Curious on opinions of coach's decision

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:
This is basketball. But it's really about a coaching decision. The freshman team knew the varsity coach would be in attendance at their game today. Two starters had an educational field trip yesterday to DC. The coach has a rule if players miss practice before the day of the game they're benched. The two players asked if they went on the school sponsored class field trip and missed practice would they be allowed to play. They wouldn't have gone if he didn't OK it. He told them they would play because the trip part of school. They played two minutes of garbage time at the end of the game.

Yes one was my son. He's not upset. He was just ticked off. He felt like the coach lied to him. I'm not ticked off even though I thought it was BS. I've formed my opinion on this coach long ago. The clincher was when he made them run suicides for two hours for "blowing" an undefeated season last week.

Opinions?

From what I can tell, you or your son interpretted the coach differently than he meant for his answer to be interpretted. The bold above I think is important. From what I can gather, he didn't say they'd play a lot, or start, etc. He said they'd play. Which you said they did.

Was the coach being completely honest? Hard to say.

It seems like the coach's tone of response and body language might have been regarded. Without that input here, it's hard to make a judgment.

just my opinion. they knew the rules so they should not have even asked the coach about the trip. but it's freshman bb so they get a pass.coach said they'd play ,they did. did he just make those two player's run? many life lessons for the two to learn .school comes first should be the top one.
really don't see it as a big deal,but that's me.

As a starter wouldn't you assume playing means status quo or being part of the rotation you've been in all season? As a coach wouldn't you assume it's what the starter is asking? As a coach wouldn't you define your response? I don't consider two minutes of garbage time playing, especially when the varsity coach is scouting. As my son said, "Big deal! I stripped a stiff twice and got two easy layups."

I agree it's hard to get a real good judge on what he meant. In my opinion it's bogus that he held this against these kids. Coaches stress academics come first and this is an educational field trip. I am assuming you meant Washington DC when you said DC - this trip will take your breath away being around all this history. It could make a lasting impact on their life - I know it did me.

This is the way I look at it - I would rather they miss practice than a game. By the time games start playing practice is not about learning - it's about keeping sharp and fresh. Missing one practice won't hurt them especially for an academic trip.

Now the flip side is if I have a kid who is involved in everything is missing quite a bit of practice and games for different field trips then he and I need to sit down and reasses priorities. This kid is spreading himself too thin. If it's a one time thing - no big deal.

quote:

school comes first should be the top one.

It appears to me the coach made it very clear basketball takes priority over education. Neither kid had missed any other games or practices. My son isn't worried about his basketball future. He's been asked to play on one of the HS prep summer teams by the varsity coach. He's being allowed to play around his travel baseball schedule. He just felt lied too. I've taught him honesty matters. When we were done discussing it he said, "Hey, baseball officially starts Monday."

RJM,
You've said you've already made up your mind about this coach, so perhaps the following may not interest you, but....

Sounds like the varsity coach already knows your son can play, and has invited him onto a team where your son will get an extended opportunity to be seen. So isn't it possible that the freshman coach --perhaps by request-- played other kids in preference to your son, so that the varsity coach would be able to see lower profile kids? If the two boys are dominant players, their mere presence in the game can work to keep anybody else from having an opportunity to shine.

3FingeredGlove that could be a very good point and what happened but it would seem like the coach would take the two good kids and tell them. Especially after the whole issue of "if we miss will we get to play". You sit them down and tell them this is a chance for the other guys to shine and most kids will get fired up to see them do well.

My son's HSBB coach had the same rule. My son and his teammate missed practice due to junior day at Stetson University and were "excused". The next game son pitched (his rotation)he was put in relief and his friend (a starter) was put in as a sub. They never went to a junior day after that.

The week before a player was out of a game due to his sister's wedding. That was the rule, you miss practice, you miss a game. I think that the coach would have liked to adhere to his rule in son and his friends case, but the school board says no penalties for missed games or practices. There were no hard feelings, I think he was just trying to do the best he could under the circumstances.

I may have to explain a little more about this coach to provide my perspective. I realize this is my view.

The team is easily ten deep in freshman level talent, yet he went with a seven man rotation all year. I disagree even if it would have cut into my son's playing time.

When they eventually lost a game he punished the players(suicides for two hours) even though it looked to me like he got outcoached (I coach the same age group in travel).

He employs a full court trap the entire game even if the team is up by thirty or forty points. They've beaten teams 60-15 and trapped to the end. There was one game they were up about 30-4 at the half and the other five players still didn't play until the end.

When up thirty points he doesn't clear the bench until the last two minutes. Once again I disagree even though it would cut into my son's playing time.

He singled out three baseball players he discovered were attending optional preseason workouts (not interferring with basketball) by getting in their faces and screaming about their lack of commitment to basketball and lack of commitment to their teammates in front of the entire team (yes my son was one of them).

What I see is a freshman coach trying to build a resume by running up scores and embarassing opponents rather than developing players.

I don't have a problem with the Bob Knight approach to coaching. But I see some things that lack integrity. The good news is my son won't have to play for him again.

What did come out of today is two kids who should have been getting playing time all year got some good court time.

Every year before a student can tryout for a sport they along with their parents have to attend a school meeting. In this meeting the A.D. explains to everyone that playing high school sports as a student athelete is a privilege and if you make the team there is no guarantee of playing time. Also they make a point of letting you know that you are representing your high school.

That being said one of the problems that I don't understand is the conflict between coaches and teachers. To many times I have seen coaches punish a player for missing practice because of a school function. There are also coaches who will go out of their way to support their players when a school function may interfere. Also have seen teachers penalize student atheletes because of their participation in sports.


My son missed a s****r practice to make up a test he missed when he was out sick. His coach gave him the option to run in front of the team or sit out one game. Thought this was a good way to not penalize the player.On the other hand during baseball playoff's last year son's game was delayed in third inning because of rain. Had to finish game the next day at 12:00 noon. So players had to leave school early. Son missed test in latin and got a zero, and teacher would not let him make it up. Thought this was totally unacceptable but there was nothing we could do. I think that if it is a school function you should not be penalized unless it becomes chronic and interfere's with the team. Must remember that these are student atheletes meaning student and athelete.

If this was truly a school activity don't think players should have been penalized.


JMO

Banditsbb

quote:

He employs a full court trap the entire game even if the team is up by thirty or forty points. They've beaten teams 60-15 and trapped to the end. There was one game they were up about 30-4 at the half and the other five players still didn't play until the end.

Well as long as the coach feels good about himself that is all that matters. What a ****. Guys like him give coaches a bad name. Is this a really young guy - like out of college?

As a coach I loved hearing you as a parent make the comment you wanted to see more kids play and get experience even if it means your son losing some time. That says a lot about you and your son because that attitude will trickle down to him.

One of my son's teammates was recruited last year to play freshman basketball. He politely declined saying he need to prepare for the baseball season. The coach insisted and told him that basketball would not interfere. After a few practices he decided that he didn't want to play basketball. The coach told him if he quit he would not play another sport for the rest of the school year. The kid who is pretty athletic was kept on the bench the entire season. The basketball coach asked him to play again this year. His answer of course was no. My son heard a similar story about the s****r coaches so he passed on s****r even though he was offered a varsity spot.

RJM,

For me the bottom line is that he was attending a school sanctioned educational event and he should not have been penalized at all for this. I feel the coach needs to utilize his brain and determine when a missed practice is legitimate.

RJM,
Welcome to the world of HS sports.

When #1 was a frosh, he played basketball and baseball. Unaware of policies, we checked with the AD during basketball season, to see if we were going to be allowed to take a family spring break trip (we were ignorant of practice schedules and there were no games on the schedule for that timeframe). The AD told us, that as long as it was a family trip, and he wasn't varsity, no problem.

They wound up scheduling 7 games during spring break. My son was forced to sit one game for each he missed. When I told the coach we had the AD's blessing, the AD couldn't remember the conversations we had, on several occasions.

Your coach is a piece of garbage, they're not the rule, but there's plenty out there.

Our high school coaches have the same rule. I do like it when the coaches are consistent and enforce the rule even if it is their star player or an academic issue. That way there is no guesswork involved - yes - tough decisions have to be made.

This rule definitely has my boys jumping through hoops to go to practices in all sports - parents need to learn not to schedule dentist appts, weekend trips, etc. The players can go in before school for help if needed, etc.

We had a starting player one year that was 5 minutes late getting to the field before a game. His mom decided to take his sister first to her dance practice - making her son late for the game even though the son was begging her to get him to school on time. Another player got the start in the outfield - had the performance of his lifetime both defensively and at the plate. The poor late player had to sit out most of the rest of the year after the replaced player had taken advantage of his break and contined to perform well. (I'm not sure how that marriage survived after that mom messed up!)

I don't like your coaches other actions but I do like consistent rules.

quote:

The coach told him if he quit he would not play another sport for the rest of the school year. The kid who is pretty athletic was kept on the bench the entire season. The basketball coach asked him to play again this year. His answer of course was no. My son heard a similar story about the s****r coaches so he passed on s****r even though he was offered a varsity spot.

How can the coach of one sport keep a kid from playing another sport in that school year? I don't advocate a kid quitting a sport to concentrate on baseball but if they do quit I will welcome them with open arms.

Our HS has a rule you miss a practice, regardless of the reason, you sit the next game--I actually think the rule applied to all schools in the district---I also believe that they made exceptions for academic situations

Classic example of jock vs academia conflict in HS. These situations happened yesterday, today, and will happen tomorrow. HS is such a short part of a persons life and I think it is proven that parental intervention does nothing more than stir the pot for more problems. It sounds like the penalty was minor so maybe this is one of those lessons that Mom/Dad try to explain. Being a glass half full kind of guy I would sit down with Junior and use the experience to teach................

1. That half truths and deception usually cause more problems than solutions.

2. Always think out your decisions and stand by them regardless of the outcome. Be true to yourself.

3. There are many other lessons but probably the hardest is............Take a step back, remove emotion from the situation, and try to understand how/why the coach took the direction he did. Your feelings may not change but wearing the other shoe sometimes opens eyes, if not now, maybe some other time. This is hard to do and it takes practice, might as well start now.

With many of the "lessons" life throws at us you usually have to take a punch in order to learn from them. I would take this little "punch" and try and turn it into a life long lessons that your son may think about down the road.

Don't let him try to understand it himself, put it into perspective and walk it through with him. You don't learn this in school.

I don't think there's enough storage space on this website to handle all the anecdotes and comments about high school coaches in general and freshman coaches in particular. Power is very important to some of these guys so understanding that, it's best to let it go and allow your son to learn a small lesson in human nature.

quote:

it's best to let it go and allow your son to learn a small lesson in human nature.

You'll gnash your teeth less at night too!

I should have added, that once the edict came down, we just took it. Wife and I went to every game he sat and cheered the team.

quote:

Originally posted by coach2709:

quote:

He employs a full court trap the entire game even if the team is up by thirty or forty points. They've beaten teams 60-15 and trapped to the end. There was one game they were up about 30-4 at the half and the other five players still didn't play until the end.

Well as long as the coach feels good about himself that is all that matters. What a ****. Guys like him give coaches a bad name. Is this a really young guy - like out of college?

I'm guessing he's late twenties. His uncle is a legendary high school coach. I was talking to an NBA coach (coach his nephew in travel) who said the uncle molded him into the player he was and the coach he is today. The uncle is a local legend. The uncle has a Bob Knight coaching style which is a style I don't have an issue and neither does my son. Another parent who played for the uncle commented sarcasticly about the freshman coach, "He's just like the uncle except the knowledge and the(hundreds) victories." My son once commented the assistant coach is actually the coach who knows the game well.

I don't have an issue with no practice, no play under normal circumstances. I coach the same way with a very finite list of legit excuses (education, religion, significant family events like a wedding).

DO we have a disgruntled DADDY here--- ??

My answer---the boy is just a freshman, albeit much heralded by his dad---LEARN TO LIVE WITH IT !!!---this won't be the last time this happens

I am guessing that coach handled it the way he did so as not to be accused of bending rules for "special" players and have to hear from the parents of the bench warmers. I really don't understand why you are so upset.

As an aside, in our school district, if you quit a HS sport in mid season, you are not allowed to play another sport that year. I think it is a good rule.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
DO we have a disgruntled DADDY here--- ??

My answer---the boy is just a freshman, albeit much heralded by his dad---LEARN TO LIVE WITH IT !!!---this won't be the last time this happens

I'm not disgruntled with the situation. As I stated earlier, I formed my opinion along with most of the other parents about this guy much earlier in the season. I've kept my mouth other than a couple of discreet conversations with parents I trust. I've told my son just develop his game. I was just curious how other coaches would handle the situation and how other parents would perceive it.

The issue I have is a coach who has lied to the players several times this season, not developing players with potential (the coach in me), and punishing the team (two hours of suicides) for blowing an undefeated season (he was outcoached) after starting 14-0. As I see it, he thinks they blew "his" undefeated season. The teams he trapped until the end with a forty point lead were the two teams he lost to last year. He chewed the team out after games they only won by ten points. Assuming they win the last game, they will finish 17-1.

I was talking to the dad of the best player on the team this week. He said his son has never commented before about wanting a season to be over before. Freshman are old enough to figure out when a coach is full of it. They were 22-2 in middle school. A core of them are on an 11-1 travel team I coach. So they know it's not all about the coaching. There's talent. Imagine 17-1 and players can't wait for it to end. The good news is after this week the guy is in my son's review mirror.

quote:

The good news is after this week the guy is in my son's review mirror.

Just hope the coach doesn't move up to JV next year...

quote:

Originally posted by golfball:

quote:

The good news is after this week the guy is in my son's review mirror.

Just hope the coach doesn't move up to JV next year...

No chance. The JV coach isn't going anywhere with his son coming up to JV. Let's not even go there! The varsity coach is a well established, successful coach.

RJM-It's obvious to me that you're not a "disgruntled DADDY" from all your previous posts. My gosh, your son is a starter on a team that has only lost 1 game out of 18. You advocate more playing time for some players who rarely get into the games at the expense of your own son's playing time. You question the coach's moronic decision to run suicides after the first loss
of the season after HIS decision to bench two starters??????? Seems to me you're pretty level headed and understand what it takes to be a good coach. Winning does not always make someone a good coach--it just makes them a WINNING coach. There are good coaches who have losing seasons. In my opinion, a good coach is one who can look back at end of the year and know in his heart that he developed EVERY player to the fullest of his ability and was fair to all.

A HS coach never knows what his personnel(player makeup) is going to be from one year to the next. 2&20 could actually be a better coaching job than 20&2. These coaches need to get over themselves.

quote:

Originally posted by sluggo:

As an aside, in our school district, if you quit a HS sport in mid season, you are not allowed to play another sport that year. I think it is a good rule.

That's a ludicrous rule. You think the coach should be able to hold a student/player hostage? This basically gives the coach free reign to do whatever he wants and you don't have the right to walk away.

At the most basic level, it should be, "if you don't like it, you don't have to play". There should be no repercussion from that. It completely absolves the adult coach from all responsibility to try and teach and work things out with players. I'd be in the AD's office raising a little hell over that rule, and then on to the school board. No one single person should have that much control over a kids destiny as to have him banished from all sport for a whole year.

Maybe it is ludicrous. What do the HS coaches out there think?

Our school has a policy that if you quit a sport, you can't join another one until the season from the original sport is over.

So say a basketball player quits so he can concentrate on football. Technically he cannot be in the weight room with the football team until basketball season is over.

Exceptions can be made with the approval of the coach for the sport the athlete is quitting.

The likelihood of a basketball player quitting at my school to concentrate on football (or baseball for that matter) are slim. Our football coach is not going to be happy about it. And it's that way with all of our "main" sports. Our coaches work together so well that this kind of thing isn't real likely to happen. And if it does, it would be with the full blessing of the coaches involved.

quote:

cplz quote:
You think the coach should be able to hold a student/player hostage? This basically gives the coach free reign to do whatever he wants and you don't have the right to walk away

Sounds so NCAA'ish doesn't it?

I guess it goes to show the nut doesn't fall far from the tree.

Or.....

The other side of the coin is that the administrative side of sports regardless of the level is in agreement where coaches coach and administrators runs things and develops policy/rules. The same Indian and Chief mentality that occurs in your job, government, big business.....and at my house .

Read the signature I attach to my posts attributed to Philosopher Edmund Burke.

Applies here as well as to about everything in politics and much of life.

Everyone with any decency or common sense know that some coaches are idiots. Yet decent people refuse to say anything because of many reasons and justifications.

A common one is they are afraid that a fool or two will intimidate them. (Not unlike happens on this thread)

Often the justification is that my son will be done with the bafoon at the end of the season.

The point is that if someone would have had the balls to confront the bafoon the year before, your son and others may not have had to suffer.

Often time others will join you in confronting bafoons if one person has the balls to organize them.

So good luck to all, do the right thing and confront evil.

I believe high school sports have got out of hand since I was in high school. Only football coaches cared what players did in the summer. They wanted them lifting. Baseball players typically played baseball in the summer. Basketball players typically played in a summer league. If an athlete played baseball and basketball, he usually played summer baseball since summer baseball is what we grew up on.

Now every sport's coach expects the player to be married to their sport for the entire year including "optional" offseason workouts and summer ball. We're talking about extra curricular activities here.

quote:
Originally posted by sluggo:

As an aside, in our school district, if you quit a HS sport in mid season, you are not allowed to play another sport that year. I think it is a good rule.

----------------
At our school, players who quit mid-season can not play another sport until the season is over. For example, a basketball player who quits in Dec. can't play baseball until basketball season is over. I thought it was a UIL rule rather than a district rule.

quote:

Originally posted by SBK:
Read the signature I attach to my posts attributed to Philosopher Edmund Burke.

Applies here as well as to about everything in politics and much of life.

Everyone with any decency or common sense know that some people are idiots. Yet decent people refuse to say anything because of many reasons and justifications.

A common one is they are afraid that a fool or two will intimidate them. (Not unlike happens on this thread)

Often the justification is that my son will be done with the bafoon at the end of the season.

The point is that if someone would have had the balls to confront the bafoon the year before, your son and others may not have had to suffer.

Often time others will join you in confronting bafoons if one person has the balls to organize them.

So good luck to all, do the right thing and confront evil.

There.. fixed it.

This type of thing happens at every level of sports and in life on each day of the year. The older that I get the more I understand that very few people tell you the whole truth but only the part that they feel you want to hear. No one wants to tell the bad news so they avoid any type of face to face conflict. A perfect example of this is when teams make the cuts. Should the coach place the cut list on a website or should he take the time to inform each individual player?

quote:

Originally posted by cbg:
This type of thing happens at every level of sports and in life on each day of the year. The older that I get the more I understand that very few people tell you the whole truth but only the part that they feel you want to hear. No one wants to tell the bad news so they avoid any type of face to face conflict. A perfect example of this is when teams make the cuts. Should the coach place the cut list on a website or should he take the time to inform each individual player?

I absolutely hate doing this. It kills me to look a kid in the face and tell him his dream is over for at least a year. I hate it but I do it because it is the right thing to do. They put everything on the line for me and I should have the decency to look them in the eye and thank them and tell them what they need to improve on. I have been doing it for 9 years and it's just as hard (maybe even harder because I know more of these kids on a personal level) as it was the first year. I hate it.

quote:

Our school has a policy that if you quit a sport, you can't join another one until the season from the original sport is over.

So say a basketball player quits so he can concentrate on football. Technically he cannot be in the weight room with the football team until basketball season is over.

Exceptions can be made with the approval of the coach for the sport the athlete is quitting.

This is the way it should be done although our school has no policy whatsoever. We could have a kid quit something and start another sport the very next day - not saying it's right or wrong but the way it is.

To keep them out the rest of the year is pretty crazy and punishes some kids more severly than others. Think about it like this - you have a kid who quits football. Now he has to sit out around 7 - 9 months. A kid quits basketball he has to sit out 4 - 5 months. A kid quits baseball he has to sit out a month or two. That's not real fair to me.

Hold them out until the season they quit is over. You still send a message that quitting isn't good and they still can participate in another sport.