College program - need advice

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Welcome T-T.

What can your family do? Well I think you have taken the best first step...out of the weeds and into the frying pan!

Since you've been lurking here for a while you know you will soon be showered with great advice and will soon be wading in waist-deep wisdom.

Your son is in an uncomfortable situation, but there have been many before him who have unfortunately found themselves in the same predicament.

Their stories will soon be flowing here...help is on the way!

It probably serves no one to do a post-mortem on the bad decision here, but I would do some family soul searching to make sure the mistake didn't repeat itself. The options are basically to transfer this semester to a NCAA school and sit out a year or transfer to a juco and play next year. The third option is to stay put and go along with the program. If he is at an NAIA school, I think he can transfer and play at another NAIA. Good luck.

There are many ups and downs, good days and bad days...most especially in your freshman year. Just know that many/most(?) freshman ballplayers are having bad feelings at some point this year.

I have no way to know other than your note...but this sounds a bit more "down" than most. I just know that I wouldn't push my son or daughter through 4 years of misery if that is what you truly see.

His team must have either already begun play or are just about too. Have you talked to any other parents to be certain it is as your son says and there aren't other issues (e.g. homesick, troubles with school, girlfriend issues, etc...)? Any of these would be pretty "normal" too. I even know of kids who get to college and realize that the school is fine but playing a sport just isn't for them anymore...yet feel they'd be letting Mom & Dad down by quitting.

I would just want to do due diligence on the whole story before advising my son or daughter to transfer.

I think Dad04 laid out the options and so if you see it as 4 years of misery for sure...you and your son are going to have to bite the bullet at some point and get on with the next move.

How much "homework" was done prior to committing?

I would think that if you had seen the team play and practice during the recruiting process you would noticed the problems.

We had a player a few years back who had a great scholarship offer on the table--he went to see them play a weekend series--he called me after the weekend and told me " Coach, I can't go there. They are so disorganized"

I am not sure the hindsight 20/20 analysis is going to help the present situation.

If it were me and the situation was intolerable, I think the juco/transfer option seems the best. I may not be a good one to follow however as my family tends to put baseball first.

In my brevity, I neglected to express the things justbaseball did so well. Freshman year is tough for nearly everyone. Nearly everyone does adjust though. February might be a bit soon to pull the plug.

TR provides some good advice for others. Mine also watched each team he was considering before he committed.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
How much "homework" was done prior to committing?

I would think that if you had seen the team play and practice during the recruiting process you would noticed the problems.

Tr, While I'm a "homework" guy myself, I can see situations where a parent/recruit is overcome with excitement, questions, and atmosphere that could skew the decision making process. For instance, I could invite you to my home and show you the best of times. When you left you'd think I walked on water. Little did you know my house was nothing more then parties , fighting , ridiculous rules , and a crazy host

rz

If you see the team play and practice you should have an idea as to how they operate.


As for your home are you inviting me?
When is the party?

CD


It is not hindsight. I am always curious as to why situations like this happen---it educates me so I can help our kids

What struck me was that the coach has been there 20 years. Did he just become a lame duck coach ? I would think the word would be out on this guy.

T-T;

1. What was the record of this team in 2008?
2. Has it started the 2009 season?
3. Is this a JC, a Division 1, 2 or 3?
4. Who selected your son to attend this school?
5. Is the scholarship academic?

During my years at MSU, our team won the Big 10 and entered the College World Series.
The Head Coach did not coach or teach, nor did the Assistant Coach.

The players coached themselves and were hungry to win.

Your son should ask questions of the players and former players.

TR is correct, we need to know to help others who may face similar situations. Currently my daily time is expended with assisting our Goodwill Series alumni to ask questions.

Bob

i agree with trhit....i wish i had good advice for the op (t-t) but i don't. his transfer options are pretty limited. this did happen to a friend of ours...he went to his dream sec school, was very disappointed opted to transfer to another 4 year school and was much happier (trip to the college ws helped tremendously)

for those who haven't made up their mind or are new to the recruiting process, there is some pretty valuable lessons to be learned.......

we recently attended his first "real" camp at miss state and L8 breaking son was blown away.....we went a day early and toured the facilities. he watched an infield practice, a catcher practice, a guy throwing bullpen. he introduced himself to the coaches....they were great! on the way home he said "i want to be a bulldog"

my advice to him.....don't get caught up. let's visit several times, take in a few road games, find out how the baseball program is viewed by fans and the community.....even talk to former players. the more exposure he has to the program the more likely any issues will be exposed.

as for t-t's son.....sit down and lay out for him all of his options (without displaying any parental inclination) see what he's leaning toward. it may give you a clue as to what is really going on....

Was the decision to go to this school for academic reasons as well as a BB scholarship? If the academics fit try to make the best of a bad situation.

Can you afford the school with no scholarship if things don't work out and he wants to stay? Can you afford the next school with no scholarship if he finds a better program but they have no money for him?

Lots of tough questions only you and your family can answer.

My humble advice would be don't get caught up in how much scholarship or even if there is one, find a place where he is happy with both the school and the BB program if he decides to leave, even if it is not the same level of ball he is at now. He will excel at a place where is is truly enjoying both parts of the college experience.

Another tip----visit programs in your area --see what they do---the more you see the more you absorb and can get a true feeling as to what is happening

We have players who are ready to commit but they are still visiting programs just to make sure they are right in their minds---nothing better than you son telling you "Dad , this is it. This is where I want to be" after he has made as number visits

Thank you for the thoughtful responses. I will try to answer some of the questions here.

As far as the school and my son having problems getting along or grades or being homesick, he is doing great in that respect. He is getting decent grades (almost 3.0), he loves his roommates, get's along fine with his team mates, is no where near being homesick, and generally likes the school. I don't believe he is having any girl problems to speak of. It is a 4 year university, but not D1.

It really is just the baseball program it seems.

Yes we should've done our homework better. That is painfully obvious now. At the time when you are going through all of this it can be overwhelming and you don't always know what to ask or what to look out for. My son visited this school (after several others) and really liked the school and facilities, and the coach really talked a good game and sold the school and the program well to him. We never did get to see the team practice or a game and that I feel was a huge mistake.

I did say to my son that he should wait to sign, but he was tired of "the process" and just seemed to want to get it over with. So he decided to sign early and this was the best school and offer he received at the time (yes he is getting baseball money and some academic money).

It was only months later that I started hearing grumblings about the baseball program and I tried to pass it off as sour grapes because I didn't want to believe that we may have made a mistake. To compound matters my son went on to have a huge senior year and summer and had a lot of the "big time schools" that passed on him started to really go after him and ask about him.......too late now.....

I don't know why the coach does what he does and why or how he has been there as long as he has. The roster is very large and that is another sore spot. Yet the team is usually competitive in their conference so they seem to find a way. We will see this season what happens because they are very young and might have a tough road ahead.

On the good side, the coach seems to like my son, as he recruited him directly. So I don't know yet how this will bode with him or if it will help.

Can you tell the board what level school it is (D2, D3, JuCo, NAIA) so there isn't a need to guess or provide multiple suggestions that may not be necessary. How many are on the roster? Can you post the background of the coach from the site, even if you have to blank out his name.

T-T

If you support/encourage your sons comments/feelings at this point I imgine the rest of the year can only be disappointing and will be a no win situation.

I would suggest advising your son to give the coach the benefit of the doubt at this point and seeing how the spring plays out. Each coach has their own style of coaching that will never work for all kids, but a player can always learn from any type of coach as long as he listens and has an open mind.

btw, there are plenty of succesfull coaches who believe the desire to improve must come from the player and they are looking for self starters and/or to develope kids into becoming self starters.

My son once had a well known highly succesful local D2 college coach his sumnmer team. The coach didn't organize any practices. Just told the kids they had to be at the field by a certain time. My son "asked" the coach about the lack of practices. The coach told him he wouldn't schedule any practices because he felt in order for the kids to be succesful in the long run they would have to figure out their own what they needed to do to become sucessful. My son starting arranging his own workouts with teamates.....and has continued to do so to this day.

A valuable lesson.

P.S. You can hear grumblings about any program, once you are commited I wouldn't pay much attention to them, rather I would be more concerned about how my son is being treated.

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:
Can you tell the board what level school it is (D2, D3, JuCo, NAIA) so there isn't a need to guess or provide multiple suggestions that may not be necessary. How many are on the roster? Can you post the background of the coach from the site, even if you have to blank out his name.

I don't want to give too many specifics because I don't want to get anyone in trouble, but it is a D2 program that has over 45 players on the roster. There were almost 100 kids at the beginning of the fall workouts.

quote:

The coach didn't organize any practices. Just told the kids they had to be at the field by a certain time. My son "asked" the coach about the lack of practices. The coach told him he wouldn't schedule any practices because he felt in order for the kids to be succesful in the long run they would have to figure out their own what they needed to do to become sucessful.

I'd like to hear from some of our coaches out there about what they think of some of these laisse faire coaching philosophies?

I know my son would be devastated with coaches who wanted them to figure it out on their own. He and his teammates want to be coached. I think the best teams are coached. Letting them figure it out on their own is not coaching imho. I can completely understand why TT's son is upset about things.

Colleges campus throughout the nation…

Some players are happy with playing time and coaching staff.
Some players are upset with playing time and coaching staff.

Some players are being ignored.
Some players have the coaches ears.

Some players are failing on the ball field and in the classroom
Some players are learning that classes are more important than the ball field.

Some players feel they made a poor choice during the recruiting.
Some players don’t care and are doing what they can to become successful.

Some players will play out the year, play summer ball and transfer to another college.
Some players will quit, and never play again.

Some players will become a dugout liability.
Some players will watch, learn and be prepared for their opportunity.

Some players will get depressed and their play will reflect.
Some players will learn to become men.

There may not be crying in baseball, but there is a lot of blood and sweat.

Baseball is a game that is played by men that respect their coaches, teammates… but mostly the game itself. It’s time to grow up, tie up your cleats and be ready to compete.

This is indeed a sad situation. I don't have any helpful solutions. But....

For others in the recruiting process, there is a lesson to be learned: Talk to a parent of a player in any program you son is seriously looking at. There is hardly a college program in the country that doesn't have a parent who frequents this site. You will get the very best info from parents. Certainly, had T-T spoken to a parent, this problem would have surfaced.

Sorry, T-T, that this happened, and that the best I can offer is to use your situation as a lesson to others.

Talk to the parents!

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To bad, my sympathies...but no situation is perfect no matter what you might think/hope, they most all struggle some...might well be worth moving on, I can't tell you that....but the mistake has already been made and this is how I might look at it if it were me, and this were mine and I had to talk to them about the rest of the year...Stolen and severely modifed from another 44 post...

Bravo Catch 43...

quote:

Originally posted by Catch 43: ...But I'm trying my hardest and doing whatever is in my control

Exactly. The best you can do is decide what YOU stand for, no matter what the circumstances. It’s called character, it is hard won and it is in very short supply. Struggle fosters character. Earning success in difficult circumstaces provides you with strength and confidence to face new challenges, again, down the road. Facing difficulty makes you dig deeper and decide what YOU really stand for down deep, what you believe in, what example you will set. IMO There is nothing more central or basic to baseball at the youth/HS/College game that building character and values. It’s a laboratory to develop and teach life skills and character.

You will face difficult life situations...coaches will leave, players will leave, you will face horrendous coaches and teams...and you will be unfairly criticized and judged and taken for granted and looked over and ignored and used and lied to...but in the end it doesn’t really matter. You are, and have to be, bigger than circumstance. It was never about the specific situation it was always about handling these situations, using them to be a better human being and teammate and player regardless. Every adversity you will face will make you stronger and better. Every self centered player and team and bad coach that crashes around you because it/they lack character, will be a case study for you. If, through it all, you hold strong to your values and learn to wait, and work, and care, and struggle and adapt and rise above you will have developed both life skills and self respect....and you'll develop yourself and your character and you'll learn that most success is self, not program/corporation/business earned.


44

quote:

To have to sit a year because you made a bad school choice really seems unfair at this point.

Please don't take this as an endorsement of transferring, but with few exceptions a player does not need to sit a year after a transfer, except if he transfers to a D1 school after having attended a 4 year school. There is also a defined 4-2-4 transfer path to D1 that doesn't require sitting.

I would wait until this season is over (or nearly over) before talking to the coach/AD, or trying to transfer. To do anything at this point, besides trying hard to play baseball, will raise undesireable questions about the player's motivation, skill, and attitude.

quote:

Originally posted by ClevelandDad:

I know my son would be devastated with coaches who wanted them to figure it out on their own. He and his teammates want to be coached. I think the best teams are coached. Letting them figure it out on their own is not coaching imho. I can completely understand why TT's son is upset about things.

This is one of my biggest issues.

Going to college and being exposed to coaches at this level, I had high expectations (hope) that my son would develop and improve under there guidance. If he was lucky enough to play beyond college it would be in part because of this coaching.

Instead, he is basically on his own left to figure it out for himself.

To top it, off I recently learned that his chances of finding a summer team to play on are basically zero. The staff there has a very poor record for placing their kids on summer teams. I do not know of any player on this current team that is playing summer ball for a team the coach placed him on.

T-T and Cd;

Several years ago, at our Area Code Rangers team tryout at Texas A&M. An Atlanta Braves scout asked for my Area Code polo shirt. His name was Ralph Garr and we proceeded to politely discuss the current "rage" of travel teams, showcases, parents and personal instructors.

An opportunity presented itself and I asked Ralph who was his hitting instructor. Ralph said Henry Aaron!

My next statement was "what did he tell you"
Henry said "Figure it out for yourself" Ralph.

Ralph won the batting title that year.

When a coach tells his players to form their own practices, he maybe looking for leaders.

When a player is in the batters box or on the mound, he needs to make adjustments based on the situation NOW!

When we travel Internationally our players learn to make adjustments.

Here at Sonoma State [now 7-0] there are 34 players at practice and 20 "red shirts". There is a "common tread" desire to win and a great friendship with the players.

Bob

If the coach does nothing how is it competitve each year?
You will find one thing in common in bigger many programs, the coaches teach the players how to run practice. I know at son's school HC would sometimes find a way to come late and everyone was doing what they were supposed to do. Maybe what appears to be organized chaos really isn't? Workouts are first done together and then you are on your own.
Could be with a young staff, things are a bit unorganized.
I would suggest, in all fairness to the coach, to wait to see how the season goes.

One thing you said that is important, never sign because you are eager to get the process over with, that usually doesn't work.

The best part is that he is doing well and happy in his environment.

JMO.

Our travel team does not need the coaches there to get warmups started prior to a game--we have a regimen as do most college programs---the players know the procedures

With all do respect, I find it a little much to expect a kid that is new to the program, a freshman, to be a leader and run a practice.

Same goes for a person who says "figure it out". I mean why are there coaches then? Aren't they there to instruct and help the player to become better than when they came in?

I totally agree with the fact the a player should be self motivated, and to work hard regardless of the situation around him. To be accountable.

But this does not diminish the fact, to me anyway, that coaches should be there, every day, to make sure things are running properly and to help their players and program be the best that it can possibly be.

I just can't see a coach in the same position for 20 years not running practices and keeping his job.

BTW, NCAA rules only allow a short period of time for practice with the coach. He hasn't done any of that, or the other coaches?

quote:

Originally posted by Bob Williams:
When a coach tells his players to form their own practices, he maybe looking for leaders.

When a player is in the batters box or on the mound, he needs to make adjustments based on the situation NOW!

When we travel Internationally our players learn to make adjustments.

Seldom do you see coaches as the first ones on the field for the reasons Bob mentions. These are not kids anymore, not only did the school make a commitment to them but the players need to make the same. IMHO leaders are not born they are developed and you don't learn those skills with the boss lurking in the background.

Coaches probably see more than the players realize. ...Very interesting

T-T,
Can you elaborate further?
Did your son ever have one on one instruction with any coaches?
Were coaches never at practice?

You do realize that coaches cannot by NCAA rule (I think this stands for all divisions) EVERY day. There is only a short window of time he is allowed to run organized practice.

If the coach was never there, there is a problem.

But as you can see, many leave it to the team to figure it out themselves, only after being taught what is and what is not expected daily.

quote:

Originally posted by T-T:
.....

Same goes for a person who says "figure it out". I mean why are there coaches then? Aren't they there to instruct and help the player to become better than when they came in?

I totally agree with the fact the a player should be self motivated, and to work hard regardless of the situation around him. To be accountable.

But this does not diminish the fact, to me anyway, that coaches should be there, every day, to make sure things are running properly and to help their players and program be the best that it can possibly be.

If a kid needs guidance/help to "figure it out" he should either, seek out a "team leader" and/or meet with the coach(es) to figure what he should be doing to meet his personal goals and the teams goals. Coaches generally don't turn down requests for one-on-one help or guidance with their players.

ALong the lines of previous posters many (most?) schools have "captain practices" to supplement the official practices in the fall and January. If a coach is participating in a "captains pratice" he won't be the coach very long. SOme coaches are more aggressive then others when suggesting the number and structure fo captains practice or games.....

I would hold off judging the entire situation until the end of the year.

I think this is a case of not realizing how little a coach can do under the NCAA rules. As TPM mentioned ,coach participation is limited to a very short period in the fall and spring. Most practices are player run and are 4 on ones. Most parents think there son's are going to the Valhalla of baseball when their son's go to college. I was shocked at how little practice there was and how little coach participation. It was much less than in the elite BB my son played.

T-T,
You can check to see how much practice is allowed by reading Article 17.1.6 and 17.4 in the NCAA D2 Manual. There are specific limitations on practice before the spring season begins, and these practice rules are different than D1.

At present, however, it is spring season, and players are limited to 20 hours per week, with 4 hours per day maximum, and one day off per week. In principle the head coach could interact with the team for 20 hours per week. Note that in the fall the situation is very different.

T-T,

Thank you for starting a very interesting thread that is sure to give some parents and future college players some more to think about. You have done a great job of pointing out one way that things can be different than expected once a player gets to college. And members have posted good stuff in response, trying to help uncover what your son may have seen or not seen while he was considering this school. These kinds of stories help a lot of future players!

It sounds like there is not a lot your son can do right now but work hard this Spring, observe what the experienced players are doing and what he can learn from them, and see how things go during their competitive season. Maybe there is some "method to the madness" of these coaches...or maybe your son will be very sure near the end of the season that this is not where he needs to be for the next 3 years.

Best wishes, and let us all know how things go as the season progresses.

Julie

20 hours a week??? 4 hours/day???

I wish.

Days have gone by where the coach is not at practice I am told.

I will try to stay positive though. I told son to see how the year goes and will see what happens. Maybe this will work out somehow.

Thank you all for the reply's.

T-T

As for summer teams get on-line or networking for ideas. I'm sure you can find some type of a summer team for your son.

quote:

Originally posted by CaBB:
T-T

As for summer teams get on-line or networking for ideas. I'm sure you can find some type of a summer team for your son.

CaBB,

Do these collegiate summer teams mind if you contact them directly (like through email)?

Where the other coaches there? Were no coaches there, any instruction.

Regardless, I am still having a hard time believing a coach doesn't show up for practice and still has his job.

You were told these things, but didn't see it for yourself?


BTW, very hard to get hooked up with a summer collegiaate league if you have never played a college game yet or have no coach recommendation.

Your son needs to go to the coaching staff and tell them that he wishes to play in a summer league and to please help him. Take the bull by the horns, if you want results.