be and clueless. Actually, its the more you say the more clueless you show everyone that you are!
Also, not each 90 MPH fastball arrives at the plate at the same time. Since your a scout take your stalker radar gun and check it for yourself. The same pitcher will not have the same readings each time at the plate even if he were to throw 40 pitches in a row at 90. It would read......90/84, 90/82,90/84,90/81,90/83.
Doug even said your clueless! go figure.
Brewer your a waste of time. Go crack a bone or 2, mainly your skull!
YOU BREWER...are a wanta be and clueless. Actually, its the more you say the more clueless you show everyone that you are!
Also, not each 90 MPH fastball arrives at the plate at the same time. Since your a scout take your stalker radar gun and check it for yourself. The same pitcher will not have the same readings each time at the plate even if he were to throw 40 pitches in a row at 90. It would read......90/84, 90/82,90/84,90/81,90/83.
Doug even said your clueless! go figure.
Brewer your a waste of time. Go crack a bone or 2, mainly your skull!
so are you a full time scout or not. your not. first you say assoc. dont get paid now i guess your saying they do. your last blog said they do. the one prior says the dont. what is it vance. $500 for an unsolicited or a non-scouted player i would say is getting paid. now isn't it? again, you are wrong.
stop with the man crush on doug. you're supposed to know this stuff already, with 18 years in mlb. anyway, genius, looking at a gun with different speeds only proves that the speeds are different. the world is asking you why are they different. you have not responded with any explanation to prove your point.
very unprofessional to use mr. reynolds in this blog. but since you did, just because you're to stupid to understand simple laws of physics and basic pitching mechanics then you are simply ignorant.
your owe him an appology, because if you think for one minute doug would't have an explanation on why speeds are different then you are an idiot and you're making mr. reynolds sound like an idiot to.
by the way i confess i do not know if full timers get bonuses on signing prospects. assumed they did. i guess i could call all my GM and VP friends in mlb.
einstein, if one pitcher threw 40 pitches and the all started at 90 and ended at different speeds proves what. it proves there are different factors, now doesn't it. may he's getting tired, but there are a multitude of, again, VARIABLES that is causing the reduction or increase in speed between pitches. RE: shoeless joe blog.
i guaratee everyone reading this blog that vance again will not, yes, will not expain the differences in velocities. it has already been explained to him. again, vance why for the umteenth time.
but if you do have the kahunas to do so, you will as painless as it seems, use the same points that i have already tried to get through your tiny skull.
stop with the man crush on doug. you're supposed to know this stuff already, with 18 years in mlb. anyway, genius, looking at a gun with different speeds only proves that the speeds are different. the world is asking you why are they different. you have not responded with any explanation to prove your point.
very unprofessional to use mr. reynolds in this blog. but since you did, just because you're to stupid to understand simple laws of physics and basic pitching mechanics then you are simply ignorant.
your owe him an appology, because if you think for one minute doug would't have an explanation on why speeds are different then you are an idiot and you're making mr. reynolds sound like an idiot to.
by the way i confess i do not know if full timers get bonuses on signing prospects. assumed they did. i guess i could call all my GM and VP friends in mlb.
einstein, if one pitcher threw 40 pitches and the all started at 90 and ended at different speeds proves what. it proves there are different factors, now doesn't it. may he's getting tired, but there are a multitude of, again, VARIABLES that is causing the reduction or increase in speed between pitches. RE: shoeless joe blog.
i guaratee everyone reading this blog that vance again will not, yes, will not expain the differences in velocities. it has already been explained to him. again, vance why for the umteenth time.
but if you do have the kahunas to do so, you will as painless as it seems, use the same points that i have already tried to get through your tiny skull.
vance, you're the coward. you can't even lie good. you've seen my profile. wouldn't call that wannabe status. read it again. then read yours. your the fake. tell us about yourself. you can't, there's nothing to say. we are all waiting.
P.S. Ask doug what you should say next time.
P.S. Ask doug what you should say next time.
Brewer the response I gave was not to point out WHY its different it was to point out that IT IS different. IE your initial comment was this...
Now you are at least pointing out that you are stating YOUR ASSUMPTIONS and not fact in the following comment you made......
As for my Comments about Mr Reynolds. All I said was that he confirmed your clueless banter. I have know him many many years longer than you have, I'll assure you of that.
Also, no where in the previous thread has anyone asked me to explain it. Another comment you made.........
But since you asked my answer would be this. It centers around a pitchers ability to understand how his body works and how the body naturally moves. Pitchers who can allow the natural movement of the center of the body to work unrestricted will have better results than those that have been through all the know how camps and videos. Its the body's natural ability to properly create arm speed and has very little to do with all that other junk you mentioned. Here is the junk you mentioned.....
No where did I see arm speed. BUT, after leaving it out, you did seem to get lucky and include it late in another post. Here it is....
So its you Brewer, who owes me an apology. And not me one to Mr. Reynolds.
and was also a response to the following comment you made......quote:Where are you geting that if two arms side by side are throwing 90 that one slows down to like 76 and the only to 80.
quote:my blog refered to you stating that two arms throwing the same speed at release are going decrease at different rates. they aren't.
Now you are at least pointing out that you are stating YOUR ASSUMPTIONS and not fact in the following comment you made......
quote:by the way i confess i do not know if full timers get bonuses on signing prospects. assumed they did
As for my Comments about Mr Reynolds. All I said was that he confirmed your clueless banter. I have know him many many years longer than you have, I'll assure you of that.
Also, no where in the previous thread has anyone asked me to explain it. Another comment you made.........
quote:i guaratee everyone reading this blog that vance again will not, yes, will not expain the differences in velocities.
But since you asked my answer would be this. It centers around a pitchers ability to understand how his body works and how the body naturally moves. Pitchers who can allow the natural movement of the center of the body to work unrestricted will have better results than those that have been through all the know how camps and videos. Its the body's natural ability to properly create arm speed and has very little to do with all that other junk you mentioned. Here is the junk you mentioned.....
quote:this is due to grip, finger pressure, snap, trajectory, release point, arm angles
No where did I see arm speed. BUT, after leaving it out, you did seem to get lucky and include it late in another post. Here it is....
quote:if arm speed, finger pressure, arm angles, mechanics don't have anything to do with velocity,
So its you Brewer, who owes me an apology. And not me one to Mr. Reynolds.
agree with you that the pitcher needs to know how his body works and the rest of your comment on his natural ability. but from a former pitching coach mechanics are extremely important, in pitching as in hitting. your points are correct but i feel teaching and perfecting the throwing mechanism is extremely important. thats why mlb clubs have instructors.
in a previous reply i stated many things scouts "look" at in players. i've also stated many specifics related to the throwing mechanism, arm speed is but one of them.
i have stated in many previous threads that there are many variables that deal with velocity differences, the "why." when you look at all my threads you will see what my general belief is.
greg maddox "thinks" finger pressure is important...to him. pedro martinez "thinks" arm whip and a cut change is important...to him. roger clemens "thinks" the splitter is important ...to him. my argument is that if all variables are the same, speed will not change. if 90/79, 90/78, 90/80 occurs and i agree is does, i simply am saying there are many reasons causing these changes in velocity.
again, differences in velocity occur due to many variables. the why there is a difference is because of many variables, which i've named on various threads.
my statements relative to changes in velocity have been relative to all things being the same. if they were there would be no change in speed. i realize in reality there would be changes in velocity at the same beginning speeds. i've already said that in previous posts.
again my two initial posts you addressed on your last thread were specific to changes in plate velocity occurs due to many variables. please use them in their initial context meaning if all things are the same, speed will not change.
i agree changes do occur. i am only saying that in a vacuum they will not, if all factors are the same.
lets move on and address other issues.
in a previous reply i stated many things scouts "look" at in players. i've also stated many specifics related to the throwing mechanism, arm speed is but one of them.
i have stated in many previous threads that there are many variables that deal with velocity differences, the "why." when you look at all my threads you will see what my general belief is.
greg maddox "thinks" finger pressure is important...to him. pedro martinez "thinks" arm whip and a cut change is important...to him. roger clemens "thinks" the splitter is important ...to him. my argument is that if all variables are the same, speed will not change. if 90/79, 90/78, 90/80 occurs and i agree is does, i simply am saying there are many reasons causing these changes in velocity.
again, differences in velocity occur due to many variables. the why there is a difference is because of many variables, which i've named on various threads.
my statements relative to changes in velocity have been relative to all things being the same. if they were there would be no change in speed. i realize in reality there would be changes in velocity at the same beginning speeds. i've already said that in previous posts.
again my two initial posts you addressed on your last thread were specific to changes in plate velocity occurs due to many variables. please use them in their initial context meaning if all things are the same, speed will not change.
i agree changes do occur. i am only saying that in a vacuum they will not, if all factors are the same.
lets move on and address other issues.
Since when did baseball get played in a vacuum? and since when were 2 guys ever the same?
Again, and glad you finally agree, is that a 90 mph reading from a radar gun for an outfielder doesn't mean he has an exception or plus arm for ALL the reason you mention. THATS ALL I SAID!
Again, and glad you finally agree, is that a 90 mph reading from a radar gun for an outfielder doesn't mean he has an exception or plus arm for ALL the reason you mention. THATS ALL I SAID!
Could you two get a life, really. If one wants to be stubborn and obstinate and downright cantankerous well, have a chuckle, shake your head in disbelief and go on.
You sound like two ten yr. olds with your carrying on - Well, ten yr. olds now days. When I was growing up there would have been a fight long ago and the matter put away.
Tim Robertson
You sound like two ten yr. olds with your carrying on - Well, ten yr. olds now days. When I was growing up there would have been a fight long ago and the matter put away.
Tim Robertson
Tim,
A cyber troll's life IS the internet.
We get them here all the time - they stay for awhile - tell everyone how dumb they all are - then they leave.
Sometimes - they just switch ids and start all over again. LOL - Usually - it is easy to spot them.
A very strange "New World" existence IMO.
A cyber troll's life IS the internet.
We get them here all the time - they stay for awhile - tell everyone how dumb they all are - then they leave.
Sometimes - they just switch ids and start all over again. LOL - Usually - it is easy to spot them.
A very strange "New World" existence IMO.
Well considering the last post on the topic was July 5. It looks like it WAS put to rest.
Here is my point from the original post. But this deals with a catcher and a SS/ RHP. 2 different players.
The catcher and the SS/RHP at a ______ event threw a 1.87 pop time and his velo from the radar gun was 71 MPH. The SS/ RHP was 80 from SS but was 88-93 on the mound pitching.
The radar gun doesn't give you a correlation. Its the carry on the ball thats important.
The catcher and the SS/RHP at a ______ event threw a 1.87 pop time and his velo from the radar gun was 71 MPH. The SS/ RHP was 80 from SS but was 88-93 on the mound pitching.
The radar gun doesn't give you a correlation. Its the carry on the ball thats important.
All:
I can't help myself. I like PG's thoughts on "seeing" the throw and backing it up with what the radar says. My old coach used to say, "I can tell a baseball player by the way he walks off the bus." I can apply this same thought to PG's description of judging arm strength. "He can tell good arm strength just by watching." The radar just verifies.
That said, gents, I'm old school. Back when I played, Old Buzzy Keller used to stand us at 250 feet from home plate. He'd get out the old stop watch and time your thrown from that 250 until it crossed home plate. Guess what? 3.0 seconds or better...decent arm. We had guys at 2.5 & 2.4. Cannon...BTW. What does that relate to? Carry plus velocity. Now that was easy to see. No radar.
I can't help myself. I like PG's thoughts on "seeing" the throw and backing it up with what the radar says. My old coach used to say, "I can tell a baseball player by the way he walks off the bus." I can apply this same thought to PG's description of judging arm strength. "He can tell good arm strength just by watching." The radar just verifies.
That said, gents, I'm old school. Back when I played, Old Buzzy Keller used to stand us at 250 feet from home plate. He'd get out the old stop watch and time your thrown from that 250 until it crossed home plate. Guess what? 3.0 seconds or better...decent arm. We had guys at 2.5 & 2.4. Cannon...BTW. What does that relate to? Carry plus velocity. Now that was easy to see. No radar.
Who's the cybertroll? This is post 23. With your 2,500 plus, well that, just may be...a cybertroll. That averages to a response a day for over SEVEN years.
Please remark on the subject. At least Vance and I addressed that. Can we move on?
Please remark on the subject. At least Vance and I addressed that. Can we move on?
That was a good one.
Never thought of it that way.
1 post per day - for 7 years. LOL
And since you want my "remark" on your conversation in this forum - I think I will oblige you.
I had to read through 2 pages of "I am better than you are" nonsense before I even got to a scrap of meat.
Now, mark this down - that was my 2,616th post.
Never thought of it that way.
1 post per day - for 7 years. LOL
And since you want my "remark" on your conversation in this forum - I think I will oblige you.
I had to read through 2 pages of "I am better than you are" nonsense before I even got to a scrap of meat.
Now, mark this down - that was my 2,616th post.
I've only followed this with a passing interest (as the parent of a college outfielder). But:
Velocity is almost always a useful tool, but it's certainly not the only tool. I've seen kids with very strong arms and great mph get nowhere because they take forever to get rid of the ball. I've seen lots of guys in D-I get thrown out by mediocre mph arms because they have good carry/action, quick releases and/or both.
For the sake of furthering the debate, my son throw 88 mph outfield rating at a high school showcase and got a very good grade by the Major League Scouting Bureau. This summer (he will be a senior in college), he threw 89 mph off the mound at a free tryout camp, on a dare.
If his college coaches can teach him how to throw a breaking ball, he'll pitch some this spring.
Velocity is almost always a useful tool, but it's certainly not the only tool. I've seen kids with very strong arms and great mph get nowhere because they take forever to get rid of the ball. I've seen lots of guys in D-I get thrown out by mediocre mph arms because they have good carry/action, quick releases and/or both.
For the sake of furthering the debate, my son throw 88 mph outfield rating at a high school showcase and got a very good grade by the Major League Scouting Bureau. This summer (he will be a senior in college), he threw 89 mph off the mound at a free tryout camp, on a dare.
If his college coaches can teach him how to throw a breaking ball, he'll pitch some this spring.