College Velo

Kyle Boddy posted:

roothog66 posted:

 

I have read Fleisig's work. You won't find any study out there I haven't read. You have to understand, though, that his work on cadavers dealt only with the tendon strength and did not (could not) consider the surrounding muscle and bone structure strength. IN fact his work pretty much showed that the ucl should snap with the force exhibited by an 84mph fastball. You cannot increase the strength of ligaments and tendons, but you surely can increase the ability to protect the ucl from stress by increasing the strength of the muscle groups surrounding it. 

This is why I am very excited to continue developing the forward dynamics simulation that was pioneered by Dr. James Buffi. It may be possible to quantify those variables in elite pitchers for the first time ever.

Awesome information, thank you!

Interesting discussion and several good points by everyone.  One thing that every parent of a good pitcher needs to know is that it is impossible to eliminate risk.  Pitchers will never come close to realizing their ceiling without any risk.  Possibly the most difficult thing for many is realizing when a pitcher reaches the danger zone.  Of course, the thing that makes this most difficult is that danger zone is different from one pitcher to the next.  It's not just pitch counts, IMO recovery time might be even more important.  Recovery time is also not the same for everyone, but it seems to be more consistent from one pitcher to the next.  It's not just how long before appearances, even extra long innings and rain delays can cause a problem.

I will say this, my son had TJ surgery.  I would be the last person to take it lightly.  However, my biggest fear when he was pitching was not arm or elbow surgery.  My biggest fear for him or any other pitcher is the line drive back at the head.

Our studies showed there was a large amount of over usage and lack of recovery time at the youngest age groups.  Using the best possible arm to win championships.  It is one of the major reasons we decided to get involved in younger ages.  They are going to play with or without us, we think we can make it a bit better and safer and educate a lot of people about arm risk.

Year around baseball is also a hot topic.  Our studies show it is most popular in California and Latin America.  It is going to happen with or without us.  It is interesting that California and Latin America produce by far the most Major League players. 

Specialization has also been talked about as a problem.  I like two or three sport athletes, especially among the younger kids.  But when it comes to HS age kids there is no actual proof that three sport athletes are better than one sport athletes.  For every three sport athlete that makes it to the big leagues, I can name one that specialized.  That again would include most of the Latin players and many from warm weather climates.  The same thing holds true for other sports.  The number of NBA players that specialized is amazing. 

Still, I understand that the topic is pitching and I do believe nearly every pitcher needs a period off from throwing.  However, even if that period is three months why would it need to be the same three months for everyone?  I mean some are taking Aug, Sept, Oct, off.  Others are taking Oct, Nov, Dec off.  And some are taking Nov, Dec, Jan, off.  Others might actually need to throw during these months because they spent time recovering from  injury during the actual season.  Point is, the time table isn't the same for everyone.  Not much of anything is the same for everyone. 

IMO PitchSmart guidelines help a lot because they can eliminate any of the gross over usage and lack of recovery time issues.  I think it is great that all these HS state associations are establishing pitch count rules.  IMO it is a step in the right direction.  We need to see how much it helps. Still though, there are some pitchers that run out of gas after 50 pitches rather than the pitch count limit.  Others might be 100 or more, so it is impossible to come up with rules that fit every pitcher. But you have to start somewhere.

Steve A, Thanks for the kind remarks.  And I do enjoy hearing other opinions, whether I agree with them or not.  IMO there is still a lot to learn. 

Regarding time off from throwing year round (for pitchers). I would say I have read about everything I can get my hands on regarding opinion on this. I came to the conclusion that I would follow the consensus suggestion of most medical experts that a 2-3 month overhand throwing shut down is the way to go for youth pitchers. Physically, the info suggests they need time for those plates to develop, grow & heal without continuous stress from overhand throwing. These young guys also need a mental break from year round baseball anyway. So this is what we have done (mine is now 14).

This is what I always did in the Winter for my entire career. Shut it down from Sept-Oct until sometime in January. My arm was relatively dead coming back in January & it took me 2 full months to crank it back up with soreness & extended recovery between etc but I was relatively injury free.

I recently read an interview with Max Scherzer on this topic. He has been perhaps the most durable quality pitcher in MLB for the last 10 years. He basically says he used to shut it down as well, but about 10 years ago started to keep throwing (not max effort pitching) about 2 X per week in the offseason. Religiously, along with his training routine (heavy weights etc) He claims he has no lag time & no arm fatigue or soreness leading up to or during the season & it certainly has not cut him short at the end of the season.

I guess the point is that there is no set formula & you need to keep an open mind (I know I do!). What he says & does makes perfect sense given his experience, body & arm. If you would have asked me 3 weeks ago would I consider year round throwing I would have completely ruled it out. Now, I believe, depending on the physical maturity of the pitcher, a consideration of this plan is very reasonable & perhaps even the way to go for many.  

PS: His offseason throwing may be simply playing catch, throwing a football or in one case throwing rocks into a lake during vacation! We are not talking about bullpens & max distance long toss etc.

PGStaff posted:

I will say this, my son had TJ surgery.  I would be the last person to take it lightly.  However, my biggest fear when he was pitching was not arm or elbow surgery.  My biggest fear for him or any other pitcher is the line drive back at the head.

 

That is, indeed, the biggest concern.  Scary stuff.  http://www.12up.com/posts/4989...ne-drive?a_aid=41089

In Wisconsin, any extended shut down period for throwing needs to be before it snows.  If you think you can keep a teenage boy from throwing snowballs frequently and with max velocity you are plain outta your mind!!!!

PGStaff posted:

Interesting discussion and several good points by everyone.  One thing that every parent of a good pitcher needs to know is that it is impossible to eliminate risk.  Pitchers will never come close to realizing their ceiling without any risk.  Possibly the most difficult thing for many is realizing when a pitcher reaches the danger zone.  Of course, the thing that makes this most difficult is that danger zone is different from one pitcher to the next.  It's not just pitch counts, IMO recovery time might be even more important.  Recovery time is also not the same for everyone, but it seems to be more consistent from one pitcher to the next.  It's not just how long before appearances, even extra long innings and rain delays can cause a problem. 

Very true.  When it comes to mitigating risk, you can take two approaches: reduce the SEVERITY of an event, or reduce the LIKELIHOOD of the event occurring.

Baseball has made advances on reducing the severity - TJ surgery has come a long way, and the recovery protocols are getting pitchers back to previous capabilities (usually).  UCL tears don't necessarily end a career.

However, I think we have a long way to go in reducing the likelihood.  We just don't know who will tear their UCL and when.  Pitch counts could be a start, but only time will tell.  I think we have MILES to go to make any advances at reducing the likelihood, but those advances could have big impacts in reducing the risk.

That's along the lines of what I was talking about in my previous post.  I'd like to understand leading indicators, so we can understand and classify an individual's risk, and engage specific protocols to reduce that individual's likelihood.  Wishful thinking?  I'm inclined to think there are enough smart people working on it that we'll eventually get there.