My son is 14 and a freshman. Been playing travel ball for 5+ years. He is 6'5", 145 and throwing 82mph. Question - he still does NOT throw a curveball (has a slider). Anyone else have a player who doesn't throw them or not much at this age?
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With that speed and size at that age, does he need a curve? No, not really.
I would say he would be better served learning a good change up that he can throw with the same arm speed as his fastball. I would be more inclined to not use the slider at all really. It's probably not worth the wear on the arm at his age. Bring it back in a couple of years when he has had a chance to put some muscle on his frame.
At 14 he probably doesn't need the slider. I agree with the last post, he should develop a change up. If he has a change a nice third pitch would be the knuckle curve. It is thrown similar to a fast ball and is a good and easy transition from the fastball/change.
Yep, has a great changeup already about 10 mph slower than fast ball, so good off speed there. I just get amazed over the years of how much curveballs I see kids throw at such young ages. He had a teammate that has already had elbow surgery due to curveball - at age 13! Crazy.
It's not the curveball itself that's the problem. It's that kids tend to snap their wrist to put more spin on it.
The curve is a grip pitch. Properly thrown, it doesn't require that the wrist turn at all.
The thought that curveballs are the culprit in youth pitching injuries has been somewhat dispelled. Evidence points more towards the amount of pitching a kid does - rather than the pitches thrown. It just so happens that many successful youth pitchers throw a curve - but it is more the fact that they are the pitchers most likely to be overused, than throwing the curve that leads to injury.
The slider is actually one of the more injurious pitches you can throw. The forced supination at release is very hard on the elbow. Generally, if a pitcher was holding a doorknob, any pitch that would cause him to turn the knob clockwise (for a righty) is bad for the elbow.
I agree with the above from Rob T.
At 14 he can begin to start working on a CB. Throw out the slider, it's worse on the elbow than any other pitch. There are those that will argue, but better be safe than sorry.
I am convinced that the slider wasn't good for son, who really began using it more after he was drafted from college and he had great mechanics.
As a general rule the advice I was given by pitching coaches, etc:
I call it the HSBBW Reader Digest to pitching.....
1. Develop a FB and CU prrior to HS.
2. In HS learn to develop a breaking pitch, curveball preferred.
3. You have to learn to be able to throw all three pitches for strikes in any count in HS...this takes time, the sooner you can do this the more success a pitcher will have.
4. Don't get too enamored with a curveball in HS as you will be able to get a lot of outs with it, but if you want to move on to college you need a good FB.
5. You can learn a Slider in college, but be careful as this pitch is easier to throw incorrectly and has a propensity to damage the arm.
6. In college you have to be able to throw all three pitches for strikes but you better be able to hit your spots on the corners as a pitch over the middle will get hammered. Oh and you can not telegraph any pitch, which you can get away with in HS....
7. Movement on the FB is as important as velocity at the higher levels. (however in most cases velocity is required for high levels of D1 ball )
8. Have a great workout regime and arm strengthening program starting in HS.
That's it, it is not too hard, but we seem to make it difficult.
Good luck!
Good stuff BOF.
Why do HS pitchers use sliders?
In other words why would a HS player perfer that over developing a CB?
Good stuff BOF.
Why do HS pitchers use sliders?
In other words why would a HS player perfer that over developing a CB?
I think there are a few reasons...
The pitchers (and many coaches) just don't know any better is probably the main one.
I suspect that for many (it was for me), a slider is easier to learn than a good curve. There's a bit more finesse with learning how to get a curve to break properly, and then how to hit your spots with it.
Personally - a real good changeup is the best pitch in baseball.
Originally Posted by TPM:…Why do HS pitchers use sliders?
In other words why would a HS player perfer that over developing a CB?
HS pitchers would throw standing on their head and behind the back if they thought it would get them lots of IPs. 
But I think the main reason is, all people don’t define a slider the same way. I’ve seen lots of people, coaches and layers included who will use “slider” interchangeable with “curveball”. And OI believe a lot of that comes from how they THINK the pitch should act.
I’ll bet you could take 10 people and have them all describe a slider and another 10 describe a curve, without using either of those words, and you’d be hard pressed to tell the difference from just reading the answers.
I agree with the definition as to what a true slider or curve could be different to different people.
BOF is right about having to have 3 solid pitches. But I don't think that means a slider and a CB. Also about the movement that he gets on his pitches.
Mine actually had a slurve ball end of HS, not a CB but not a true slider. Turns out that for him he had a better slider than a curve and it took almost 2 seasons to get it right.
No arguments on what you have presented.
This has been a hot topic for discussion here for many years.
Here's my 2 cents. If a kid does not have much arm speed he is at little risk for hurting his arm no matter what pitches he throws. That doesn't mean he should throw 100 pitches 2 days in a row as this will fatigue the arm and cause a lot of pain, and maybe damage.
For kids with good arm speed (top 10 percent say) they need to throw very few curves and NO Sliders. a slider for most kids is just a curve thrown hard. Trying to get 5 pitching coaches to agree on how to throw a slider is like trying to reason with a cat.
That kid with good arm speed... anything over 80mph before junior year... he needs to be very vigilant about his arm care.
My son has always had a good curveball. When he attended a camp (his eventual first college) the pitching coach made a comment that he didn't like curveballs. I should have paid attention, because sure enough that's what he tried to do to Bum, Jr., throw a college slider. Thank the man upstairs he didn't pitch much for them, transferred, then resumed throwing the bender. He's been fine ever since. Don't go to Surgery U.
as has been mentioned already, defining a curveball and slider can mean different things to different people. when my son was a freshman in HS he went to a tryout and was tood his breaking ball was a slider because of how hard he threw it in relation to his fastball velocity. If thrown with the right philosophy, the slider is no more dangerous than the fastball. If you watch slow motion video of technique of the slider you will note it is thrown with near fastball mechanics.
In the end, before giving blanket statements like “All XXX are good” or “All XXX are bad”, each should really be evaluated by someone who has the chops to do it well, and go on from there. Trouble is, where does everyone find access to someone like that? While there are a lot of folks who are EXPERTS in their own mind, the actual number of them running around out there is pretty low.
Taking that into consideration, the “safest” course is to limit the pitch types to the ones most familiar and easiest to judge, those generally being FB, CU.
Always interested in everyones take on this topic.
I think there is some good information on this subject.
My take is that I've seen very few REALLY good change ups from high school kids and if you are going to pitch on varsity, you better have a breaking ball or you are going to get lit up. IMHO
For me, this article kind of sums it up, a parent has to do his/her homework and decide what would be best for their own player.
FWIW, some people hold the ball for a slider/ CB the same way, this doesn't always translate into a true CB or a true slider. The grips are usually different. The young pitcher may be throwing more of a slurve than a true slider. That's why some people do have trouble defining the difference.
A curve is usually thrown 12-6 and slider a 1-7.
Originally Posted by gametimer:
“My take is that I've seen very few REALLY good change ups from high school kids and if you are going to pitch on varsity, you better have a breaking ball or you are going to get lit up. IMHO”
You’re right. Good HS CUs are few and far between. But that’s exactly why they should be thrown. Like any other pitch, they don’t get “better” by not throwing them. If you want to see someone get “lit up”, watch any average V pitcher who only has a FB, Curve. Talk about getting “lit up”, it might just be a bon fire. 
Stats4Gnats...I agree with you 100%. I said they needed a breaking ball or they'd get lit up. I didn't say they didn't need a CU too. My point is that if your CU isn't that good (my experience with HS pitchers for the most part), you better have a breaking ball too. You need to be able to throw all three as from what I've seen, the CU's and CB's aren't that good at the HS level, but you have to put the thought in the batters head at least to be effective.
gametimer,
Hmmmmm. Well, to be honest, MOST HS pitchers don’t even have 1 really good pitch, let alone 2 or 3.
But here’s the thing as I see it. At the V level, it doesn’t take an All-American stud to have success because quite frankly there aren’t a whole lot of really good hitters either. If a pitcher gets the ball around the plate, doesn’t give up a lot of BBs or HBPs as free gifts, the defense is at least AVERAGE, and every break isn’t a bad one, a kid can have a very nice HSV career with a good amount of success.
Its not so much a breaking ball that’s needed, its CHANGING-SPEEDS. The shame of it is, at the HS level that’s not determined as much by the pitcher as it is the guy calling the pitches who is usually the coach.
And that is what separates the average HSV pitcher from the elite. Changeups need to be taught and stressed at early ages. While velo is important, young pitchers need to be taught the CU. No, it's not as flashy as the curveball and daddy won't be able to brag to his friends in the stands about "Lil Johnny's" break on his curve ball. But we might see better more well rounded pitchers when they get to the HSV level.
. If you want to see someone get “lit up”, watch any average V pitcher who only has a FB, Curve. Talk about getting “lit up”, it might just be a bon fire.
Bum, Jr. had "only" a fastball and curve in h.s. and he ended up state player of the year. Definitely don't remember him getting lit up that year. A good curve acts like a changeup. The problem with trying to learn a good changeup early is you never will. These kids can practice it all day but it is the most difficult pitch to master and like I said before it just won't happen before the age of 20. So a'll they're practicing now is a useless pitch they won't throw later anyway.
A good breaking pitch is required to pitch in college. I don't remember any guys on my son's college teams without a curve (which I like) or a college slider (which I detest). I don't remember any guys with just a fastball + change repertoire.
The problem with trying to learn a good changeup early is you never will. These kids can practice it all day but it is the most difficult pitch to master and like I said before it just won't happen before the age of 20. So a'll they're practicing now is a useless pitch they won't throw later anyway.
That is simply not true. The CU may be a difficult pitch to master, but to abandon it just doesn't make sense. The change up is not as flashy a pitch as the curve ball and it is difficult to master, it takes work. Maybe these are the reasons kids have such trouble learning the CU
Well it is true. I didn't say abandon it, just realize that a h.s. change up is a BP fastball and that's all. It lack the fade, spin, rotation and depth that make it effective at the higher levels. Also, most importantly, h.s. kids for the most part throw it wrong, with a different arm speed than the fastball, which is the pitch they need to work on most.
There have been a few games where sons cu was just what the doctor ordered. That said, son has had great success on the mound with his 4 seam fb and his breaking ball. Learning to throw a CU the proper way coupled with having decent command of it is just about impossible at the hs level from what I have noticed. It is a pitch that you just dont feel aswell leaving your hand and thus difficult to command.
Turn22,
I agree with you, keep working on the change up.
Even at the professional level, many pitchers won't even throw it because they don't trust it and afraid because no one made them use it more often when they were younger.
DK doesn't throw a CB and didn't much in HS, he used his 4seam, 2 seam sinker and cu and did pretty well for himself.
Keep in mind that all pitchers are different, they throw what is best for their arm angle and slot and right or left handedness. Telling one person what is best for each is difficult if you do not have the above information.
Here's my thoughts on youth pitchers. Agree or disagree, everyone has a right to their approach with their pitchers.
Kids at a young age should be taught to firstand foremost throw a fastball with intent. A fastball is just what the name implies. It needs to be thrown hard and with intent to throw it hard. Secondly, kids need to be taught a Change up.
Teaching a CU to go along with the fastball. The CU should be taught to be thrown with the same arm action and speed as the fastball, again with intent. Younger kids seem not to rationalize the change in speed to change in arm speed. They more likely will throw everything with the same arm speed and slot if that's how they are taught from the beginning.
Third, as they mature I personally like the knuckle curve as a third pitch. It's a relatively easy teach and again can be thrown without taking too much off the ball if anything. My HSV son is very effective with this pitch. He throws his with the same arm slot and arm speed as his fastball. Result is a power curve.
From there, a true curveball may be taught if you choose.Along with variations on the fastball and change up.
TPM, there is nothing wrong with working on a changeup. I just want these parents of the younger kids to know it's not the same pitch at the next level. Completely different. The pitch these kids should work on his a good, hard fastball placed well. Turn22 is now advocating a knuckle curve--good grief! Some of these parents may not know your son and mine pitch professionally. Your son DK was a high draft choice and it was his fastball that they drafted. I doubt they worried much about the second pitch as they can teach that. As for my son, he was blessed with a solid left arm just perhaps not the blazing velocity of your son, so Bum, Jr. had to have a good second pitch, a good curveball. Now that he's got all three he's where he's at. But that great changeup--a decisive pitch for sure--eluded him until the past year or so.
Dang! A knucklecurve! Really??
My son is in a similar place as the OP. He's a 14 year old freshman who's 6'3" 150 lbs and still growing. His FB is in the mid 80's and he has a decent CU. He recently started throwing a split-fingered pitch that falls of the table. An orthopedic doctor and his HS pitching coach both said it would be OK for his arm. Now a couple other coaches have said it's not a safe pitch because the tendons tighten up in the elbow when the fingers separate increasing the likelihood of injuries. I'm wondering if anyone has any background with this pitch. Also, my son's HS pitching coach wants to work on a slider instead. I'm currently debating with my son as I have always heard (as has been repeated in the thread) that the slider isn't safe, especially when my son's growth plates aren't closed. Would my son be better perfecting the CU, or maybe learning a curve ball as a third pitch instead?
An orthopedic doctor who is not an expert in the torque involved in throwing a baseball should not be giving advice like that. The split-finger is surgery waiting to happen. Dad, don't you let that happen! As for his h.s. pitching coach, well, while you want to respect him he may have no clue as to the potential damage. He wants to win. You want to keep your boy healthy.
The curveball won't hurt your kid.
Work on the fastball and if you want to mix in a curveball and change-up that's okay. No way would I let him throw the splitter or slider unless you have very good medical coverage.
I don't really know what to say.So hope everyone does not get mad at me.
Very good post, proudhe'smine. We won't get mad at you, in fact, Welcome to HSBBW. Just remember the change up at 14 tends to move due to the effects of gravity and not grip, which is learned later.
Just remember the change up at 14 tends to move due to the effects of gravity and not grip, which is learned later.
Not if its properly taught. After learning to throw a proper fastball, the CU is the second pitch that should be taught I'm sure your son was instructed in pro ball to throw a proper CU, and I'm also sure he worked very hard to master it.
Where is it written that kids can't throw proper CUs.If they're intructed in the right way there's no reason they can't learn it. I have a 16 year old pitcher in HS that throws a devastating circle CU. And yes it's thrown with the correct grip and arm action.
Next you discredit the knuckle curve. This is a good pitch for younger age guys to use. It is relatively simple to learn and thrown like a fastball. There is also no snap of the wrist with this pitch, so parents and kids who were worried about the curve ball hurting their arms, might be more accepting of the pitch.
I will agree that kids should stay away from the splitter and even the slider to some degree.
My son threw a change in h.s. He learned a real change in college. He throws a great change in pro ball. Only on the other side will you know the difference.
I thought you were advocating a knuckle curve in h.s., which would be ridiculous. I have no problem with younger kids having fun with the pitch.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8BsnsFzHTw
This video with Tom House and Nolan Ryan may answer your questions for self - teaching. Orel Hershirer's philosophy was to change the "speed" and change the location of the pitch.
A young pitcher should work on his location of two pitches [fast ball and change up] before experimenting with a curve [NO slider and NO split finger].
With the web today, a young player can study video of the "proper" method to throw a curve.
As a hitter, I would "tip" my cap to a pitcher who throw on the outside corner, however if he missed by 2". He was "in trouble".
Bob
Santa Rosa, CA.
Originally Posted by Bum:
“Bum, Jr. had "only" a fastball and curve in h.s. and he ended up state player of the year. Definitely don't remember him getting lit up that year. A good curve acts like a changeup. The problem with trying to learn a good changeup early is you never will. These kids can practice it all day but it is the most difficult pitch to master and like I said before it just won't happen before the age of 20. So a'll they're practicing now is a useless pitch they won't throw later anyway.”
Obviously you missed the operative word in what I said. Without ever seeing him pitch, if he was an “all-state” player, he definitely was far above average. Believe me, if you wanna see an example of what I was talking about, don’t watch the #1 or #2 Starter on the V, watch the #4 or 5 pitcher the coach goes to.
Yes, a CU is a difficult pitch to MASTER, but it doesn’t take a great on to provide a lot of success, and for sure its no more difficult to MASTER than a Curve. Way too many people think the only useful change is a great change, but that’s not at all the case.
“A good breaking pitch is required to pitch in college. I don't remember any guys on my son's college teams without a curve (which I like) or a college slider (which I detest). I don't remember any guys with just a fastball + change repertoire. “
You’ve got it a bit mixed up. I’ll go along with a breaking pitch being required in college, but it doesn’t have to be good, nor does it have to be a curve.
Here’s what’s funny to me, and something I’ve said for nearly 20 years. Every kid that starts throwing a BASEBALL when they’ve very young and has to use 3 fingers to grip it, throws a CU. That’s why the 1st and easiest CU to learn is a 3 fingered CU. Why? Because they’ve already thrown it enough to get used to it.
If you don’t believe that, get a gun, any pitcher you like, a catcher, and take them to a pitcher’s mound. Have them warm up, then see the highest and lowest velocity they have on their FB on any of 10 pitches. Then, while they’re still warm, have them just move the ring finger behind the ball along with the index and middle fingers, and throw 10 more pitches as hard as they can. If there isn’t a substantial difference in velocity, he’s doing something very wrong when he throws his FB.
As for not throwing the pitch much if at all, more often than not its unreasonable fear that stops it from being thrown. I might be fear on the pitcher’s part, but I suspect more often than not, its fear on the part of whoever’s calling pitches, and the vast majority of time that will be the coach! There’s a belief that a poor CU will get pounded into oblivion by every hitter, so its not called very often. The trouble is, the only way it gets better, is its thrown in game situations, so not calling it pretty much sets up a self-fulfilling prophecy/catch-22 situation.
There were a lot of things about my boy’s HS coach I didn’t like, but the one thing I did like was this. Every time a pitcher was throwing to batters other than during “real” games, the pitchers HAD to throw FB, CU, and it didn’t matter if the hitters knew or not. That’s what they threw. The result was, we had a lot of kids who may not have thrown great changes, but they weren’t afraid to throw it when it got called, and the coach wasn’t afraid to call it.
