I agree totally BlueDog about the load and unload being a continuous motion that can't be stopped and started....Common sense tells you that. Many hitting instructors teach the development of a methodical movement in hands and arms in order to initiate load and also teach a continuous flow and motion in the unloading process. BlueDog, you are right. Just had a long conversation with Major League scouts at FL State League game who discussed this very issue and also agree with BlueDog. Another advanced scout also agreed. These guys are 25+ experience in years for each professional scout who all agreed with BlueDog.
Anytime a disagreement comes up here in these threads, if worthy of establishment's attention, I have decided to take issue to scouting circles at the ballparks for discussion and I can report back here the consensus of the establishment...Agreed everybody???? Seriously.
The results of the issues of controversy in this thread were pro-BlueDog as far as the scouts tonight during our discussion which included the swing being a continuous motion in load and unload with NO stopping and starting and discussion about contact and follow through. Maximum batspeed should be reached at contact and not after contact in follow-through. BlueDog is absolutely correct in a majority consensus of advanced Major League Scouts 4-29-2006 Discussion took place from 6:45 until 9:45 PM EST between myself and other advanced scouts. Bluedog's right, period.
Regarding "Hitting Through The Ball", I don't think anyone would disagree with the idea that maximum bat speed must be achieved on contact! After contact, again I believe that everyone would agree that, gee , the ball is gone...so what does hitting through a ball acomplish if the ball is gone? The concept is a mental exercise that attempts to instill a muscle memory in the hitter that results in the batter not rolling over the wrists prematurely. It is a concept, a mental tool. Premature wrist roll will cause a hitter to slightly roll the bat higher through the hitting zone resulting in contact on the top side of the ball resulting in grounders. "Hitting Through THe Ball" will cause the batter to maintain his proper hand, therefore bat, position when bat contact is made. Bat speed must be there, and once contact has been made, yes, the ball is gone. No one expects that you are continuiously making contact with the ball as you are "hitting through" it...we all know that the ball has left the bat!
FLFan,
How's everything going ? You have a brand-new PM sir and hope E. is doing well. peace, Shep
How's everything going ? You have a brand-new PM sir and hope E. is doing well. peace, Shep
Shep, this is for you....
Teaching by correcting (instant feedback) and doing repetitions until muscle memory is built doesn't work well......Muscle memory and mental teaching is really misunderstood by coaches......
Understanding this stuff and teaching it are two different things altogether.....Just something for you to think about....
Teaching by correcting (instant feedback) and doing repetitions until muscle memory is built doesn't work well......Muscle memory and mental teaching is really misunderstood by coaches......
Understanding this stuff and teaching it are two different things altogether.....Just something for you to think about....
BlueDog said>
I say muscle memory after corrections and adjustments are made does work. Sometimes this is the only hope for a hitting prospect who has just switched from metal to wood because he has developed so many bad habits in swing components with that huge forgiving sweetspot on that treasured piece of metal
peace, Shep
quote:and doing repetitions until muscle memory is built doesn't work well......
I say muscle memory after corrections and adjustments are made does work. Sometimes this is the only hope for a hitting prospect who has just switched from metal to wood because he has developed so many bad habits in swing components with that huge forgiving sweetspot on that treasured piece of metal
peace, Shep
Blue dog:
“Cusp is the instant reversal of the direction of the bat.....Put simply...”
Is hand strength important during this action?
“Cusp is the instant reversal of the direction of the bat.....Put simply...”
Is hand strength important during this action?
Shep, you changed what I said and gave it a whole new meaning..... 
What you said is true....So is what I said....Only thing is, they're two diferent thoughts.......
I posted it to you so you could research it....I did and found it to be extremely interesting......
What you said is true....So is what I said....Only thing is, they're two diferent thoughts.......
I posted it to you so you could research it....I did and found it to be extremely interesting......
PG
I probably laughed louder and harder than you--in fact I know I did
Now I have to ask you, and you know me, what the heck is a NATURAL WONDER?
"I is what I is. Nothing more nothing less". Trust me you get what you see.
I probably laughed louder and harder than you--in fact I know I did
Now I have to ask you, and you know me, what the heck is a NATURAL WONDER?
"I is what I is. Nothing more nothing less". Trust me you get what you see.
quote:To elaborate, perhaps this will do some good for someone.....
In swinging a bat, the body's load/unload process should be a continuous dynamic process of muscle activation.....
The body loads by stretching muscles in a certain direction, then unloads by stretching those muscles in a different direction....It's an eccentric, concentric process.....The reversal action of the muscles during the load/unload phase needs to be instantaneous in order to be efficient....IOW, you don't load, wait, then unload....
Thanks for explaining. During his games yesterday my son used his "early step" drill in every at bat and smoked the ball 3 or 4 times. To recap, he takes a small, soft stride during the pitchers motion (much earlier than usual) and at the same time makes a small inward turn to get his hands back and keep his weight from moving forward. Though it worked yesterday, given Bluedog's comments perhaps this method would not produce good results in the long term (though that was not my plan anyway). Our intent with using this early step was simply to reduce the number of things he has to do to start the swing, hopefully making him quicker overall.
I discussed this with my son last night after his tournament games and talked about his comfort with starting with a wider stance (the width it would be after striding from his normal stance) ala Pujols, Edmonds. Pujols and Edmonds take a small inward turn and roll up onto their front toes then just slam the heel. Bluedog (and others) do you think this is a good approach to teach my son?
Thanks.
Jon
Willj, not a good idea to reduce the things the body needs to do to move efficiently in the swing process.....A better way of thinking is to teach the proper body movements and learn how to adapt to them..... 
I will post about your idea of the stance later....
I will post about your idea of the stance later....
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
He has to realize that others may know as much or more than he does--that is the Dogs problem
If there are any, you sure aren't on the list.
quote:Originally posted by THop:
Blue dog:
“Cusp is the instant reversal of the direction of the bat.....Put simply...”
Is hand strength important during this action?
No. Quality rotation and a knowing what to do with the arms is where your answer lies.
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
I am fortunate to have had a great time getting to 64 years of age and doing a lot of things I enjoyed during the travels to this point. I have been blessed with healthy children and for a guy that was not supposed to be here I thank the Almighty for everything that I have had and hopefully will continue to have for many years to come..
Give him a hand.
Now, lets talk hitting.
INFOPIMP
Thanx for the vote of confidence--looking at your ID I see you have a problem in my eyes--I dont take your ID seriously--"pimp"?
Where I come from that does not say much for you. You sell information--what does that mean--is the info valid
I dont need a hand or wnat one--- What I want is for those lurking and reading/posting and reading to realize that the internet word is b not gospel--just because someone posts information is that information correct?--check out who is dispensing the info and make sure what you get is valid !!!
Info--see you on the rebound
Thanx for the vote of confidence--looking at your ID I see you have a problem in my eyes--I dont take your ID seriously--"pimp"?
Where I come from that does not say much for you. You sell information--what does that mean--is the info valid
I dont need a hand or wnat one--- What I want is for those lurking and reading/posting and reading to realize that the internet word is b not gospel--just because someone posts information is that information correct?--check out who is dispensing the info and make sure what you get is valid !!!
Info--see you on the rebound
quote:Shep, you changed what I said and gave it a whole new meaning.....
I will research statement BlueDog if I can ever stop laughing at what I did...because I did kinda turn it around...
Sorry about that BD, peace, Shep
I would be like TR. I hadn't thought of moving up in the box though.
I would work with the kid to hit fly balls. When he can hit them consistently (say 70% of the time), then we would hit line drives. If he kept hitting up, then we would hit ground balls a few times and then hit it farther up the ball to make line drives. Make it a game to hit line drives.
Of course this kid also did not say what he is swinging at (fastballs, changeups, curves, everything). If he is really challenged, how about bunting and playing pepper (Ted Williams remedy for hitting better)? How about this - when was the last time you went to the eye doctor?
Also how much hitting practice do you get? My son has straighten things out before by extra work at the batting cages - about 120 - 150 pitches in the 80mph cage.
Tim Robertson
I would work with the kid to hit fly balls. When he can hit them consistently (say 70% of the time), then we would hit line drives. If he kept hitting up, then we would hit ground balls a few times and then hit it farther up the ball to make line drives. Make it a game to hit line drives.
Of course this kid also did not say what he is swinging at (fastballs, changeups, curves, everything). If he is really challenged, how about bunting and playing pepper (Ted Williams remedy for hitting better)? How about this - when was the last time you went to the eye doctor?
Also how much hitting practice do you get? My son has straighten things out before by extra work at the batting cages - about 120 - 150 pitches in the 80mph cage.
Tim Robertson
Perhaps posture and swing plane need some adjusting to create more consistent lift.
Willj, a hitter needs some forward weight shift during the stride.....A hitter should not keep their weight on the back side........You really need to do some research on this....You are taking your son in the wrong direction....Believe me, there is more going on in Pujols and Edmonds' swing than just rolling up on the front foot......
Infopimp is very knowledgeable and maybe you can get him to steer you in the right direction....I hope so, because I like listening to him.....And, I'm really glad he has shown up....
Infopimp is very knowledgeable and maybe you can get him to steer you in the right direction....I hope so, because I like listening to him.....And, I'm really glad he has shown up....
Today I brought up discussion with same scouts about developing methodical movement with hands and arms before pitch recognition and cocking of hands(trigger) and guess what? You guessed it, majority consensus of baseball establishment was the same.>> >>Hitter needs to develop methodical movement and not hit from dead stationary stance.<< << peace, Shep
You guys are simply talking about rhythm and every scout in baseball knows it when they see it. What's the need in asking the "establishment"? I thought the baseball "establishment" was a problem in your thinking or is that only when they disagree?
Sorry, couldn't help myself.
Sorry, couldn't help myself.
Not sure what you mean PG. 
Matt Smith sure is doing well in Ga. The establishment is what some others call pro scouts here at HSBBW. Will there be any updates on hotlist this week at PG site? peace, Shep
While I got cha Jerry since your such a hard person to reach now-a-days, have you guys filled staff positions for Academies down here in Ft Lauderdale at Baltimore's facility?
Matt Smith sure is doing well in Ga. The establishment is what some others call pro scouts here at HSBBW. Will there be any updates on hotlist this week at PG site? peace, ShepWhile I got cha Jerry since your such a hard person to reach now-a-days, have you guys filled staff positions for Academies down here in Ft Lauderdale at Baltimore's facility?
quote:thought the baseball "establishment" was a problem in your thinking or is that only when they disagree?
Jerry, can you please explain what you mean by this ? Shep
Shep,
Email me about the academy.
The "establishment" is something you should talk to BlueDog and Infopimp about. I don't think they have much faith in the baseball "establishment". It's one of the many things I have learned, right here on the HSBBW.
Not saying they are not right, but find it kind of funny that you're trying to use the "establishment" to prove what they say is 100% correct. I think it's been their opinion for a long time that, hitting coaches, and others involved in professional baseball do not understand the swing.
Email me about the academy.
The "establishment" is something you should talk to BlueDog and Infopimp about. I don't think they have much faith in the baseball "establishment". It's one of the many things I have learned, right here on the HSBBW.
Not saying they are not right, but find it kind of funny that you're trying to use the "establishment" to prove what they say is 100% correct. I think it's been their opinion for a long time that, hitting coaches, and others involved in professional baseball do not understand the swing.
Thanks-a-million PG Jerry for clearing that up for me Jerry and I do believe I understand what you mean now. Been trying to get Info and BlueDog to see that some of their ideas are also shared by scouts and we are not their enemy.
Thank you for the opportunity, I will email you after school which will soon be out here in FL. The idol time I will have from last week of this month till early August could prove to be turning point in my dreams and aspirations. Believe in "showing" not talking and this will be a "Perfect Time" for you and your staff to get to know the real person and what I have to offer.
Thank you sir again for the opportunity to further discuss this idea I got just last night and look forward to speaking with you.
Best Regards,
Shep
Thank you for the opportunity, I will email you after school which will soon be out here in FL. The idol time I will have from last week of this month till early August could prove to be turning point in my dreams and aspirations. Believe in "showing" not talking and this will be a "Perfect Time" for you and your staff to get to know the real person and what I have to offer.
Thank you sir again for the opportunity to further discuss this idea I got just last night and look forward to speaking with you.
Best Regards,
Shep
quote:In swinging a bat, the body's load/unload process should be a continuous dynamic process of muscle activation.....
The body loads by stretching muscles in a certain direction, then unloads by stretching those muscles in a different direction....It's an eccentric, concentric process.....The reversal action of the muscles during the load/unload phase needs to be instantaneous in order to be efficient....IOW, you don't load, wait,
BlueDog,
Your above discription... Can it be done without good rhythm? Can there be good rhythm in the swing without it?
By the way, I'm kind of glad to see you and infopimp back on here. I imagine BBScout is real busy these days, hope he finds some time to chime in soon.
Other than some of the personal arguments, you guys always add a lot of good stuff.
One question... If someone disagrees with something you say... Does that make them stupid?
On this site?....Usually.
Infopimp:
Not to be rude, but there are many individual coaches and instructors here who know more about teaching the game at 60/90’ than you and Blue dog combined.
Granted you two know more nymonology (engineered terms to replace traditional ones) than anyone here, but don’t confuse the skills of spelling, typing, thesaurus and attaching clips and smiley faces with the skills of hitting, pitching, catching, base running and playing every defensive position.
Example: http://hsbaseballweb.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/8591034941/m/6771039061
THop
Not to be rude, but there are many individual coaches and instructors here who know more about teaching the game at 60/90’ than you and Blue dog combined.
Granted you two know more nymonology (engineered terms to replace traditional ones) than anyone here, but don’t confuse the skills of spelling, typing, thesaurus and attaching clips and smiley faces with the skills of hitting, pitching, catching, base running and playing every defensive position.
Example: http://hsbaseballweb.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/8591034941/m/6771039061
THop
Dog-
The bat does not suddenly change direction. The "cusp" has to do with other human things reversing efficiently (soft tissues,not bones).
I also disagree with your contention that timing can not be taught since it's a "brain thing".You have a lot of company here as even DMAC says timing can't be taught.
This is one of the reasons I personally find Epstein has the best approach. He has a good enough model so that he caninsert the toe touch/heel drop landmark as a workable method of working on timing. I think he demonstrates that technique and timing can both be taught as well as how they relate to each other.This does not mean you must necessarily pause here, although it can be a good idea for off speed in either delaying creation of cusp without interruption of coil; or interupting and reloading if you need to wait that long.
The bat does not suddenly change direction. The "cusp" has to do with other human things reversing efficiently (soft tissues,not bones).
I also disagree with your contention that timing can not be taught since it's a "brain thing".You have a lot of company here as even DMAC says timing can't be taught.
This is one of the reasons I personally find Epstein has the best approach. He has a good enough model so that he caninsert the toe touch/heel drop landmark as a workable method of working on timing. I think he demonstrates that technique and timing can both be taught as well as how they relate to each other.This does not mean you must necessarily pause here, although it can be a good idea for off speed in either delaying creation of cusp without interruption of coil; or interupting and reloading if you need to wait that long.
quote:Originally posted by tom.guerry:
The bat does not suddenly change direction.
You're kidding, right? So......it does so slowly?
Yes it does so slowly and usually as a continuous circling action,not a back and forth reversal.
The things that reverse are soft tissue/muscles via tissue elasticity and muscular force production. This is measured and actually exists as "xfactor stretch" which is the creation of that part of the cusp before reversal. But you have to understand and "believe" in xfactor/xfactor stretch which has been consistently found in golf AND hitting,with a better cusp/xfactor stretch found in the best performers.
GOLF illustration:
http://www.advancedmotionmeasurement.com/html/XFactorStretch2.htm
notice cusp appears on graph in high level performers
Same company/equipment used on high performing mlb hitters shows initial hip-shoulder separation of 15 degrees in load motion followed by xfactor stretch of separation to form cusp of another 12 degrees of dynamic separation at/after front heel drop.See summary from pimp's ol buddy Zig:
http://www.batspeed.com/messageboard/10685.html
The things that reverse are soft tissue/muscles via tissue elasticity and muscular force production. This is measured and actually exists as "xfactor stretch" which is the creation of that part of the cusp before reversal. But you have to understand and "believe" in xfactor/xfactor stretch which has been consistently found in golf AND hitting,with a better cusp/xfactor stretch found in the best performers.
GOLF illustration:
http://www.advancedmotionmeasurement.com/html/XFactorStretch2.htm
notice cusp appears on graph in high level performers
Same company/equipment used on high performing mlb hitters shows initial hip-shoulder separation of 15 degrees in load motion followed by xfactor stretch of separation to form cusp of another 12 degrees of dynamic separation at/after front heel drop.See summary from pimp's ol buddy Zig:
http://www.batspeed.com/messageboard/10685.html
Tom, I also respect what you have to say.....I don't agree with alot of what you believe about hitting, but, I do know you are very intelligent......So, if you wish to present a differing opinion, I welcome your input..
Blue:
I am only “rude” to you because you (and infopop) are “rude” to others. The reason you are “used to it” is because you guys have done it so often here (and at Baseball Excellence) under the Blue Dog and/or Lamber screen name.
Not only do “most here know more about baseball” than you, there are a lot of people here (and at other sites) who know more about hitting (and teaching it at the 60/90’ level) than you do as well. “Believe it or not,” there are a lot of experienced baseball people who have spent more time studying more clips than you and infopop combined. And not all of them are a part of “the establishment” either.
Now, when you say “hitting”, do you mean just the physical, swing and pre swing mechanics? Are mental approaches and situational hitting skills also within your parameters? As you are aware, I try very hard to NOT limit my discussions on hitting to just physical swing mechanics and more importantly new words some internet guru invented to describe them.
I do not think you are stupid either. Nor do I disagree with a lot of what you say about hitting. I just take issue with your (and infopop’s) demeanor and insistence on using souped up terminology to make money while you add to the already large “gray area” that exists pertaining to swing mechanics AND hitting.
Lastly, could you please expand on your definition or give a detailed description of a “high level swing”?
Thanks,
THop
I am only “rude” to you because you (and infopop) are “rude” to others. The reason you are “used to it” is because you guys have done it so often here (and at Baseball Excellence) under the Blue Dog and/or Lamber screen name.
Not only do “most here know more about baseball” than you, there are a lot of people here (and at other sites) who know more about hitting (and teaching it at the 60/90’ level) than you do as well. “Believe it or not,” there are a lot of experienced baseball people who have spent more time studying more clips than you and infopop combined. And not all of them are a part of “the establishment” either.
Now, when you say “hitting”, do you mean just the physical, swing and pre swing mechanics? Are mental approaches and situational hitting skills also within your parameters? As you are aware, I try very hard to NOT limit my discussions on hitting to just physical swing mechanics and more importantly new words some internet guru invented to describe them.
I do not think you are stupid either. Nor do I disagree with a lot of what you say about hitting. I just take issue with your (and infopop’s) demeanor and insistence on using souped up terminology to make money while you add to the already large “gray area” that exists pertaining to swing mechanics AND hitting.
Lastly, could you please expand on your definition or give a detailed description of a “high level swing”?
Thanks,
THop
One thing is for sure.
Everyone here individually is smarter than everyone at baseball-excellence collectively.
Talk 60/90 all you want. The information at baseball-excellence is geared to beginners. Those who have never played and never coached.
No wonder you feel smart there.
Everyone here individually is smarter than everyone at baseball-excellence collectively.
Talk 60/90 all you want. The information at baseball-excellence is geared to beginners. Those who have never played and never coached.
No wonder you feel smart there.
LOL. “One thing is for sure”, you have obviously never “purchased” anything from BE. But you do make a good point about some of the information that appears on its (and every other) discussion board from time to time. LOL. Especially the thread below where YOU (using the Lamber screen name, LOL) so eloquently put us all in our place with your infinite baseball wisdom (Truth). LOL
http://www.baseball-excellence.com/sbaseballforums/view...rds=was%20that%20you
http://www.baseball-excellence.com/sbaseballforums/view...rds=was%20that%20you
quote:Originally posted by BlueDog:
Also, a hitter should not stride to the toe and hold that position.....If you're gonna do that, why not just start in that position?...
BlueDog - My son's hitting instructor calls this "Post Stride" and has taught him to do this when he's behind in the count. My understanding is that this is done when behind in the count with the thought something off-speed will be thrown. This way the weight is back and he's in a better position to drive those pitches. I may be missing something but I'm sure you get the general idea.
Regarding the original question, could the batter be dropping his back shoulder, swinging with an uppercut?
quote:Originally posted by Jonny12baseball:
Do some long tee it helps me
Never heard of this. Can you explain?
quote:Originally posted by THop:
Especially the thread below where YOU (using the Lamber screen name) so eloquently put us all in our place with your infinite baseball wisdom (truth). LOL
http://www.baseball-excellence.com/sbaseballforums/view...rds=fair%20territory
I stand by everything I wrote in that post. When you get out of elementary school, you'll understand what was written. And, if you were a catcher like you claim, you'd agree with me.
The runners who take an east/west step to get into fair territory, when the catcher is attempting a pickoff, are dead ducks on close plays. Fact. Thank you for the extra step runner........Now, go sit down. And when you coach yells at you, remind him what he taught you.
You better go north and south or your dead.
BTW, you couldn't have come up with a better "elementary" example of your teachings.
Thanks for proving my point.
Beezer, your son needs a new hitting instructor....
ditto
quote:Originally posted by BlueDog:
Beezer, your son needs a new hitting instructor....
It seems to be working for him. I don't think he's been caught off guard yet by something off speed on a 0-2, 1-2, 2-2 count. He's only K'd a few times and I think they were because he was "looking" thinking they were out of the zone. One may have been swinging.
