He looks too easy to me sometimes. The arm speed seems not quick enough. Any help is welcome.
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quote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CcgywyEdrlk
Balance and consistent delivery
Appears to have an arm slot he can reproduce
Transfers force well.
Superstar?
It appears that his stride could be a little longer. He is opening before foot plant and his shoulders appear to turn with his hips. A longer stride, waiting until right at foot plant to turn the hips, then shoulders to get some hip shoulder separation, meaning hips turn first then the shoulders, can get him more velocity.
quote:Originally posted by kbat2012:quote:Originally posted by MTS:
It appears that his stride could be a little longer. He is opening before foot plant and his shoulders appear to turn with his hips. A longer stride, waiting until right at foot plant to turn the hips, then shoulders to get some hip shoulder separation, meaning hips turn first then the shoulders, can get him more velocity.
Thank you, I wish him get drafted this year. A little bit loger stride, he may hit 100 Mph, do you think so?
He also needs to keep shoulders closed/ facing 3rd base until foot lands. How hard does he throw now?
quote:Originally posted by kbat2012:quote:Originally posted by MTS:
He also needs to keep shoulders closed/ facing 3rd base until foot lands. How hard does he throw now?
Fastball top at 96mph, cruise at 91-93mph. One nasty curveball is his strike out pitch.
If he is throwing that hard you shouldn't be talking to us. I think Deemac or Beemac are pro scouts. I'd listen to them.
Arms works nice , Bullpen mound needs help!
quote:If he is throwing that hard you shouldn't be talking to us. I think Deemac or Beemac are pro scouts. I'd listen to them.
AND that BP mound needs A Bunch of work....
I would find it difficult to make a suggestion here (Not that I would), he very obviously isn't working full effort. He has a good solid athletic frame and appears well conditioned. You say that you don't know that much, he's had some good coaching or if he's gotten to this stage by shear desire...yow! I would bet at full speed his stride lengthens a bit. How old is he? At those speeds I don't think trying for more velocity is where it's at. If anything, and again he's not at full speed, just polish him up, smooth him out and he'll pop up a couple more mph. BUT if it isn't broke don't let a guru break it...this kid has some stuff going, educate yourself, learn where his path needs to go, YOU work in his best interest and let him rise to where his desire will take him...I'm sure folks will want to hitch a ride on his train..so to speak (Latch on to a winner for their own purposes).
Has he been looked at by many colleges? Or is that a college jersey he's wearing?
The elbow-y arm action is the probably my favorite part of his delivery. Other than that, I think he could speed up his delivery for the faster whip of the arm (ala guys like Billy Wagner or Tim Lincecum). I don't see much of intent to throw hard from him... well I hope he really is throwing 91~93mph though
He looks pretty good, but as others have said, it's hard to make comments on a throw that isn't at game speed or 100% effort.
With any high level throw, the more efficient/better you are at loading and unloading, the more velocity you will have.
Topping out at 96...I would say he's pretty good at both.
With any high level throw, the more efficient/better you are at loading and unloading, the more velocity you will have.
Topping out at 96...I would say he's pretty good at both.
quote:Originally posted by MTS:
He also needs to keep shoulders closed/ facing 3rd base until foot lands....
It appears that his stride could be a little longer.
He is opening before foot plant and
his shoulders appear to turn with his hips.
That's quite a few, five to be exact, discrepancies. Yet he throws 96 mph. Once he corrects these, what will he throw then?
quote:Originally posted by Brilliant Mind:quote:Originally posted by MTS:
He also needs to keep shoulders closed/ facing 3rd base until foot lands....
It appears that his stride could be a little longer.
He is opening before foot plant and
his shoulders appear to turn with his hips.
That's quite a few, five to be exact, discrepancies. Yet he throws 96 mph. Once he corrects these, what will he throw then?
Uh... who knows? The important thing is that there are flaws that are pointed out by MTS
quote:The important thing is that there are flaws
Perhaps suggestions by someone who cares but at those speeds...flaws? Can we please stop p i s sin in folks' Wheaties here? Kbat wanted input, MTS and The Eyeball don't see eye to eye...ok...If Kbat takes everything he hears as gospel he'll just confuse the kid anyway.
Educate yourself, train your kid, let his desire take him places, he has talent, if he has problems, find a quality instructor. Learn and have him learn abour arm health and maintenance...enjoy the time you have with him.
Kbat,I was serious, me tryin to improve what I see here is innappropriate, I don't know enough or see enough. When we're talkin this kind of speed, every little nuance that gets changed can lead to serious injury, I'm not in a position to tell you anything except what I have, nothing wrong with learning and getting as much information as you can, I highly recommend it. If he has any issue..get him to someone who can see him consistantly over time, when he's tired, when he's fresh. The D-1 that wants him should be able to make reputable recommendations, use the assets that you have, learn as much as you can and like I said...you enjoy every moment you have with him.
Looks like Tim Melville.
I agree with those who say that he should lengthen his stride a bit. Other things. I like how he keeps his arm from locking out at the elbow and it is slightly bent as he finishes. I woul like to see the landing foot on the stride point towards home as he finishes. His stride foot and thigh is impeding his finish. I also don't like falling off towards 1st after he finishes. Try to square up more towards home and not let the post leg come so far forward that it lands past a parallel position with the stride foot.
So lengthen his stride , and drive towards the home plate with the landing stride foot pointing towards home and bend at the waist towards home and let the trainling foot land almost pareallel to the stride foot. Head should be steady and looking straight at home for a few seconds to allow him to protect himself and handle comebackers.
So lengthen his stride , and drive towards the home plate with the landing stride foot pointing towards home and bend at the waist towards home and let the trainling foot land almost pareallel to the stride foot. Head should be steady and looking straight at home for a few seconds to allow him to protect himself and handle comebackers.
quote:Originally posted by Stonecutter:quote:Originally posted by Brilliant Mind:quote:Originally posted by MTS:
He also needs to keep shoulders closed/ facing 3rd base until foot lands....
It appears that his stride could be a little longer.
He is opening before foot plant and
his shoulders appear to turn with his hips.
That's quite a few, five to be exact, discrepancies. Yet he throws 96 mph. Once he corrects these, what will he throw then?
Uh... who knows? The important thing is that there are flaws that are pointed out by MTS
Who knows, I was hoping MTS would since by definition, flaws = non maximal V. The poster has asked several times about V, I don't think that my question is outside any boundaries in the OP's stated interests.
BTW, these flaws entioned are best seen in high shutter speeds, stop actions. Perhaps the video quality is such that MTS could see these flaws and post the photos. The step - sequencing would be spot on the money.
Last, back to the OP, I don't necessarily agree that all of these flaws are necessarily so. Dynamic human action (movements) especially at the high speeds in pitching can be very personal. The only way to know is to "correct" a perceived flaw and see the result.
Brilliant the only problem with correcting and then see the results is that it offten takes alittle time for the correction to show results. This guys flaws are not real bad as far as you can see from the video. His aligment could be improved by lengthening his stride and making sure his toe is pointing towards home and driving towards home instead of falling off.
What if at full speed they don't manifest? What are you fixing then? You are basically seeing what 4, maybe 5 pitches at less than game intensity? The kid is throwing smoking heat...IMO you don't just adjust without really looking at that...of course you have your opinion also and it is at least equal to mine, but you'd make mechanics recommendations based on that?
BBhead, you have a son who showed success, would you want him changing his mechs based on some guy seeing a few pitches at less than game intensity...one time on a forum? This person has admitted not to being very knowledgable...I'd like to see, first understanding of the degree of excellence (A Sr blowin that gas is excellent) second more knowledge as to what improves a pitcher at that level....tweaks can be great...but can be catastophic...you may accept the responsibility of recommending a kid with that kind of heat change based on what little we see...I see it as risky at best.
So Kbat, fair enough...you've got opines and suggestions. I'd love to see some game stuff...what was his record this year? Do you mind saying what school (D-1)?
BBhead, you have a son who showed success, would you want him changing his mechs based on some guy seeing a few pitches at less than game intensity...one time on a forum? This person has admitted not to being very knowledgable...I'd like to see, first understanding of the degree of excellence (A Sr blowin that gas is excellent) second more knowledge as to what improves a pitcher at that level....tweaks can be great...but can be catastophic...you may accept the responsibility of recommending a kid with that kind of heat change based on what little we see...I see it as risky at best.
So Kbat, fair enough...you've got opines and suggestions. I'd love to see some game stuff...what was his record this year? Do you mind saying what school (D-1)?
My position is if the kid is throwing +90 mph that he don't take my pitching critic and get a pro to work with him. I feel he is capable of throwing harder than what I saw on the video.
kbat2012,
He throws fast because he is genetically superior “fast twitcher”and it has nothing to do with his mechanics. He has very mature and graceful “Traditional mechanics” that will give him all of the effects that all other traditional mechanic pitchers produce.
I would suggest:
1. To prevent any UCL degradation, he gets his ball arm up to driveline height by pendulum swinging his ball arm down, straight back then up with his hand under the ball before his glove leg touches ground.
2. To prevent front of shoulder degradation that he does not ”over early rotate” his hips and shoulders past the line between the dish and second base.
3. To eliminate loss of extension and flexion range of motion that he throws inside of vertical and pronates all of his pitches.
4. Do not lengthen his stride, it’s fine where it’s at and if he shortened it he could get more late rotation through his finish. His glove arm leg should land on the glove arm side of center mass.
5. Unless he is offered huge dollars he should attend the University and earn his Masters degree. If he signs he should still attend College in his off time!!!!
He throws fast because he is genetically superior “fast twitcher”and it has nothing to do with his mechanics. He has very mature and graceful “Traditional mechanics” that will give him all of the effects that all other traditional mechanic pitchers produce.
I would suggest:
1. To prevent any UCL degradation, he gets his ball arm up to driveline height by pendulum swinging his ball arm down, straight back then up with his hand under the ball before his glove leg touches ground.
2. To prevent front of shoulder degradation that he does not ”over early rotate” his hips and shoulders past the line between the dish and second base.
3. To eliminate loss of extension and flexion range of motion that he throws inside of vertical and pronates all of his pitches.
4. Do not lengthen his stride, it’s fine where it’s at and if he shortened it he could get more late rotation through his finish. His glove arm leg should land on the glove arm side of center mass.
5. Unless he is offered huge dollars he should attend the University and earn his Masters degree. If he signs he should still attend College in his off time!!!!
kbat, Yardbird is one of those guys that follow Marshall and think all traditional pitchers are wrong. They have nothing to offer. Just ask them how many of their pitchers are in the pros.
MTS, TGcoach,
I do NOT think that traditional pitcher do it wrong! They all do the traditional pitching mechanics right! The problem is the traditional mechanics produce injuries and this seems to be OK for you and your kid? Let it go man! Ignore my posts.
Again you seem to need to bring up Marshalls name into every thread?
“Just ask them how many of their pitchers are in the pros.”
Many and some have even been in the Show.
I have 6 current pros who have trained and use Marshall mechanics.
Many more MLB pitchers every year are using Marshall tenets.
The fact that I have said this to you many times in the past shows that you are closed minded and not capable of finding out for yourself the benefits of these ground breaking new mechanics and training methods. I do accept you as a great sounding board for this information though so please keep it up!!
I do NOT think that traditional pitcher do it wrong! They all do the traditional pitching mechanics right! The problem is the traditional mechanics produce injuries and this seems to be OK for you and your kid? Let it go man! Ignore my posts.
Again you seem to need to bring up Marshalls name into every thread?
“Just ask them how many of their pitchers are in the pros.”
Many and some have even been in the Show.
I have 6 current pros who have trained and use Marshall mechanics.
Many more MLB pitchers every year are using Marshall tenets.
The fact that I have said this to you many times in the past shows that you are closed minded and not capable of finding out for yourself the benefits of these ground breaking new mechanics and training methods. I do accept you as a great sounding board for this information though so please keep it up!!
quote:Originally posted by Yardbird:
MTS, TGcoach,
I do NOT think that traditional pitcher do it wrong! They all do the traditional pitching mechanics right! The problem is the traditional mechanics produce injuries and this seems to be OK for you and your kid? Let it go man! Ignore my posts.
Again you seem to need to bring up Marshalls name into every thread?
“Just ask them how many of their pitchers are in the pros.”
Many and some have even been in the Show.
I have 6 current pros who have trained and use Marshall mechanics.Many more MLB pitchers every year are using Marshall tenets.
The fact that I have said this to you many times in the past shows that you are closed minded and not capable of finding out for yourself the benefits of these ground breaking new mechanics and training methods. I do accept you as a great sounding board for this information though so please keep it up!!
Name the 6 pros.
Ground breaking? Hardly. How hard can your guys throw? 85, 86? Any for strikes? Kharma was full of it too.
MTS,
“Name the 6 pros.”
Then you would want me to name the College players then the HS players then the Club players then the LL players and all their accomplishments? Could you imagine all of their dads KICKING my *** all at once?
”Ground breaking? Hardly. How hard can your guys throw? 85, 86? “
Had 22 Marshall trained kids in the low 9’s in the last 8 years and currently there is 4 out of about 18 HS pitchers.
“Any for strikes?”
A few years back one of the JC kids broke a strike out record held since 1953, I guess that counts as throwing strikes. Had 19 K and 15 K back-to-back games.
“Kharma was full of it too”
I’ll never know, what did he say?
I think Kharma was a Good Samaritan trying to spread the good news and some how the subject got hi jacked into something else.
You have a different problem with me; I’m a long time practitioner of these mechanics with 100’s of players at all age groups and myself. I know how much more is gained by these tenets. Why would I keep teaching this if it did not work? I will only state what I’ve seen and done, take it or leave it.
“Name the 6 pros.”
Then you would want me to name the College players then the HS players then the Club players then the LL players and all their accomplishments? Could you imagine all of their dads KICKING my *** all at once?
”Ground breaking? Hardly. How hard can your guys throw? 85, 86? “
Had 22 Marshall trained kids in the low 9’s in the last 8 years and currently there is 4 out of about 18 HS pitchers.
“Any for strikes?”
A few years back one of the JC kids broke a strike out record held since 1953, I guess that counts as throwing strikes. Had 19 K and 15 K back-to-back games.
“Kharma was full of it too”
I’ll never know, what did he say?
I think Kharma was a Good Samaritan trying to spread the good news and some how the subject got hi jacked into something else.
You have a different problem with me; I’m a long time practitioner of these mechanics with 100’s of players at all age groups and myself. I know how much more is gained by these tenets. Why would I keep teaching this if it did not work? I will only state what I’ve seen and done, take it or leave it.
Typical...No names of pros. That is because there aren't any of yours pitching in the MLB.
MTS,
“Typical...No names of pros. That is because there aren't any of yours pitching in the MLB.”
Hey! You are correct currently and there has never been a Full Marshall mechanic pitcher at that level but the Fosbury flop had never won a gold medal until Dick did it either.
There are very many pitchers using some of the main Marshall tenets now and in the past.
If you know what they are you can recognize them and count how many tenets each one of them has. This is a great way to judge injury susceptibility in pitchers is by their Marshall tenet sum “MTS”.
“Typical...No names of pros. That is because there aren't any of yours pitching in the MLB.”
Hey! You are correct currently and there has never been a Full Marshall mechanic pitcher at that level but the Fosbury flop had never won a gold medal until Dick did it either.
There are very many pitchers using some of the main Marshall tenets now and in the past.
If you know what they are you can recognize them and count how many tenets each one of them has. This is a great way to judge injury susceptibility in pitchers is by their Marshall tenet sum “MTS”.
JD I have no problem recommending those aligment changes. If velocity is the only thing that makes a great pitcher that is wrong. Pitching is more than throwing hard. Proper alignment is important to be a complete pitcher.
I watched several hard throwers with low 90s pitches get beat up this year. Some with good mechanics that start over throwing and pulling off. My son had success with good mechanics and a 84mph FB.
I watched a LHP beat Coastal Carolina with a low 80s FB. His mechanics were beautiful. Nice stride and alignment driving towards the plate. The upper body separates from the arm slot too soon causing control problems. Being able to throw 90+ is a gift, being able to throw it properly is a huge bonus and may be a life saver.
I watched several hard throwers with low 90s pitches get beat up this year. Some with good mechanics that start over throwing and pulling off. My son had success with good mechanics and a 84mph FB.
I watched a LHP beat Coastal Carolina with a low 80s FB. His mechanics were beautiful. Nice stride and alignment driving towards the plate. The upper body separates from the arm slot too soon causing control problems. Being able to throw 90+ is a gift, being able to throw it properly is a huge bonus and may be a life saver.
Yardbird how long did you say you have been teaching Marshalls method ?
I believe that with the amount of time Marshall has been teaching , you would see some great results. If lack of injury is his only claim to fame you can do that by sitting in a corner and staring at the wall.
Tennis players get tennis elbow because they lock their elbows constantly. This young pitcher has a nice arm motion and he was a full speed later in the video. I have no problem seeing his motion and arm action. You can clearly see his toe pointing in a direction that puts his thigh in a bad position to move towards the plate. You have to look at the video when the camera pans out. The 1st part is warm throwing and doesn't give a true image of his game mechanics.
I believe that with the amount of time Marshall has been teaching , you would see some great results. If lack of injury is his only claim to fame you can do that by sitting in a corner and staring at the wall.
Tennis players get tennis elbow because they lock their elbows constantly. This young pitcher has a nice arm motion and he was a full speed later in the video. I have no problem seeing his motion and arm action. You can clearly see his toe pointing in a direction that puts his thigh in a bad position to move towards the plate. You have to look at the video when the camera pans out. The 1st part is warm throwing and doesn't give a true image of his game mechanics.
quote:I have no problem recommending those aligment changes. If velocity is the only thing that makes a great pitcher that is wrong. Pitching is more than throwing hard.
If I gave you the idea that velo was "the only thing that makes a great pitcher", I communicated poorly. My point was that messing with mechs at those speeds should be done juditiously and with more than a cursurary glance at what isn't his normal on field profile.
I agree that you are correct that there are certain things that are...universal, posture and timing are 2...I just don't think you are seeing the real delivery here. So the changes you recommend..may or may not be necessary.
Ther are guys in MLB who have the same flaws. They grow up throwing like that and their velocity and timing are ingrained and get them by.
The changes I am talking about won't mess him up but will help him becoame a complete pitcher with great control over his delivery.
As I said the latter part of the video is more game like throwing.
If the kid is throwing that hard he should have lots of interest. I know guys hwo throw that hard in HS and they all got drafte. Most have dissappeared of the face of the earth. Mechanics are so important especially for a guy who has that kind of velocity.
The changes I am talking about won't mess him up but will help him becoame a complete pitcher with great control over his delivery.
As I said the latter part of the video is more game like throwing.
If the kid is throwing that hard he should have lots of interest. I know guys hwo throw that hard in HS and they all got drafte. Most have dissappeared of the face of the earth. Mechanics are so important especially for a guy who has that kind of velocity.
He looks fine.
There may be some very minor tweaks (not many that are mentioned in this thread), but tweaks don't necessarily add up to improvements in velocity and could cause a drop in velocity (especially when someone who has been throwing this way for a very long time...just ask Justin Verlander).
Given the video quality...you would be doing more harm than good by trying to make changes to this kid.
My advice....leave him alone.
There may be some very minor tweaks (not many that are mentioned in this thread), but tweaks don't necessarily add up to improvements in velocity and could cause a drop in velocity (especially when someone who has been throwing this way for a very long time...just ask Justin Verlander).
Given the video quality...you would be doing more harm than good by trying to make changes to this kid.
My advice....leave him alone.
Looks like the stride is longer and to me fwiw looks smoother. That first pitch was smokin!! 
It might be just the video, but it appears that he lifts his glove side foot just prior to his foot plant.
kbat,
In all sincerity, my only advice so far is that you take all future video of your son's pitching mechanics while using a tripod with your vidcam.
Best of luck to your son in all of his endeavors!
In all sincerity, my only advice so far is that you take all future video of your son's pitching mechanics while using a tripod with your vidcam.
Best of luck to your son in all of his endeavors!
This is him, correct?
http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/events/draft_re...ndex.jsp?mc=melville
http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/events/draft_re...ndex.jsp?mc=melville
I agree the stride is better but he still lands with his foot too closed.
orioles,
Yes it is. Now the only question is if this was a legit post in the first place. It is funny to see some of these people trying to tell a kid who is in line to make some big bucks in a few weeks that he needs to make changes in his mechanics.
MTS got it right when he said if he's throwing that hard leave him alone.
jd,
That's his Holt jersey. I figured it was him from the motion but when I took a closer look and saw that the jersey said Holt I knew that was who it was.
BTW,
He's got a scholly to North Carolina so he's going to get some good coaching either at school or in the minors.
Yes it is. Now the only question is if this was a legit post in the first place. It is funny to see some of these people trying to tell a kid who is in line to make some big bucks in a few weeks that he needs to make changes in his mechanics.
MTS got it right when he said if he's throwing that hard leave him alone.
jd,
That's his Holt jersey. I figured it was him from the motion but when I took a closer look and saw that the jersey said Holt I knew that was who it was.
BTW,
He's got a scholly to North Carolina so he's going to get some good coaching either at school or in the minors.
The 1st thing the pros will do is work on mechanics.
CADad you should read the scouting report if that is him. It states that he was having problems withy his delivery.
Also talks about inconsistant .
So what was the prpose of asking for opinions ?
Also talks about inconsistant .
So what was the prpose of asking for opinions ?
Actually, the most recent reports from PG show that he's come on strong lately including a sharp breaking curve ball.
He's currently shown as #23 on the draft lists by Rawnsley and Simpson. These days he could go higher or lower depending on his and other player's signability.
This kid has been on the radar for a long time. I find it hard to believe that a kid with that much talent isn't getting some pretty good pitching instruction so I don't see what the purpose behind this thread was. He did slip a bit in the rankings due to a bit of a slow start so perhaps it was just a mom who is hoping for the best for her son and looking for anything she can do for him. He's doing fine now and there's nothing more to be done before the draft. Realistically, this isn't the best place to come looking for help for that advanced of a pitcher.
BTW, his mechanics are well within the norms and he has no significant flaws. (Easy for me to say now that I know he really does throw mid-90s.
)
He's currently shown as #23 on the draft lists by Rawnsley and Simpson. These days he could go higher or lower depending on his and other player's signability.
This kid has been on the radar for a long time. I find it hard to believe that a kid with that much talent isn't getting some pretty good pitching instruction so I don't see what the purpose behind this thread was. He did slip a bit in the rankings due to a bit of a slow start so perhaps it was just a mom who is hoping for the best for her son and looking for anything she can do for him. He's doing fine now and there's nothing more to be done before the draft. Realistically, this isn't the best place to come looking for help for that advanced of a pitcher.
BTW, his mechanics are well within the norms and he has no significant flaws. (Easy for me to say now that I know he really does throw mid-90s.
)
