Curious on opinions of coach's decision

quote:

Originally posted by Bulldog 19:

quote:

Originally posted by SBK:
Read the signature I attach to my posts attributed to Philosopher Edmund Burke.

Applies here as well as to about everything in politics and much of life.

Everyone with any decency or common sense know that some people are idiots. Yet decent people refuse to say anything because of many reasons and justifications.

A common one is they are afraid that a fool or two will intimidate them. (Not unlike happens on this thread)

Often the justification is that my son will be done with the bafoon at the end of the season.

The point is that if someone would have had the balls to confront the bafoon the year before, your son and others may not have had to suffer.

Often time others will join you in confronting bafoons if one person has the balls to organize them.

So good luck to all, do the right thing and confront evil.

There.. fixed it.

I like this version better - thanks Bulldog19.

SBK I won't say I disagree with this assessment because bad coaches need to get out. My problem is who says he is a bad coach or what proves he's a bad coach? It's not a clear cut answer all the time. According to you the group needs to get together to force a change - I agree.

Looking at it from my point of view - I have won just as many district titles in 9 years as the school has in 40 some years, I have put 9 guys on college rosters which is more than all the other sports combined, I get around 40 some kids to come out for baseall every year while I cut about 5 - 7 but football struggles to get 30 out and my guys win tough games - beat 4 teams in the top 25 including the number 3 team in the state. I have a lot of former players stay in touch with me to this day. I think I am a pretty good and successful coach.

At one point in my career the parents were going to the board of education and principal wanting me fired. They were doing what you said to do - get organized and make a change. In my opinion they were wrong and I was lucky the administration backed me but how many coaches do not have that luxury of good administration?

I'm not saying your wrong but the group mentality when done wrong becomes the "mob" mentality and that is just not right.

RJM,

It's hard to take sides in an argument when we don't get to hear the coach's side.

But assuming he would say exactly what you say, my take on it is this:

Coach has previously demonstrated to your satisfaction that he is a major jerk -- abusive, controlling, etc.

Player is aware enough of team rule to ask a question about it.

Field trip is apparently optional, or else there would have been no question to ask.

In the end, Player learns that Coach is still the same, abusive jerk that made him run suicides the week before.

The moral of the story is, you knew if you gave this guy a chance he would screw you over. And then you gave him the chance. (Anyone else know the fable about the woodsman and the snake?)

Was the Coach right? Of course not. But your son still has to learn how to manage his relationships with these types of personalities, because they are all too prevalent in sports.

Meaning, next time, don't give him the opportunity to pull his schtick at your expense.

quote:

Originally posted by coach2709:

quote:

The coach told him if he quit he would not play another sport for the rest of the school year. The kid who is pretty athletic was kept on the bench the entire season. The basketball coach asked him to play again this year. His answer of course was no. My son heard a similar story about the s****r coaches so he passed on s****r even though he was offered a varsity spot.

How can the coach of one sport keep a kid from playing another sport in that school year? I don't advocate a kid quitting a sport to concentrate on baseball but if they do quit I will welcome them with open arms.

It's a school rule. You start with a team, you have to finish the season; the penalty being you become ineligible for the rest of the school year if you don't finish. However in this case the kid didn't want to play to begin with and was talked into it. His mom felt he was tricked.

My son played football and was being pressured to play s****r. Coaches are not supposed to penalize multi-sport athletes that misses tryouts or start late because of another sport, but that is not what happens.

quote:

Originally posted by coach2709:

quote:

Originally posted by cbg:
This type of thing happens at every level of sports and in life on each day of the year. The older that I get the more I understand that very few people tell you the whole truth but only the part that they feel you want to hear. No one wants to tell the bad news so they avoid any type of face to face conflict. A perfect example of this is when teams make the cuts. Should the coach place the cut list on a website or should he take the time to inform each individual player?

I absolutely hate doing this. It kills me to look a kid in the face and tell him his dream is over for at least a year. I hate it but I do it because it is the right thing to do. They put everything on the line for me and I should have the decency to look them in the eye and thank them and tell them what they need to improve on. I have been doing it for 9 years and it's just as hard (maybe even harder because I know more of these kids on a personal level) as it was the first year. I hate it.

Every coach I know considers this one of the worst parts of their jobs. I just thought I would share how I have handled it after many long moons.

I gather the group and give them the Michael Jordan speech about how I have one thing in common with MJ and that's that we were both cut from frosh basketball and that we didn't let that stop us.

After the speech, I have the whole team line up on my left side facing me. I start calling out names from the list and if your name is called, you move and line up on my right side facing me. Sometimes I call out the cut list, sometimes the keep list, I'v never really settled on the better of the two. After I've called all the names, I tell them which group is staying and ask all the players to shake each others hands and thank them for the opportunity to play against them.

It sounds corny, but no matter what level I've done it at, the kids who get kept seem to get some humility from it. I can't say what happens to the kids who get cut, but I do know that I can stop and talk to them in a store or at school and they seem good.

Anyway, just my way, thought I'd share.

That rule that you all speak about, makes sense to me.
Can you imagine if the rule didn't exist, players would be quitting left and right, possibly leaving no one on the team.

This prevents that from happening, correct?

rjm

i may be off base here. i don't know how big your school is but we have about 1100 kids. when i was there a million years ago wwe had 2500. freshman sports really didn't mean to much then or now. it's a chance to keep kids in the program to develop maybe into a varsity player. and give as many kids the experience of playing for their school. parents usually get upset over playing time in the freshman ranks ,untill they learn the parent rule. sadly some never learn it.
as rz said take a step back and look at this.in the big picture it doesn't warrant a second look. but you and your son haven't finished painting the big picture yet. and as you do you'll see my point.
as you have said many times you coach many sports. is there a chance one of your players parents may have issues with your coaching style or philosophy? what if they did? and what would you say to them? i'm not not sticking up for the coach just trying to open the circle.
i'm very surprised at the kind responces you've gotten. a few years ago here you would have been roasted as a disgruntled parent or a daddy ball kind of guy. one thing i would say. if you don't like a coach or an official. don't talk about them in front of your son. kids are like sponges ,and they should make up their own mind about people. based on how they persive them not how you feel about them. a lesson i learned many years ago. kids are usually better judges than we are.

quote:

Originally posted by 20dad:

i'm very surprised at the kind responces you've gotten. a few years ago here you would have been roasted as a disgruntled parent or a daddy ball kind of guy. one thing i would say. if you don't like a coach or an official. don't talk about them in front of your son. kids are like sponges ,and they should make up their own mind about people. based on how they persive them not how you feel about them. a lesson i learned many years ago. kids are usually better judges than we are.

I would not have said a word to my son about it. If he brought it up to me I would have just said "I dont care what the coach said. He made the decision to not start you guys and he played some other guys. You did miss practice and the other guys did practice. Did you have a fun time on the trip? Great, then forget about it and just move on."

Your son will form whatever opinion he wants to form about this situation. He will deal with it in his own way. I have never said one negative thing about one of my sons teachers , coaches etc in their presence in my life and I dont ever intend to. My opinion about them is my opinion. I think its important to show respect to the posistion and let them deal with the situation as they see fit with my input when asked.

Heck its one basketball game. Learn from the situation and let it go. There is no need to make a negative impression on your son by acting like its some kind of conspiracy against them. If the coach is a jerk so what? He is still the coach. Let him deal with it. He is in hs now.

quote:

Your son will form whatever opinion he wants to form about this situation. He will deal with it in his own way.

This I believe is what is so hard for Parent's to except the fact that it's there players problem that they have to deal with on there own.
It's called being responsible for one's decisions that you make in life.
You can help the player most by helping him to understand that there is consiquences to one's actions.
EH

quote:

Originally posted by Coach May:
I would not have said a word to my son about it. If he brought it up to me I would have just said "I dont care what the coach said. He made the decision to not start you guys and he played some other guys. You did miss practice and the other guys did practice. Did you have a fun time on the trip? Great, then forget about it and just move on."

Your son will form whatever opinion he wants to form about this situation. He will deal with it in his own way. I have never said one negative thing about one of my sons teachers , coaches etc in their presence in my life and I dont ever intend to. My opinion about them is my opinion. I think its important to show respect to the posistion and let them deal with the situation as they see fit with my input when asked.

Heck its one basketball game. Learn from the situation and let it go. There is no need to make a negative impression on your son by acting like its some kind of conspiracy against them. If the coach is a jerk so what? He is still the coach. Let him deal with it. He is in hs now.

We never, ever said one negative word to our son about anyone he played for. We kept our opinions to ourselves. He could form his own and needed to learn how to deal with it, because that's life. It won't be teh first time this will happen.

I am really amazed at the number of posts lately regarding parents who don't like their sons coaches, their style and speak openly to their sons about their feelings. This sets a bad attitude among their players.

I am not always sure it's always about the coaches being the bad guys or jerks, but parents who just can't let go. I would imagine that these are the type of parents who will always find something wrong with any coach as their son/daughter grows up, JV, varsity, college, any sport and beyond.

If I have offended anyone I am sorry, maybe I am just a bit old fashioned.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
That rule that you all speak about, makes sense to me.
Can you imagine if the rule didn't exist, players would be quitting left and right, possibly leaving no one on the team.

This prevents that from happening, correct?

The thing is he was talked into it by the coach. He learned his lesson and the coach couldn't talk him into it this year. My son also learned by observation that he was right to pass on the Varsity s****r offer.

quote:

Originally posted by Coach May:
I have never said one negative thing about one of my sons teachers , coaches etc in their presence in my life and I dont ever intend to. My opinion about them is my opinion. I think its important to show respect to the posistion and let them deal with the situation as they see fit with my input when asked.

A different perspective.

In the privacy of our home, I do share my opinions with my kids at times about third parties, whether they be teachers, cops, elected officials, or the gas station attendant. If a wrong has been committed, then it's important for them to learn from it, but before they can learn, they have to recognize and identify it. By being quiet about it, there is no confirmation of the wrong, and therefore the silence can send mixed signals.

From some people we learn what to be, and others, what not to be. Some things we learn to take a stand about, and some we learn to deal with in silence.

Respect should never be automatic. It should be granted, and even expected, but not without reserve to withdraw it, regardless of ones title in life.

CPLZ,
I agree. I'll add that when someone who has a significant presence in my kids' lives and has integrity, or a good approach to situations, or simply good personal style, I try to point that out also. I'd like them to emulate (to a degree) the good folks, and to learn from others to avoid certain behaviors.

quote:

Originally posted by Midlo Dad:
RJM,

It's hard to take sides in an argument when we don't get to hear the coach's side.

But assuming he would say exactly what you say, my take on it is this:

Coach has previously demonstrated to your satisfaction that he is a major jerk -- abusive, controlling, etc.

Player is aware enough of team rule to ask a question about it.

Field trip is apparently optional, or else there would have been no question to ask.

In the end, Player learns that Coach is still the same, abusive jerk that made him run suicides the week before.

The moral of the story is, you knew if you gave this guy a chance he would screw you over. And then you gave him the chance. (Anyone else know the fable about the woodsman and the snake?)

Was the Coach right? Of course not. But your son still has to learn how to manage his relationships with these types of personalities, because they are all too prevalent in sports.

Meaning, next time, don't give him the opportunity to pull his schtick at your expense.

This is very good advice. Fortunately, barring any change in coaching staffs, any head or assistant coach he could have in any sport from this point forward he's either played travel or another sport for them, had them as a teacher or their a friend of the family. He understands their personalities and trusts their character.

quote:

Originally posted by 20dad:
rjm

i may be off base here. i don't know how big your school is but we have about 1100 kids. when i was there a million years ago wwe had 2500. freshman sports really didn't mean to much then or now. it's a chance to keep kids in the program to develop maybe into a varsity player. and give as many kids the experience of playing for their school. parents usually get upset over playing time in the freshman ranks ,untill they learn the parent rule. sadly some never learn it.
as rz said take a step back and look at this.in the big picture it doesn't warrant a second look. but you and your son haven't finished painting the big picture yet. and as you do you'll see my point.
as you have said many times you coach many sports. is there a chance one of your players parents may have issues with your coaching style or philosophy? what if they did? and what would you say to them? i'm not not sticking up for the coach just trying to open the circle.
i'm very surprised at the kind responces you've gotten. a few years ago here you would have been roasted as a disgruntled parent or a daddy ball kind of guy. one thing i would say. if you don't like a coach or an official. don't talk about them in front of your son. kids are like sponges ,and they should make up their own mind about people. based on how they persive them not how you feel about them. a lesson i learned many years ago. kids are usually better judges than we are.

The issue was this was the game the varsity coach came to watch to assess players. Almost every basketball player who comes through the program starts at the freshman level. Sophs almost always play JV. It's a large classification school.

I heard my son out. I understood why he was ticked based on how the coach has acted all season. The kids don't respect him. They only respect his title and authority. I told my son the varsity coach knows his ability from the times he saw him scrimmage against the JV team and two weeks of summer camp and shouldn't worry about it.

To me, it was just another jerking off of players by a coach who jerked players around all season. Most of the parents feel the players are pawns and the coach thinks it's all about him. Someone mentioned the parents should assemble and complain for the benefit of future players. I figure since the AD is present at some of the games, if he isn't questioning the sideline behavior, nothing is going to change regardless of who speaks up.

But like I posted, I was more interested in other's views of coaching saying something is not an issue and then benching the players. I know my son won't be affected by the event.

quote:

There is no need to make a negative impression on your son by acting like its some kind of conspiracy against them.

The players formed their impression long ago. I told my kids when they were young never let a difficult (won't call them bad to my kids) coach distract you from what you want to accomplish. And never let a coach drive you from a game (whichever sport) you love. I've told them they're not going to like plenty of people in their life they're going to have to deal with so take dealing with a difficult coach as a life lesson.

TPM, let me give you some food for thought on a different approach.

If your son comes to you complaining of this or that coaching decision, I think you can hear him out and talk him through it.

I think you owe the coach every benefit of the doubt, because as a parent you don't see the whole team picture the way a coach has to. And so I think it is wise to enter into criticism of the coaches only rarely and with great reluctance. When it comes to roster decisions, playing time allocation, game strategies, etc., second guessing may be a fan's prerogative but it is better for a parent to keep it zipped to avoid undermining someone who deserves his support.

But it is a fact of life that in any field, there are some folks who are problem causers. And that goes for coaching, too.

Whitewashing those folks' misbehavior is not, IMHO, a parent's proper role. If a HS coach were behaving like Bobby Knight -- uncontrollable tirades, profanity, choking players, throwing chairs, etc. -- it would be a dereliction of duty to sit idly by and do nothing.

Teaching your son that misbehavior is misbehavior is entirely appropriate. I would certainly not want my son to leave that situation with the impression that I approved of or encouraged that kind of behavior, or that it would be acceptable for him to grow up to behave like that.

And teaching your son how best to deal with life's difficult situations is also a parent's role.

If it were violent, profane or abusive behavior, the appropriate course would be for those who observed the misconduct to seek the coach's dismissal.

If it's the kind of situation we're talking about above, it's just a matter of coping until the relationship comes to an end. Sometimes you just have to suck it up in order to avoid doing damage to your own best interests long term.

By your example, your son learns these things, and learns also the judgment to tell which situation is which.

Those same skills will be important in all of his personal and professional relationships the rest of his life.

Midlo Dad,
If you go back to read, I said that we kept our NEGATIVE opinions to ourselves. That would include, the coach is a jerk, he's stupid, he knows nothing, he is a liar, he burned you, he's not coaching you the right way, etc. The only time we got a little verbal was after a HS season start with 80-90 pitches. Then husband went back to coach, the reason, not enough pitching. That reason wasn't acceptable and the coach understood and made adjustments. No way was he coming that far and end up with his arm hanging on his way to college. No way did we ever say the coach was a jerk, or indicated to son he was a bad coach for what he did, he just made a bad decision at that time. There have been many times we didn't agree with some coachs, unless son wanted to talk about it, we never said anything. Then when he did, he just talked and we listened. If he felt he was given a raw deal, that was for him to deal with, us ranting and raving about it to him only fuels the fire.

The bottom line is that everyone goes through this sort of thing. As you go to level to level, you will find that not every coach fits YOUR description of the perfect coach, they make mistakes, they all have different philosophies.They run their teams differently. They don't HAVE to give explanations as to why they make decisions. The sooner one lets their son figure this out for themselves the more successful he will be. If this was an issue, why not go back to the coach (the player) and speak to the coach if he was confused. In life it's learning to accept the good with the bad situations and moving on, not dwelling. This game is about adjusting, you better learn to do it. That's for players and parents. JMO.

I don't know about anyone else, but my son has done PLENTY of running, pole sprints in his time because a game was lost due to poor coaching decisions.

Abusive behavior is unacceptable, but not sure where this particular coach did that.

RJM seemed more upset because the varsity coach was there. That's what this was about. As someone said, maybe the varsity coach diod not have to see his son play.

Wait until the day comes when a scout of college coach comes to watch and the coach makes a decision to put someone else in.

tpm
son had a coach in jc that wouldn't tell the scouts when son was pitching. some called me about it,asking me to call the guy. if he won't tell you why would he tell me. we learn as we go. rjm will have much tougher skin as time goes on. we all have had our lessons.

quote:

Originally posted by 20dad:
tpm
son had a coach in jc that wouldn't tell the scouts when son was pitching. some called me about it,asking me to call the guy. if he won't tell you why would he tell me. we learn as we go. rjm will have much tougher skin as time goes on. we all have had our lessons.

Never happened to son as a pitcher but I hear it happens a lot to many. I know of one instance back in HS travel where a parent told a coach that a coach was coming to watch son play and he HAD to put him in. The coach didn't like being told what to do and told parents that the coach has his number and needs to contact him. The parents were livid, in a way, I see both sides.

You are right though, parents will learn as they go.

Another coach story-Older son was chosen for the FACA HS All Star game in Sebring-2004. We get a phone call from a scout
on Wednesday night(opening banquet)wanting to know where our son was. We said for what? Said he's in the program and on the EAST squad????? Made a phone call to the coach at home and asked about it--he said "Oh, I sent you an e-mail this afternoon." He'd known about it for over a week but could not make a phone call. Missed the banquet but made the All-Star
games. If the scout doesn't call we'd never have known--until afterward.



As far as RJM is concerned-I really don't think he's losing sleep over his son's coach I think he just threw this out
for discussion. And it's bringing up some interesting viewpoints.

My point is, I don't think all negative thoughts a parent might have should be kept from the player/son.

The run-of-the-mill stuff, yes, keep it zipped.

But serious stuff should be discussed. A 16 or 17 year old can still benefit from your experience in dealing with difficult adults, some of whom are just bullies grown old. Silence can lead to your son drawing the wrong conclusions -- do you not care? Is he in this alone? Do you actually support what this guy is doing?

And if your son brings up a gripe that you think is NOT in the "serious" category, then you can tell him so, end of conversation. Because he also needs to learn what is and is not a big deal.

quote:

rjm will have much tougher skin as time goes on. we all have had our lessons.

I've been through it with the oldest who was recruited for softball and track (also played basketball and volleyball). She had a tough softball coach. The coach had her tirades despite four consecutive conference titles. But, the coach was honest with the players. At their end of season party the seniors all hugged her and cried. I don't think the kids on my son's basketball team trust the coach or would cross the street to *** on him if he was on fire. There are some parents willing to put out the fire with a stick. But it's all part of the growing up process.

As TPM noted I thought it was BS to bench these kids given the varsity coach was there to watch them. It was intentional. It was deceptive based on the permission. It was just another in a series of situations were he was less than honest with his players. But life goes on. Posting the situation put up a good debate.

RJM

If you son was not one of the players with miniumum time would you have begun this post as you did?

Be honest

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
RJM

If you son was not one of the players with miniumum time would you have begun this post as you did?

Be honest

I coach several of these kids on a travel team (non varsity athletes can play travel basketball simultaneously). Athletically I feel the same about any kid I coach as I do about my own. I had already formed my opinion on this coach based on the way he's jerked around several kids on the team. I've been on the listening end of complaints all season from players and parents. My only response has been it's something to live through, isn't earth shattering and remind them they're getting the playing time they've earned on my team.

I don't talk to the coach other than to say hello. It's the way I've always been with my kid's coaches (one already graduated) unless they approach me. I've heard he's uncomfortable with me coaching his players, which means he's been talking. I've never publicly second guessed anything he's done (until this thread).

RJM

Thanx for what appears to a very honest answer

I will try to make my point a litte better this time. I do not enter into negative discussions about my kids teachers , coaches etc. If they approach me about a problem I talk to them. I offer them advice. Kids are very smart. They know a clown when they see one. When they are in a situation they are not comfortable with they will come to you and talk. Im just not going to sit there and feed excuses or put down figures of authority. Im just one of those people that believes nothing good ever comes from talking negatively about another person. Discuss it with them , give them some advice and then let them learn how to deal with it.

If the situation is one where you feel their safety is in danger or their is real abuse then you do what you have to do. But I want my kids to learn how to handle their business without me stepping in everytime they have a problem. They understand that just because you have a title you are not perfect. They understand that everyone is human and makes mistakes. And they understand that there can be some funny business going on that is not always fair. I just dont see the need to constantly put out their fires. They need to learn how to do some of that on their own.

quote:

Im just one of those people that believes nothing good ever comes from talking negatively about another person.

Coach May,

If you have ever had any thoughts about joining the "dark side", go down to the OHIO forum and enter the discussion about American Idol. It sure does eliminate a lot of built up frustration, blasting those kids instead of baseball players!

PG I may just show up there tonight and stir them up a little! I checked in on the Texas boys one night and they were having their way with some folks. I realized very quickly they were not to be messed with. I may have to see how they stack up against the Ohio guys!

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:
...I thought it was BS to bench these kids given the varsity coach was there to watch them.

No argument here.

I was wondering what impression the kids' demeanor made on the varsity coach as they waited and waited for a chance to get in the game. I'm guessing that a coach who is scouting starters might also observe them on the bench.

quote:

Originally posted by infidel_08:
I was wondering what impression the kids' demeanor made on the varsity coach as they waited and waited for a chance to get in the game. I'm guessing that a coach who is scouting starters might also observe them on the bench.

That's a good point under normal circumstances. My son has bought into the "you never know who's watching" philosophy of behavior. However, from a character standpoint the varsity coach has known my son since he was three years old.

got the error on page and couldn't edit so I'll add:

He's had both kids as students.