Conflicting Off-Season Training Between H.S. and Elsewhere

Dude, you have way too many crazy questions, and by this I mean it doesn’t sound like your son had even played an inning of high school ball and you are conflicted out the wazoo over virtually every aspect of his involvement and it sounds like you want to control EVERYTHING. You may be better served by homeschooling your son and just having him play travelball. 

FWIW, most high school aged travel ball players stop participating with their club teams at the end of December usually because it conflicts with the HS program, and in most instances is forbidden by rules of the high school interscholastic bodies that govern the sports, in an effort to keep parents and kids from having to make this very decision and to keep kids from being ran into the ground.

my advice to you is take a deep breath, your son will be fine without your micromanagement of every aspect of his participation. At least your posts are entertaining to read, to see what the heck scenario you will dream up next!

2022OF DAD - I'm not conflicted, etc.  But, thanks for your concern.  More so, I've heard of situations where people had conflicts and I was CURIOUS as to how these were usually handled.  Just making conversation in a discussion forum.  That's all.  No need for anyone to call 911 on my behalf.

Just take a deep breath. Millions of kids have walked this path before and come out fine. Most guys taper back on the individual gym time a bit because of the time commitment required for practice and games. As a parent, you need to be the voice of reason/sanity for your son. Sometimes less is more, especially during the season. 

My answer may not help....as my son's HS had no off season workouts of any kind...other than some throwing/hitting.   No strength training or lifting.  First of all, your son can't train 3 days on his own or with a trainer, then 3 days with his HS team....that's not an option physically for a 15 year old kid.   I would say that if your son is working with a trainer, then talk to the coach and see what he thinks.  He may have some specific things he'd like to see the trainer have your son doing.....or he may want the kid to be with his teammates.  He may just say I don't care....as long as you're doing it somewhere.   The only way to find out is to have your son ask him.    

Have your son talk to his HS coach. He can tell his coach what he is doing with his travel team. The coach and then tell him what he thinks about it. "Sounds good. I am glad your getting in some work. Go to your travel team stuff and make our stuff when you can." or "Just make sure you are present for all of our stuff and get in the work with your travel team when you can." By going to his HS coach and talking to him face to face he can find out what the HS coach thinks about it. He can find out exactly where he stands and then do what he needs to do. 

Every program is different. Every coach is different. Me personally I would be happy a player was working and doing everything he can to get better. Make our stuff when you can. Go do your other stuff when you can. Be ready to compete day 1. I would also appreciate the player coming to me and talking to me. When I get a text from a players parent asking me questions like this and I do, I always wonder "Come on man. Your in HS now. I'm right here, talk to me."

Coach_May posted:

Have your son talk to his HS coach. He can tell his coach what he is doing with his travel team. The coach and then tell him what he thinks about it. "Sounds good. I am glad your getting in some work. Go to your travel team stuff and make our stuff when you can." or "Just make sure you are present for all of our stuff and get in the work with your travel team when you can." By going to his HS coach and talking to him face to face he can find out what the HS coach thinks about it. He can find out exactly where he stands and then do what he needs to do. 

Every program is different. Every coach is different. Me personally I would be happy a player was working and doing everything he can to get better. Make our stuff when you can. Go do your other stuff when you can. Be ready to compete day 1. I would also appreciate the player coming to me and talking to me. When I get a text from a players parent asking me questions like this and I do, I always wonder "Come on man. Your in HS now. I'm right here, talk to me."

To me, this would be the perfect way to handle it.

Do everything with the HS. Travel ball takes a backseat to HS baseball as soon as the school year starts and as soon as the school year ends. You don't want your son to be that kid who is missing his HS practices (optional or not) to go to his club team events. Do whatever you want in the summer. The travel ball winter training thing isn't necessary when the HS is hosting their own. Either don't pay for it or double up on the training. 

Until there an issue you don’t worry about it. You don’t even think about it. My son entered high school as a three sport athlete. We expected conflicts. But we waited for the potential issue to arise before addressing it. Each coach had a beginning of the year team meeting with players and parents on expectations. 

The baseball program had fall ball and winter after school workouts. The coach’s attitude was show up for the first day of tryouts in mid season form. Fall ball and winter workouts were available tools to be ready. The coach pointed out off season programs were absolutely optional. But he added they are an opportunity to influence the coaching staff. He meant with talent not just by showing up. 

There were 5:45am workouts twice a week in the fall and winter for athletes playing other sports. My son didn’t miss one as a freshman. 

Fall of soph year he played fall ball for the high school even though he couldn’t make fall after school practices. At the end of fall ball the coach told him tryouts were a formality. He was going to be the starting shortstop.

Despite being the starting freshman point guard and considered by some to make the varsity rotation soph year the basketball coach cut him for missing all optional team activities and not playing in the high school summer league. Different coach, different attitude. The baseball coach was a two sport athlete in high school. The basketball coach wasn’t. 

But stop worrying about what hasn’t happened. Be careful with “I heard” stories. Many are biased and twisted.

My son’s travel teams never did anything that interfered with school ball. In fact, the travel team Jan and Feb once a week workouts on Sunday night were for prepping for school ball. I coached through the kids being age fifteen in 16u. I told them if necessary give fall ball preference to the high school team. 

The soccer coach was all over my son for not playing elite summer soccer. He appeased him by attending an elite goalie day camp in the summer. 

PABaseball posted:

Do everything with the HS. Travel ball takes a backseat to HS baseball as soon as the school year starts and as soon as the school year ends. You don't want your son to be that kid who is missing his HS practices (optional or not) to go to his club team events. Do whatever you want in the summer. The travel ball winter training thing isn't necessary when the HS is hosting their own. Either don't pay for it or double up on the training. 

With us the caveat to this was strength training. My son has been on a program for over a year, with on/off season programming, etc. This year after fall ball was done (his HS plays a fall schedule) the coach brought in a cross-fit coach (one of the teachers) to do an off season program with the players. While it was nice to see the coach/school try and do something (they previously hadn't), my son and other kids spoke to the coach and he was ok with them doing their own thing.

Strength and conditioning training for high school includes important aspects of team building and leadership so I would align yourself with the school program first. I think you will find that high quality personal trainers which are baseball specific will have better equipment and better techniques than what's offered by the school. I would take the details of the high school program to your personal trainer and look for ways to feasibly supplement it without over training.  Doing it this way makes it easier to stay connected with the personal trainer during the school off season.

I will play devil’s advocate on one thing.  (Is that the right expression?)

Off-season is when you should be making your strength and conditioning gains.  It’s a very important time in the development of the athlete.  And, if the kid is working with a personal trainer who has devised a personal program JUST FOR HIM that addresses areas of specific weakness to be improved while also working on the rest of his conditioning, I would think it’s better for the player to focus on THAT than to partake in the cookie-cutter school program of “Bench, squat, press, curl, dead lift, repeat” (assuming that’s what the school is doing). 

Doesn't matter what you or your son or your trainer thinks. Son needs to communicate with the HS coach and go from there. If the coach is against the idea of training on your own, then you need to listen to what he is telling you or suffer the consequences. HS is all about the team at what the coach thinks is best for his team.  

Francis7 posted:

I will play devil’s advocate on one thing.  (Is that the right expression?)

Off-season is when you should be making your strength and conditioning gains.  It’s a very important time in the development of the athlete.  And, if the kid is working with a personal trainer who has devised a personal program JUST FOR HIM that addresses areas of specific weakness to be improved while also working on the rest of his conditioning, I would think it’s better for the player to focus on THAT than to partake in the cookie-cutter school program of “Bench, squat, press, curl, dead lift, repeat” (assuming that’s what the school is doing). 

If a kid works out in a forest and the coach never sees him does he make a noise? 

Yes, your son can throw all his chips in on a three day spring tryout. Is it the best option? 

My son was the best player both years on his middle school team. The varsity coach knew who he was. He had him at a couple of high school practices in 8th grade. As a middle school teacher he had lunch with my son and talked baseball at least once a month. My son still did everything possible to make himself visible in the offseason in high school.

Even after becoming a starter he showed up at high school fall ball games when it didn’t interfere with travel. He didn’t expect to play. He was there to cheerlead and be a leader. What he never did was give the impression he was a prima donna with his own, better plan. 

Francis7 posted:

I will play devil’s advocate on one thing.  (Is that the right expression?)

Off-season is when you should be making your strength and conditioning gains.  It’s a very important time in the development of the athlete.  And, if the kid is working with a personal trainer who has devised a personal program JUST FOR HIM that addresses areas of specific weakness to be improved while also working on the rest of his conditioning, I would think it’s better for the player to focus on THAT than to partake in the cookie-cutter school program of “Bench, squat, press, curl, dead lift, repeat” (assuming that’s what the school is doing). 

The error in that thought process is, as many others have referenced, failing to consider the "team" factor and what the HS coach' guidelines and requirements may be.  If your son wishes to be part of the HS program and team, this is obviously very important.  

As others have said, each program is different.  For our program, the guidelines regarding Winter conditioning, for example, was that if the player was not involved in a winter sport, he was expected to attend every one of our workouts, just as he would be for our in-season practices.  If the player was working with a trainer or instructor, we would talk and map out a plan that would allow him to maximize both during the off-season (with proper consideration to safety and health).  Once in-season practice began, full participation in team practices/workouts is expected, with the only exception being maybe leaving a practice slightly early if the only private lesson time available necessitated it.  There was ample communication - everyone on the team knew that the team came first and was aware of the thought process behind those exceptions... to help everyone be the best player they could be while making clear commitment to one another with TEAM as priority #1.

I see those points.  Totally makes sense if the rest of the team is rowing along in unison. 

Don’t worry about what the rest of the team is doing. Jump in and start rowing!

nycdad posted:

PABaseball posted:

Do everything with the HS. Travel ball takes a backseat to HS baseball as soon as the school year starts and as soon as the school year ends. You don't want your son to be that kid who is missing his HS practices (optional or not) to go to his club team events. Do whatever you want in the summer. The travel ball winter training thing isn't necessary when the HS is hosting their own. Either don't pay for it or double up on the training. 

With us the caveat to this was strength training. My son has been on a program for over a year, with on/off season programming, etc. This year after fall ball was done (his HS plays a fall schedule) the coach brought in a cross-fit coach (one of the teachers) to do an off season program with the players. While it was nice to see the coach/school try and do something (they previously hadn't), my son and other kids spoke to the coach and he was ok with them doing their own thing.

Yeah strength training is a little different. I assumed they were doing baseball specific strength and conditioning , but it doesn't matter. HS that require anything in the offseason are silly. You have to play for this travel team or have to train here with these people. Offer it, but don't force it. I would want to do as much with the school as possible to avoid being that kid. 

Ryno put school first, and travel second, and it wouldn't have been well received if he had not pursued that avenue.  It was drilled in pretty well that the school team came first.  

Obviously you are going to get advice from individuals on this board, based on their own personal experiences. It is always easy for someone to suggest that you curtail all other training and jump on board the school off-season training, if their son had a good experience following said plan. However, in my experience and in reading so many others experiences, high school baseball performance (strength, speed, etc.) training is not very good and in some cases can be downright dangerous.

If that were ever to be the case in your situation, then I would try to get a copy of the program or have your son take pics/notes of exercise selection, sets/reps, etc., and then share that info with personal trainer. A good personal trainer will coach up an athlete in regards to proper technique for exercises that he/she does incorporate (such as straight-bar bench) and add standard movements and pre-hab to help balance out training program and minimize injury. I would also make sure that your son shares that he is getting in some extra work outside of school but that his trainer is working around the HS program.

I have seen countless athletes use the above recommendations with out getting into hot water with HS coaches! 

PABaseball posted:

.. HS that require anything in the offseason are silly. You have to play for this travel team or have to train here with these people. Offer it, but don't force it. .... 

PABaseball, it has proven to be anything but silly for our program.  We are a small/medium public school in a league full of bigger schools.  We start conditioning late November.  As i said before, we require any kid who is not playing winter sports to be there.  We ramp up arms and overall conditioning with a heavy slant toward baseball-specific conditioning.  This time also enables us to inject some other aspects of baseball specific work that we would not otherwise be able to do until actual practice season starts, which would otherwise leave only about 3-4 weeks to prepare for the season.  As with most schools our size, if not required to attend, too many kids in the program would choose to do little or nothing to improve their baseball skills, conditioning and arm strength.   This is one of the key elements that helped us turn the program around many years ago and maintain success.

The kids who are motivated and do extra work/lessons/strength and conditioning on their own are not the issue.  The issue is the rest of the group.  "Optional" does not work well.  It can work for bigger schools with higher numbers of dedicated players but usually not for smaller to medium size programs where the bottom tier of roster players will be a particular weakness if you let it be.  At the same time, the foundation for having a team concept must be laid with all team functions.  So, a balance has to be struck when dealing with those who are doing the extra outside work.

Doing things this way has provided a system where there is reasonable strength and depth in the program and it is competitive year in and year out against bigger schools and we avoid much of the ebbs and flows of talent pools that public schools our size generally experience.  In the end, all the players benefit and appreciate the structure that is in place.

cabbagedad posted:

PABaseball posted:

.. HS that require anything in the offseason are silly. You have to play for this travel team or have to train here with these people. Offer it, but don't force it. .... 

PABaseball, it has proven to be anything but silly for our program.  We are a small/medium public school in a league full of bigger schools.  We start conditioning late November.  As i said before, we require any kid who is not playing winter sports to be there.  We ramp up arms and overall conditioning with a heavy slant toward baseball-specific conditioning.  This time also enables us to inject some other aspects of baseball specific work that we would not otherwise be able to do until actual practice season starts, which would otherwise leave only about 3-4 weeks to prepare for the season.  As with most schools our size, if not required to attend, too many kids in the program would choose to do little or nothing to improve their baseball skills, conditioning and arm strength.   This is one of the key elements that helped us turn the program around many years ago and maintain success.

The kids who are motivated and do extra work/lessons/strength and conditioning on their own are not the issue.  The issue is the rest of the group.  "Optional" does not work well.  It can work for bigger schools with higher numbers of dedicated players but usually not for smaller to medium size programs where the bottom tier of roster players will be a particular weakness if you let it be.  At the same time, the foundation for having a team concept must be laid with all team functions.  So, a balance has to be struck when dealing with those who are doing the extra outside work.

Doing things this way has provided a system where there is reasonable strength and depth in the program and it is competitive year in and year out against bigger schools and we avoid much of the ebbs and flows of talent pools that public schools our size generally experience.  In the end, all the players benefit and appreciate the structure that is in place.

I agree with you. I was more referring to playing with a certain travel team or being required to workout at this place for this amount. Forcing your players to pay 3000 for the summer to play on the Northeast Extreme or Southwest Cobras is silly. Forcing your players to attend winter workouts at a facility for $800 for 10 weeks is where you lose me. It's the shady business and the ethics that I don't like when HS coaches flaunt the power to cut and keep. 

I never required anyone to be at our conditioning program.  Simply put, everyone knew that if they didn't, they'd lose their positions because their competition would be bigger, quicker and stronger.  I think some may remember me posting about this back in the day.  We started at 6 in the morning.  We lifted, did a plyo program, and one day a week hit.  We were never allowed to throw a ball due to some perception by my AD that we would be violating rules.  So, we threw footballs.  We easily put 30 kids in that gym.  They celebrated the day when the entire group finally completed the plyo program without anyone throwing up.  It was intense.  As CabbageDad pointed out, we are a small school and we play a huge school schedule.   The team bonding that went on was amazing.  When we would begin each year, there would be tears and when we would finish, there were kids walking around that school with abs like you have never seen and we were fast fast.  To this day, I love those kids and admire them for what they did.  

CoachB25 posted:

I never required anyone to be at our conditioning program.  Simply put, everyone knew that if they didn't, they'd lose their positions because their competition would be bigger, quicker and stronger.  I think some may remember me posting about this back in the day.  We started at 6 in the morning.  We lifted, did a plyo program, and one day a week hit.  We were never allowed to throw a ball due to some perception by my AD that we would be violating rules.  So, we threw footballs.  We easily put 30 kids in that gym.  They celebrated the day when the entire group finally completed the plyo program without anyone throwing up.  It was intense.  As CabbageDad pointed out, we are a small school and we play a huge school schedule.   The team bonding that went on was amazing.  When we would begin each year, there would be tears and when we would finish, there were kids walking around that school with abs like you have never seen and we were fast fast.  To this day, I love those kids and admire them for what they did.  

You started at 6 am during the school year?  Gotta admit, my first thought is about what that did for your players' grades...  Sure, plenty of kids used to have a morning paper route (I did for a while) or had to milk the cows before school.  But getting teenaged boys up in time to be at the gym by 6:00, working them out until they puke, then sending them to math class...?

Chico Escuela posted:

CoachB25 posted:

I never required anyone to be at our conditioning program.  Simply put, everyone knew that if they didn't, they'd lose their positions because their competition would be bigger, quicker and stronger.  I think some may remember me posting about this back in the day.  We started at 6 in the morning.  We lifted, did a plyo program, and one day a week hit.  We were never allowed to throw a ball due to some perception by my AD that we would be violating rules.  So, we threw footballs.  We easily put 30 kids in that gym.  They celebrated the day when the entire group finally completed the plyo program without anyone throwing up.  It was intense.  As CabbageDad pointed out, we are a small school and we play a huge school schedule.   The team bonding that went on was amazing.  When we would begin each year, there would be tears and when we would finish, there were kids walking around that school with abs like you have never seen and we were fast fast.  To this day, I love those kids and admire them for what they did.  

You started at 6 am during the school year?  Gotta admit, my first thought is about what that did for your players' grades...  Sure, plenty of kids used to have a morning paper route (I did for a while) or had to milk the cows before school.  But getting teenaged boys up in time to be at the gym by 6:00, working them out until they puke, then sending them to math class...?

6a. You guys are lazy. During tryout week my kids ex HS held tryouts at 5am. They underwent a renovation years back and had limited field house space (we are in the north so tryouts are indoors). It’s since been corrected and there is enough space.  But the year they had to hold early morning tryouts we won the state championship. Now 7 years later the tradition holds. If you want it bad enough you show up. 

joes87 posted:

Chico Escuela posted:

CoachB25 posted:

 

 

6a. You guys are lazy. During tryout week my kids ex HS held tryouts at 5am. They underwent a renovation years back and had limited field house space (we are in the north so tryouts are indoors). It’s since been corrected and there is enough space.  But the year they had to hold early morning tryouts we won the state championship. Now 7 years later the tradition holds. If you want it bad enough you show up. 

Again, I’d like to know what happened to baseball players’ GPA as a result of this schedule. Maybe they were all forced to really focus and manage their time well and so they actually improved. Maybe. But school should come first and as a parent I’d be concerned about whether my teenager could manage this commitment without hurting his schoolwork.  Many kids could not. 

Chico, typically, I had some of the best students in school.  I really don't think that I hurt any player's GPA by wanting them to show up at 6 but the facts are, they had parents who could say no and I didn't make it mandatory.  In fact, I had a couple of Valedictorians who did this.  So we are all clear, I made the weightlifting, plyos, hitting available.  I also got up early to do so.  If they wanted to show up fine.  They did because so many showed up.  We had track players show up for the plyos as well.  

Chico, I was trying to change the culture of a team and school.  When I came here, they were known for losing in just about every sport.  I did this while also coaching basketball.  Have you ever coached basketball?  I scouted almost every night that we didn't have a game.  I often watched game film until I passed out.  Still, I got there.  The kids knew my sacrifices.  They were willing to step up and we became a force.  We beat all of the big dogs.  As important was the fact that when these players went off to play in college, they were already doing college lifting and plyo programs.  

Joe, I know I was being lazy.  However, there were many times I didn't leave school until after midnight.  So, there was that.  LOL  

CoachB25 posted:

Chico, typically, I had some of the best students in school.  I really don't think that I hurt any player's GPA by wanting them to show up at 6 but the facts are, they had parents who could say no and I didn't make it mandatory.  In fact, I had a couple of Valedictorians who did this.  So we are all clear, I made the weightlifting, plyos, hitting available.  I also got up early to do so.  If they wanted to show up fine.  They did because so many showed up.  We had track players show up for the plyos as well.  

Chico, I was trying to change the culture of a team and school.  When I came here, they were known for losing in just about every sport.  I did this while also coaching basketball.  Have you ever coached basketball?  I scouted almost every night that we didn't have a game.  I often watched game film until I passed out.  Still, I got there.  The kids knew my sacrifices.  They were willing to step up and we became a force.  We beat all of the big dogs.  As important was the fact that when these players went off to play in college, they were already doing college lifting and plyo programs.  

I've coached basketball a few times for 6- to 12-year olds.  Herding cats, basically and didn't require a lot of scouting.  And it was appropriate for my skill and knowledge level of the game.

Not questioning your commitment, Coach.  Or that of your players.  And I don't doubt that some of the kids who were committed to these workouts were great students.  Those who can organize their time and have the willpower to do something like you describe generally do pretty well at whatever they attempt.  In my experience, a disproportionate percentage of endurance sports athletes (rowing, cross country, etc.) go to medical school, which is not just a coincidence. 

I believe you when you say these workouts were voluntary.  I also have to believe those who wanted to play felt some pressure to be there.  (That's not all bad--many of us need a push to do things that are good for us.)  Both my kids usually were better students during their sports seasons, because the demands of practices and games forced them to be organized (and also helped them conk out and sleep well at 10:30 instead of 1:00 a.m.)  But... there also is a point of diminishing returns for that sort of thing.  Kids can get stretched too thin, or just plain lack the maturity/experience to juggle school and other commitments.  Sure, it's parents' responsibility to keep tabs on this.  But unless you are (IMO) a helicopter parent, you don't know your kid is having trouble until you see grades start sliding or otherwise get evidence of damage already done.  A little 'failure' in HS is a good lesson; but a couple of Cs on a report card can be a problem.  (I live in NC.  If a kid wants to go to Chapel Hill these days from an urban HS, even in-state, s/he pretty much needs a 4.0.)  So the point of my rambling post is that I hope coaches don't lose sight of the fact that baseball, while awesome, is secondary to school work.  My son's coaches do a good job of that; I hope CoachB25 did too (and I am not suggesting otherwise).  But it seems to me that 5:00 or 6:00 am workouts on school days ought to be the product of true necessity (like a lack of space at other times), not a badge of honor.

C’s??? My daughter’s words of advice to her brother before he started his freshman year of HS was “B’s are going to kill your chances to get into any school worth going to.” She is currently doing well in college, but not at the college she wanted to be at, primarily because of about 4 B’s!!!

Chico, I think it is not all that uncommon for HS programs to run practices or S&T programs at that time.  Gym time and weight room time is often a challenge when dividing among all the boys and girls teams, V, JV and sometimes frosh.  

My son couldn’t attend baseball workouts after school due to playing basketball. So twice a week he was up at 5am and at the gym door at 5:45 when the coach showed up. He worked out on his own in the garage a couple more days per week before school. He was in the gifted program. The long days had zero negative impact on his grades.

What it did do is make the college demands seem not so hard with baseball and majoring in Economics with a concentration in Quaritative Analytics.

My daughter said the time demands of law school was a piece of cake after softball and a STEM major.

School/coach based workouts are not allowed in CT, so we have to pay for "captain" led offseason workouts at an outside facility. 

Yeah CT and thanks CIAC!! Hate this fkn state...

RJM posted:

My son couldn’t attend baseball workouts after school due to playing basketball. So twice a week he was up at 5am and at the gym door at 5:45 when the coach showed up. He worked out on his own in the garage a couple more days per week before school. He was in the gifted program. The long days had zero negative impact on his grades.

What it did do is make the college demands seem not so hard with baseball and majoring in Economics with a concentration in Quaritative Analytics.

My daughter said the time demands of law school was a piece of cake after softball and a STEM major.

RJM, I never argued that no kid could manage 5 am workouts.  Clearly some do and thrive on it.  It sounds as though your kids were great students and had a lot of self-discipline from an early age.  But not every player on most HS baseball teams has what it takes to become an astronaut or a brain surgeon (and some who could don't show the requisite self-discipline at age 16 or 17).  I'm all for pushing kids to perform at their best, but as a parent I'd be concerned if my son or daughter's HS team wanted them at school before dawn on a weekday on a regular basis.  Maybe that schedule is unavoidable (which I acknowledged above might be the case sometimes), but I'd be concerned about athletics interfering with academics.  

Chico Escuela posted:

RJM posted:

My son couldn’t attend baseball workouts after school due to playing basketball. So twice a week he was up at 5am and at the gym door at 5:45 when the coach showed up. He worked out on his own in the garage a couple more days per week before school. He was in the gifted program. The long days had zero negative impact on his grades.

What it did do is make the college demands seem not so hard with baseball and majoring in Economics with a concentration in Quaritative Analytics.

My daughter said the time demands of law school was a piece of cake after softball and a STEM major.

RJM, I never argued that no kid could manage 5 am workouts.  Clearly some do and thrive on it.  It sounds as though your kids were great students and had a lot of self-discipline from an early age.  But not every player on most HS baseball teams has what it takes to become an astronaut or a brain surgeon (and some who could don't show the requisite self-discipline at age 16 or 17).  I'm all for pushing kids to perform at their best, but as a parent I'd be concerned if my son or daughter's HS team wanted them at school before dawn on a weekday on a regular basis.  Maybe that schedule is unavoidable (which I acknowledged above might be the case sometimes), but I'd be concerned about athletics interfering with academics.  

All it takes is not screwing around in study halls to lighten the load in the evening and going to bed at an appropriate time to get enough sleep.

RJM posted:

Chico Escuela posted:

RJM posted:

My son couldn’t attend baseball workouts after school due to playing basketball. So twice a week he was up at 5am and at the gym door at 5:45 when the coach showed up. He worked out on his own in the garage a couple more days per week before school. He was in the gifted program. The long days had zero negative impact on his grades.

What it did do is make the college demands seem not so hard with baseball and majoring in Economics with a concentration in Quaritative Analytics.

My daughter said the time demands of law school was a piece of cake after softball and a STEM major.

RJM, I never argued that no kid could manage 5 am workouts.  Clearly some do and thrive on it.  It sounds as though your kids were great students and had a lot of self-discipline from an early age.  But not every player on most HS baseball teams has what it takes to become an astronaut or a brain surgeon (and some who could don't show the requisite self-discipline at age 16 or 17).  I'm all for pushing kids to perform at their best, but as a parent I'd be concerned if my son or daughter's HS team wanted them at school before dawn on a weekday on a regular basis.  Maybe that schedule is unavoidable (which I acknowledged above might be the case sometimes), but I'd be concerned about athletics interfering with academics.  

All it takes is not screwing around in study halls to lighten the load in the evening and going to bed at an appropriate time to get enough sleep.

You are operating from the assumption that you are dealing with a kid who is mature enough (and a good enough student) to understand this reasoning and act on it.  Some kids won't figure that out, even with their parents on their cases.  If working out at zero-dark hundred isn't necessary, why create the added degree of difficulty for those kids who might not handle it well?  For that matter, why turn an A-minus into a B-plus because a kid is drowsy in class, if there is no need? 

I say this as the parent of two kids who did very well academically while also playing multiple varsity sports.  Could they have managed 5 a.m. workouts?  Probably...    But I wouldn't expect them to do that--or their coaches to schedule workouts then-- unless there was some specific reason it was necessary.  Your answer was that your kid--who sounds like an unusually good student and very disciplined--chose to do that.  I believe you, and I believe he benefited from it.  But I don't think that's responsive to the point I'm making.  

Chico Escuela posted:

RJM posted:

Chico Escuela posted:

RJM posted:

My son couldn’t attend baseball workouts after school due to playing basketball. So twice a week he was up at 5am and at the gym door at 5:45 when the coach showed up. He worked out on his own in the garage a couple more days per week before school. He was in the gifted program. The long days had zero negative impact on his grades.

What it did do is make the college demands seem not so hard with baseball and majoring in Economics with a concentration in Quaritative Analytics.

My daughter said the time demands of law school was a piece of cake after softball and a STEM major.

RJM, I never argued that no kid could manage 5 am workouts.  Clearly some do and thrive on it.  It sounds as though your kids were great students and had a lot of self-discipline from an early age.  But not every player on most HS baseball teams has what it takes to become an astronaut or a brain surgeon (and some who could don't show the requisite self-discipline at age 16 or 17).  I'm all for pushing kids to perform at their best, but as a parent I'd be concerned if my son or daughter's HS team wanted them at school before dawn on a weekday on a regular basis.  Maybe that schedule is unavoidable (which I acknowledged above might be the case sometimes), but I'd be concerned about athletics interfering with academics.  

All it takes is not screwing around in study halls to lighten the load in the evening and going to bed at an appropriate time to get enough sleep.

You are operating from the assumption that you are dealing with a kid who is mature enough (and a good enough student) to understand this reasoning and act on it.  Some kids won't figure that out, even with their parents on their cases.  If working out at zero-dark hundred isn't necessary, why create the added degree of difficulty for those kids who might not handle it well?  For that matter, why turn an A-minus into a B-plus because a kid is drowsy in class, if there is no need? 

I say this as the parent of two kids who did very well academically while also playing multiple varsity sports.  Could they have managed 5 a.m. workouts?  Probably...    But I wouldn't expect them to do that--or their coaches to schedule workouts then-- unless there was some specific reason it was necessary.  Your answer was that your kid--who sounds like an unusually good student and very disciplined--chose to do that.  I believe you, and I believe he benefited from it.  But I don't think that's responsive to the point I'm making.  

What happens when a kid gets to college ball and is expected to be working out before classes? His parents aren’t there to bug him to get up. His college coach will probably comment once about missing a workout before moving on to the next player. 

College athletics and academics are a full time job. No one stands over the player’s shoulder telling him what to do. The only thing a college kid is told is “go home” if he’s not self disciplined enough to get everything done. 

I would argue pre school high school practices are good for future college athletes. They get in the mode with supervision and a kick in the rear. 

Son is a freshman right now. 

You have to get buy in from the HS coach, or you are just skiing up hill.

Coach is really understanding with his other work.  This is the 2nd one of ours to come through the school (1st one is a Sr. P at a D1). 

Those that work secondarily sort of "get a pass" to do complementary work at school.  When 1st one went through some kids complained that a few who worked with outside trainers didn't work as hard as they did.  Coach had those kids lead the team in their workouts 2/3 times................needless to say the grumbling stopped.

In the fall our boy....

School starts at 7:45.  He gets home from school plus after school baseball workouts at around 5:15 (school is over at 3:45 and baseball class is 2:50-3:45).  After school is voluntary for the varsity, but 9/10 players are pretty solid attendees.  This is where they do the baseball workout (core, speed, etc) and/or long toss. He then has 1 1/2 hour to eat, do some homework, play video games, etc before speed training (60 minutes) and/or yoga (60 minutes).  Batting lessons are on Monday evenings at 9.  If he has any other homework, he does it on his laptop while we are enroute.  Hopefully in bed by 10:30 after a good protein shake.  Fridays and Sundays are rest days.  Saturday is fun yoga day.  So he is getting plenty of rest.  He knows that Saturday's and Sunday's are days to get ahead of school work if necessary.  He has plenty of social time (wife says "too much") and he is making 7 A's and 2 B's for the semester.

Spring semester starts, and baseball practice starts January 25th and goes 2:45-5:30ish (mostly field work).  Worry about him losing some of the strength that he'll have gained during the fall and being able to maintain it through the summer (of 13 weekends of travel, so we'll probably have him at school early doing some weights on non game days, and continue some sort of speed/yoga on non game nights.

  Good luck in your preparation, and always remember "LUCK IS WHEN PREPARATION MEETS OPPORTUNITY".

RJM posted:

Chico Escuela posted:

RJM posted:

Chico Escuela posted:

RJM posted:

My son couldn’t attend baseball workouts after school due to playing basketball. So twice a week he was up at 5am and at the gym door at 5:45 when the coach showed up. He worked out on his own in the garage a couple more days per week before school. He was in the gifted program. The long days had zero negative impact on his grades.

What it did do is make the college demands seem not so hard with baseball and majoring in Economics with a concentration in Quaritative Analytics.

My daughter said the time demands of law school was a piece of cake after softball and a STEM major.

RJM, I never argued that no kid could manage 5 am workouts.  Clearly some do and thrive on it.  It sounds as though your kids were great students and had a lot of self-discipline from an early age.  But not every player on most HS baseball teams has what it takes to become an astronaut or a brain surgeon (and some who could don't show the requisite self-discipline at age 16 or 17).  I'm all for pushing kids to perform at their best, but as a parent I'd be concerned if my son or daughter's HS team wanted them at school before dawn on a weekday on a regular basis.  Maybe that schedule is unavoidable (which I acknowledged above might be the case sometimes), but I'd be concerned about athletics interfering with academics.  

All it takes is not screwing around in study halls to lighten the load in the evening and going to bed at an appropriate time to get enough sleep.

You are operating from the assumption that you are dealing with a kid who is mature enough (and a good enough student) to understand this reasoning and act on it.  Some kids won't figure that out, even with their parents on their cases.  If working out at zero-dark hundred isn't necessary, why create the added degree of difficulty for those kids who might not handle it well?  For that matter, why turn an A-minus into a B-plus because a kid is drowsy in class, if there is no need? 

I say this as the parent of two kids who did very well academically while also playing multiple varsity sports.  Could they have managed 5 a.m. workouts?  Probably...    But I wouldn't expect them to do that--or their coaches to schedule workouts then-- unless there was some specific reason it was necessary.  Your answer was that your kid--who sounds like an unusually good student and very disciplined--chose to do that.  I believe you, and I believe he benefited from it.  But I don't think that's responsive to the point I'm making.  

What happens when a kid gets to college ball and is expected to be working out before classes? His parents aren’t there to bug him to get up. His college coach will probably comment once about missing a workout before moving on to the next player. 

College athletics and academics are a full time job. No one stands over the player’s shoulder telling him what to do. The only thing a college kid is told is “go home” if he’s not self disciplined enough to get everything done. 

I would argue pre school high school practices are good for future college athletes. They get in the mode with supervision and a kick in the rear. 

 

 

 

This can probably be repeated by many posters here..............

Oldest son was very happy that he learned how to workout and maintain a schedule in HS. 

MWF weightlifting and T/Th running at 6:00am in the fall at his D1 school were not that much of a shock.

His schedule every fall semester:

6:00-7:30 Voluntary Workout

7:30-8:15 clean up / breakfast

8:00-12:00 classes

12:00-1:00 Lunch

1:30-3:00 Voluntary baseball "activity" (yoga / stretching / fielding) with positional captains

3:00-5:00 baseball team practice (only for 6 weeks)

5:00-6:00 Dinner

6:00-7:30 Study Hall (mandatory for Freshman or if you have a 2.5 or less).  He continued this all 3 years as a way to stay ahead

And then spring gets here, and you get to play games, travel, and hopefully win (which all takes more time).  

Could have graduated in this month, but is taking 6 hours of class in the spring to graduate with his class and obviously play ball (General Studies Major / Sociology Minor 3.6 GPA).  Will start Sport Mgmt post grad work in the fall (and live at home???????????????????)  

Don't anyone say that being a college athlete is not a FT job.  I'd say that he is busy more of the day than I am, but I'd also say that the routine that he developed in HS made a lot of his success in the classroom and on the field possible.

K, to support Chico’s argument, aren’t MOST high school baseball players NOT going to be given the opportunity to play college ball? So everyone has to be subjected to the routine for the sake of the guys aspiring or knowing they will play college ball? I know my sons HS program has NEVER done 6am workouts, ever. They are one of the best teams year after year in our region and have a former long time MLB’r as their coach. Some Kids leave this program and go on to great success, draft/college, but MOST don’t. The guys who are going off to college know what is required when they get there and although there is plenty of opportunity to train year round with the team, the guys who are serious supplement this by using personal trainers.

My last post on this:

—Most of you are talking about the habits of the 1% of baseball players and generalizing from that. Most HS players will not play college ball.  High standards are great, but most kids on a HS team are not the players people are talking about here  

—Chico Jr’s goal is an HA school.  He will pick a school for its academics first, because he ain’t going to earn his living in MLB and he knows it.  To attend a 5 am workout at the expense of his Physics grade would be foolish.  Maybe he could do pre-dawn workouts and still get the grades he wants, but if a conflict were to emerge, his parents are going to frog march him to the library, not the weight room.

—My son has offseason workouts 5 days/week, including 8 am on Saturday. Weekday sessions are after school plus one day at 8 pm.  Based on the logic of some posters, he would be better off if instead he worked out at 5 am, because that would be harder and therefore make him more disciplined. Heck, why stop there?—he could wake up at 3:00 a.m. to work out and then grab another hour of sleep at 6:00. That would be harder, so therefore better, right?  My position is that HS kids are better off if they don’t have to be in the gym at 5 in the morning on school days.  That is not a bold claim, guys.  Telling me your kid did it and was ok doesn’t mean it’s a good idea for an entire HS program if there is an alternative.  Biology is what it is—most teens don’t function optimally on that early a schedule  

—My son is responsible for his own calendar. As a junior, he is better at this than he was as a sophomore.  When he goes to college in ~2 years, I expect him to be more mature and responsible than he is now.  If his college coach schedules 5:00 am workouts, then my son will have to deal with that. This doesn’t change my position that most 16- and 17- year olds are likely to perform better in high school if they don’t begin their day puking in the gym before dawn. 

Chico, you are muddying the waters with your close... puking and getting up early are two different line items 

My only comment is that college academics are not a full-time job. See https://www.aacu.org/publicati...nes-how-much-college

"On average, full-time 2009 and 2010 respondents at US institutions studied only 14.7 hours per week."

So 15 hours or class, plus 15 hours of studying = 30 hours. Plus they get a month off over the holidays, spring break, etc. Of course, if you skip class or don't study, the hours spent can be even less. 

2019Dad posted:

My only comment is that college academics are not a full-time job. See https://www.aacu.org/publicati...nes-how-much-college

"On average, full-time 2009 and 2010 respondents at US institutions studied only 14.7 hours per week."

So 15 hours or class, plus 15 hours of studying = 30 hours. Plus they get a month off over the holidays, spring break, etc. Of course, if you skip class or don't study, the hours spent can be even less. 

If average is the middle (actually median is) half of students study beyond an average number of hours, Given 57% of college students graduate the odds for the average student doesn’t look too good. I’ll guess the average number of study hours is dragged down by those who will flunk out at some point in time.

I still don’t understand how an early morning practice affects grades. All a student-athlete has to do is manage their time properly. As a high school student they have the benefit of advice and help from parents. 

I never understood the 6am workouts for HS players. I just never saw a reason to wake up at 5 and run when I can stay after school at 3:30 and do the same thing. I also don't think baseball is a sport where you need a ton of conditioning. It's not basketball or wrestling, a player will run a max of 360 ft at once. I always thought having players run suicides/sprints for 45 minutes at the end of practice was a waste of valuable time. 

Strength training and arm conditioning are another story. Hit the gym and lift weights/stay after school and long toss, if you're a pitcher run. If you are playing a winter sport there is nothing stopping you from renting a cage once a week and hitting/throwing for an hour. 

Chico Escuela posted:

CoachB25 posted:

I never required anyone to be at our conditioning program.  Simply put, everyone knew that if they didn't, they'd lose their positions because their competition would be bigger, quicker and stronger.  I think some may remember me posting about this back in the day.  We started at 6 in the morning.  We lifted, did a plyo program, and one day a week hit.  We were never allowed to throw a ball due to some perception by my AD that we would be violating rules.  So, we threw footballs.  We easily put 30 kids in that gym.  They celebrated the day when the entire group finally completed the plyo program without anyone throwing up.  It was intense.  As CabbageDad pointed out, we are a small school and we play a huge school schedule.   The team bonding that went on was amazing.  When we would begin each year, there would be tears and when we would finish, there were kids walking around that school with abs like you have never seen and we were fast fast.  To this day, I love those kids and admire them for what they did.  

You started at 6 am during the school year?  Gotta admit, my first thought is about what that did for your players' grades...  Sure, plenty of kids used to have a morning paper route (I did for a while) or had to milk the cows before school.  But getting teenaged boys up in time to be at the gym by 6:00, working them out until they puke, then sending them to math class...?

I think Ryno's started at 6:30 for hitting, and then they did pitching in the evenings.   

RJM posted:

Chico Escuela posted:

RJM posted:

Chico Escuela posted:

RJM posted:

My son couldn’t attend baseball workouts after school due to playing basketball. So twice a week he was up at 5am and at the gym door at 5:45 when the coach showed up. He worked out on his own in the garage a couple more days per week before school. He was in the gifted program. The long days had zero negative impact on his grades.

What it did do is make the college demands seem not so hard with baseball and majoring in Economics with a concentration in Quaritative Analytics.

My daughter said the time demands of law school was a piece of cake after softball and a STEM major.

RJM, I never argued that no kid could manage 5 am workouts.  Clearly some do and thrive on it.  It sounds as though your kids were great students and had a lot of self-discipline from an early age.  But not every player on most HS baseball teams has what it takes to become an astronaut or a brain surgeon (and some who could don't show the requisite self-discipline at age 16 or 17).  I'm all for pushing kids to perform at their best, but as a parent I'd be concerned if my son or daughter's HS team wanted them at school before dawn on a weekday on a regular basis.  Maybe that schedule is unavoidable (which I acknowledged above might be the case sometimes), but I'd be concerned about athletics interfering with academics.  

All it takes is not screwing around in study halls to lighten the load in the evening and going to bed at an appropriate time to get enough sleep.

You are operating from the assumption that you are dealing with a kid who is mature enough (and a good enough student) to understand this reasoning and act on it.  Some kids won't figure that out, even with their parents on their cases.  If working out at zero-dark hundred isn't necessary, why create the added degree of difficulty for those kids who might not handle it well?  For that matter, why turn an A-minus into a B-plus because a kid is drowsy in class, if there is no need? 

I say this as the parent of two kids who did very well academically while also playing multiple varsity sports.  Could they have managed 5 a.m. workouts?  Probably...    But I wouldn't expect them to do that--or their coaches to schedule workouts then-- unless there was some specific reason it was necessary.  Your answer was that your kid--who sounds like an unusually good student and very disciplined--chose to do that.  I believe you, and I believe he benefited from it.  But I don't think that's responsive to the point I'm making.  

What happens when a kid gets to college ball and is expected to be working out before classes? His parents aren’t there to bug him to get up. His college coach will probably comment once about missing a workout before moving on to the next player. 

College athletics and academics are a full time job. No one stands over the player’s shoulder telling him what to do. The only thing a college kid is told is “go home” if he’s not self disciplined enough to get everything done. 

I would argue pre school high school practices are good for future college athletes. They get in the mode with supervision and a kick in the rear. 

 

 

 

To add to your point about how cutthroat college can be: When Ryno was a soph. at his JC, he and a couple of the boys were late for the bus by a couple of minutes.  The coach left them, and he did not allow them to travel to that weekend's games. (By the way, he was named Region Pitcher of the Year, and had a .84 ERA (Regular Season), and 1.04 ERA (After Postseason)) So it wasn't as if he wasn't needed.

Point is, that these kids have to develop discipline to play in college.  A 6 AM practice is not going to hurt them.  It will actually help them prepare for the rigors of college athletics.  The schedule for a college athlete is very difficult, and especially when they take a reasonably hard major.

but If they walk to the practice barefoot in the snow, will that have an impact? In HS, for baseball, in our region I dont know of a single school that does morning work outs. Not one. That seems like a football mentality to me, and they hit their heads a lot...just sayin’

Chico Escuela posted:

joes87 posted:

Chico Escuela posted:

CoachB25 posted:

 

 

6a. You guys are lazy. During tryout week my kids ex HS held tryouts at 5am. They underwent a renovation years back and had limited field house space (we are in the north so tryouts are indoors). It’s since been corrected and there is enough space.  But the year they had to hold early morning tryouts we won the state championship. Now 7 years later the tradition holds. If you want it bad enough you show up. 

Again, I’d like to know what happened to baseball players’ GPA as a result of this schedule. Maybe they were all forced to really focus and manage their time well and so they actually improved. Maybe. But school should come first and as a parent I’d be concerned about whether my teenager could manage this commitment without hurting his schoolwork.  Many kids could not. 

Im not sure if it had much of an affect as it was only 1 week.  The kids know its coming and know to suck it up and be prepared.  I will say its a good question and I don't really have an answer.  It has become a tradition around here.  Something the kids can rally around.

Chico Escuela posted:

My last post on this:

—Most of you are talking about the habits of the 1% of baseball players and generalizing from that. Most HS players will not play college ball.  High standards are great, but most kids on a HS team are not the players people are talking about here  

—Chico Jr’s goal is an HA school.  He will pick a school for its academics first, because he ain’t going to earn his living in MLB and he knows it.  To attend a 5 am workout at the expense of his Physics grade would be foolish.  Maybe he could do pre-dawn workouts and still get the grades he wants, but if a conflict were to emerge, his parents are going to frog march him to the library, not the weight room.

—My son has offseason workouts 5 days/week, including 8 am on Saturday. Weekday sessions are after school plus one day at 8 pm.  Based on the logic of some posters, he would be better off if instead he worked out at 5 am, because that would be harder and therefore make him more disciplined. Heck, why stop there?—he could wake up at 3:00 a.m. to work out and then grab another hour of sleep at 6:00. That would be harder, so therefore better, right?  My position is that HS kids are better off if they don’t have to be in the gym at 5 in the morning on school days.  That is not a bold claim, guys.  Telling me your kid did it and was ok doesn’t mean it’s a good idea for an entire HS program if there is an alternative.  Biology is what it is—most teens don’t function optimally on that early a schedule  

—My son is responsible for his own calendar. As a junior, he is better at this than he was as a sophomore.  When he goes to college in ~2 years, I expect him to be more mature and responsible than he is now.  If his college coach schedules 5:00 am workouts, then my son will have to deal with that. This doesn’t change my position that most 16- and 17- year olds are likely to perform better in high school if they don’t begin their day puking in the gym before dawn. 

Chico, I seem to have angered you with my post.  That was not my intent.  However, I won't apologize for taking these kids and giving them the opportunity to improve themselves.  Again, no one was ever forced to come, roll was not taken, and I was doing what I thought was right.  I always say that some people look for excuses to lose and I give reasons to be win.  While it doesn't matter, my daughter grew up doing these workouts as well.  She went on to become an NCAA All American and a Scholastic All American.   So, I didn't ask something of someone else's child that I didn't ask of mine.  Again, she was never forced to go.  

Isn't it funny how people interpret a given event? I looked at what we did as doing more than my job.  I looked at it like I was giving these players a chance to become the best that they could be.  You look at it like I did something wrong.  You think it harsh or even cruel.  I came from a school that contended for state titles every year and were nationally ranked each year to a program that no one knew.  I came from a program where players went to major D-Is and were drafted to a school that hadn't had someone play major D-I and had one play professionally in the 1940s.   I wanted to give my new players the same effort I gave to my previous players.  Give that opportunity in two sports.  Chico, when I hear about how hard people work to coach a team, I wonder if they know how to build a program.  It starts at the top.  It starts with high expectations.  I was told I had a year to win our I would be fired.  It was very controversial when I made the switch in schools.  I came to a "Coaching Graveyard."   The basketball team won 3 games or less for 10 straight years.  The baseball team, while respectable had never won a regional.   The school I came from once beat this school 29 - 0.  

Well, I'm rambling.  Many here followed the success of my teams back in the day.  We started winning and winning a bunch.  We started winning regional titles and beating some of the best teams in the state.  For a school of 1000, we were regularly beating schools of 2,400+.  We had players drafted, playing in the B1G, ...  The basketball team also began to win the conference, regional championships and sectional championships.  In fact, they were listed in Streets and Smith as one of the Top 100 up and coming basketball programs in America.  

In the end, parents agreed with Chico's position that I demanded too much in basketball.  I resigned after winning 24 games, 2 tournaments and losing in the sectional championship.  In a couple of years, the basketball team didn't win a game.  They are on pace this year to win five or less.  If it is any consolation, neither the baseball nor the basketball team do what I did back then so, you won't have to worry.  Coaches like me don't last long now.  This is my last year and yes, the softball team gets after it.  We might be a contender this year for a state title.  Then, they too can worry about other things than the old man.  

Edited to add:

I forgot to address the notion that I do things after school.  I don't know about your schools but boy's basketball has 3 teams and girl's basketball has 2 teams.  The wrestling team has 2 teams.  In our school, track gets a balcony and they do pole vaulting up there.  Cheer-leading and Drill Team get the small gym when the basketball teams aren't in there.  Also, indoor track gets any other open time.    Finally, we have intramural sports and they get any other gym time in the evening when either gym is open.  We had as an option 6 a.m. or nothing.  Since I was coaching basketball and had to scout, 6 a.m. was my only option regardless of anything else.  

CoachB25: Not angry in the slightest. I enjoyed the discussion.  And I absolutely get that for a coach to attend pre-dawn workouts takes commitment on his part.

My initial goal was to ask whether your morning work outs might be asking so much from players that it took away from academics. I tried to pose it as a question, not an assertion. Then (IMO) the discussion shifted to arguments in favor of the kind of self-discipline and maturity that we wish every kid possessed, but I think not many do as teens.   I admit to being frustrated with posts about  kids who work out 3 hours a day while pursuing demanding academic programs. Nothing against those kids of course (I aspire to raise a couple like that myself), but they aren’t the mine run of HS baseball players. Maybe even an average player/student can and should be able to handle 5 or 6 a.m. workouts... I’m skeptical, but I don’t categorically say no.

I said the previous was my last post on this topic not because of any anger, but because when I get wound up about a topic here I tend to write too much and it eats up my time.  I enjoy the discussions here very much, but I was trying to cut myself off on this one. 

2022OFDad posted:

...and they hit their heads a lot...just sayin’

Gotta give this a special +1 shoutout. Too funny

I think something to keep in mind is where the school's are located (weather), what other sports are being offered at the time, etc. Example here in IL, you obviously are forced to be inside until March (sometimes April).  Winter workouts: you've basketball going on so many times you can't do anything 3pm-6pm. Is Wrestling/Football using the weight room after school? Do you want to provide your program with open gyms/workouts? Put out mounds so pitchers can start to throw in Jan/Feb? What if your school offers indoor track/badminton in the spring? No court time there then. Many times you are kind of forced to choose between the 5:30am-7:30am route....or go later at night. But then later at night also cuts into homework/studying. Kids should be going home at 3pm to do school work right away, correct? 

There's just many factors depending on school location, weather, what the school offers (some may even be opening up their gyms/fieldhouses to the public for park district agreements at night). 

For many in the midwest, it's the norm that for baseball you're going have those early morning times to get anything in. Otherwise it would be telling players in August when school starts, "Sorry we don't have any space or availability due to other school commitments, see you March 1st".  

It's funny yesterday after our work outs I started speaking to the guys. "Everyone has a choice. Do you want to be special? Do you want to be average? What is the difference? What does it take?"

The players who reach their potential ability while in HS all have some things in common. One of those things is the ability to self discipline themselves. The other is they put in work outside of what is required of them. I don't care how much or how little a coach requires from his players the players most likely to reach their full potential while in your program are those who practice self discipline and do more on their own, outside of what is required.

You can't practice self discipline in one area of your life and not practice it in every area your life if you want to be successful. Learning how to be self disciplined means you carry that with you in every part of your life. So the same things that will help you reach your potential as a baseball player will also assist you with being the best student you can be. The best young man you can be. The best son you can be. The best friend you can be. 

If a coach is demanding of you learn to be demanding on yourself. Learn the self discipline that it takes to be successful. Take that same approach to every area of your life. Instead of playing video games study more. Learn time management. Learn to go to bed and get up early. Find ways to do more than everyone else. If a coach is not demanding of you learn to be demanding of yourself. 

When does a 15 16 17 18 year old kid learn to be a man? He stops being a kid and starts practicing a man's life style of self discipline and excellence in everything he does. He demands excellence from himself regardless of what other's demand of him. Coaching HS baseball regardless of what others think is not about JUST baseball. It can't be in order to be successful as a Coach. It's about teaching young men how to self discipline themselves, how to step outside the norm around them and push for greatness. They may never be the best player you have. But if they are the greatest they could have been and learn how to push and reach for greatness everyday then you have achieved greatness. 

The same things that make you the best player you can be at that given time will also make you the best you you can be at that given time. And those practices will serve them long after the glove and bat are put away. Discipline, a desire to be the greatest you can be, the understanding that average is failure and you must step outside the circle and strive for more in everything you do. Coaches who do not demand greatness from their student athletes are failing them miserably. Find something else to do. If your not hanging by a thread your too comfortable. Learn to take a nap on the edge of the cliff. Get comfortable with that. It will serve you well. JMHO

Coach May, that was very well said.  But I assume that if you have a baseball player on your team who can contribute, but whose primary sport is basketball, you don't penalize him for not being at winter workouts and for playing AAU ball in the summer instead of baseball.  We can't commit 100% to everything (although we can try out best when we are doing whatever we do).  Just like my hypothetical basketball player, maybe a kid on your team dreams of being a physicist--he wants to play baseball, but he's not willing to give up a summer of classes and research at the local university in order to play travel ball. 

G.K. Chesterson wrote that "a thing worth doing is worth doing badly."  He meant that it's ok to be an amateur--to do something worthwhile even if you can't commit your heart and soul to it.  That's not inconsistent with going all out when you are on the field; but it may affect how often you are on the field or in the weight room.    

I don't penalize my players for not being at off season work outs. Never have never will. I don't penalize them for not doing anything extra during the season or out of season. I put the guys on the field that I believe give my team the best opportunity to win. I have several players that work during the summer. They also will work after school up to the first official practice date of baseball. I won't see them until Feb 11th. I respect that. Their families count on it. Every kids situation is different. 

I do believe they will reach their full potential they could have reached while they are in HS if they follow the basic principles I posted earlier. I don't know GK. But I know Kenny May. And Kenny May believes "Anything worth my time is worth my best." The problem with doing things "badly" or as we say where I am from "Half Assed" is that becomes a habit. JMO

If people disagree with my beliefs that self discipline and a true desire to be great are a good thing fine. I don't expect everyone to agree with me. There are plenty of coaches who wouldn't agree with the way I do a lot of things. But that's ok they don't play for me.

I don't expect a player playing another sport to be there. Be giving it your all to that. When it's time to study be giving your all to that. When its time to work be giving your all to that. What ever your doing just give it your best. Make that a habit. But it is also a curse that I will admit to. "Give me those freaking horse shoes that some BS!!" "Let's go again!!"

What if your school offers indoor track/badminton in the spring? No court time there then.

Are you serious with the badminton thing?  Never heard of a school offering badminton other than maybe play it in PE.  you learn something new every day.  I wonder if the Badminton team practices at 5 AM.

When I coached middle school Boys Basketball in Missouri, we practiced at 5:30AM.  I was sure no one would show up (ok, I was hoping no one would show up because I'm not a morning person).  35 7th and 8th grade boys showed up at a 2A school.  Every day because that was the only gym time we could get consistently.  It was miserable.  I did morning workouts in the winter for baseball from 7-7:30 because of how many played basketball and wrestled.  You do what you got to do.

PitchingFan posted:

What if your school offers indoor track/badminton in the spring? No court time there then.

Are you serious with the badminton thing?  Never heard of a school offering badminton other than maybe play it in PE.  you learn something new every day.  I wonder if the Badminton team practices at 5 AM.

When I coached middle school Boys Basketball in Missouri, we practiced at 5:30AM.  I was sure no one would show up (ok, I was hoping no one would show up because I'm not a morning person).  35 7th and 8th grade boys showed up at a 2A school.  Every day because that was the only gym time we could get consistently.  It was miserable.  I did morning workouts in the winter for baseball from 7-7:30 because of how many played basketball and wrestled.  You do what you got to do.

Badminton as a sanction sport is alive and well here in IL. Same for bowling and bass fishing

joes87 posted:

PitchingFan posted:

What if your school offers indoor track/badminton in the spring? No court time there then.

Are you serious with the badminton thing?  Never heard of a school offering badminton other than maybe play it in PE.  you learn something new every day.  I wonder if the Badminton team practices at 5 AM.

When I coached middle school Boys Basketball in Missouri, we practiced at 5:30AM.  I was sure no one would show up (ok, I was hoping no one would show up because I'm not a morning person).  35 7th and 8th grade boys showed up at a 2A school.  Every day because that was the only gym time we could get consistently.  It was miserable.  I did morning workouts in the winter for baseball from 7-7:30 because of how many played basketball and wrestled.  You do what you got to do.

Badminton as a sanction sport is alive and well here in IL. Same for bowling and bass fishing

 

 

I was just talking to a guy at a HS in the Northeast yesterday... JUST the boys sports include baseball, basketball, Bowling, chess, crew, x-country, fencing, football, golf, ice hockey, lacrosse, rugby, sailing, soccer, spring track, squash, surfing, swimming, tennis, volleyball, winter track, wrestling.  And most have V and JV squads, some more.  Remember, Northeast where outside practice during the winter isn't an option.  40 ish sports teams, just the boys. 

Some crazy HS sports... the thing that struck me most as odd was a NE HS having a surf team.  But beyond that...  Ya think gym time and weight room time is at a premium?  Ya think everything can be done between the comfortable hours of 3pm and 8pm?  

Well, the chess team can probably do its weight room circuit pretty quickly...

We have baseball class so they work out all during off season but 90% of our varsity team also works out 3-4X a week with a private guy.  They are making huge gains and all putting in a lot of work. We will see how it pans out. All play for different summer clubs, so no coordinating there. 

PitchingFan posted:

What if your school offers indoor track/badminton in the spring? No court time there then.

Are you serious with the badminton thing?  Never heard of a school offering badminton other than maybe play it in PE.  you learn something new every day.  I wonder if the Badminton team practices at 5 AM.

When I coached middle school Boys Basketball in Missouri, we practiced at 5:30AM.  I was sure no one would show up (ok, I was hoping no one would show up because I'm not a morning person).  35 7th and 8th grade boys showed up at a 2A school.  Every day because that was the only gym time we could get consistently.  It was miserable.  I did morning workouts in the winter for baseball from 7-7:30 because of how many played basketball and wrestled.  You do what you got to do.

We had to do this my Freshman year of HS too.  Just not enough gym space in small towns.

Most high school players have to make choice between Club and High school by law.  Here in Nebraska a kid can not play club ball while on a high school roster, and in the summer they have to get a waiver to player legion ball while on a club ball roster.

But to answer your question the priority should be the high school program as that is long term.

For example, my 2021 Catcher has this schedule - 

Sunday's - catching workouts with a former catcher in the Dodger organization, followed by bullpens at the High School.

Monday - 6am strength/conditioning with the team before school

Tuesday - Conditioning with a personal trainer after school

Wednesday - 6am strength/conditioning with the team before school and hitting after school

Thursday - Conditioning with a personal trainer after school, throwing wit the team in the evening

Friday - 6am strength/conditioning with the team before school

Saturday - Hitting

And more then once I've asked him to back it down as this is a lot on his plate; but he's doing okay with it and maintaining his grades.