Coach_May posted:

How many kids who can't throw hard, "at a high level" ever get diagnosed with needing TJ? Could it be that throwing hard is more of a risk than throwing too much? To be honest I have never heard of a kid needing it who couldn't really throw. Just throwing that out there for discussion. 

Maybe it’s a combination of velocity and wear and tear. The kid without the velocity doesn’t pitch/play enough for wear and tear to be an issue. 

I believe (no science, just a feel) players have hit the velocity limit of what an arm can endure safely. Have these players play long enough they’re bound to have arm/shoulder related injuries.

Nolan Ryan and Roger Clemens were just freaks of nature.

Two of sons best pitchers are lefties that use more off speed and breaking stuff to get guys out and not over powering with their FB.   One has sore shoulder the other out rest of season with detached ligament. 

Son never had an issue until he had to throw more sliders as his out pitch in professional ball.

I have come to the conclusion that it's not always one size fits all, but rather the more you play the greater your chance is for any injury.

JMO

3and2Fastball posted:

Personally, I think Perfect Game is a fabulous organization and has nothing to do with the concerns in this topic.   Anyone blaming Perfect Game for an elbow injury is sort of like blaming Dodgers Stadium for an elbow injury...

IDK, with position players maybe not directly but... In this day and age of PG and PBR and showcases and posting high numbers kids are hard pressed to throw the ball hard all the time.

roothog66 posted:

CaCO3Girl posted:

TPM posted:

CaCO3Girl posted:

TPM posted:

Kyle Boddy  @ driveline.

I meant the "he has gone bigtime" comment

Get out of those HS chat sites and do some homework. You would be surprised whats going on in the world of baseball. 

Didnt you say your son was on a driveline program at one time?

Anyway, son took a trip up to driveline and all I can say is WOW! Trevor Bauer was there that day as were the Mariner  Brass. 

Driveline works with most of the ML teams and who knows how many big college programs.

I miss him stopping by here.

I am well aware who Kyle Boddy is, and what Driveline is.

I am not aware why you would  state "Would like to hear Kyle weigh in on this, but he has gone bigtime ".....which is rather insulting to a great contributor to this site. 

I don't think it was anything but a good-natured comment about Kyle's success. 

Son just came back home last week from spending 7 months with Kyle at Driveline rehabbing from TJS.  He was able train alongside Bauer, Lincecum, lots of MLB, MiLB, and college guys while there....in fact he lived in a large house with nothing but guys that their daily job was training at Driveline.  It was a phenomenal experience, the "stuff" they do there is second to none.....Kyle has really made a big name for himself, and more than anything is just crazy busy now, which is a testament for what he has / is doing for the game with his analytical (yet common sense) approach of training baseball players.  There wasn't a week that went by while my son was there, that there were not coaches from big time colleges, MLB staff, on top of the players that train there.  Kyle still contributes "freely", however it is / has been taken to the "Twitter-sphere" rather than message boards.  He is a great Twitter follow.

Regarding the OP - I tend to fall on the side of roothog, a lot is just the mere advances in technology of the medical field to treat arm injuries, not necessarily that there are more of them.  And I also tend to fall on the side of genetics, which I believe was the case with my son....certainly was not overuse. 

Back Foot Slider - thanks for your contribution here.  Much appreciated.  Sounds like an amazing experience for your son.

RA Dickey has no UCL. Hough and Niekro threw to infinity. So maybe it is about hard throwing

BFS,

Where ya been? Glad to hear from you. How is your Son?

Thanks for weighing in. Yes Kyle definitely has " gone bigtime".  I follow him on twitter.

Thank you to you and to those who knew what I was talking about.

TPM posted:

BFS,

Where ya been? Glad to hear from you. How is your Son?

Thanks for weighing in. Yes Kyle definitely has " gone bigtime".  I follow him on twitter.

Thank you to you and to those who knew what I was talking about.

Hello Ms. TPM,

I am well thank you, hope  you and family are as well...sounds like your son is enjoying the next chapter of baseball life as a coach.

Son is doing well, he is not quite 10 months post-op from TJS.   Best choice by far to have him in Seattle for his rehab, without a doubt.  I would recommend that anyone who has a chance to train there (rehab or not), definitely don't pass it up.  In addition to the pro guys there in the off season, there were college pitchers who went there during their Christmas break, and worked out there before they returned for their season. The "stuff" they do there is amazing...they teach them how to eat (nutrition), sleep, train, rehab, and the arm care is phenomenal.  The work they are doing with the Motus sleeve, Rapsodo, pitchf x, not to mention the software they developed with their 3D high speed cameras are incredible.

If you're interested below is their home page (BFS Jr. is the one on the right).  He was cleared the day before he left Seattle, to air it out with a regulation baseball for 6 throws, and was at 93MPH.

https://www.drivelinebaseball.com/

I am going to try to check in more often, and comment on threads where appropriate.  Didn't want to hijack the thread regarding Kyle, or Driveline, but since we are still fresh from Jr. being there, I thought I'd chime in. 

CaCO3Girl posted:

TPM posted:

Kyle Boddy  @ driveline.

I meant the "he has gone bigtime" comment

Kyle has been real busy on twitter fighting imaginary dragons.

RJM posted:

Coach_May posted:

How many kids who can't throw hard, "at a high level" ever get diagnosed with needing TJ? Could it be that throwing hard is more of a risk than throwing too much? To be honest I have never heard of a kid needing it who couldn't really throw. Just throwing that out there for discussion. 

Maybe it’s a combination of velocity and wear and tear. The kid without the velocity doesn’t pitch/play enough for wear and tear to be an issue. 

I believe (no science, just a feel) players have hit the velocity limit of what an arm can endure safely. Have these players play long enough they’re bound to have arm/shoulder related injuries.

Nolan Ryan and Roger Clemens were just freaks of nature.

Thread drift:

While they may be at the limit of what the arm can endure safely, are they now, or will they ever be at the limit of how fast a human can throw a fastball?

Even if they are, they are not at the limit of HOW MANY humans can throw a fastball at maximum velocity.    

Buster Olney has an interesting blog post on that, as well as the effect on hitters in terms of HR and SO and the overall effect on the nature of the game itself here:  

http://www.espn.com/blog/buste...iffs-broken-baseball

One piece of info he includes is how much the number of MLB pitches thrown as 98+ has increased every year.  Pretty amazing.

“It used to be that when you saw a reliever hit 100 mph, it was a big deal,” one NL official said. “People in the game would talk about it. Now you’ll see some reliever you’ve never heard of step out of the bullpen throwing 100 mph every day.”

If you think that’s an exaggeration, consider the total number of pitches thrown at 98-plus mph year to year, passed along by Sarah Langs of ESPN Stats & Information:

2009: 4,618

2010: 5,363 

2011: 4,766

2012: 6,115

2013: 6,026

2014: 7,080

2015: 10,099

2016: 11,451

2017: 17,192

2018: 2,139 (and on pace for more than 20,000)

JCG posted:

RJM posted:

Coach_May posted:

How many kids who can't throw hard, "at a high level" ever get diagnosed with needing TJ? Could it be that throwing hard is more of a risk than throwing too much? To be honest I have never heard of a kid needing it who couldn't really throw. Just throwing that out there for discussion. 

Maybe it’s a combination of velocity and wear and tear. The kid without the velocity doesn’t pitch/play enough for wear and tear to be an issue. 

I believe (no science, just a feel) players have hit the velocity limit of what an arm can endure safely. Have these players play long enough they’re bound to have arm/shoulder related injuries.

Nolan Ryan and Roger Clemens were just freaks of nature.

Thread drift:

While they may be at the limit of what the arm can endure safely, are they now, or will they ever be at the limit of how fast a human can throw a fastball?

Even if they are, they are not at the limit of HOW MANY humans can throw a fastball at maximum velocity.    

Buster Olney has an interesting blog post on that, as well as the effect on hitters in terms of HR and SO and the overall effect on the nature of the game itself here:  

http://www.espn.com/blog/buste...iffs-broken-baseball

One piece of info he includes is how much the number of MLB pitches thrown as 98+ has increased every year.  Pretty amazing.

“It used to be that when you saw a reliever hit 100 mph, it was a big deal,” one NL official said. “People in the game would talk about it. Now you’ll see some reliever you’ve never heard of step out of the bullpen throwing 100 mph every day.”

 

If you think that’s an exaggeration, consider the total number of pitches thrown at 98-plus mph year to year, passed along by Sarah Langs of ESPN Stats & Information:

2009: 4,618

2010: 5,363 

2011: 4,766

2012: 6,115

2013: 6,026

2014: 7,080

2015: 10,099

2016: 11,451

2017: 17,192

2018: 2,139 (and on pace for more than 20,000)

 

All I can think of when I see those numbers is “100 Miles Giles”  is my team’s closer. 

There are many things that have to be considered with arm injuries. Too many in the baseball community have a lackadaisical approach to this issue and to me, that's one reason we're having the problems we're having. Dr. Andrews continues to demonstrate that we're having major issues as his pediatric UCL reconstructions just continues to climb. Yeah, he obviously is seeing those MLB and big-name players, but he's seeing a ton of high school kids too. Or the conversation that I had last week with an AT who works for a pediatric orthopedic surgeon and how the surgeon had done two UCL reconstructions the week before.

Research has shown that fatigue, biomechanics, and velocity are all contributing factors. Throwing over 90MPH is certainly a risk factor. And we're starting to develop all of these pitch count requirements in high school baseball, but do travel/select teams have them? Also, something that was posted recently on social media is that these pitch counts are probably only accounting for between 42-60% of pitches thrown on a game day. So, that makes me ask if maybe our current posted pitch count limits are to high?

The other thing that I see from personal experience is that we have to remember these are high school kids. Are they taking care of their arm properly to begin with? I don't think most are...

Bulldog 19 posted:

There are many things that have to be considered with arm injuries. Too many in the baseball community have a lackadaisical approach to this issue and to me, that's one reason we're having the problems we're having. Dr. Andrews continues to demonstrate that we're having major issues as his pediatric UCL reconstructions just continues to climb. Yeah, he obviously is seeing those MLB and big-name players, but he's seeing a ton of high school kids too. Or the conversation that I had last week with an AT who works for a pediatric orthopedic surgeon and how the surgeon had done two UCL reconstructions the week before.

Research has shown that fatigue, biomechanics, and velocity are all contributing factors. Throwing over 90MPH is certainly a risk factor. And we're starting to develop all of these pitch count requirements in high school baseball, but do travel/select teams have them? Also, something that was posted recently on social media is that these pitch counts are probably only accounting for between 42-60% of pitches thrown on a game day. So, that makes me ask if maybe our current posted pitch count limits are to high?

The other thing that I see from personal experience is that we have to remember these are high school kids. Are they taking care of their arm properly to begin with? I don't think most are...

For every high level travel team that I know, it is the parent that chooses the teams and dictates the innings and how his son will be utilized. So the travel teams argument gets old. It’s not the autonomous beast that burns up arms. I have had control of my sons innings/pitch count since 10u, when he started pitching. 

Now he is in high school. I don't have a direct say, but I have state pitch count rules. Good enough. I have it after high school season is over. Risk/reward. 

I think, but can’t prove, that parents  are smarter today about arm care thanks to internet, apps, boddey, cressey and a host of others.

younggun posted:

I also believe genetics play a huge factor that we just have no way to quantify. Unfortunately, you can’t be great if you don’t spend a LOT of time at your craft. Baseball involves throwing. So you are going to have to throw hard and often and accept the associated risks. I do not intend for this to come off lightly. I HATE injuries and wish they were not so prevalent in the game we love so much. 

I watched Max Scherzer strike out 15 in 6.1 IP last night. His 4-seam averages 93.5, but he can touch 98. He's 33 years old. No Tommy John. Genetics.

MidAtlanticDad posted:

younggun posted:

I also believe genetics play a huge factor that we just have no way to quantify. Unfortunately, you can’t be great if you don’t spend a LOT of time at your craft. Baseball involves throwing. So you are going to have to throw hard and often and accept the associated risks. I do not intend for this to come off lightly. I HATE injuries and wish they were not so prevalent in the game we love so much. 

I watched Max Scherzer strike out 15 in 6.1 IP last night. His 4-seam averages 93.5, but he can touch 98. He's 33 years old. No Tommy John. Genetics.

Not discounting genetics a bit but Scherzer has a bit of a unique offseason approach. He throws 3X / Week (not pitching, just throwing) every week in the offseason. In other words, there is no shut down period for him. He claims he used to shut it down completely for the typical 2-3 months & then crank it back up but he was always sore & arm felt terrible coming out of the shutdown. Just a FYI. I thought it was interesting & not common.

Steve A. posted:

MidAtlanticDad posted:

younggun posted:

I also believe genetics play a huge factor that we just have no way to quantify. Unfortunately, you can’t be great if you don’t spend a LOT of time at your craft. Baseball involves throwing. So you are going to have to throw hard and often and accept the associated risks. I do not intend for this to come off lightly. I HATE injuries and wish they were not so prevalent in the game we love so much. 

I watched Max Scherzer strike out 15 in 6.1 IP last night. His 4-seam averages 93.5, but he can touch 98. He's 33 years old. No Tommy John. Genetics.

Not discounting genetics a bit but Scherzer has a bit of a unique offseason approach. He throws 3X / Week (not pitching, just throwing) every week in the offseason. In other words, there is no shut down period for him. He claims he used to shut it down completely for the typical 2-3 months & then crank it back up but he was always sore & arm felt terrible coming out of the shutdown. Just a FYI. I thought it was interesting & not common.

Whatever he's doing, it works for him. He's a rare talent.

It's amazing to see these guys throw so hard.  But just as impressive is how well batters can hit these guys.  A straight 98mph pitch down the middle is a HR.  

BFS and I go back a few years and as he said, his son was at our facility for some time. Work ethic was not an issue. I look forward to his future as he solidly bet on himself and he developed rather well while at our facility. Touching 93+ MPH on his last day well ahead of TJ recovery schedule is a testament to not only how hard he worked, but how he developed assertiveness from day one to the last day at Driveline - the athletes who speak up and take charge of their training in unison with our machine learning-based software to track and monitor workload get the most out of it, and BFS Jr. was no exception. I am pleased to hear good things about my staff, and as BFS noted himself - and he can probably back it up with some unreturned texts he has sent me! - I'm busy and traveling a lot, as my consulting work with MLB teams and partnerships with organizations like TPI picks up steam.

I miss the period of time where I could be on the floor five days a week, training athletes, connected to it all, but like in any business, growth is a natural process. We have 21 full-time employees and 8 paid interns, and I have to trust that I have developed them as staff and family and let them do their job while I manage our growing R&D team in a separate building.

I know TPM decently, and her son David very well. The "big time" comment was good natured, I am sure of it. Just received poorly on the Internet, as it often can be.

As for me and where I have gone, I read the site here every so often, but most of you know my policies; I generally don't comment on Driveline-specific posts unless there are gross inaccuracies. I took this stance mostly from Jerry Ford's online demeanor, which is one of astute professionalism. I think to intervene in threads is to stifle free speech, and I do my best to not get in the middle of that. People should be free to say things, good and bad, without fear that I'm going to interrupt or correct anyone over small things.

That being said, I figured I'd chime in, just like BFS did, about what we're doing and where I'm usually at. I'll try to make it a priority to post more. BB101 has a month+ of posts that have nothing to do with what I'm interested in, so I'll keep a closer eye here on HSBBW.

Thanks everyone for their support over the years, and now. It means a lot.

Kyle,

Yes, my comment was meant to be a compliment. I think that BFS's post is an example of the great stuff going on at Driveline.  There are a few others here whose sons have been recipients of participating at Driveline and as DK says, you wouldn't believe what's going on there.

Thanks for stopping by.