Corey Seager, Tommy John & Travel Ball

I'm hoping we can have an intelligent conversation about kids pitching & playing infield as high school age athletes, and getting some consensus on how much is too much.  

Getting consensus as to exactly where the line is probably is unrealistic.  I think many of us can share examples of "too much" (great example would be some dad putting a kid on multiple teams so he can pitch "more") and some can provide examples of "too little" (where if you cannot actually contribute much then why bother), but trying to determine what is "just right" is, IMO, too situational (subject to following some standard pitching guidelines and not overlapping positions like pitcher/catcher).

The discussion will also need to set out some limitations or caveats about the individual in question.  Things like we are going to assume the kid has a reasonable opportunity to advance to college ball (so as to ignore the high school senior who may throw a little too much but has zero plans of playing at the next level).  We need to understand the history of the kid (did he start really pitching at 8yo with attendant pitching lessons or did he sort of migrate into pitching at 13yo) and need to understand better what his historical workload has been.  Lastly, I think we need to appreciate just how much stress he is inducing during his pitching.  Some kids, IMO, throw the ball with very low stress levels on the arm.  All that said, we may end up discussion kids who have pitched from 8yo, who have always been one of the "best pitchers" (and therefore used "accordingly" to win some tournaments), and who throws really hard and therefore is probably inducing significant stress.  If we discuss this last category, then we should assume that the kid has an average anatomy and that he has neither strong nor weak ligaments/tendons/muscles and that he is not imbalanced in his muscle development and has "reasonable/average" mechanics.

I realize this does not really help in advancing a general discussion of the topic and may come across as a smart aleck response, but I feel that this discussion, while very important, is really pretty difficult to discuss in general terms.  I think it really is more of a philosophy based on the specific kid in question.

I think you are making a logical leap to suspect overuse as the primary reason for his injury.  There are so many other factors that can be considered as contributing to this injury or any baseball injury.  When you add it all up it is still impossible to know because we are dealing with biology, human tissue, biomechanics, environmental conditions, diet, exercise routine, etc....we are left guessing.  

What is interesting to me is that we seem to be hearing more and more cases of TJ injuries with position players than in years past.   Possibly this is another thread for another day, but I'd really like to know if there is some overall data out there about an increase in TJ for position players.

BTW.....Dodgers are currently 12-16 in a competitive division.   They better watch out for the Padres sneaking up on them!

Just for the record and we obviously don't know what Corey did at every event he attended or every game he ever played.  We do know what he did at PG events.  He attended 12 events (tournaments and showcases).  He was always a middle infielder at every event.  He did throw one inning at one event and that is where the 84 mph was recorded. Here is a link to his profile... https://www.perfectgame.org/Pl...vents.aspx?ID=199849

No one plays more baseball than professional players.  How many professional games has he played.  There are non pitchers that have TJ surgery.  There is wear and tear on the arm.  Then one throw, perhaps an off balance throw from shortstop, and it snaps.

I'm all for arm care, but why does it seem like every time a Big Leaguer has TJ surgery it is never because of how much they are currently playing and throwing.  Throwing a baseball has the potential to cause injury.  Yes, there is a cumulative effect that can lead back to youth in some cases.  But there are many cases where kids played it extra safe and still ended up injured.  Also, you simply won't find many that make it to the top that didn't play a ton of baseball when they were young. The Major Leagues has been full of USA born players that played travel ball and attended showcases.  1,100 of them played in PG events alone.  So the number of TJ surgeries that get the most publicity are MLB players or top prospects.  Most MLB players and top prospects played travel ball when they were younger. So those two things (Travel Ball and TJ) always seem to get linked. 

There is abuse at times in amateur baseball.  We all know that it exists.  It exists in all of amateur baseball to some degree, but for some reason it seems like travel ball gets most of the blame.  Truth is it does happen a lot among the youngest age groups. Personally I have seen a lot of abuse take place in high school baseball.  Anyway, people are doing things more and more to protect pitchers and that is a good thing.

Personally, I think Perfect Game is a fabulous organization and has nothing to do with the concerns in this topic.   Anyone blaming Perfect Game for an elbow injury is sort of like blaming Dodgers Stadium for an elbow injury...

My concern is youth players playing 3B, 2B or SS and pitching in the same weekend.   It is counterintuitive to all logic.  Pros don't do that. Yet we see it all the time.  I understand that kids and parents don't like the "pitcher only" spot on a roster, usually.

 I can only imagine how dominant someone like Seager was from ages 14-17.  I'm sure it was tempting to ride his arm in tournaments on occasion....

My instints tell me at the pro level players have hit the limit of how hard one can throw without increased risk of injury and how much wear and tear an arm can take. I also believe with all the professional training available now kids are throwing harder at younger ages than their physically developing arm can handle.

My son was a physical athlete growing up as a catcher, point guard in baseball, defender in soccer and slot back and linebacker in football. He started playing baseball, basketball and soccer as soon as their were leagues. He started football in middle school.

An orthopedic surgeon friend insisted playing mutiple sports prevents wear and tear repeatedly on the same parts of the body. I guess we didn't look at how much he was playing each sport even thoughnall his sports activity was seasonal. He was physical. It wasn’t due to being the big kid. It was being small and using his speed to be physical to compensate for being smaller until he grew in high school. 

In high school he had a contact related separated shoulder injury requiring surgery. Afterwards the surgeon said there was a lot of wear and tear in his shoulders. The doctor surmised his throwing arm had already started separating from his shoulder before the injury. Said he would throw harder after the repair.

My son absolutely didn't pitch too much as a kid. It was a physical, wear and tear injury exacerbated by contact. Had he pitched more people would have automatically blamed it on pitching too much. 

A friend is a youth sports advocate. He said its a shame kids don’t play less organized sports and more pickup games as we did as kids. When we got tired we took a break or called it a day. In organized youth sports now the kids grind through the day/weekend possibly harming themselves.. 

There's a list of MLB players on Wikipedia who have had TJ. Very few are not pitchers. Of those that are not pitchers, the great majority are catchers.

While it's tempting to conclude that overuse in showcaseball is hurting position players' arms, there are so many moving parts that it's hard to say. Could be one throw. Could be genetics.  Could be a lot of things.

In my anecdotal experience, I think that, surprisingly, HS baseball is a bigger danger than tournament games.  In our case, as some of you know, my 2017 has had both chronic elbow and shoulder issues that impacted his recruitment and development.  While his HS coach was sensitive to this, and let kids sit out when injured, once you were ready to go you were in for very long, very hard practices that involved literally hundreds of full velocity throws.  Compared to practices, game days were a snap. There are usually only only a dozen or so high-stress throws in a game, if that.  So by extension, arguably for a position player, the most healthy thing you could be doing is playing games.

The truth is that it is surprising that more MLB position players do not go down with a throwing injury. Think of the volume of throws for a catcher at MLB, for example. Granted, all of them are not max effort but just sheer volume, getting loose before game, between inning throws to 2nd base, game steal throws. Just incredible. A MLB SS has to be ready & loose to go max effort from the hole just about every day. This is a ton of throwing, over years of use. 

I'm confused about the notion of overuse because all good players throw a lot - in games, practices, long-toss, weighted balls, etc.  Why do some get hurt and many, many others don't?

One thing that jumped out from the OP was "he threw 90 across the diamond".  There seems to be a high (100%?) correlation between TJ surgeries and throwing hard.  That's not to say that every player who throws hard gets TJ surgery, but it seems that every player that gets TJ surgery throws hard.

Another thing that comes to mind is that more and more MLBers are getting TJ surgery (something like 30% of pitchers?), while the average MLB velocity has been increasing steadily.  This seems to support the correlation between  TJ and velocity.

Maybe we've just reached the limit of the human body.  Maybe anyone that throws above XX will eventually blow out his elbow.  Maybe there's a curve such that above some velocity, there's a diminishing number of throws it takes to cause injury.  Maybe each player adds variability to this equation.  We know that excessive acceleration/deceleration is not good for the human body.  Airbags, padded helmets, etc have been invented to minimize this.  I don't know how one could practically limit the velocity (acceleration / deceleration) of a throw without ruining the game.

Piecing together what PG and JCG wrote, I really think a discussion of arm health should basically exclude all MLB players.  If you make it to the MLB, you have played a whole lot (technical term) of baseball at a very high level.  You are bound to get injured at some point.

Probably goes for MiLB also - not to mention the fact that these guys are fighting tooth and nail to work their way up the ladder.  

Top tier college pitchers having pitched 3+ years are probably putting a whole lot of mileage on their arms - probably not too different than MiLB.

Once you get into early college years and back down into high school, that is where poor arm care practices cause the most damage.  Very few people outside of the family and maybe the program itself are aware of these injuries, but they happen every day to lots of kids.  These are kids who have excelled to some level and often have their careers ended.  Some rehab and continue on.  Some get injured again.  Some have trouble rebalancing their lives when baseball is over (including their relationship with the parent "coach").  I forget the percentages, but I think the focus should be focused on keeping kids healthy until they either get told to quit (not picked up for varsity or not going on to college) and not worry too much about the 2% that continue on (or some ridiculously low percentage when it comes to top tier pitchers who continue on) as that discussion become too granular and injuries difficult to tie back to early kid pitch weekends.  In other words, enforce sensible limits early on and then make the necessary decisions of risk/return as you move up levels.  And no skateboarding period.

I wonder if there are more injuries now or just more diagnosed injuries now due to advances in science and technology.

As a kid it seemed we threw all day long. It was a baseball, whiffle ball, rocks or bottle caps. We weren't necessarily throwing hard. But we were constantly throwing. As an only child when I wasn't playing with neighborhood kids I was throwing a rubber ball off the garage door.

Now kids tend not be throwing when they're not playing an organized game. In the organized game they're always throwing hard. With all the technology today is it possible the previous generation had arms in better shape from throwing (not pitching) a lot?

This is the best list that I know of.

https://docs.google.com/spread...FDVsCwvN-3AazykOBON0

Just raw numbers:
P  499
OF  55
C  42
SS  14
IF  12
3B  8
1B  8
2B  6
CF  1

Seager had issues with elbow pain last year but decided not to have surgery.  I too agree that there's a lot of throwing at the pro level and that fact is overlooked when it comes to injuries.  IE in a minor league game I went to, both position players and pitchers made over 100 throws in their throwing warmups.  It went on for a full 30 minutes.  Then they went went into position specific throws.  Altogether I'm guessing it was 110-120 throws.  All that is probably seem as arm care.  Then the other thing I've noticed is SS/3B always have to make a max effort throw even on a hard hit routine grounder.  Players are so fast HTF nowadays.  I remember those grounders requiring only 75-80% effort from the SS/3B in the past.  

Interesting but same discussion.

I dont think that its the number of pitches  but rather what type of pitches, as well as biological and fatigue factors, as to why pitchers need TJS more often than others.

Would like to hear Kyle weigh in on this, but he has gone bigtime but IMO he is the opinion I would value most.

As mentioned this player has already made it, and he will be treated well and get many chances.

Concern should be for our youth, so that they should get the chance to reach the highest level before disaster strikes.

JMO

TPM posted:

Interesting but same discussion.

I dont think that its the number of pitches  but rather what type of pitches, as well as biological and fatigue factors, as to why pitchers need TJS more often than others.

Would like to hear Kyle weigh in on this, but he has gone bigtime but IMO he is the opinion I would value most.

As mentioned this player has already made it, and he will be treated well and get many chances.

Concern should be for our youth, so that they should get the chance to reach the highest level before disaster strikes.

JMO

 

what does this mean?

Kyle Boddy  @ driveline.

this thread is kind of like watching Rocky 6....haven't I seen this before? Nobody is changing where they stand on the topic.

How many kids who can't throw hard, "at a high level" ever get diagnosed with needing TJ? Could it be that throwing hard is more of a risk than throwing too much? To be honest I have never heard of a kid needing it who couldn't really throw. Just throwing that out there for discussion. 

I suspect that, beyond the fact that there are more teams now than back in the day (and therefore more players), the frequency of injury is no greater now than it was way back when.

The difference is, back then your career simply ended, and someone else took your spot.  TV exposure was limited to a couple of games per week, and there was no internet to discuss it on, so it didn't take long until a guy who suffered a career-ending injury was simply forgotten.  After all, once you get past the stars of the game, lots of players have relatively short MLB tenures.

Now, you get surgery and you return in 2019.  And in the meantime, people discuss it 'til the cows come home.  Heck, there's one TV channel that exists to (a) show us more games and then (b) flagellate topics like this one endlessly.  24/7!

I've said this before, but I'll say it again:  The percentage of travel ball players who advance to MLB is very, very small.  For the vast majority, the time they have in youth ball is going to be the sum and substance of their time in the game (at least, as a player -- many go on to coach of course).  People need to understand that robbing kids of their one opportunity to play the game they love to the fullest, because of some remote chance that they might be a future MLB player, is truly a tail wagging the dog situation.

Midlo Dad posted:

 

I've said this before, but I'll say it again:  The percentage of travel ball players who advance to MLB is very, very small.  For the vast majority, the time they have in youth ball is going to be the sum and substance of their time in the game (at least, as a player -- many go on to coach of course).  People need to understand that robbing kids of their one opportunity to play the game they love to the fullest, because of some remote chance that they might be a future MLB player, is truly a tail wagging the dog situation.

^^^This.  Let the kids play and leave it all out on the field.  And let them play football, even if they might get hurt.

I live in "small time land" (Wisconsin), which is somewhat of a joke, as in recent years there have been an increasing amount of players coming out of Wisconsin playing in the SEC and getting drafted by MLB teams.  Jarred Kelenic from Waukesha WI (same town that JJ Watt is from) might even be a Top 5 overall pick in the next MLB Draft.

But still, here in small time land, the competition isn't as fierce as in the Baseball hotbeds.  Here, if you are a pretty decent high school player, capable of starting and contributing on Varsity, you have a darn good shot of playing college Baseball at least at a D3 or NAIA or JUCO in Wisconsin, Minnesota, or Iowa.

And, honestly, eyes wide open, I see a lot of kids from age 14-17 playing with sore arms in both high school and travel ball.  Trying to play through the pain.  Getting moved from pitcher to 3B, or Pitcher to SS, in the same game, or certainly in the same weekend.  Jeopardizing their future before they even realize their potential.  It is somewhat the norm.  And it is depressing to see, honestly.

I'll say this:  the best travel programs around here have huge rosters.  A lot more PO's, and take care of arms better.  The high school programs and lesser travel teams (with rosters of 12-13 kids at 16U!) are putting kids at risk.

So, no, with all due respect, it isn't just "let kids be kids because they'll never be MLB players anyways."   No way, not buying that one. 

Well, coming from the perspective of a dad that has walked this road, my perspective mirrors closest to Coach Mays post, “not all hard throwers have TJ but almost all TJ patients are hard throwers.” This is based on my observations through the years and my conversation with Dr Andrews (who is the world authority in my opinion). He basically said exactly what Coach May expressed. I’m not discounting overuse as I have seen that as well. Just in my experience, the overuse issues seem to affect that player prior to reaching high school and certainly college baseball. 

I also believe genetics play a huge factor that we just have no way to quantify. Unfortunately, you can’t be great if you don’t spend a LOT of time at your craft. Baseball involves throwing. So you are going to have to throw hard and often and accept the associated risks. I do not intend for this to come off lightly. I HATE injuries and wish they were not so prevalent in the game we love so much. 

PGStaff posted:

Just for the record and we obviously don't know what Corey did at every event he attended or every game he ever played.  We do know what he did at PG events.  He attended 12 events (tournaments and showcases).  He was always a middle infielder at every event.  He did throw one inning at one event and that is where the 84 mph was recorded. Here is a link to his profile... https://www.perfectgame.org/Pl...vents.aspx?ID=199849

No one plays more baseball than professional players.  How many professional games has he played.  There are non pitchers that have TJ surgery.  There is wear and tear on the arm.  Then one throw, perhaps an off balance throw from shortstop, and it snaps.

I'm all for arm care, but why does it seem like every time a Big Leaguer has TJ surgery it is never because of how much they are currently playing and throwing.  Throwing a baseball has the potential to cause injury.  Yes, there is a cumulative effect that can lead back to youth in some cases.  But there are many cases where kids played it extra safe and still ended up injured.  Also, you simply won't find many that make it to the top that didn't play a ton of baseball when they were young. The Major Leagues has been full of USA born players that played travel ball and attended showcases.  1,100 of them played in PG events alone.  So the number of TJ surgeries that get the most publicity are MLB players or top prospects.  Most MLB players and top prospects played travel ball when they were younger. So those two things (Travel Ball and TJ) always seem to get linked. 

There is abuse at times in amateur baseball.  We all know that it exists.  It exists in all of amateur baseball to some degree, but for some reason it seems like travel ball gets most of the blame.  Truth is it does happen a lot among the youngest age groups. Personally I have seen a lot of abuse take place in high school baseball.  Anyway, people are doing things more and more to protect pitchers and that is a good thing.

I'm also going to take a leap here and say that, once they hit the showcase age, there is little "overuse" going on. Most of the projectable pitchers are on teams with serious pitching depth and they usually end up throwing a limited number of innings once per week - occasionally twice. Showcase teams concentrated with talent has been the best saving grace of arms at young ages. Where you see the real overuse problem in youth ball at older ages is on the smaller, local teams and at the rec level where a kid with some talent will be used at every possible opportunity because he dominates the level at which he's playing.

Heck, the big boys - the Rockers and Hankins's of the showcase world, stroll in and throw their 60-90 pitches once a week during the summer, being far less used than they will as pros.

younggun posted:

Well, coming from the perspective of a dad that has walked this road, my perspective mirrors closest to Coach Mays post, “not all hard throwers have TJ but almost all TJ patients are hard throwers.” This is based on my observations through the years and my conversation with Dr Andrews (who is the world authority in my opinion). He basically said exactly what Coach May expressed. I’m not discounting overuse as I have seen that as well. Just in my experience, the overuse issues seem to affect that player prior to reaching high school and certainly college baseball. 

I also believe genetics play a huge factor that we just have no way to quantify. Unfortunately, you can’t be great if you don’t spend a LOT of time at your craft. Baseball involves throwing. So you are going to have to throw hard and often and accept the associated risks. I do not intend for this to come off lightly. I HATE injuries and wish they were not so prevalent in the game we love so much. 

I agree as to genetics. I think it is the biggest factor. In fact, it's my belief that the way we handle pitching loads today is far superior and safer than at any point in the past. You've always had injuries - you just haven't always included surgery in the equation. When I was playing, there were plenty of injuries to pitchers. However, no one even thought about taking them to a surgeon. At best, they may go to the family doctor who would prescribe rest and aspirin. If the arm was blown out, you just stopped pitching when it got too bad. 

Today, we watch arms, we actively work on preparing them and we take injuries seriously, even at very young ages. Most importantly, we've become very sensitive to overuse. We never counted pitches, but I'd guess I had more than a dozen starts in high school and below where I threw 200+ pitches. Sometimes on only one or two days of rest. 

Here's where genetics come into play. There have always been the genetic freaks like Nolan Ryan who could throw heavy loads without injury until he was 90 years old. However, I think that today, we see a lot of kids throwing hard who make it into their mid-20's or so without injury who are not genetic freaks because we care for their arms and we prepare them for throwing. That same kid 25 years ago would have simply blown up his arm in high school or Little League and we never would have heard of him. He never even would have been a statistic - he would have simply faded away - no orthos and no TJ surgeries. Those same kids today, who may not have had the genetics necessary to make it past high school last a lot longer.

So, I always question this premise that injuries are way up because it's base strictly on how many surgeries are performed which, to me can only logically be used to support the contention that more pitchers at younger ages have access to the surgery route and that it is quite more common to be the chosen treatment for ucl tears than it was just a couple of decades ago. OK. Off my soapbox.

Sorry. That was just a repeat of Milodad's post which I failed to read earlier.

Root and Midlo, the only thing I would add is:

There is a positive correlation between throwing very hard and UCL tears

HS pitchers today throw harder than they did decades ago (example: look up PG rankings from 2002 -- above 92 for a RHP was very, very rare, and there are Top 50 players (RHP) topping out at 89)

Therefore there are probably more injuries now

During my 17 years with the Area Code games. Each year we produced 30% of the pitchers throwing over 90 mph. Josh Beckett at 97 mph.

See the photo of 6 pitchers on the 1997 Chicago White Sox team. This was the result of a "great" cooperation with the Pro Scouts. From the Regional tryouts to the National Games in Long Beach.

Bob

<www.goodwillseries.org>

Kids today have much better training, coaching, instruction, etc etc. Could it be more throw much harder at a younger age because of this? Why don't we see kids who don't throw hard having TJ? 

How many kids get hurt riding moto cross who don't ride? How many kids get hurt on skate boards who don't skate? How many kids get hurt in football who don't play football? How many kids end up having to have TJ from throwing a baseball who don't throw a baseball? 

If a young kid decides he wants to go all in and work to be the best he can be is the threat of a possible injury enough to make him say "Oh hell no I will just play X box." If your going to achieve anything great then you must accept the fact there will be risk. Part of that risk in the game of baseball is possible arm injury. Possibly getting beaned in the head. Possibly failing. 

Kids today are looked after much better than they were when I played. No pitch counts. Good grief put some atomic balm on it and suck it up. Lets take all the risk out of life and everyone can be safer. Maybe we should have a radar gun at every game and if a kid exceeds a certain level of velo for his age the pitch is automatically a ball. For Gods sake we don't want anyone to push it too hard. 

I never needed TJ. I wish I had. I always wanted to throw freaking gas. I would have gladly traded a scar on my elbow for some flames coming out of it. I got a couple scars on my knees from playing football. I got a shoulder that cracks and pops when I rotate it. I got a nice scar on my chin where a guys helmet got under mine and busted it good. Every time I see them or feel them I don't go "Dang I wish I hadn't have played I wouldn't have these aches and scars." No they are reminders that I freaking lived. They are reminders I went for it with no regrets. I wouldn't trade them for all the regrets in the world.

Yes I am for arm care. Yes I am for taking care of kids. Yes I am for advances in this and that. But I am not for this idea that somehow we need to eliminate risk for everything to be right. We need to understand that if we are going to be great the best we can be we understood the risk and didn't allow fear of it to stop us. 

Coach_May posted:

Yes I am for arm care. Yes I am for taking care of kids. Yes I am for advances in this and that. But I am not for this idea that somehow we need to eliminate risk for everything to be right. We need to understand that if we are going to be great the best we can be we understood the risk and didn't allow fear of it to stop us. 

I am all for arm care and I don't think we do enough...in the effort to protect all pitcher I don't think we should let them throw over 90 MPH or is deemed a ball, curve balls should outlawed and only let pitchers use the old football curve from LL...I would also propose doing away with change ups but that is probably taking it to far!!

With these few changes pitchers arm injuries will go way way down!

it is for the kids...

TPM posted:

Kyle Boddy  @ driveline.

I meant the "he has gone bigtime" comment

CaCO3Girl posted:

TPM posted:

Kyle Boddy  @ driveline.

I meant the "he has gone bigtime" comment

Get out of those HS chat sites and do some homework. You would be surprised whats going on in the world of baseball. 

Didnt you say your son was on a driveline program at one time?

Anyway, son took a trip up to driveline and all I can say is WOW! Trevor Bauer was there that day as were the Mariner  Brass. 

Driveline works with most of the ML teams and who knows how many big college programs.

I miss him stopping by here.

TPM posted:

CaCO3Girl posted:

TPM posted:

Kyle Boddy  @ driveline.

I meant the "he has gone bigtime" comment

Get out of those HS chat sites and do some homework. You would be surprised whats going on in the world of baseball. 

Didnt you say your son was on a driveline program at one time?

Anyway, son took a trip up to driveline and all I can say is WOW! Trevor Bauer was there that day as were the Mariner  Brass. 

Driveline works with most of the ML teams and who knows how many big college programs.

I miss him stopping by here.

I am well aware who Kyle Boddy is, and what Driveline is.

I am not aware why you would  state "Would like to hear Kyle weigh in on this, but he has gone bigtime ".....which is rather insulting to a great contributor to this site. 

TPM posted:

CaCO3Girl posted:

TPM posted:

Kyle Boddy  @ driveline.

I meant the "he has gone bigtime" comment

...

I miss him stopping by here.

Kyle's most recent post was 2/24/18. He still stops by more often than my son calls/texts me.  

Well this thread is certainly taking some strange turns!

Yes, of course, players should throw hard.  And regardless of any opinion, kids already are throwing hard, are being trained to throw hard and that isn't going to change.

I'm concerned about kids pitching and playing another position in the same day or weekend.  

Yes he stops by and not often enough but he is a busy guy. I have no clue what she is talking about, I didnt insult anyone I would just like to hear what he has to say regarding this topic. I just meant his life and business has changed since he first came here.

Why would I insult Kyle?  

CaCO3Girl posted:

TPM posted:

CaCO3Girl posted:

TPM posted:

Kyle Boddy  @ driveline.

I meant the "he has gone bigtime" comment

Get out of those HS chat sites and do some homework. You would be surprised whats going on in the world of baseball. 

Didnt you say your son was on a driveline program at one time?

Anyway, son took a trip up to driveline and all I can say is WOW! Trevor Bauer was there that day as were the Mariner  Brass. 

Driveline works with most of the ML teams and who knows how many big college programs.

I miss him stopping by here.

I am well aware who Kyle Boddy is, and what Driveline is.

I am not aware why you would  state "Would like to hear Kyle weigh in on this, but he has gone bigtime ".....which is rather insulting to a great contributor to this site. 

I don't think it was anything but a good-natured comment about Kyle's success. 

No mis-interpretting TPM's post here! 

3and2Fastball posted:

Well this thread is certainly taking some strange turns!

Yes, of course, players should throw hard.  And regardless of any opinion, kids already are throwing hard, are being trained to throw hard and that isn't going to change.

I'm concerned about kids pitching and playing another position in the same day or weekend.  

Hey we agree on something!  In our varsity game this past Tuesday the coach started a sophomore.  It was his first start and he did great.  5 innings 2 hits, no runs.  Top of the 6th he gave up a leadoff double.  Coach pulled him and sent him to 3rd base.  He brought in the SS (fantastic senior going to Power 5 SEC school).  He pitched the 6th and one run came in.  

In the 7th he brought the original starting pitcher back to the mound from 3rd base to pitch the inning.  Back at 3rd base again yesterday.  

No! Don't Call Bunt! posted:

3and2Fastball posted:

Well this thread is certainly taking some strange turns!

Yes, of course, players should throw hard.  And regardless of any opinion, kids already are throwing hard, are being trained to throw hard and that isn't going to change.

I'm concerned about kids pitching and playing another position in the same day or weekend.  

Hey we agree on something!  In our varsity game this past Tuesday the coach started a sophomore.  It was his first start and he did great.  5 innings 2 hits, no runs.  Top of the 6th he gave up a leadoff double.  Coach pulled him and sent him to 3rd base.  He brought in the SS (fantastic senior going to Power 5 SEC school).  He pitched the 6th and one run came in.  

In the 7th he brought the original starting pitcher back to the mound from 3rd base to pitch the inning.  Back at 3rd base again yesterday.  

I have to say I admire the time and effort you are putting in to playing devils advocate. It is very entertaining.

In regards to this current state of the country. Are you part of a Russian conspiracy to troll  baseball boards and rig our thoughts toward JV baseball?