With less than 1 LL player in 10,000- 100,000 making it to the majors you could spend several lifetimes before you had an opportunity to be around one that is destined for stardom. Bad odds for any hitting coach...... Hard to make a resume with those odds. So that theory/analogy is no better than "some kids can hit some can't".
I like what somebody said" You cannot teach a kid to hit a baseball but you can teach a kid to swing a bat". That is all any of us can really try to do.
BlueDog: If if the hands don't cast out during the swing, when do they, and how do you get the full extension forming the 'V' after contact?
Come to think of it, if you look at the swings of Major Leaguers, the ones that hit the hardest are the ones that have pure rotational mechanics. Bonds, Sosa, Griffey. Bonds has a short swing, Griffey has a long one. If you visit batspeed.com and read all the research Mr. Mankin has done, you'll find that the length of the swing doesn't have anything to do with batspeed. It's all about rotational forces. Maybe BlueDog is right when he says that bat quickness gives the illusion of a short swing. Now what I'm think is that a short swing provides bat control making it easier to make contact-at least for me it does. Same with Bonds. But then take Albert Pujols, his swing is fairly long but he makes great contact too.
So, my argument now is: Everyone is different. What works for you may not work for somebody else. Pujols-long, Bonds-short, Gwynn-linear mechanics, Piazza-rotational mechanics, Nomar-no stride, Paul Molitor-no separation, Ichiro-just plain weird.
Come to think of it, if you look at the swings of Major Leaguers, the ones that hit the hardest are the ones that have pure rotational mechanics. Bonds, Sosa, Griffey. Bonds has a short swing, Griffey has a long one. If you visit batspeed.com and read all the research Mr. Mankin has done, you'll find that the length of the swing doesn't have anything to do with batspeed. It's all about rotational forces. Maybe BlueDog is right when he says that bat quickness gives the illusion of a short swing. Now what I'm think is that a short swing provides bat control making it easier to make contact-at least for me it does. Same with Bonds. But then take Albert Pujols, his swing is fairly long but he makes great contact too.
So, my argument now is: Everyone is different. What works for you may not work for somebody else. Pujols-long, Bonds-short, Gwynn-linear mechanics, Piazza-rotational mechanics, Nomar-no stride, Paul Molitor-no separation, Ichiro-just plain weird.
quote:
Originally posted by swingbuster:
With less than 1 LL player in 10,000- 100,000 making it to the majors you could spend several lifetimes before you had an opportunity to be around one that is destined for stardom. Bad odds for any hitting coach...... Hard to make a resume with those odds. So that theory/analogy is no better than "some kids can hit some can't".
I like what somebody said" You cannot teach a kid to hit a baseball but you can teach a kid to swing a bat". That is all any of us can really try to do.
Swingbuster, If you read the post, it said college or pro ball, not the big leagues. Of course, your answer was very much what I expected.
The teaching the swing thing is a cop out. That way, when the kid does not hit, the "swing coach" can say that he does not teach hitting, only swinging.
Who says that you can't teach a kid to hit a baseball?
Underground, extension after contact isn't necessary, at all.......Once the ball is hit, nothing matters.....
Coach May, garbage is thinking because you have baseball experience means you do it right.....Nothing is farther from the truth than that.....
quote:
Originally posted by BlueDog:
Underground, extension after contact isn't necessary, at all.......Once the ball is hit, nothing matters.....
A HSBBWeb rebuttal:
Underground, comprehension after contact (with a Bluedog post) isnt't necessary, at all....... Once the post is read, nothing matters.....
I think I hear a rat in the attic just above me.... 
Just make sure that if you find that rat and hit it with your broom - dont have any extension after contact. The rat will fly much further. LOL
You know, I almost have more fun reading insults here than playing the game of baseball.
He is right too. Nothing you do after contact will change the way you hit the ball you already hit. But how many hitters in the bigs-including weaker contact only hitters- don't have extension after contact? I believe at batspeed.com it says that at contact all your energy should be put into the swing, and the muscles should be relaxes and in coast mode. The force put into the bat is what keeps the hands going past contact, and by relaxing the arms the bathead will naturally pull the arms through the follow-through, extending them.
BlueDog, do you agree that hitter's get extension after contact when they get their best hits? I notice when I watch replays on TV, well hit grounders, liners, and flies, the hitter has arm extension after contact, but hitters who are fooled or off-timing have weaker swings and sometimes no full extension, such as getting jammed inside and grounding it weakly to the opposite field.
He is right too. Nothing you do after contact will change the way you hit the ball you already hit. But how many hitters in the bigs-including weaker contact only hitters- don't have extension after contact? I believe at batspeed.com it says that at contact all your energy should be put into the swing, and the muscles should be relaxes and in coast mode. The force put into the bat is what keeps the hands going past contact, and by relaxing the arms the bathead will naturally pull the arms through the follow-through, extending them.
BlueDog, do you agree that hitter's get extension after contact when they get their best hits? I notice when I watch replays on TV, well hit grounders, liners, and flies, the hitter has arm extension after contact, but hitters who are fooled or off-timing have weaker swings and sometimes no full extension, such as getting jammed inside and grounding it weakly to the opposite field.
If ALL 600 MLB players retired each year for 20 years and coached youth ball that would be 12000 coaches. Give each one 14 players.
Now you have about 2,830,000 youth ball players out of the 3 million that still don't have a coach. Thats enough left over for BlueDog, Coach May and me to mess up and for years to come.
Considering the Youth Ball pay and benefit package you can always get a job no matter how good/bad you might be.
Now you have about 2,830,000 youth ball players out of the 3 million that still don't have a coach. Thats enough left over for BlueDog, Coach May and me to mess up and for years to come.
Considering the Youth Ball pay and benefit package you can always get a job no matter how good/bad you might be.
Underground, follow-through is a non-teach and what happens is not important....It's not the place to put your efforts to determine what happens, IMO......
A good hitting coach doesn't teach someone to hit. He teaches them to understand their swing and the ability to "fix" their swing when the coach isn't there (i.e. in the batter's box).
BlueDog, go to your local LL and take the worst kid in the League and teach him how to hit. Run him through your drills, video anaylsis, etc. and see if he can make the HS team after you are done with him in a few years.
This is not a put down but for you to insinuate that anyone can learn to hit AND apply it is ludicrous. Guys like Mankin can analyze hitting all day long but can't hit water if they fell out of a boat. Hitting happens in real life, not in a lab.
BlueDog, go to your local LL and take the worst kid in the League and teach him how to hit. Run him through your drills, video anaylsis, etc. and see if he can make the HS team after you are done with him in a few years.
This is not a put down but for you to insinuate that anyone can learn to hit AND apply it is ludicrous. Guys like Mankin can analyze hitting all day long but can't hit water if they fell out of a boat. Hitting happens in real life, not in a lab.
quote:
Originally posted by Coach May:
.. We have had some really good hitters over the years come through our program. We have never taken credit for their success because quite honestly we had nothing really to claim... The only thing we can take credit for is the fact that we didnt let our ego get in the way and try to change them into guys that could not hit. If you listen to some of the people on this site you can tell that they are text book baseball guys. They try to convince people that they know the game by mumbo jumbo lingo. All this complicated jargon is garbage intended to mask the fact that they have no real baseball experience to draw upon in the first place.
Coach May usually posts good ideas. But, it's always a red flag to me when someone attacks the messenger instead of the message.
What does it mean, when, instead of directing his energy toward cleaning up his profession, ridding the system of incompetent coaches, he would rather attack the people talking about the incompetence?
1.) He doesn't care. As long as there are bad coaches out there he's going to have a good record.
2.) He doesn't believe there are many bad coaches out there.
3.) If he ruffles feathers, maybe he'll be plucked.
4.) What difference does it make if a few kids don't get good instruction?
Coach May
The incompetence of high school coaches can not be disputed by reasonable people. Yes, there are good ones. They are outnumbered at least 5 to 1 if not 100 to 1. And that is why instructors (good or bad) can have success.
Because little or none is given at the high school level.
Finally, how many of those good hitters that you've had had their careers come to an early end because you didn't try to fix something you knew was wrong in their swings? Do you wonder what would've been if you'd have interfered earlier when they had a better chance of fixing it?
i am going to have to come to coach may's defense her. i don't know how things are in texas but in north carolina i believe that the good high school coaches far outnumber the bad ones. yes we still have some baseball positions filled by football coaches needing extra money but these are fewer and farther apart, than what they use to be.
Coach May,
I am a lab geek and proud of it! There's nothing wrong with analysis if it doesn't interfere with performance. I would'nt teach a kid on a technical basis. I would hope to help him optimize his potential with what skills/mechanics he has. There is a distinct advantage to having a method of approach that isn't based on superstition and tradition, but on trial and error with as many variables controled as possible.
The "lab" for this experiment is batting practice. Results can be measured.
But then again, why bother. If kids that can hit can, and those who can't end up with lab geeks like me. Welcome to the dark ages.
Steve
If some of these posts were representative of this entire site, why would someone ever want to contribute anything?
“Big Leaguing” contributors or accusing someone who writes something about hitting that he deems as sounding technical and automatically deeming them as wrecking kids is not a great way to promote dialogue on this site.
It’s tough enough to demonstrate hitting in person, let alone in a few paragraphs of written words even in the rare event you know what you are doing.
I think it’s pretty safe to assume that most “coaches” cannot teach a player to swing like a pro since there are a whole lot of kids in high school and college whose swing fundamentals are terribly weak and are easily exploited by higher level pitching. Most of the breakdowns I observe are players not able to keep their weight and hands back on the off speed and still get their hands through on inside heat.
Young kids who are first taught to hit by their little league fathers are taught to step into the ball and throw that heavy bat at the ball. Most of the coaches from that point on simply reinforce that technique. Some of these kids who are labeled “natural” hitters are successful because they have exceptional bat speed and are facing weak pitching. “Natural” hitters who do not have sound fundamentals eventually reach a level where success does not come natural.
Hitters that have success at the highest level have somewhere along the way been taught or through osmosis have acquired some swing “absolutes”. Most likely they were fortunate to have had someone along the way undo some of the things that other average players continue to do. And the sooner the better because even the best hitting instructors in the country struggle to teach a kid how to hit if they haven’t been taught soundly at an early age. But it doesn’t keep the organizations from continually spending time trying to teach a kid that can’t hit, to try to hit.
“Big Leaguing” contributors or accusing someone who writes something about hitting that he deems as sounding technical and automatically deeming them as wrecking kids is not a great way to promote dialogue on this site.
It’s tough enough to demonstrate hitting in person, let alone in a few paragraphs of written words even in the rare event you know what you are doing.
I think it’s pretty safe to assume that most “coaches” cannot teach a player to swing like a pro since there are a whole lot of kids in high school and college whose swing fundamentals are terribly weak and are easily exploited by higher level pitching. Most of the breakdowns I observe are players not able to keep their weight and hands back on the off speed and still get their hands through on inside heat.
Young kids who are first taught to hit by their little league fathers are taught to step into the ball and throw that heavy bat at the ball. Most of the coaches from that point on simply reinforce that technique. Some of these kids who are labeled “natural” hitters are successful because they have exceptional bat speed and are facing weak pitching. “Natural” hitters who do not have sound fundamentals eventually reach a level where success does not come natural.
Hitters that have success at the highest level have somewhere along the way been taught or through osmosis have acquired some swing “absolutes”. Most likely they were fortunate to have had someone along the way undo some of the things that other average players continue to do. And the sooner the better because even the best hitting instructors in the country struggle to teach a kid how to hit if they haven’t been taught soundly at an early age. But it doesn’t keep the organizations from continually spending time trying to teach a kid that can’t hit, to try to hit.
SBK...nice job 
There is more than one type of talent. Physical talent is very important but possibly even more important is the ability to learn. There are hitters who learn how to hit based on the feedback they get from success or failure at the plate. A "swing" coach can provide them with a good foundation but they really end up teaching themselves to hit. In the past many of these kids got their foundation by imitating big league players, quirks and all, but in the end they learned how to hit based on feedback at the plate.
Not every kid is great at this. For example my son only has so-so body awareness. He does have a great deal of persistance and can learn through getting a lot of repetitions. At the same time when he slips into bad habits he doesn't correct them as quickly as some others. In the long run he is probably more suited to being a pitcher if he ends up having a good enough arm.
Not every kid is great at this. For example my son only has so-so body awareness. He does have a great deal of persistance and can learn through getting a lot of repetitions. At the same time when he slips into bad habits he doesn't correct them as quickly as some others. In the long run he is probably more suited to being a pitcher if he ends up having a good enough arm.
SBK QUOTE: Hitters that have success at the highest level have somewhere along the way been taught or through osmosis have acquired some swing “absolutes”. Most likely they were fortunate to have had someone along the way undo some of the things that other average players continue to do. And the sooner the better because even the best hitting instructors in the country struggle to teach a kid how to hit if they haven’t been taught soundly at an early age. But it doesn’t keep the organizations from continually spending time trying to teach a kid that can’t hit, to try to hit.[/QUOTE]
-----------------------------------------------
Most good hitters have been taught some absolutes about "hitting" more so than swinging.Most teenagers don't have a good plan when in the box. Without an idea, it won't matter what kind of swing you have. There are lots of swing coaches, but very few hitting coaches.
-----------------------------------------------
Most good hitters have been taught some absolutes about "hitting" more so than swinging.Most teenagers don't have a good plan when in the box. Without an idea, it won't matter what kind of swing you have. There are lots of swing coaches, but very few hitting coaches.
I would think that bbscouts point about "having a plan" becomes even more critical when you are facing higher levels of pitching.
Without a plan at the plate - you have one foot in the grave before the first pitch is even thrown.
And having a plan involves more than just understanding/knowing the particular pitcher you are facing - or the hitting situation you find yourself in. It has alot to do with confidence as well IMO. And knowing your hot hitting spots and your weak hitting spots.
I think that - besides some pure ability, some hard work and your "plan" - the confidence factor is critical.
Without a plan at the plate - you have one foot in the grave before the first pitch is even thrown.
And having a plan involves more than just understanding/knowing the particular pitcher you are facing - or the hitting situation you find yourself in. It has alot to do with confidence as well IMO. And knowing your hot hitting spots and your weak hitting spots.
I think that - besides some pure ability, some hard work and your "plan" - the confidence factor is critical.
Itsinthegame, you mean like the little red engine who said, I think I can, I think I can?....
And, you say pure ability?.....Is there unpure ability?........
And, you say pure ability?.....Is there unpure ability?........
The little red engine?
How about Little Miss Muffett and the spider?
Or the old lady and the shoe?
Seriously - at what point do you stop babbling?
How about Little Miss Muffett and the spider?
Or the old lady and the shoe?
Seriously - at what point do you stop babbling?
Moi, babble?????
You should be ashamed to babble such a thing.....
You should be ashamed to babble such a thing.....
