could this be???

Once a player attends one class the team looses all rights.
Not sure what you mean by special clause.

I would think he's done as far as minor league until after three years of school or 21. He's started class. Wouldn't make a difference who has rights.

quote:

I would think he's done as far as minor league until after three years of school or 21.

This is my understanding of how it works, but have been told in this case, (and I quote), a "work around" clause (some legal wording of some type) was inserted in the contract to make allowances if this scenario happened. Just wondering if loopholes existed that possibly could make this true.

What loophole could it be?

It is clearly stated that once a player sets foot on campus they lose rights to that player. If a 4 year player, they must wait until he is 21 or junior or a JUCO another year to draft him again.


The same way it is if a player signs with an agent he loses his eligibility. No loopholes.

Does anyone know differently?

coach, there cannot be a "contract" in use that the player signed.
If the player signed a MLB contract, then he is not eligible for college baseball at the DI level. So, the clause could not be in that contract.
There is no contract with a DI, it is an NLI and MLB will not recognize any language in an NLI. MLB has the rules about the draft and they aren't full of loopholes and you cannot have a contract with a school or the NLI that gives you any leverage with the draft.
To illustrate, Rice had a pitcher drafted 2 years ago. Not signed during the summer. He went to class but said he would not play college baseball. He asked MLB to waive the provision and allow him to continue to negotiate with his drafting team. MLB said that upon returning to school and enterring the classroom, the player lost his draft eligibility until the next year he would be eligible, whether he plays or not. So that player lost both in the draft and forfeited a college season.
There isn't much wiggle room here. I think there might be some misunderstanding of what happened in the situation you describe. Based on that player going to school, he lost his ability to sign until he is again draft eligible whether he played in college or not.

sorry..I guess I was not clear in that the young man did not sign the MLB contract. Seems he was very undecided at the time right up until classes started and ended up going on to college but now has second thoughts.
The person who was talking about this said... and I quote again, "He has an out" because of something (a clause of some kind) that was put in the original contract offered.

Thanks for all your responses!

What I questioned was the person saying it wasn't the first day of class attendance that meant he would forego his draft eligiblity, it was the playing in the first official game of the season and somehow that was stated in the contract offered.

IFDad... when would this young man become draft eligible again say if he would decide not to play ball this spring?

coach, if he didn't sign the contract, then any "out" in the contract cannot be enforced by him.
The "out" would only become possible if he signed the contract and "IF" it was signed and accepted by MLB. Any "waiver" or "addition" to the MLB standard form contract would require MLB approval.
If your information is right, and the player did not sign the contract, the player has no right to enforce an "out" since there isn't a contract. It is just an offer that was rejected. From what you were provided, this player does not have an "out."

quote:

IFDad... when would this young man become draft eligible again say if he would decide not to play ball this spring?

coach, so long as he stays in a 4 year college, he can next be draft eligible when he is 21 or after his junior year. This is true whether he plays in the Spring or does not. That was the point of my reference to the pitcher from Rice. MLB does not care whether you play, they care if you are enrolled.
If he transferred to a JC, before Spring,then I think he could be eligible earlier than that as are all other JC players.

Thanks IFdad...now I can stand firm in my discussion that this just couldn't be the case!
That there is absolutely no way this young man at this point in time can go pro.

quote:

If he transferred to a JC, before Spring,then I think he could be eligible earlier than that as are all other JC players.

Didn't catch this first time thru....would he be eligible for draft this June?

I am not the best resource for the JC. With that said, my impression is that if the player transfered to the JC and played there, then they have draft eligibility come June of 2007. I cannot think of a reason they would not. Many players took the JC route for the draft and follow until MLB removed the DFE option this Fall. So, it seems logical the player who transfers from a DI to a JC and plays there is draft eligible as a JC player. This is from general knowledge of JC, not ever having looked at it as carefully as the 4 year option, and knowing not everything here is always logical.

Why can't said player sign a free agent contract?

Move to the DR are some other country.
They don't have to be drafted?
Heck you can be under 18 and get a contract.

Now if said player was drafted out of HS.
And stepped foot onto a 4 year college campus.
Drafted team loses draft right's to said player.

Now if said player leave's college in middle of first semester.
Can player sign a free agent contract with any team?
Are does the original drafting team have some right's to that player.
I would think that would have to be the case??
I don't know that's why I'm asking?
EH

What is really trying to be achieved here?

Just play the dang game. Go search all the rules of leverge, but his thread is a waste of time.

FIELD OF PLAY...........the great common denominator! Move on !!

Yes play the game, That's what it's about.

But I still want to know the answer to my question?
EH

I would say he can not be a free agent because he WAS drafted. He chose to go to school, so the team that drafted him loses all rights when he went to 4 yr school. He should check with an advisor be fore transfering

But like you said Drafting team loses right's.
Then said player decide's to leave college.
What happen's then?
Does player have to reenter Draft are can he sign a free agent contract?
EH

Said player went to school, who the heck would leave school after a semester and transfer to think that they might get drafted again. He can't just LEAVE, to play somewhere else, especially if he signed an NLI.
Was the player THAT good?
I am not real sure about the purpose of this thread.
Stay in school, work hard at your game, maybe you might get lucky and get drafted, again.

EH/OS8,
I know you are looking at this like the free enterprise system.
It isn't.
If you want to be drafted, you do it according to the rules of MLB and any modifications from the collective bargaining agreement. MLB has an antitrust exemption. They can do things others cannot.
The NCAA is also a monstrosity. Last season, a young man was drafted in the 3rd round and signed for a very nice bonus. Within one week, he knew minor league ball was not for him and wanted his release/void the contract so he could play DI ball.
No luck. He is out of professional ball and out of college ball at the DI level.
Not only is this a valuable thread, it is invaluable. For anyone with a son heading potentially into professional baseball, I recommend learning everything you can because it is "hardball" business for our son's and fairness isn't always the result.
It isn't leave school and become a free agent. Free agents cost MLB more money than drafted players. If this young man leaves school, he sits until he is 21 for the chance to be drafted.
Njbb has a great point. Before heading to a JC, better understand the rules as they relate to draft
The draft rules are not subject to manipulation and this isn't just play ball.

quote:

If you want to be drafted, you do it according to the rules of MLB and any modifications from the collective bargaining agreement. MLB has an antitrust exemption. They can do things others cannot.

Man, if that isn't a cold, slap in the face, I don't know what is. I would rather deal in truth than fantasy infielddad so your perspective is appreciated.

It's kind of like the old joke, "Why do Rock Stars date Super Models?" Because they can. MLB does what it does because it can. There is no minor league union or what not to balance things so what we have is the equivalent of a Vietnamese sweat shop. Not saying the unions are a panacea - just using them as an example of leverage that does not exist at the minor league level. The only leverage is talent and that may not even be enough sometimes.

You know what, you are right infielddad, this is a good thread.

Understand the rules, how they are played and all of the implications, whether you sign to play pro ball or go to college. Once you make up your mind, it's not a thing that can be so easily changed in 6 months.

Just that we keep saying, it's not how it works and life coach just not getting it.

quote:

I would rather deal in truth than fantasy infielddad so your perspective is appreciated.

CD, I actually find the fantasy aspect a lot more fun. It just seems like the more I look for fantasy in Milb, the more I run into reality.
With that said, when I watch and talk with our son about his rehab, I realize the intensity with which young men pursue a dream/fantasy in what can be a very tough minded business.

quote:

it's not how it works and life coach just not getting it.

TPM I get it ; its the person who is claiming what I described as the case that doesn't. I like to deal with facts too and that's why I presented this situation in a thread here. I knew I would get great input from some very knowledgable posters. In fact IFdad's posts have enlightened me even more. Isn't that the purpose of the HSBBWEB? Please forgive me if I am wrong.

infielddad
i may be wrong but if that boy is out of mlb,after 3 weeks or a season he can still play college ball? maybe not d1? there is a ncaa rule that allows players that don't make it in the minors to play in college. i believe they need to pay back some money? not 100% sure.and if he only lasted a short time he may not have recieved his signing bonus,only some per diem money.

i think if the original player in this question leaves school ,he is a free agent? probably won't get much money if any to sign.this may be worth looking into.

my son signed a contract in june ,needed tommy john so the team voided his contract. now he can sign as a free agent or go to school and play. the team he was with had dozens of free agents in camp.keep in mind only usa college and high school kids get drafted,the rest of the world are free agents. i didn't realize this either.

Two questions that may have already been answered: When my son was drafted out of high school he was asked to sign a “redraft agreement”. If I remember correctly, this assured the club that signed him first right of refusal the next time he became draft eligible. Anyone know what the “re-draft agreement” is?

What if the player completely withdrew from a D-1 college, when would he be eligible to sign?

good topic - shows the importance of clearly understanding your options when making important decisions

quote:

by 20dad: i think if the original player in this question leaves school,he is a free agent?

if (US citizen) he was drafted out of hs there is no action HE can take to make himself a free agent - -
any event causing him to become a free agent would come from mlb ... contract voided, contract not tendered, or going undrafted in next eligeble draft.

think about it, the draft would be useless if a top drafted player (or any player) could cause himself to be allowed to negotiate with 30 teams instead of 1

fungo et all - redraft agreement ... a team can't redraft a player they had previously drafted and NOT signed without player's OK ... so it's not a first right of refusal as the player could be be picked by another team before the redraft team gets their chance

quote:

by fungo: What if the player completely withdrew from a D-1 college, when would he be eligible to sign?

with who? the drafting team lost rights when he attended class - not temporarily, but forever

someone in his situation needs accurate advice on when his next draft chance is & what steps must be taken ie; transfer JC, drop out & hardship petition mlb, etc

free-agency is not in the forecast

quote:

The only leverage is talent and that may not even be enough sometimes.

RE: could this be???
, it seems very confusing! and interesting...the player may write the commissioner for an appeal...but...???

infielddad referred to this "bag of worms" story...http://hsbaseballweb.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/7106002781/m/2231056761?r=4401069761#4401069761

Timeline of a Top Prospect:
Chapter 1
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/spt/highsch...seball.176312b9.html

Chapter 2 (for 6 more years):
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/spt/basebal...ancock.172082f5.html

Uniform Minor League Contract:

http://www.attheyard.com/AskTheExperts/printer_2.shtml
http://www.attheyard.com/AskTheExperts/article_92.shtml

For info regarding Free Agency, see this pdf file, Article XX, pg. 65, Free Agency.
http://www.businessofbaseball.com/docs/2002_2006basicagreement.pdf


**found this on Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MLB_Draft
A club generally retains the rights to sign a selected player for one week prior to the next draft, or until the player enters, or returns to, a four-year college on a full-time basis. A selected player who enters a junior college cannot be signed until the conclusion of the school's baseball season. A player who is drafted and does not sign with the club that selected him may be drafted again at a future year's draft, so long as the player is eligible for that year's draft. A club may not select a player again in a subsequent year, unless the player has consented to the re-selection.

A player who is eligible to be selected and is passed over by every club becomes a free agent and may sign with any club, up until one week before the next draft, or until the player enters, or returns to, a four-year college full-time or enters, or returns to, a junior college. In the one-week period before any draft, which is called the "closed period", the general rule is that no club may sign a new player.

This description is a general one and the Major League Baseball Rules themselves, not this summary, govern eligibility issues. Players and coaches with questions about particular players are referred to the Baseball Operations Department at the Office of the Commissioner of Baseball.

quote:

infielddad
i may be wrong but if that boy is out of mlb,after 3 weeks or a season he can still play college ball? maybe not d1? there is a ncaa rule that allows players that don't make it in the minors to play in college. i believe they need to pay back some money? not 100% sure.and if he only lasted a short time he may not have recieved his signing bonus,only some per diem money.

20s, there is a big difference between players who do not make it in the minors and a player who signs a contract and does not want to play. In the former, the players were "released" by their club/contract. I understand they can play DII/DIII in some situations, after being released by the ML club.
In the situation I described, the team is not voiding the contract or releasing the player from it. The ML team says the contract is signed and if the young man wishes to play baseball, it will be under that contract.
The common theme in each situtation is that once you sign a ML contract, you play with that team until you are relased or the contrac voided by the team.
I agree with Bee. MLB does not want players to find "loopholes" in the draft process. Players cannot cotrol the process by dropping out of school and the like.

quote:

MLB does not want players to find "loopholes" in the draft process. Players cannot cotrol the process by dropping out of school and the like

Are there loop holes??

I'm just bringing it up for thought.

I'm with TPM, Why would you not finish what you started at College. You made your choice.

It just seem's like a waste of time for a player, to wait for the next draft, Rather than talking to the Original club that drafted them, And work out a deal??
Just food for thought.
EH

"A club may not select a player again in a subsequent year, unless the player has consented to the re-selection".

Must be what Fungo is talking about, interesting, you learn something new on teh HSBBW everyday!

Thanks baseballmom!

I read some where that it a drafted player who drops out of 4 yr college has to get permission from the baseball commissoner to reenter the next yrs draft.
Scott Boras would have all his top players drafted, attend college, drop out and become free agents,

quote:

It just seem's like a waste of time for a player, to wait for the next draft, Rather than talking to the Original club that drafted them, And work out a deal??
Just food for thought.

EH, the reason that cannot happen is MLB draft rules prevent it from happening. If there was any question, now it is even more clear. With the new CBA, if a drafted player is not signed by 8/15 following the draft, they lose the right to sign whether they go to a 4 year college, a JC, or choose not to attend college.
In the world of professional baseball, being a free agent is usually a very valuable position. It allows the player to negotiate with every club, not just one. Because of that, MLB requires players(US citizens and a few others) to "earn" free agency status. Since MLB is paying the money, they, rightfully, control to whom and how it gets paid in every situation they can anticipate and the draft is one of those.
Think of it this way. If Scott Boras, or any other agent represented any #1 pick who was a high school player, they would hold that player out and not have him sign by 8/15...if he could then have that player declared a free agent. That will not happen.
While I appreciate you are looking at what is best for the player or a "waste" of time and talent of a player, that isn't much of a factor when MLB establishes the draft and signing rules.

WOW, can you imagine what would go on if there were no rules?

Drafted player decides to go to school, after one semester, realizes school is not for him and he might not start. Wants drafting team to take him back.

Drafted player decides to sign, after a few weeks decides this is not what he thought it would be, wants out of contract and wants to go to college that he signed his NLI with.

I don't know the rules, I wouldn't expect everyone here to know them either. That's why if going pro and giving up college is a very big consideration, an advisor can explain all the rules and implications for final decisions.

quote:

by ifdad: I appreciate you are looking at what is best for the player or a "waste" of time and talent of a player

isn't losing signing rights at a deadline (8/15 or attending class) protecting the player??
the club has a finite time period to present their best offer or risk losing the player & wasting that pick - that's in the players best interest, not in his best interest is entering college & then having the team present their "offer of the week" as time drags on

here the player WAS protected by the system - in effect he told the team "no thanks" and walked away without thinking much ...

some folks should just hit their thumb with a hammer

Bee, to the extent the new deadline forces earlier decisions, that can work to the benefit of the player. However, if the player isn't signed and goes to a 4 year school, he isn't eligible to be drafted until age 21 or after his junior year.
The team that did not sign him gets to repeat that pick in next draft plus their regular pick for that draft. Just my view, but, on its face, I think this gives the team a bit more leverage than it does the player. In the past the team would waste the pick if the player did not sign. Now, the team gets additional picks the following year for players not signed.
In general, I think we are talking about a very small percentage of players. The number who signed out of high school and decided they hated it and wanted to "void" the contract does not seem to be many. The number who don't sign and end up "unhappily" in college does not seem to be many.
This may change some with the removal of the draft/follow for the JC option. I do think this thread shows how complicated things can be and why every player who has these types of options out of high school can use the benefit of very good and comprehensive information or an extremely good advisor.

infielddad
your right two different things, i'm sorry .i read this a little different with my morning eye's.didn't mean to confuse or give bad advice. again oops.

In rereading some of my posts in this thread, I feel as though I came off too critical and a bit like a jerk. My apologies. I think there is a lot of good and relevent input and information from multiple sources in this thread. I hope my comments didn't diminish that information.