College Project (BBCOR V BESR) Opinions

Ohio,
Welcome to the site. I hope that your brother has recovered.
This topic has been discussed at great length on this site and, in addition to the responses you will get here, you can also search archives for an abundance of dialog for your project.
Here in California, we have two years of BBCOR under our belt at the HS level. It certainly has affected offensive numbers but the hitters have, for the most part, adjusted and become better because of it.
In baseball, one of the inherent risks is that a player (or fan) may get struck by a hit ball. The pitcher is the most vulnerable, being closest and in the direct line of fire. He also has other things on his mind besides being in proper position to field the ball. With older, stronger players, that risk becomes even more dangerous. You see this happen often at the MLB/MiLB level and they use wood bats.
Yes, a lesser performing bat will reduce the risk but certainly not take it away. Hitters will always seek out the best performing bats allowed. Bat makers will always seek to meet that consumer demand. I think the BBCOR regulation is a good one but I have concerns. I tend to be a purist and love wood, but the casual fan wants to see more offense or they get bored. While there are many on this site that would love to see wood at every level, I believe this would hurt the game at least at the youth levels.
I don't know exactly where I would recommend the cut line but, certainly at the 12u and younger levels, I think using wood or restricted bats would result in less satisfied young players and fans and eventually affect participation in the game.
Of course, many will argue that they need to learn to hit properly and there is much merit to that but instant gratification is a significant reality of our current youth culture.
If, for example, we moved to wood at the youth level, the average rec player would be put off by the "sting" of hitting the ball when missing the sweet spot (which would be most of the time) and would get no satisfaction from the ball dribbling slowly into the infield. Fielders would become more bored, outfielders become less significant, runs scored become fewer as do fans.
So, I believe bat performance guidelines such as BBCOR have merit at some levels but special consideration must be given to the youth rec levels so that the game continues to flourish. JMO.

Ohioguy18,

Welcome, and sorry to learn about your brother. I hope he is better, and his life is normal again.

As the father of three pitchers, I'm extremeley happy to see a safer game with the BBCOR bats having the same exit velocity as wood bats. It is not totally safe, but it is safer. My oldest son was a college freshmen when the BBCOR standard was enforced. His college coaches noticed a huge difference, and there are many outcomes of the BBCOR change. Pitchers can pitch inside, defensive speed and base running speed is vastly more important. Power hitters are at a premium now. The game has changed for the better in my opinion. It wouldn't break my heart to see all high school and college go to wood bats for safety reason, but that isn't going to happen quickly.

My youngest son is playing in a 16U Fall wood bat league, and I really like everything that wood has to offer. I really like these kids to hit with the same material that the MLB players use. I think they appreciate their skills and the game more.

As cabbagedad suggests there are few threads that deal with this. You can use the search function to find them. Lots of good stuff on this site. Good luck with your project.

Sorry to hear about your brother, hope he has recovered...

Basically my take is that they absolutely nailed it on-the-money with BBCOR. No bat now can really outperform another (although the performance is better than wood, BBCOR does mimic the way there is no advantage between Ash or Maple, and bat preference is now about balance, feel, and esthetics). The guys that could hit before are still hitting, and the guys with flaws are being exposed easier... There are no rewards for high-tech materials anymore (like there was with BESR) as the standard doesn't allow for it.

quote:

Originally posted by cabbagedad:
...In baseball, one of the inherent risks is that a player (or fan) may get struck by a hit ball. The pitcher is the most vulnerable, being closest and in the direct line of fire. He also has other things on his mind besides being in proper position to field the ball. With older, stronger players, that risk becomes even more dangerous. You see this happen often at the MLB/MiLB level and they use wood bats.
Yes, a lesser performing bat will reduce the risk but certainly not take it away. ...

Great timing for this post, Ohio. Fister just took a line drive off the head in World Series game 2.

quote:

Originally posted by cabbagedad:
Great timing for this post, Ohio. Fister just took a line drive off the head in World Series game 2.

Yeah, but with a WOOD bat.

Maybe the metal bats were getting too hot, and I'm sorry that's Ohio's brother was injured. But really, you simply cannot protect everyone from every possible danger. There has to be some understanding that life has unavoidable risks.

I was against the change, because I was afraid the games would be dead. They actually were at first.

But I think most players and coaches made sensible adjustments, and the HS/college game is still solid.

I'm actually happy about the change now, because it does take the bat's technology out of the equation.

I haven't seen or heard anything definitive yet on the injury rate. I'm assuming its probably improved. Anybody got anything on that ?

Personally, I believe that the switch to BBCOR bats (from BESR) is one of the best things to happen to high school baseball yet. I’m shocked it’s taken this long, but it’s about time. There are many reasons I’m convinced this was a great change.

First off the basic reason this was a great change is simply because of the safety of the fielders. Players should not have to wait on the ball to get hit in fear. They should be excited to make plays on the ball, without worrying about if the ball is going to take their face off.

The next reason the switch was a great idea is because it will show the real hitters from the mediocre ones. With the old BESR bats anyone could be a good hitter, there was no skill involved. I’m sick of seeing players with terrible mechanics, and form, making great contact with the ball. It’s simply not fair. Players who should be having great batting averages are those who are fundamentally great hitters that know what their doing at the plate. Players using all arms, and no hips, don’t deserve to have stand up doubles or even homeruns once in a while. There won’t be players swinging at last second, eye-level pitches and getting great hits anymore. Players will need to further learn how to choose their pitches. The change to BBCOR bats will finally show who the true hitters are from those who simply are just lucky at the plate.

Another concern I’ve heard about the conversion to BBCOR is that players and parents are all worried that the stats are going to drop and colleges won’t be as interested. This almost makes me laugh. People need to realize that ALL high school players are making the switch, not just certain high schools. Colleges are going to adjust their recruitment based on the change of the stats players have put up in the previous seasons. Colleges aren’t stupid. They will know what to expect from high school players with the new bats in use. Of course players need to realize they won’t be hitting as many home runs or get on base as easy as they once did, but they will need to learn battle harder with the pitcher and choose their pitchers more wisely. Also they will need to learn to run out every ground ball and not depend on the fielder to make an error. Because if there’s one position that the stats will go up, it will be the fielders. They’re jobs may get a little easier with the speed of ground balls, but other than that they should stay top notch with their fundamentals.

The final reason I believe the change is a good idea is plainly the cost. BBCOR bats are a huge improvement on people’s wallets, and are engineered to last. Unlike if they used wooden bats, which would only last so long.

In conclusion, I am a strong supporter of the conversion from BESR to BBCOR bats, in high school baseball.

I read threads like this one and feel vindicated. When all the whining and crying was going on about the switch and how it would ruin the amateur game, I was one of those who tried to tell people that they simply needed to be patient and any fears they had would be alleviated by the end of that 1st season using BBCOR.

Even though to me it was never an issue of safety, I’ve always been glad to see the safety of the players be even the slightest bit enhanced. And now I’m waiting to see the next step where manufacturers start to make bats that are closer and closer to the “feel” of wood, and people finally gain understanding that its really no advantage in hauling around a woodie to practice with. If the performance differences are negligible and the “feel” is the same, the only real advantage of a woodie is to the manufacturer because they’ll break.

After seeing the change in HS here in CA in 2011, we’re a year ahead of the other states, and this is what I’m seeing more and more. This past summer, fewer players were practicing with wood, and even fewer used it in the fall. I suspect next spring there will be even fewer hitters taking wood to the cages as the non-wood and wood get closer and closer. IOW, whatever advantage there was to practicing with wood is diminishing every day.

Stats4Gnats:

I feel the same way. It amazes me that there are still hitters using wood. Why not just get with the times and save your wallet by switching to BBCOR. I know the change will be different at first, but in the long run it will only make them better off. Another thing is I feel like bat companies are only going to get more advanced with their designs of the BBCOR bats yet to come. Hopefully they never get back to the point where they came.

To clarify, the BBCOR bats can't ever achieve the overall performance of BESR bats, because it is a regulation of ball exit velocity.

That is, unless the standard of 1/2 is altered by the governing body.

quote:

Originally posted by Ohioguy18:
I am looking for some opinions on this topic as many of you were able to see this change as well. Do you feel like this change was necessary, is it safer? Have you seen a large change in the game? Any comments are appreciated as I am looking for opinions on this recent change.

The fact that the ball comes off BBCOR bat a little slower than the BESR bat obviously makes it a "little" safer. But baseball is a dangerous game and before BESR bats and in the wood bat community, people still would get seriously injured, not only from balls hit at them but also from ball thrown at them. So, I feel like the question is. . . is the little additional safety worth it? IMHO, yes. And besides the safety, BBCOR bat make player become better hitters and better pitchers. For the college players I've observed, it seemed to take about a year (maybe longer for some) to adjust to the BBCOR bats. Batting averages and slugging percentages took a big dip. Now it seems batting averages have come back for the most part though slugging percentages are not what they used to be (as one might expect). I have not done any detail study on these points, but simply say this due to my own general observations since BBCOR bats were required in colleges and in California since 2010.

As far as "large changes in the game", I'd say yes there definitely has been and has changed the way plays are called and the way pitches are called. Gorilla Ball is gone. And where there was a concern of not having enough home runs to keep fans interested, it seems enough homes runs are produced to keep fans interested in games.

BBCOR bats are proving to be good for amateur baseball and good for development to the next where wood only is used.

You have to recognize that while a great improvement over play with non-BBCOR bats, BBCOR bats are still different, and easier to hit with than wood. I don't think the species of tree exists with which you can make a wood bat that has a sweet spot the size you can get with BBCOR bat and still maintain a -3 drop weight.

As to cost - BBCOR bats are still pretty expensive. You could go through 3 or 4 wood bats in a season, and still be looking at similar cost..and that doesn't take into account the possible use of composite wood bats, which last much longer.

quote:

Originally posted by FNL:
You have to recognize that while a great improvement over play with non-BBCOR bats, BBCOR bats are still different, and easier to hit with than wood. I don't think the species of tree exists with which you can make a wood bat that has a sweet spot the size you can get with BBCOR bat and still maintain a -3 drop weight.

No doubt that BBCOR bats have a larger sweet spot, but nothing like the BESR's. I'm sure the manufacturers of metal bats are working hard on making the BBCOR bats with as large a sweet spot as possible and will come out every year with a new model promoting that and players will try to buy as much of an edge as they can get.

But I found it interesting when I talked with my son who played at the Cape this summer and a couple of other player using wood for the summer and they commented how they felt the got better performance from the wood bats they used than the BBCOR bats from their previous season. They were commenting on how the wood bats felt better and it "felt" like the ball came off wood faster. Now this is all very subjective feelings and I kind of feel their comments had more to do with that the BBCOR bats from the previous season had taught them how to better put the ball on the barrel for better performance with wood.

So it simply seems to me that BBCOR bats was a GOOD change for the college player and likewise for the HS player.

quote:

Originally posted by FNL:

As to cost - BBCOR bats are still pretty expensive. You could go through 3 or 4 wood bats in a season, and still be looking at similar cost..and that doesn't take into account the possible use of composite wood bats, which last much longer.

The way I see it the cost is pretty much a break even thing for a particular year. If players were to use the same BBCOR bat for more than one season then it'd be advantage BBCOR on cost. But we know player's aren't going to do that, huh? And I like the idea of the possible use of composite wood bats and not sure why I haven't heard anything about any consideration for them. But they too can be engineered to perform better than a regular wood bat and I'm not sure the cost would be much different either. So. . .???

quote:

Originally posted by Stats4Gnats:


After seeing the change in HS here in LA in 2011, we’re a year ahead of the other states, and this is what I’m seeing more and more. This past summer, fewer players were practicing with wood, and even fewer used it in the fall. [because they're using their BBCOR bats]

Here in the northeast we adopted BBCOR a year later than California.
Currently, every HS player I know practices with wood and uses wood in summer and fall. I'll be interested to see if this changes.

quote:

Originally posted by freddy77:

quote:

Originally posted by Stats4Gnats:


After seeing the change in HS here in LA in 2011, we’re a year ahead of the other states, and this is what I’m seeing more and more. This past summer, fewer players were practicing with wood, and even fewer used it in the fall. [because they're using their BBCOR bats]

I'm not in California.
Currently, every HS player I know practices with wood and uses wood in summer and fall. I'll be interested to see if this changes in the next summer or two.

My problem with BBCOR is not safety or cost-savings. My problem is all metal bats are a disservice to hitters.

The sweet spot on BBCOR bats are larger, indeed and hitters using these bats never really learn how to square up on a pitch like hitters with wood. Just compare the batting averages in college baseball to the summer leagues. Some of these players who tore it up in the Spring can't muster more than a .215 batting average in summer.

It makes me wonder what college baseball is all about. I understand the academics are important but really, for hitters, it's just four years reinforcing bad habits.

quote:

Originally posted by FNL:
…As to cost - BBCOR bats are still pretty expensive. You could go through 3 or 4 wood bats in a season, and still be looking at similar cost..and that doesn't take into account the possible use of composite wood bats, which last much longer.

As you can easily see, while there are lots of high price BBCOR bats available, there is a wide variety of them that make it impossible to by 3 or even 2 wood bats for the same price.

http://www.justbats.com/produc...3_prMCFS6CQgod5lcAJg
http://www.baseballsavings.com...sBBCOR&SITE_ID=B0101

quote:

Originally posted by Bum:
My problem with BBCOR is not safety or cost-savings. My problem is all metal bats are a disservice to hitters.

The sweet spot on BBCOR bats are larger, indeed and hitters using these bats never really learn how to square up on a pitch like hitters with wood. Just compare the batting averages in college baseball to the summer leagues. Some of these players who tore it up in the Spring can't muster more than a .215 batting average in summer.

It makes me wonder what college baseball is all about. I understand the academics are important but really, for hitters, it's just four years reinforcing bad habits.

While there are several factors that affect batting averages when comparing any particular period to another, looking at the players my son has played with both at college and those on his summer team, I see them doing better with wood bats than with BBCOR. . .many doing substantially better in the summer with wood vs. what they did during the season with BBCOR. So I'm not hearing or observing anything from players that shows metal bats as being a disservice to hitters.

Thank you all for your great responses and insight. It has been a long journey for my brother as he he is getting better every day.

At any point did you find the BESR bats to be unsafe or too powerful? This may be a tough question due to the fact that there was no comparison, but I thought I'd throw it out there.
I remember the BESR bats and every once in a while I'll grab an old one in my garage and hit a few off the tee, noticing a large difference in the exit velocity.

Thanks again for your great responses and I look forward to hearing back from you guys!

quote:

Originally posted by Truman:No doubt that BBCOR bats have a larger sweet spot, but nothing like the BESR's. I'm sure the manufacturers of metal bats are working hard on making the BBCOR bats with as large a sweet spot as possible and will come out every year with a new model promoting that and players will try to buy as much of an edge as they can get.

Maybe I don't understand totally how it works, but I would think that the BBCOR and BESR bats would have the same size sweet spot - just that the BESR sweet spot would be, for lack of a better descriptor, sweeter.

quote:

Originally posted by Ohioguy18:
At any point did you find the BESR bats to be unsafe or too powerful? This may be a tough question due to the fact that there was no comparison, but I thought I'd throw it out there.
I remember the BESR bats and every once in a while I'll grab an old one in my garage and hit a few off the tee, noticing a large difference in the exit velocity.

There was never a time I felt the BESR bats were "unsafe". . . .or even "too powerful." If I had felt that way I would have encouraged my son to focus on a different sport. Rather than using the term "unsafe", it was clear that they presented more risk for injury. And while it's generally agreed that they presented more risk, the arguments are really about HOW MUCH more risk for injury and how much risk is acceptable.

Truman, is your son a pitcher? Bum, Jr. is a pitcher.

At age 14, he attended a tournament in Helena, Montana. The day before, a local legion pitcher took a line drive off the head with a BESR bat and died on the spot.

If you don't think there is a difference between BBCOR and wood, just look up the stats. BBCOR, like all metal bats, reward near-misses. Wood does not. You can give examples of this player or that player that did great with BBCOR and poorly with wood, but the aggregate data proves otherwise.

As for accepting the risk, I can only say I am thankful college is behind Bum, Jr.

quote:

Originally posted by FNL:

quote:

Originally posted by Truman:No doubt that BBCOR bats have a larger sweet spot, but nothing like the BESR's. I'm sure the manufacturers of metal bats are working hard on making the BBCOR bats with as large a sweet spot as possible and will come out every year with a new model promoting that and players will try to buy as much of an edge as they can get.

Maybe I don't understand totally how it works, but I would think that the BBCOR and BESR bats would have the same size sweet spot - just that the BESR sweet spot would be, for lack of a better descriptor, sweeter.

No, the BESR bats have huge sweet spots, especially the composite bats, compared to BBCOR bats and in addition the BESR bats were being designed to have a "sweeter" spot (that is they were providing a trampoline effect over that larger sweet spot for increase ball velocity). So, BESR has larger sweet spot AND a "sweeter" one that enabled hitters to hit the ball farther no matter where the ball contacted the bat.

This is why getting rid of BESRs and going to BBCOR bats has also changed the way pitchers pitch to the hitters. With BESR in hitter's hand pitching tended to be away, away, way-away. Now pitchers are learning to pitch inside again without so much worry of a ball be jacked out off the handle of a bat, if you know what I mean.

It was always kind of funny with my son would enter the summer season and when playing competitions using wood bats he would be breaking them often because he was used to hitting and getting hits when striking the ball either above the hands or off the end of his BESR composite bat. He never really had to concentrate on getting the "barrel" of the bat on the ball except when using wood. Now with a couple of years of BBCOR and wood bat playing, this last summer of all wood bat play he only broke one bat in 124 AB's with almost all the pitchers throwing 90+ fast balls.

quote:

Originally posted by Bum:
Truman, is your son a pitcher? Bum, Jr. is a pitcher.

At age 14, he attended a tournament in Helena, Montana. The day before, a local legion pitcher took a line drive off the head with a BESR bat and died on the spot.

If you don't think there is a difference between BBCOR and wood, just look up the stats. BBCOR, like all metal bats, reward near-misses. Wood does not. You can give examples of this player or that player that did great with BBCOR and poorly with wood, but the aggregate data proves otherwise.

As for accepting the risk, I can only say I am thankful college is behind Bum, Jr.

Yes, my son was/is a pitcher (was drafted as a pitcher). . . actually, a two way player, but hasn't pitched in college other than during practices and practice games.

Yeah, that really a tragic thing to have that kind of incident. I don't know how one quantifies whether a BESR bat was really the difference than a wood bat in that particular instance??? I know of a little league boy/batter being hit by a pitch and died. So should we not use hard balls in LL? While BESR bats produce increase risk, just how much risk I don't think has been quantified. But in any case, I feel happy about the change to BBCOR and that it is good for many reasons to INCLUED of course reduced risk.

I have indeed looked at stats, in particular the stats of those players my son has played with (maybe only 30 players in all). And looking at those stats, as an aggregate, is what leads me to say what I said about the difference between BBCOR and wood. And yes, the all metal bats do "reward near-misses" over what wood bats do. But in the last two years of my observations for college and HS, I've only noticed the reward as being minuscule.

Sorry about your brother man, glad to here he is recovered.
The fact that you played baseball your whole life adds a lot of credibility to your post. Players in college and high school now have the option to use wooden bats. Rather then just give the players the option I feel as if the universal switch to all wood bats would be even more effective. There are, and always will be risks of injury in the game, there is nothing that can change that, but why not lessen the risks. Some of these high powered bats causing the injuries are the composite bats, which thankfully are banned from high school now.

First, we’re all glad to hear that your brother’s condition is improving. I hope and pray he will make a full recovery. I’m sure that many here would appreciate hearing his story if and when he feels up to sharing it.

Regarding BBCOR, I think it will be very difficult to quantify any improvement to player safety. The pitcher definitely has a fraction of a second more time to react to a ball hit right back at him, but there are just so many other factors involved (batter’s power, condition of baseball, visibility, pitcher’s fielding position, individual reaction times, etc.). I think most reasonable people can agree that BBCOR is a little safer for pitchers than BESR. The difference is only about 0.02 seconds to the pitcher, but I’ll take that 5-10% gain any day.

I suppose a person could theorize that batters are now hitting more line drives, so more balls are being hit directly at the pitcher, but I haven’t heard anyone trying to claim that BBCOR is more dangerous.

From my personal experience, I think the biggest factor in BESR vs BBCOR is that BBCOR requires testing for break-in. My son’s Demarini CF3 BESR bat gained significant power over the course of the season. It may have met the BESR standard when it was new, but not after 500 hits. He hit a few balls 350’ as a 13 year-old, and he only hits that far now occasionally with BBCOR (as a much bigger and stronger 15 year old).

Baseball is very slow to change its traditions. If safety was paramount, protective headgear would be the safest option for pitchers. Usually the MLB is the last to adopt these kinds of changes, but apparently they’re at least looking into it.
http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_...pitchers-line-drives

In case you haven’t seen this, Sport Science produced a story on BBCOR:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxI3svB_O44

Good luck with your project.

MidAtlanticDad:

I understand your view that it is extremely difficult for changes to happen to America's past, but when you get to the point regarding safety of children (high school players), there should be thought needed. I don't believe the MLB will ever get to the point where they will have to wear helmets, but as for high school baseball, it's a strong possibility. When it comes down to it, it's all about the safety of the children.

MidAtlanticDad: I agree with your opinion on improvements to player safety. This game has been played like this for decades and while there have been few severe injuries, they are increasing, as you know. It is nothing short of a miracle that there aren't as many injuries, especially after seeing what happened in this year's World Series.

I was very surprised with the articles that you provided me with since I have been researching for so long and have not seen them. They were very informative and the video was cool with all of the stats with it.

I feel like player safety, especially pitcher safety, will be the a top priority this off-season especially after what happened in the World Series. In my opinion, this change may be slow, but sooner or later another it will come, just like the switch to BBCOR bats.

The new BBCOR bats have displayed a noticeable change. Although the game is still dangerous, pitchers now have a little more time to react to balls off the bat and home runs in our area have went down. This is good for the game because it really makes the best hitters stand out while keeping the game at a safe level, in my opinion. I feel like pitcher injuries have been in the news quite often but since the change, I have seen less and less severe injuries.

Also, I think that this change was a good base for another safety regulation, like pitchers wearing helmets. I know that that they would look goofy, but it could be the difference between life and death. The change from BESR to BBCOR was both good and bad, but I believe that more good has and will come out of it in the future.