curve balls

IMO wait until HS to start thowing a breaking ball... Keep working hard on the changeup and fastball. There is plenty of time to learn the curve or slider.

-good luck

Hi,

Our son is an 8th grader in Iowa this year and we faced some of the same questions.

We looked at the freshman roster from last year and they carried 20 kids, 5 of which were 8th graders. The schedule for the freshman team was about 20 games mostly doubleheaders during the mornings.
Odds are an 8th grade pitcher isn't going to see a lot of the innings on the mound.

I ended up talking to the varsity asistant coach to find out how they handle 8th graders that also want to play travel ball during the same time period.

Our school, wants the 8th and 9th graders to play as much baseball as possible, so they are ok with playing travel ball and school ball. Here is the catch: 8th grade pitchers pitch for their travel team not the freshman squad. 9th graders pitch for the freshman team not their travel team. Of course once your in 10th grade you play exclusively for the sophomore or varsity squad.

In regards to the curve, son is learning the pitch from his pitching coach this winter. At this point it is strictly instructional. The emphasis during his travel season is 2, 4 seam FB, CU and he does throw a nasty knuckle curve. We know that this summer will probably be it for the knuckle curve. Hopefully by the time he is a freshman,
he may be able to throw a very limited number of curves.

You may want to talk to a coach in the high school program and see what they suggest. I felt really stupid when I called, but, it was the best thing I could have done. The coach was very nice and explained their policy.

Hope this helps.

Thanks for the input Baseball Mom.

I am sure that a limited amount of 8th graders make the freshman team. I think that is kind of weird that they allow 8th graders on the H.S. team anyway. I wonder how many other states do it that way.

I guess right now I was thinking about travel ball and how many kids my son's age already throw the curve and have been doing it for some time now. Will my son be at a disadvantage without the experience under his belt? How long does it take to learn to throw the curve well enough to use it in a game?

Also, I would like to hear from anyone.... have you known of a youth pitcher that threw the curve early on and had arm/shoulder problems?

Iowabbmom: Sounds like you have a very wise pitching coach. He should keep working on his FB and CU. There is no need for him to throw a curve at this time. He should really focus on his mechanics and building up his arm strength. Unless he is a lefty there is only one pitch that will make a difference in HS, and that is a good FB. Be obsessed with it for right now. Long toss and keep working on his mechanics. Learn how to get good movement on it, throw it to spots and work on his change.

BTW my son is a Soph who did not learn a curve until he was a freshmen. He was the number one pitcher below Varsity last year because of one pitch…his FB. He will be a starter this year on Varsity because of the same pitch. BTW he now throws a very good CB that was learned last year.

Good Luck!

PS: There is nothing wrong with learning how to properly throw a curve at a younger age, the problem is the "properly" and the other is that young kids get enamored with it because it is difficult for younger kids to hit it. Because of their early success they loose focus of developing a good FB and once he gets to HS this is the pitch that means the most.

I guess I take another perspective. I believe that pitching injury isn't a function of throwing the forbidden pitch. I believe it stems from over-use and improper rest. I think the curve being made the bug-a-boo is also just plain silly. If it was so wrong why do you see LL continue to allow it's unlimited usage? LL is perhaps as liability concious as any organization of earth, if there was any "real" evidence that is was harmful do you think the legal branch would allow the continued barrage you see 12yr old pitchers do every year in the LLWS?
Not that BOF is wrong in his assessment, I think fundementals and control are the key factors at a young age. To be in fear of a pitch that has been around and effective since what the 1880's is hysterical. Teach him how to throw it (You do it or little Tommy down the block might just show him the wrong way), let him learn about arm health and maintenance, about rest and recuperation, about how to be responsible to your body. We act afraid of stuff like this and then turn around and let a kid play upwards of a hundred games a year, pitch back to back in weekend tourneys..this is what fry's a little kids arm, not the judicious throwing of a curve from time to time..And if the kid is so enamoured he throws it too much..get him on a squad that has a coach with enough sense to call the pitches in an intelligent and more logical way. You won't see his HS coach calling curve after curve, he'll use it to set up or wipe out and he'll love the fact that your kid has a change to also work with.
Just another perspective to consider..My son who is a college freshman on a full scholarship, has thrown a curve since he was 12, he has never had an arm injury.

Dr Andrews the ASMI could not find a link to CBs and arm injuries. So the most renowned sports specialist in America says overuse is the main culprit based on their extensive studies.
The fear that parents and many coaches have about CBs is based on a lack of knowledge.
My son is 22yo old and has lived off CBs since he was 10-11yo. Naiver had an arm injury and even would be considered over used most of his BB career.

Two biggest reasons not to throw a curve ball until the age of 14 or so- It's more important to develop a good fastball. Curve balls don't hurt arms- throwing it improperly does.

By the way, the biggest abusers of breaking balls are travel, high school and college coaches who call pitches. They are so wrapped up into not wanting to get hit that they get defensive in how they call pitches. They go to the path of least resistance and call breaking balls.

A local HS coach had a pitcher who had a large scholarship to a prominent program in southern California. This guy had an 87-89 mph fastball. the kid had a great slurve that was unhittable. Guess what- so was his fastball at that level. The coach called about 60% breaking balls because he was more interested in winning than developing. The results were that the kid got on campus but was damaged goods. He never got to pitch in college.

NC that is total garbage.
Throwing a CB is actually easier on the arm than a FB. All the 85+ mph guys at 14-15 yo who I know and only thew FBs are no longer pitching or are pitching after 1 or more arm surgeries by Dr Andrews.
I could tell stories like yours for hours of guys who are finished pitching because of high velo FBs. One teammate of my son's 17U team was a Mexican who topped out at 87-88 mph on flat ground. He spent half his career injured. Had MLB guys after him and got a scholarship but never pitched in college because he was always injured. A friend DT who was a 4 year closer at UALR was 85-86 as a 15yo and was RS at UALR 2 of the 4 years at that college. Adam Loewen a 7 million dollar MB deal with a 94 mph FB no longer pitching. He was a FB pitcher.
Fortunately we got great advice when my son started pitching and he had coaches that were informed. His one coach used to call CBs 90% of the time. He never had any pitchers with arm problems. My son said it was far easier on his arm than a FB.
Why do people think you can't develop a FB if you throw CBs ?

BHD- Did I say curve ball? I said slurve! He got around the ball and tweaked the elbow very much like Kerry Wood.

Secondly, all you reference is your son! That's all you talk about! You call a coach informed if he called 90% breaking balls? Are you kidding? Your whole perspective is from your son. You are extremely limited in your reference- period. I love your Adam Loewen reference! He got 7 Million! Gee, if he did what your son did, he would probably still be in Canada thumbing it up there in the mid-80's. What a mistake he made by becoming a fastball pitcher! LOL! Guys get hurt- period. It had NOTHING to do with him being a fastball pitcher! Do you realize how stupid that sounds? Hopefully Loewen makes it as a hitter like Ankiel.

Keep doing what you are doing. Keep posting what you are posting. I'm no longer going to respond to a guy who knows very little but, because he posts here way too much, thinks he knows something. You really need to broaden your horizons because you truly don't realize how off-base you are and how little you know about pitching.

No my comments were about what I have observed watching all levels of BB. I could go on about other guys as well but my son is a prime example of a kid who threw CBs all his career. That is more than one type of CB.
I just mentioned a few I have know out of hundreds of pitchers I know. Obviously I only knew most of them for 5-6 years.

Nc-

What type of build does/did your son have at age 13? My kid is just a bean pole, and I think he will be for awhile.

The first pitching coach he had (age 10) said he more so looks at the build of the kid and not the age when teaching the CB.

Don't worry about the breaking balls, concentrate on the FB and change up. Regardless of the argument whether it causes injuries, young pitchers need to learn to rely on their FB and work on location above all of their other pitches, no matter what their velocity is.
My take is that most young pitchers who have success with breaking balls tend not to use their FB due to fear of getting hit. JD is correct, they become so infatuated with it, they use it too much. I could have seen this happening to my son when he was younger, instead he was "forced" to rely on his FB and change up and not actually relying on the actual CB or slider until college. Finding a coach that allows a young pitcher the opportunity to learn to use all of his pitches is a good coach, IMO.
I haven't seen one college or milb pitcher who ever relied soley game after game on breaking balls, the whole idea is to keep them off balance using a variety of your arsenal. Yes, I have seen many coaches call breaking ball after breaking ball, but eventually the better hitters adjust.

So if you have a kid who throws more than one CB for pin poinjt accuracy, you don't rely on his off speed pitches. His FB is average compared to others. To me that is not smart. That kid may not even be competetive with a average FB and CU. Doesn't make sense to me. It especially makes no sense since all the things I have learned sho0wed CBs are not the cause of arm injuries and now vindicated by ASMI studies.
People assume wrongly that a CB pitcher doesn't work on FB velocity7 That is not correct. It is not either or like in the case of a KB.

I am leaning toward the side of throwing curve ball is not what causes injury, but throwing a curve ball improperly is what causes injury. Could someone please give a short description of how to properly throw a curve ball and what is done wrong in an inproperly thrown curve ball? Thanks.

quote:

Originally posted by iowabbmom:
Nc-

What type of build does/did your son have at age 13? My kid is just a bean pole, and I think he will be for awhile.

The first pitching coach he had (age 10) said he more so looks at the build of the kid and not the age when teaching the CB.

Iowabbmom- As I mentioned in an earlier post, a curve ball doesn't hurt your arm. Throwing it improperly does. The problem is when a pitcher gets outside the ball and tweaks his elbow. I think your coach makes some sense in looking at physical maturity as opposed to age.

The bottom line in this is development- not having success at a young age. EVERYTHING WORKS OFF THE FASTBALL- PERIOD. It should be thrown 60%-70% of the time in youth baseball. By the way, it's thrown that much in professional baseball. The best pitch in baseball is a well-placed fastball. Learning to throw a good change with fastball arm speed takes time but is a great pitch. A quality breaking ball would be the third pitch I would teach after developing the first two.

Gimages you should get proper instruction from a guy who knows how to throw one. We stayed away from the one that requires a tomahawk wrist action which I refer to as a ML CB. That one we learned at 15 yo.
In all cases at a Young age the coach calls the pitches and often they still think CBs are harmful. The CB my son used as a 10yo was a slip Curve where the fingers were involved more than the wrist. It created a beautiful smooth delivery and no sudden shock to the elbow. He varied the grip slightly to vary the break movement. He also used a modified CU with a late break. The batters didn't know what was coming and he mixed in an occasional FB. I looked for a video of him pitching but nothing at a young age . The youngest was at 16 against some college and ex pros in the intercounty league here.
I do think you should get pro help.

BHD

Thanks. Son is a Senior in HS and just last year started throwing what he calls a knuckle curve ball. Self taught.He throws it about 20% of the time. Must admit it is fun to see him throw it.

I love watching a hard thrower and a soft tosser with talent. My son is in his SR year at college and is up to 85-86mph. The scouts want him at 87-88.
The problem with learning CBs at a later age is getting a feel for them. Some just have great feel and others will struggle. It can make very good hitters look silly.

quote:

Iowabbmom- As I mentioned in an earlier post, a curve ball doesn't hurt your arm. Throwing it improperly does

This is why I adamantly believe a kid should be taught a curve..the truth is a kid will learn one, it's just who is going to teach it? If he picks it up from "some kid", it may just involve the injurious components that lead to injury (Hand outside the ball, twisting the entire arm etc.). I believe that it's an important thing for a parent to teach responsibility to a kid whose dreams include pursuing our art. If the kid never figures out what will and won't harm him..well he's wasting time and should learn how to shop for high quality health insurance. As a freshman and beyond, it is absolutely imperative that they learn about arm health and maintenance, as well as conditioning, without it they are asking for injury..CB,FB,CU slide piece whatever..Do you really think your son is so innocent and oblivious that he hasn't discussed it with friends? They see kids in the LLWS breaking off hooks at a high rate and no announcer really complaining...they are informed, they are aware and they do discuss it. Now my take is that pitching is a holistic endeavor..every aspect should be trained and used in an educated fashion.

There is nothing wrong with teaching it, better to learn it early from the right source than the wrong. But that doesn't mean you have to use it more than the FB. It's nice to have early success as a young LL pitcher who can get them out with the CB and make them look silly, but that doesn't teach much in the way of developing where you should when it counts the most later on in HS, college or the professional ranks.

Bobbleheaddad, you stated that those that learn it later might have trouble with it. Well I think that is the philosophy about learning to command the FB early and develop your velocity. I do beleive you stated yourself once that your son's velocity never got where it should because he relied more on his CB?

Throwing the curveball improperly AND throwing too many of them are what make the curveball dangerous. But if it is thrown properly and the numbers are limited to no more than about 20% of one's total pitch count, throwing curves should not cause any problems.

Focusing on the curveball at the expense of the development of other pitches is a definite concern. But, in my experience, it's not the development of the fastball that suffers. Rather, it is the development of the change-up that usually suffers. And the change-up is oneof the most difficult pitches to master, IMHO.

I do share the philosophy of teaching kids to throw the curve properly at a young age because they often learn to throw it improperly on their own while away from supervised settings. Being proactive about it also affords the opportunity to teach kids the importance of not only throwing it properly but also of limiting how many are thrown.

But lets get back to that "if" about throwing it properly. IMHO, it's one thing to teach it and another thing to verify your pitchers are, in fact, throwing it properly. Slo-mo video is about the only way since the transition of the throwing arm from external rotation to internal rotation - which is the part you need to see to verify proper technique - happens faster than the naked eye can see (well, at my naked eyes).

quote:

IMHO, it's one thing to teach it and another thing to verify your pitchers are, in fact, throwing it properly. Slo-mo video is about the only way since the transition of the throwing arm from external rotation to internal rotation - which is the part you need to see to verify proper technique - happens faster than the naked eye can see (well, at my naked eyes).

Roger Tomas,
Instead of the slomo video, what about watching arm action and the end result (break of the pitch)? While I'm a far cry from being a pitching coach I did teach my son to properly throw the curve ball and he had some success using the CB as his out pitch without experiencing any arm problems.

quote:

Instead of the slomo video, what about watching arm action and the end result (break of the pitch)?

I agree with this (completely), but aren't you now in the video business?

Oh...sorry...not baseball videography.

I do think this is quite easy to see in 99% of the cases by watching arm action and results.

quote:

but aren't you now in the video business?

True I am in the video business but I forgot how to throw a curve ball --

I am going to give you 7 reasons to wait. There is only 1 reason to teach him now, he will get outs using it.

BHD is correct with the ASMI studies, they do not cause problems. Throwing them wrong does. (Reason number 1) Overuse is the primary culprit on arm injuries more on this later.

I disagree with JD because on teaching a curve early since it will hinder the development of the FB variations. (Reason 2) Pitchers need to learn how to be successful throwing only a FB (which should be thrown 60-70% of the time) A good change is one of the most difficult pitches to learn to throw well and it takes a long time to master. (Reason 3) Additionally if they start throwing a curve they will not develop the proper mental approach of trying to find bats while pitching. (at the pitchers location and speed) they simply won’t do it and will go to the curve for the K’s. (Reason 4) In this process they will focus on getting K’s instead of focusing on getting outs and keeping the team involved (Reason 5). In the process of getting K's he will drive up his pitch counts. Reason 6)

Once they develop good command of their FB’s and CU’s then move on to the curve. A curve is one of the easiest pitches to learn once you have mastered a good FB and CU. (Reason 7)

If you are interested in the short term success of your son go, ahead and teach him to throw one (by a knowledgeable instructor)/ He will be successful with it, but there is absolutely no question in my mind and most others who really know pitching that you will be hindering his long term development. Maybe only a little or maybe a lot but you will hinder him long term.

I have given you 7 reasons why to wait and I am sure BHD or JD and others will say their sons learned them early and have gone on to pitch well at higher levels, which may be true, but I think you should think it through and weigh the positives vs the negatives before you head down that road.

quote:

Originally posted by BOF:
Once they develop good command of their FB’s and CU’s then move on to the curve. A curve is one of the easiest pitches to learn once you have mastered a good FB and CU. (Reason 7)

Too often a curveball is used as a crutch and hinders the development of a good fastball and curveball.

Many kids don't develop their fastball and change, and just live on the curve, until it's too late.

And as BOF said, a curveball is relatively easy to develop.

Just ask Trevor Hoffman, who wasn't allowed to throw a curveball until college.

Iowabb, I do use my son as an example sometimes, he's done some amazing stuff and acheived at a very high level, his future is indeed very bright (Here is a chronical of his senior year to understand what I'm saying
http://letstalkpitching.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2943), unfortunately I can't claim his abilities come from my skill...I understood that his talents were beyond my talent when it became apparent he was more than just having fun. So the example was created by the catcher who caught Greg Maddux's first Cy Young and a D-1 pitching coach at the University of North Florida, I did teach him the curve.
What I am offering is 25 years and approximately 65 teams coached with every level except national as levels of success, I've spent about 180 hours studying pitching at the college level on the field and have closely studied the people who have taught my son over the last decade.
Now I'm sorry, I assumed that you were an engaged and intelligent person who has the confidence to be able to impart information and skills (If not by your hand..some other trained and considerate hand) to your kid and be able to expect responsible behavior on his part once that information or skill is imparted. If that isn't the case than I apologize, I've posted in error. If it is your intention to just let your dunderhead of a kid be taught how to do something that could prove possibly injurious and let go to have some egocentric coach use his new found skill until he's ruined..well my bad I should have minded my own business.
You won't give him a drag racer the day he's taught to drive will you?
Or give him a loaded AK-47 the day he first learns about guns?
Or call the rehab center when he's taught about steroids or other bad drugs?
I expect that, because you've posted and invited advice, that you care and want the best for your child. I'm talking from reality, I certainly don't want your son to get injured or hindered. What I simply wish to impart on you is that the curve ball is a pitch, it's been around for over a hundred years, it can be thrown successfully and responsibly as part of what makes an entire pitcher. I can give 10 examples of success at the major league level for every guy who doesn't use it as part of what he does. Now Bobble and I weren't the only folks on this thread that don't "Really" understand pitching, Roger Tomas (A National Pitching/Tom House trained instructor and TPM who has a boy who playes in the pro's) also noted that it could be taught in a responsible way..given that you as a parent will A) Get responsible behavior out of your son and B) Not allow over-use from an egocentric win happy coach.
I will tell you though that as your son gets older and his walk draws closer to the higher levels of talent, his risk of injury increases. This is why I made my impassioned suggestion that you have the kid taught as much about arm health and maintenance and conditioning as you possibly can. Any athletic endeavor can and does have injury associated to it, the more you stay engaged and the better training you get for him..either by increasing your skill or getting assistance from some more skillful or knowledgable person, the more you mitigate that injury risk.
I hope you now have a little bit better understanding of my suggestion.

TPM I have never said that relying on a CB stunted my son's development on the FB. I do say that relying on a CB doesn't mean you don't develop a FB. He also has great control of his FB usually like all pitchers. He had extraordinary ability to throw CBs against all levels of hitters including guys who played pro ball.
Young pitchers experiment with the CB. I see it all the time. Their teammate shows them how to throw it and they fool around with it. My son was no different but he had great instruction and the help of a high prospect who dated my daughter. He also had natural movement even on his 4 seam FB. I have seen a few occasions where he couldn't control his FB but that is very rare. There are also times when he has trouble controlling his best pitches. That is the nature of pitching.
I also tell pitcher to know their body. Shut it down when things feel funny and live to pitch another day. My son was probably slightly paranoid about injuring his arm. I actually thought that might have impeded his velocity. At 16 he was topping out at 83 and hasn't gained much velocity since then. He topped out at 85-86 this fall after adjusting his mechanics back to what they were. To me the most important things are keeping your elbo at shoulder level and good alignment. I also don't like locking the elbow out after relese as it causes elbow problems, Many hard throwers do this and get bone chips and other injuries.

I am pretty much on the same page as JD.
What do you think had 25 colleges interested in my son if we put his velo down as 82-83 ? What had scouts carding him over the years and a note sent to me by a SR Tampa scout saying he was one smart young pitcher. I think it might be his off speed pitches.
Yes MLB wants him in the high 80s which is only a couple mph more. He just might get there if he wants it and that with a healthy arm. He would not be the 1st guy to develop velocity late in his career.

Thanks to everyone for the advice/info.

Indoor BB pactice has just started up and my son has just started throwing again along with medicine ball workouts and tubing exercises. After he gets his arm back into enough shape for pitching, we will be returning to lessons. At that point, I will revisit with his pitching coach about the curve.

He really does have good mechanics and good control with his 2 and 4 seam FB, his CU is nice - good speed difference and it drops. He has been video taped by his coach and it confirmed that his mechanics were sound. He does need to work on his velocity some, I don't know if his body weight hinders that or not. IMO he's too skinny

The boy is quite intelligent, if I told him that I thought it was OK to learn and throw the CB, but his coach told him otherwise....he would listen to his coach. I honestly don't think, AT THIS TIME, peer presure would make any difference.

iowabbmom,
I guess that you might realize that when you come to a message board you will get a variety of opinions. Raising a young pitcher is like raising your child, we all have different philosophies on how to raise our children and some have the same for raising their pitchers.
FYI, my son was taught to throw the CB properly but did not use it until 15-16. This had a lot to do with my husband believing that he would have the ability to throw hard someday and that he should concentrate primarily on his FB, mechanics and location, location, location (inside as well as outside) and experimenting woth grips for various movement and spin. That worked for him. You do not have to be a master of every pitch, but IMO your FB should be your best.
If you trust your son's coach and your son's ability let him do what the coach feels he should do, he knows him better than anyone else here does.

I can tell you one thing, my son throws a 2seam FB (different variations), CU, slider and he will be the first one to tell you as a pitcher if your FB isn't working that day you might be SOOL. He can survive if the CB isn't breaking or the CU is not at the speed he wants, but he can't get by without his FB even without full velo that day. You also can't get further in the game if you do not trust your FB. JMO.

I can only speak from experience with my son (JUCO freshman pitcher) at a younger age with the curve ball. Take from it what you can and will.

He played against a 12yr old lefty stud and it was always a battle each game. My son was only allowed to throw a FB and a k-curve that he developed. The lefty threw a FB and nasty curve. Long story short. The lefty quit playing ball after his Senior season due to prolonged elbow problems. His father said the Doctor pointed to his son's growth plates not being fully developed at 12-14yrs of age and it affected how they eventually grew to maturation. Huge regret for both of them. However, their coach called the CB over 50% of the pitches. This may be an isolated case but it's real and should be considered. With that being said. My son didn't begin throwing a "properly taught" CB until 15. I just asked him if throwing the CB was easier on his arm than the FB and he said yes. So, I too am shocked at his reply. I would've thought the opposite.

Iowamom, the FB and K-curve are all your son needs at this young age. Stay away from the CB at this point. It's not worth risking any kind of arm/elbow problems just for the sake of being a stud early. Any kind of off-speed pitch, i.e. k-curve, at his age will buckle most kids knees. FYI, an off-speed pitch is thrown to induce a hit, not strike a batter out. An off-speed pitch usually is mis-hit by the batter and grounds out, thus, saving additional pitches on the pitchers arm! Strike outs look better but as he grows older he (and you) will appreciate the off-speed much, much more for the lack of wear and tear on his arm!

You're the mom. Coming here and asking the question shows you want what's best for your son. I applaud you for that!

Good luck!

Probably the most important advice, take care of the arm. If you want to pitch in high school and beyond, you need a healthy arm, and you surely need some velocity. The guys getting the most chances and the biggest signing bonuses are the guys with velocity. I don't think the curve is as hard on the arm as a fastball, but it can take too many healthy reps away from developing a great fastball.
For every guy that threw a curve and didn't make past high school, there's a hundred who tried pitching without a curve who never made it TOO high school. Unfortunately, genetics play a big part in velocity and arm problems.
I don't get out much, but I've seen way more high velocity guys with arm trouble than junk ball pitchers with arm problems. So I would say you are more likely to develop arm trouble as you work toward high velocity, but you're also giving yourself a better chance of pitching in the future. It's a chance we take. I read somewhere that the pitchers in the Majors with the best curve balls are the ones who learned it at an early age, but it didn't say the best pitchers, it only said the pitchers with the best curve balls.

I beleive that high velo pitchers have issues because they are used too frequently, but it is a known fact that high velo guys do have issues. You might say they same for those who use CB often as youngsters because they also, because of their success spend too much time on the mound when younger. I know plenty of kids that relied on the CB and never got past LL or HS.

My son is a high velo guy who never had an issue until recently, which has been minor in comparison to most young high velo pitchers his age. I attribute his general good health to taking care of his arm and not pitching year round for most of his life and good mechanics. I am not sure if not pitching CB at a young age had anything to do with staying healthy through his younger years. The important part was that he made it through LL, HS and college and hopefully will through proball. Most pitchers have bumps along the way, it's the nature of the beast. The best thing you can do as a parent is use your best judgement. Not throwing CB's at 13 will not stop a talented pitcher from reaching his fullest potential.