Commitment to play?

I personally cannot blame them for skipping what is a ceremonial game where their only real benefit is the swag bag.  There are lots of kids who are playing and maybe hoping to make a statement and maybe scratch out some draft interest, but the top notch guys are taking an enormous risk taking the field - some more than others.  Saw where a potential 3rd round defensive lineman left early to prepare for the draft.  If I were a lineman and had to worry about some cheap chop block ending my career a few months before it started I'm not sure I would be able to preform at 100%.

I think baseball/pitching is different.  There is a difference between being abused and simply taking your turn in the rotation.  If you are getting shoved out early, then yes you should decline so as to avoid the unnecessary risk.  However, if you simply skip your turn, then the MLB scouts will probably take notice.  A pitcher is not going to get blindsided by some 2nd string senior playing his last game and playing out of control.  

I understand the premise and have heard many of the arguments supporting McCaffrey's decision.  I don't like it.

 College sports, football more than any, represent such a powerful "team effort" environment in every way.  Sacrifice, hard work, pushing each other every day for months/years with the goal of achieving victory on the field.  These things stand above the individual.  I don't think the other team members, particularly seniors, or the fans look at this bowl game as an insignificant scrimmage.  Everyone on the team should remain "all in" until the final snap.   Those fortunate enough to then move on to the next level can do so at that point but not a moment sooner.  When you choose to play sports, you accept injury as a distinct possibility... not as something that you suddenly become more concerned about for the last game with your war brothers.

I also heard the "well, college coaches do it all the time" argument.  Apples and oranges.  When a coach decides to take a job at another school, he has shifted his loyalties to the new school.  So, for him to stay at the old school for bowl season, conflict of interest becomes a meaningful consideration.  That is a non-factor with the yet-to-be drafted college athlete.

I don't like it but I can't blame them.

2017LHPscrewball posted:

I personally cannot blame them for skipping what is a ceremonial game where their only real benefit is the swag bag.  There are lots of kids who are playing and maybe hoping to make a statement and maybe scratch out some draft interest, but the top notch guys are taking an enormous risk taking the field - some more than others.  Saw where a potential 3rd round defensive lineman left early to prepare for the draft.  If I were a lineman and had to worry about some cheap chop block ending my career a few months before it started I'm not sure I would be able to preform at 100%.

I think baseball/pitching is different.  There is a difference between being abused and simply taking your turn in the rotation.  If you are getting shoved out early, then yes you should decline so as to avoid the unnecessary risk.  However, if you simply skip your turn, then the MLB scouts will probably take notice.  A pitcher is not going to get blindsided by some 2nd string senior playing his last game and playing out of control.  

My first reaction to your football/baseball comparison was agreement.  But, then I started thinking about college post-season play.  Usually the best teams with the top prospect P's advance through condensed conference tourneys and then regionals, etc.  Teams lean more heavily on "their guy" to get them through these "must win" games in the extended season after a lengthy regular season schedule...  pitch count limits get extended, day 1 starters are brought back as day 4 starters and then day 5 relievers...

What if "life changing money" is at stake?  And in this year's cases, were not talking $1 million life changing, we're talking $20-40 million life changing money.  Besides, what about giving that 2nd string guy the chance to step up.  Why is it OK to leave after your Junior year - and not finish out your senior year - but not OK to skip your last game? 

If you want to pick on a sport, pick on basketball.  A top recruit will play a single season before moving on to the draft.  During that year I think they have to pass a couple of courses in the fall semester and often don't bother going to class during spring semester.  Talk about a lack of commitment.

The argument "Money isn't all that is important" won't change my mind on this topic.  If NFL is the dream and it is so close you can practically touch it, then I say his teammates ought to support his decision.  It should be built into the team's fabric to support a teammate leaving when they choose to leave for a good reason.  What about playing injured?  Remember those good ole days?  Get knocked unconscious and stumble back to the huddle and hope your teammates cover for you during the next couple of plays?  Kind of like the comments about the high school pitcher who is not playing at the next level - go ahead and let him pitch his heart out - and maybe injure himself along the way - but not if he has a $40k scholarship lined up (too much to risk for his teammates).  Now start adding zeros (3 to be exact) and do the math.

The difference between football and baseball players choosing to sit out is a bit different.  In the case of the football players, it's more about injury.  For baseball players, it's MUCH more about not wanting to hurt their draft stock.  

I've seen it the past couple of years at Jupiter where a player (most often pitchers) will either not attend or attend and not pitch as not to hurt their draft stock.  Consider a top round pitcher getting rocked by a loaded team in Jupiter in his one outing in front of 200+ scouts.  They'll all tell you it doesn't matter, but the reality is that it puts doubt in their mind and the financial difference between 1-3 overall and 4-6 overall isn't insignificant.  I'm seeing it again at many of the pro workouts going on now.  Several players are showing up to schmooze, but not taking part in any of the on field hitting, etc.  Had another dad tell me point blank that their advisor told them all they can do now is hurt themselves.  

Silly in my opinion as the player has the entire spring HS season in front of him, but it does begin to beg the question if some of these kids sit out their senior year of playing HS ball if they are projected in the top ten.  They've signed their NLI, so college isn't a concern. How would MLB clubs view this and how much would it hurt their stock sitting out their pre-draft spring if they're already viewed in the top ten talentwise?

cabbagedad posted:

2017LHPscrewball posted:

I personally cannot blame them for skipping what is a ceremonial game where their only real benefit is the swag bag.  There are lots of kids who are playing and maybe hoping to make a statement and maybe scratch out some draft interest, but the top notch guys are taking an enormous risk taking the field - some more than others.  Saw where a potential 3rd round defensive lineman left early to prepare for the draft.  If I were a lineman and had to worry about some cheap chop block ending my career a few months before it started I'm not sure I would be able to preform at 100%.

I think baseball/pitching is different.  There is a difference between being abused and simply taking your turn in the rotation.  If you are getting shoved out early, then yes you should decline so as to avoid the unnecessary risk.  However, if you simply skip your turn, then the MLB scouts will probably take notice.  A pitcher is not going to get blindsided by some 2nd string senior playing his last game and playing out of control.  

My first reaction to your football/baseball comparison was agreement.  But, then I started thinking about college post-season play.  Usually the best teams with the top prospect P's advance through condensed conference tourneys and then regionals, etc.  Teams lean more heavily on "their guy" to get them through these "must win" games in the extended season after a lengthy regular season schedule...  pitch count limits get extended, day 1 starters are brought back as day 4 starters and then day 5 relievers...

My point was that AT SOME POINT the "leaning" can get out of control, especially some smaller school that may have started leaning on guys during the final couple of series and then into conference play and then maybe into regionals.  

While it is not always the case, some standout football player going against far weaker opponents runs the risk of having a third party (i.e. the guy across from him) take inappropriate steps (cheap shots) in an attempt to execute his assignment (not get beat by the superior player).  In baseball, no one on the other team (for the most part) has the opportunity to end a career.  The player's own HC/PC's do have that opportunity to end a career if they push guys past their limit (will leave discussions about limits for another day).  You can always discuss with your HC/PC what your workload had been and what is workable.  Not sure you have a chance to have a sit down with the tackle across the line of scrimmage and come to terms on just where your knees start and how you prefer not to get the crackback more than once a game.

2017LHPscrewball posted:

Why is it OK to leave after your Junior year - and not finish out your senior year - but not OK to skip your last game? 

If you want to pick on a sport, pick on basketball.  A top recruit will play a single season before moving on to the draft.  During that year I think they have to pass a couple of courses in the fall semester and often don't bother going to class during spring semester.  Talk about a lack of commitment.

 

I view this differently.  Players are bound by the rules set between Organizations (NCAA & MLB/NFL/NBA).  If the rules require a player to fulfil one, two or three years at an NCAA school before being draft eligible, then once that commitment is met, then I can't imaging holding a grudge against any player who chooses his option to being his life's work and get paid to do so.

I view leaving your team mid (or near end) of season differently.  I understand the reasoning, but in my opnion, this is not fulfilling their commitment to their school, team or teammates.  I do get it where the risk of injury is significant, but still not a fan of it.  I have little tolerence when someone is advised or chooses to sit out because they are afraid of hurting their draft stock due to performance.  If I'm in the draft room and that kid comes up, THAT's sticking in my mind regarding commitment and heart.

Where does this end? A pitcher on a college team knows he is going to be a good draft pick. His team is out of contention for post season play. He simply shuts it down. No need to take a risk. Just work out and throw some pens.

The stud college football player's team is out of contention for post season play 2-7 with 3 games left in the season. He simply shuts it down to prepare for the combine. Where does it stop?

Ask yourself this question. What if coaches once it was clear they were not going to make the post season decided to play next years projected contributors and sat the Sr's? How would you feel if one of those kids were your son? I mean were not winning anything this year. Here is a chance to get those guys experience and we can evaluate them.

To me it's about loyalty to your program and your team mates. It's about finishing what you started. How would you feel about Sr's with no shot at the next level simply "shutting it down" when there was nothing left to play for other than love of the game and the love of competition?

I understand the idea that "There is no need to risk an injury with so much at stake for me." What I hear is "There is no need for me to continue to act like I care about Team when it's all about me anyway. These guys can't help me anymore so why take a risk so they can have a better chance to win."

This is just my opinion. Everyone has one.

You hate to see kids letting their teammates down, but...  When you are talking millions of dollars you do what is best for the future of  your family.  For those who are already wealthy maybe this is hard to understand.  For those of us who come from poorer backgrounds - I would definitely be disappointed in my son if he were ever in that position and chose to do anything other than think about his future and the future of his family.  If he gets hurt are all those teammates gonna start a collection to replace those millions?  No, they will pat him on the back and say tough break kid.  Well that don't cut it for that guys kids when they are struggling some day when they had an easy opportunity to be comfortable beyond their imagination.  Secure your future.  In the long run thats all that matters.

2017LHPscrewball posted:

What if "life changing money" is at stake?  And in this year's cases, were not talking $1 million life changing, we're talking $20-40 million life changing money.  Besides, what about giving that 2nd string guy the chance to step up.

Who gives the team the best chance to accomplish the team goal of victory?

  Why is it OK to leave after your Junior year - and not finish out your senior year - but not OK to skip your last game? 

The player who leaves as a junior played hard all the way thru the last possible snap of his college career.  He then moved on to the next level when the opportunity presented itself.  While he was part of the team, he remained fully committed to the goals of the team.  "Quitting" with one game left is different than choosing another direction after a season is completed.

I'm not fully dismissing your argument here.  There is some merit to the analogy.   

If you want to pick on a sport, pick on basketball.  A top recruit will play a single season before moving on to the draft.  During that year I think they have to pass a couple of courses in the fall semester and often don't bother going to class during spring semester.  Talk about a lack of commitment.

Totally agree.  I hate the one-and-done structure of college basketball.  I think it goes against the spirit of college sports.

The argument "Money isn't all that is important" won't change my mind on this topic.  If NFL is the dream and it is so close you can practically touch it, then I say his teammates ought to support his decision.  

And in McCaffrey's case, it sounds like they did.  But with every "we support him", came a "it had to be a very hard decision".  In other words, they are very aware of the implications regarding the team commitment.  I'm not going to argue that money isn't all that important, but if you start cutting out early based on the opportunity for life-changing money, where do you draw the line?  What if he had a great first five games, coming after his great season the year before?  Should he consider sitting the rest of the season because he is assured a $20-40 mil NFL contract at that point?  Not in my book.  Finish what you start.   Again, I think it is a different argument quitting before the end of the season vs. going draft eligible after junior year.

It should be built into the team's fabric to support a teammate leaving when they choose to leave for a good reason.

Of course, but what constitutes good reason?  Getting hurt?  You could have been hurt two games ago... or five games ago.  It comes with the territory, with the sport... with the commitment.  Where do you draw the line?  I think you start down a slippery slope.  I will always value "values" over money, no matter the number.   

 

I see this as an apples to oranges comparision.  The CWS is for a national championship.  These Bowl games for LSU and Stanford are not national championships and more about making appearance money for the school and end of year rankings that are meaningless for the most part.  It is not the same thing in my mind. 

JMO

PS....You asked "will high school players do the same?".  In my experience, yes.  I hear about it all the time and I've seen it with my own eyes.   I've seen travel baseball players commit to a college then leave their uncommitted travel teammates (who they have played with for 2.5 years) flapping in the wind.   It happens.  

Lets not forget, the primary purpose of most travel ball organizations is to provide the right exposure for individual players for recruitment opportunities.  Yes, it is important to be successful to draw more interest, but winning as a team is not the primary goal or purpose.  So, I don't see it as the same issue for a travel player to cease or decrease participation (within a mutually agreed degree) with the travel program once the primary goal is accomplished (player commits to a school).  

HS and college sports exist with the primary goal of winning as a team, as a school, as a community, etc.  Commitment to the end is expected and vital to success.

There are some WIDE brushes being used in this thread.  Let's discuss a hypothetical which is quite different than McCaffrey's (solid education from a financially stable family).  Some poor kid from a poor family who did not have the best academic record in high school, but could play football.  Some big State U gets him on campus and surrounds him with "help" to keep him eligible while he focuses of further developing his football skills.  Going into his junior year he has no real expectation of graduating in four years and is working on a degree track that his is not quite sure what to do with.  In other words, the school has done him few favors when it comes to academics but has done a wonderful job at improving his football skills.  As a result, this poor kid has helped the program's standing and maybe even helped out with jersey sales (the ones with his number, just not his name).  The school has made out very well with their investment to the tune of millions of dollars.  The kid has made some very good friends along the way who understand the rigors of playing FBS football and where the true focus needs to be.

The old saying "Don't give up on your teammates" needs to be plastered across every amateur locker room across the nation, but don't bother when the college team is really a money-making machine that seeks higher and higher skills and quickly dispenses with those who fall short.  You are not giving up on teammates as much as fulfilling their dreams of what they hope occurs in the near future.  

Also, when did NCAA rules having anything to do with one's required period of loyalty?  Is the argument that if the NCAA says it is OK to bail, then your teammates should understand since big brother says its OK?  Is a teeanager supposed to make a heartfelt commitment to the school, the NCAA and the NFL and be unwavering despite the situation?  I can almost buy into the teammate commitment and maybe the school, but the NCAA and NFL rules are non-starters.

Ask yourself this question. What if coaches once it was clear they were not going to make the post season decided to play next years projected contributors and sat the Sr's? How would you feel if one of those kids were your son? I mean were not winning anything this year. Here is a chance to get those guys experience and we can evaluate them.

Have you not seen this happen, especially in a football sense?  Maybe be a little harder to pull seniors off the diamond, but to start getting some reps to the younger guys in football or basketball happens everyday, especially when a good coach is having a bad season and wants to rebound next year.  

cabbagedad posted:

Lets not forget, the primary purpose of most travel ball organizations is to provide the right exposure for individual players for recruitment opportunities.  Yes, it is important to be successful to draw more interest, but winning as a team is not the primary goal or purpose.  So, I don't see it as the same issue for a travel player to cease or decrease participation (within a mutually agreed degree) with the travel program once the primary goal is accomplished (player commits to a school).  

HS and college sports exist with the primary goal of winning as a team, as a school, as a community, etc.  Commitment to the end is expected and vital to success.

So in "travel ball" there are officially no "teammates"?  Think about those late season PG events when those early games are scattered out over 30 locations.  Some poor little kid who is trying to get recruited desperately hopes they make the tournament so maybe he can play at the big park in front of a few schools.  If that was me and some kid knocks off early saying he got his verbal and has completed his commitment to the "program", I'd really be be mad that he must have never had any concern for me or any other dues-paying member (in lieu of the term "teammate").  Are we saying 15u travel ball is more cut throat than FBS D1 football?

Nuke83 posted:

2017LHPscrewball posted:

Why is it OK to leave after your Junior year - and not finish out your senior year - but not OK to skip your last game? 

If you want to pick on a sport, pick on basketball.  A top recruit will play a single season before moving on to the draft.  During that year I think they have to pass a couple of courses in the fall semester and often don't bother going to class during spring semester.  Talk about a lack of commitment.

 

I view this differently.  Players are bound by the rules set between Organizations (NCAA & MLB/NFL/NBA).  If the rules require a player to fulfil one, two or three years at an NCAA school before being draft eligible, then once that commitment is met, then I can't imaging holding a grudge against any player who chooses his option to being his life's work and get paid to do so.

I view leaving your team mid (or near end) of season differently.  I understand the reasoning, but in my opnion, this is not fulfilling their commitment to their school, team or teammates.  I do get it where the risk of injury is significant, but still not a fan of it.  I have little tolerence when someone is advised or chooses to sit out because they are afraid of hurting their draft stock due to performance.  If I'm in the draft room and that kid comes up, THAT's sticking in my mind regarding commitment and heart.

I think 2017LHP's point is there is no "I" in team....you are either looking out for what is best for you, or you do what's best for the team.  Sometimes those concepts are mutually exclusive.

Is anyone else reminded of the Home Run Derby Drama with this discussion?

Coach_May posted:

Where does this end? A pitcher on a college team knows he is going to be a good draft pick. His team is out of contention for post season play. He simply shuts it down. No need to take a risk. Just work out and throw some pens.

The stud college football player's team is out of contention for post season play 2-7 with 3 games left in the season. He simply shuts it down to prepare for the combine. Where does it stop?

Ask yourself this question. What if coaches once it was clear they were not going to make the post season decided to play next years projected contributors and sat the Sr's? How would you feel if one of those kids were your son? I mean were not winning anything this year. Here is a chance to get those guys experience and we can evaluate them.

To me it's about loyalty to your program and your team mates. It's about finishing what you started. How would you feel about Sr's with no shot at the next level simply "shutting it down" when there was nothing left to play for other than love of the game and the love of competition?

I understand the idea that "There is no need to risk an injury with so much at stake for me." What I hear is "There is no need for me to continue to act like I care about Team when it's all about me anyway. These guys can't help me anymore so why take a risk so they can have a better chance to win."

This is just my opinion. Everyone has one.

 

I have known lots of coaches who have gone young in a wasted year.  I find nothing wrong with that either.  And I am fine with any of those scenarios you mentioned.  Why are we supposed to be so loyal to 'the man' when they could really care less about us?  These big time college coaches are making huge money.  I am happy for them.  But then they can't be hypocrites and turn around and berate kids who are looking for their piece of the pie.  Coaching high school or small college is so much different than say SEC football.  That's big money and the kids shouldn't be ashamed to ensure theirs.

2017LHPscrewball posted:

cabbagedad posted:

Lets not forget, the primary purpose of most travel ball organizations is to provide the right exposure for individual players for recruitment opportunities.  Yes, it is important to be successful to draw more interest, but winning as a team is not the primary goal or purpose.  So, I don't see it as the same issue for a travel player to cease or decrease participation (within a mutually agreed degree) with the travel program once the primary goal is accomplished (player commits to a school).  

HS and college sports exist with the primary goal of winning as a team, as a school, as a community, etc.  Commitment to the end is expected and vital to success.

So in "travel ball" there are officially no "teammates"?  Think about those late season PG events when those early games are scattered out over 30 locations.  Some poor little kid who is trying to get recruited desperately hopes they make the tournament so maybe he can play at the big park in front of a few schools.  If that was me and some kid knocks off early saying he got his verbal and has completed his commitment to the "program", I'd really be be mad that he must have never had any concern for me or any other dues-paying member (in lieu of the term "teammate").  Are we saying 15u travel ball is more cut throat than FBS D1 football?

No one would EVER say 15u travel ball is more cut throat than FBS D1 football, that's 16u!

 That's big money and the kids shouldn't be ashamed to ensure theirs.

I think the use of ashamed is perfect in this sentence.  Some might prefer to stick it out but are given overwhelming advice to secure their future by sometimes very smart folks.  They should not be ashamed and the teammates should support them wholeheartedly (assuming they are simply not jerks in the first place).

CaCO3Girl posted:

2017LHPscrewball posted:

cabbagedad posted:

Lets not forget, the primary purpose of most travel ball organizations is to provide the right exposure for individual players for recruitment opportunities.  Yes, it is important to be successful to draw more interest, but winning as a team is not the primary goal or purpose.  So, I don't see it as the same issue for a travel player to cease or decrease participation (within a mutually agreed degree) with the travel program once the primary goal is accomplished (player commits to a school).  

HS and college sports exist with the primary goal of winning as a team, as a school, as a community, etc.  Commitment to the end is expected and vital to success.

So in "travel ball" there are officially no "teammates"?  Think about those late season PG events when those early games are scattered out over 30 locations.  Some poor little kid who is trying to get recruited desperately hopes they make the tournament so maybe he can play at the big park in front of a few schools.  If that was me and some kid knocks off early saying he got his verbal and has completed his commitment to the "program", I'd really be be mad that he must have never had any concern for me or any other dues-paying member (in lieu of the term "teammate").  Are we saying 15u travel ball is more cut throat than FBS D1 football?

No one would EVER say 15u travel ball is more cut throat than FBS D1 football, that's 16u!

My bad.  I guess 15u is that last year when players struggle together as a team, though heat and high water, to win one for the Gipper and develop lifelong friends.  Then they start looking for a 16u team and the gloves come off.

So you believe that all college coaches could careless about their players? Or all college team mates could careless about their team mates? You get back to me when your son is a Sr and get's benched the last half of his Sr year so they can look forward. Does it happen? Yes. Is it right? Not in my opinion. A kid has busted his butt for 4 or 5 years and for the sake of next year he sits. Its really easy to say that when you have never been that parent. Or the good friend of a player that experienced it. But if it does happen to your son let me know if you feel the same way.

Loyal to the Man? If that man is your team mate - yep. He blocked for you. He helped you earn what you might get. You didn't do it by yourself did you? If you played behind a pathetic line and on a pathetic team would anyone know your name? Maybe, maybe not.

Again I understand people will have different opinions. I just have a problem with "My team - My team mates - Our program - My program" come on man just be honest. "This is about what I can get and once I get it I'm out of here." Be honest and save us the interviews after the games.

I'm not here to change anyone's opinion and neither are you. I will bow out of this thread because my feelings on this topic are a little too strong. There is something that simply doesn't sit well with me about a kid who professes to be all about the team and his team mates and then doesn't finish the race. It screams ME ME ME ME! Again good luck with the discussion. But I'm out of this one.

The school's lawyers will be busy with new conditions in the scholarship. player will agree to attend all classes and all games including post season or scholarship will be cancelled.

The pro baseball scouts when they learn of a player abandoning their team will place a "red check" to the scouting report.

Sitting with a pro baseball scout, I ask "what do you look for"?

Lloyd - said a "player who can play in the World Series". Body language, actions off & on the field and the 6 tools.

Bob

I personally cannot recall any college baseball players quitting mid-season to pursue the draft.  Does anyone have any examples they can share?

To expand the list, does anyone have examples of a player who refused a game assignment (pitching) post-season due to concerns about draft implications?  If so, please share any details as to innings pitched during the season up through the decision not to pitch.

CaCO3Girl posted:

2017LHPscrewball posted:

cabbagedad posted:

Lets not forget, the primary purpose of most travel ball organizations is to provide the right exposure for individual players for recruitment opportunities.  Yes, it is important to be successful to draw more interest, but winning as a team is not the primary goal or purpose.  So, I don't see it as the same issue for a travel player to cease or decrease participation (within a mutually agreed degree) with the travel program once the primary goal is accomplished (player commits to a school).  

HS and college sports exist with the primary goal of winning as a team, as a school, as a community, etc.  Commitment to the end is expected and vital to success.

So in "travel ball" there are officially no "teammates"?  Think about those late season PG events when those early games are scattered out over 30 locations.  Some poor little kid who is trying to get recruited desperately hopes they make the tournament so maybe he can play at the big park in front of a few schools.  If that was me and some kid knocks off early saying he got his verbal and has completed his commitment to the "program", I'd really be be mad that he must have never had any concern for me or any other dues-paying member (in lieu of the term "teammate").  Are we saying 15u travel ball is more cut throat than FBS D1 football?

No one would EVER say 15u travel ball is more cut throat than FBS D1 football, that's 16u!

Well, I'll just say that there are some interesting liberties taken with interpretation of my post.  I certainly didn't say "there are officially no teammates" with travel organizations and I don't know how I implied that "15u travel is more cut throat than FBS D1 football" but I did imply that there is more of an individual component, by design, with most travel organizations.

Also, regarding Coach May's analogy, he was describing a scenario where a coach drew the line in the sand and completely stopped playing seniors, including those who had earned their starting roles and are in otherwise good standing with the team, not the widely accepted and logical direction to "start getting some reps to the younger guys".

I gave my opinion on the topic.  I'm just going to step aside for others' at this point.

Coach_May posted:

Where does this end? A pitcher on a college team knows he is going to be a good draft pick. His team is out of contention for post season play. He simply shuts it down. No need to take a risk. Just work out and throw some pens.

The stud college football player's team is out of contention for post season play 2-7 with 3 games left in the season. He simply shuts it down to prepare for the combine. Where does it stop?

Ask yourself this question. What if coaches once it was clear they were not going to make the post season decided to play next years projected contributors and sat the Sr's? How would you feel if one of those kids were your son? I mean were not winning anything this year. Here is a chance to get those guys experience and we can evaluate them.

To me it's about loyalty to your program and your team mates. It's about finishing what you started. How would you feel about Sr's with no shot at the next level simply "shutting it down" when there was nothing left to play for other than love of the game and the love of competition?

I understand the idea that "There is no need to risk an injury with so much at stake for me." What I hear is "There is no need for me to continue to act like I care about Team when it's all about me anyway. These guys can't help me anymore so why take a risk so they can have a better chance to win."

This is just my opinion. Everyone has one.

 

Coach I can agree with your premise here however football and baseball are very different games.

I think a more fair question would be if the same kid you are referring to who is going to be a top pick is in the last series of the year, he did his normal Friday night start and threw 110 pitches while cruising into the 8th...then on Sunday afternoon with one day rest they want him to throw the 9th of a inning of a 1 run game like Clayton Kershaw in the WS... so the coach can guarantee his winning season....yea I don't think anyone would blame the kid for saying no at that point.

Football is violent game where injury happens at a much higher percentage of time.

Consultant posted:

The school's lawyers will be busy with new conditions in the scholarship. player will agree to attend all classes and all games including post season or scholarship will be cancelled.

The pro baseball scouts when they learn of a player abandoning their team will place a "red check" to the scouting report.

Sitting with a pro baseball scout, I ask "what do you look for"?

Lloyd - said a "player who can play in the World Series". Body language, actions off & on the field and the 6 tools.

Bob

so when said player announces before his last meaningless bowl game that he strained a hammy and is out for the night....much like the pro bowl game in the NFL. what are you going to do with the revised contract at that point?

plus I think we already know what pro scouts look for - 6'2" 190 sub 6.8, plus 100 exit velo, with a cannon...they can have any damn body language they want and they will be drafted, drafted high and given every chance to prove they aren't a dog. there are literally hundreds or more examples of them out there.

old_school posted:

Coach_May posted:

Where does this end? A pitcher on a college team knows he is going to be a good draft pick. His team is out of contention for post season play. He simply shuts it down. No need to take a risk. Just work out and throw some pens.

The stud college football player's team is out of contention for post season play 2-7 with 3 games left in the season. He simply shuts it down to prepare for the combine. Where does it stop?

Ask yourself this question. What if coaches once it was clear they were not going to make the post season decided to play next years projected contributors and sat the Sr's? How would you feel if one of those kids were your son? I mean were not winning anything this year. Here is a chance to get those guys experience and we can evaluate them.

To me it's about loyalty to your program and your team mates. It's about finishing what you started. How would you feel about Sr's with no shot at the next level simply "shutting it down" when there was nothing left to play for other than love of the game and the love of competition?

I understand the idea that "There is no need to risk an injury with so much at stake for me." What I hear is "There is no need for me to continue to act like I care about Team when it's all about me anyway. These guys can't help me anymore so why take a risk so they can have a better chance to win."

This is just my opinion. Everyone has one.

 

Coach I can agree with your premise here however football and baseball are very different games.

I think a more fair question would be if the same kid you are referring to who is going to be a top pick is in the last series of the year, he did his normal Friday night start and threw 110 pitches while cruising into the 8th...then on Sunday afternoon with one day rest they want him to throw the 9th of a inning of a 1 run game like Clayton Kershaw in the WS... so the coach can guarantee his winning season....yea I don't think anyone would blame the kid for saying no at that point.

Football is violent game where injury happens at a much higher percentage of time.

 have always loved and respected Coach Mays passionate responses ...

I played college football, long ago, I could not imagine any of my teammates not playing a game. There was never any question that one would do whatever it took to help the team. I could not look a teammate in the eye and say I'm not playing next week, good luck out there.

My son just finished his college career last year, he left his team with one year of eligibility left. He was there 4 years, finished his degree, pitched his ass off to help his team. Probably pitched a couple times when he shouldn't have, but there would have been no way he would have not finished out a season with his team.

Oldschool in your scenario, at least that top pick stayed with his team until the end. No one would question the pitcher not going out for the Sunday game, but if he passed on the Friday start then what? Especially if the draft was on Saturday.

I am with you Coach, team 1st. Football and baseball are different animals, but to me being part of a team means you go down with the ship. It may be a game or at work but you don't leave a team or a teammate down. JMO

I think the 15u comment was meant as a joke.  As for travel teams, you are now introducing the concept of degrees.  If that is the case, I will say that FBS college football has more of an "individual component' than, say DIII football.  Everyone on here says college baseball - at all levels - is a job and needs to be treated as such.  Each year a new class arrives and the competition begins again.  Are we really supposed to believe that once the season rolls around, everyone is happy with their role and they morph into rah rah teammates.  I am all for discussing issues, but you cannot work both sides or borrow from the other side with "degrees" when it helps the cause.

As for Coach May's analogy, let me use basketball.  Let's say your senior kid is getting 10 minutes a game off the bench (say he is #7 coming off the bench - giving the starters a breather).  Well, when coach starts working in the younger guys, guess what?  Those 10 minutes go to zero.  Starters get less time and the coach understands he is putting a less competitive team on the court (i.e. sole goal is no longer winning).  Sitting the seniors outright is not altogether different, it just has very poor visuals so coaches usually don't go that far so as to keep the peace.  My argument was clearly in the spirit of the discussion (i.e. coach gives up on this year's record in hopes a rebounding next year).  I do not condone sitting seniors for various reasons (its high school after all - seniors rule) but have no problem with a coach effectively "giving up" on the season as far as winning is concerned in favor of working towards a better season next year. 

Also, I assume Coach May was referring to high school sports.  Once out of high school and into the college level, loyalty to seniors is essentially non-existent (coaches like keeping their jobs) and cannot be expected at the higher levels for valid reasons.

I am with you Coach, team 1st. Football and baseball are different animals, but to me being part of a team means you go down with the ship. It may be a game or at work but you don't leave a team or a teammate down. JMO

It's not like when these guys check out early they have to play 10 guys against 11.  That would be bad.  On a happy note, there is probably at least one guy who is happy (that guy's backup).  Again, what ever happened to next man up?

mmm1531 posted:

old_school posted:

Coach_May posted:

Where does this end? A pitcher on a college team knows he is going to be a good draft pick. His team is out of contention for post season play. He simply shuts it down. No need to take a risk. Just work out and throw some pens.

The stud college football player's team is out of contention for post season play 2-7 with 3 games left in the season. He simply shuts it down to prepare for the combine. Where does it stop?

Ask yourself this question. What if coaches once it was clear they were not going to make the post season decided to play next years projected contributors and sat the Sr's? How would you feel if one of those kids were your son? I mean were not winning anything this year. Here is a chance to get those guys experience and we can evaluate them.

To me it's about loyalty to your program and your team mates. It's about finishing what you started. How would you feel about Sr's with no shot at the next level simply "shutting it down" when there was nothing left to play for other than love of the game and the love of competition?

I understand the idea that "There is no need to risk an injury with so much at stake for me." What I hear is "There is no need for me to continue to act like I care about Team when it's all about me anyway. These guys can't help me anymore so why take a risk so they can have a better chance to win."

This is just my opinion. Everyone has one.

 

Coach I can agree with your premise here however football and baseball are very different games.

I think a more fair question would be if the same kid you are referring to who is going to be a top pick is in the last series of the year, he did his normal Friday night start and threw 110 pitches while cruising into the 8th...then on Sunday afternoon with one day rest they want him to throw the 9th of a inning of a 1 run game like Clayton Kershaw in the WS... so the coach can guarantee his winning season....yea I don't think anyone would blame the kid for saying no at that point.

Football is violent game where injury happens at a much higher percentage of time.

 have always loved and respected Coach Mays passionate responses ...

I played college football, long ago, I could not imagine any of my teammates not playing a game. There was never any question that one would do whatever it took to help the team. I could not look a teammate in the eye and say I'm not playing next week, good luck out there.

My son just finished his college career last year, he left his team with one year of eligibility left. He was there 4 years, finished his degree, pitched his ass off to help his team. Probably pitched a couple times when he shouldn't have, but there would have been no way he would have not finished out a season with his team.

Oldschool in your scenario, at least that top pick stayed with his team until the end. No one would question the pitcher not going out for the Sunday game, but if he passed on the Friday start then what? Especially if the draft was on Saturday.

I am with you Coach, team 1st. Football and baseball are different animals, but to me being part of a team means you go down with the ship. It may be a game or at work but you don't leave a team or a teammate down. JMO

I got to tell you I am team first guy, I own a business and we are constantly pushing the team first concept...but you are telling me someone is going to look down on a kid for passing on a meaningless start the week or day before he gets 10M guaranteed? at some point everyone does have a price and in that situation 10M is certainly the number!

If I was the coach I wouldn't let him pitch, I would thank him for the obvious successes the team and he had been a part of together over the last few years and hope like hell he is there for me in future - recruiting, donating and supporting good ole whatever U it happen to be.

Now if were in the College WS it is a different conversation...I think they are very different situations.

old_school posted:

Consultant posted:

The school's lawyers will be busy with new conditions in the scholarship. player will agree to attend all classes and all games including post season or scholarship will be cancelled.

The pro baseball scouts when they learn of a player abandoning their team will place a "red check" to the scouting report.

Sitting with a pro baseball scout, I ask "what do you look for"?

Lloyd - said a "player who can play in the World Series". Body language, actions off & on the field and the 6 tools.

Bob

so when said player announces before his last meaningless bowl game that he strained a hammy and is out for the night....much like the pro bowl game in the NFL. what are you going to do with the revised contract at that point?

6.8, plus 100 exit velo, with a cannon...they cplus I think we already know what pro scouts look for - 6'2" 190 sub an have any damn body language they want and they will be drafted, drafted high and given every chance to prove they aren't a dog. there are literally hundreds or more examples of them out there.

 

truth

I am thinking out loud here so forgive my naiveté.  The schools are making a fortune here in many cases.  Why not pay for insurance to insure these players from injuries?  They can come up with prospect grades and formulas such that the high prospects will receive lots of money if injured and the lessor prospects receive less.  If you don't like my nebulous proposal based on a prospects perceived worth, give any kid who is injured in a bowl game lots of insurance money. 

I am not as uncomfortable as some are with a player looking out for themselves to an extent.  Yes kids get scholarships as compensation but I believe colleges can do more to try and get kids to participate if this becomes a major problem which it appears it just well might.  I still watch bowl games so I hope that we can keep kids participating in them. 

ClevelandDad posted:

I am thinking out loud here so forgive my naiveté.  The schools are making a fortune here in many cases.  Why not pay for insurance to insure these players from injuries?  They can come up with prospect grades and formulas such that the high prospects will receive lots of money if injured and the lessor prospects receive less.  If you don't like my nebulous proposal based on a prospects perceived worth, give any kid who is injured in a bowl game lots of insurance money. 

I am not as uncomfortable as some are with a player looking out for themselves to an extent.  Yes kids get scholarships as compensation but I believe colleges can do more to try and get kids to participate if this becomes a major problem which it appears it just well might.  I still watch bowl games so I hope that we can keep kids participating in them. 

The beginnings of your plan are in effect as the NCAA allows student athletes to borrow money to purchase certain insurance products while still in school.  I think the policies are designed to predict future earnings as a professional athlete and do not include any medical related issues.  I think they assigned a projected draft position and will pay the difference between actual contract and projected contract if there is sufficient proof that an on field injury led to the drop in draft status.  Policies are not cheap as they are highly customized.  If the NCAA cannot administer the athletic stipend program, they are wholly unprepared to take on this type of program.

I wonder to what extent the football national championship series has impacted this, with only four teams still "alive."  With LSU and Stanford going to lesser bowls, Fournette and McCaffrey have decided to bow out . . . can you imagine a player from the final four teams doing it?!?

Wow.  This one has really taken off. I too have strong feelings on this. Perhaps I should also duck out after this. I grew up poor. Done the best I could but made some life mistakes. Have five kids so whatever scant amount I might have when I kick the bucket won't take anybody far split five ways. This is really an intellectual excercize for me cause my kids will never be in this position. But theoretically if one were this is what I would say,

"son grab the money and don't let it go. Take care of your family and make sure to be charitable as well. But whatever you do don't get caught up in that macho win one for the gipper crap and for sure don't go down with the ship. This 'team' stuff they are selling you only applies if everyone is splitting everything. If coach is splitting his 5million a year 100 ways for all the kids on the team...  if those other draftees on your team are going to split their bonuses with you then we will talk. But son, do you really want to tell your 6 year old someday that times are tough and you can't afford to sign him up for T ball or put a decent meal on the table for that matter "cause you had your boys back" in the meaningless bowl ten years ago. Do you want to someday say the following to your son?"

"We may be poor son, we may not be able to pay the light bill but by golly I stood by the boys for that last game of my college career. Sorry son I guess I just never thought about this day when I would love somebody more than I ever thought possible and I had to let him down. The worst thing is son, I really don't even see or talk to those guys much anymore. The ones who made it avoid me, worried I may be looking for a handout. I know now son I should have taken classes that led to graduation. I should have done a lot of things different but coach said he loved me like a father loves a son. He told me I was going to be a big star and everything would be alright. I believed in him. I saw it as almost a sacred duty to stand by my team. Now I look at your sad eyes and realize that the most important team I was ever going to be on is the one right here, my family team. I grew up poor but because of my abilities the system passed me along. Everybody clung to me during my meteoric rise. I was enabled at every turn. What was a teenager brought up in poverty going to do?  I took it all son, I fell for it all hook line and sinker. Then the day came. The crossroads of my life... stand by my team or wish them luck and sign my $15million contract which could have secured this family forever. I chose my football teammates who now barely talk to me over you son. Over you, your mother and your siblings. And there you are gazing up into my eyes like I am still your hero. All the faith in the world that I will keep you fed and safe and happy and I am just not sure I can do it. I am so sorry son. If only I had it to do over..."

when times are tough former teammates will turn their back on you at an overwhelming rate. And that's probably as it should be cause THEIR families come first. Even if these kids don't have families yet they will one day. Do they want memories from the meaningless bowl or lifetime financial security for their family. If that's not an easy answer for you I seriously question your priorities. 

2020DAD - well said.  Folks need to understand that that story may show only the downside, but it can actually play out in that exact fashion.  I also like the kids who unashamedly say that it is about the money and that while they may have some feeling of regret for skipping out on a game, real life implications overrule.  It's kind of like making a pact with your fellow freshman roommate about touring Europe for 6 months after graduation and then get a great job offer that just so happens to start immediately after graduation.  Do you take the great job or do you follow through on your long ago promise to hang out in hostels and drink warm beer before coming home and trying to find a replacement job in the real world.  Oh, by the way, you've also met the girl of your dreams and want to get married and she has a job lined up in the same city.  Still taking that vacation with your bro?

2017LHPscrewball posted:

2020DAD - well said.  Folks need to understand that that story may show only the downside, but it can actually play out in that exact fashion.  I also like the kids who unashamedly say that it is about the money and that while they may have some feeling of regret for skipping out on a game, real life implications overrule.  It's kind of like making a pact with your fellow freshman roommate about touring Europe for 6 months after graduation and then get a great job offer that just so happens to start immediately after graduation.  Do you take the great job or do you follow through on your long ago promise to hang out in hostels and drink warm beer before coming home and trying to find a replacement job in the real world.  Oh, by the way, you've also met the girl of your dreams and want to get married and she has a job lined up in the same city.  Still taking that vacation with your bro?

Good points.  Kind of reminds me of another game, "Survivor".  It would be nice to play with absolute honesty and fidelity, but if you do, you're the only one. And if you stick to every deal you make from day one, you'll never get the million dollars.

To me this is a free market issue.  I'm not a Stanford football player or coach so it's none of my beeswax what decisions McCaffrey makes.  He's just an entertainer on my TV. If Whatever Network wants me to watch the WhoCares Bowl so they can make money by putting h*rd-*n pill commercials on my TV, then they better put a good product with good players like McCaffrey on the field, and if paying Stanford U. a ton of cash doesn't get that done, then pay them enough to pay their players, or put a different team on the field. It's not like there are not other things to watch.

ClevelandDad posted:

I am thinking out loud here so forgive my naiveté.  The schools are making a fortune here in many cases.  Why not pay for insurance to insure these players from injuries?  They can come up with prospect grades and formulas such that the high prospects will receive lots of money if injured and the lessor prospects receive less.  If you don't like my nebulous proposal based on a prospects perceived worth, give any kid who is injured in a bowl game lots of insurance money. 

 

They DO get insurance. I know that DeShawn Watson talked about this in an interview and pretty sure it's paid by Clemson and based on formula.

I am sure that he isnt the only one.  

Heard a big discussion on the radio about this. These players are being advised by their agents.  The agent, who does not advise this to players, spoke about teams wondering if these players might be the type of player they feel is a player they want on their team. They may just have lost quite a bit of money.

I agree with Coach May, wait until your kids go off to play, maybe their will be a better understanding.