Curveball or not to curveball

Stats, you might be surprised that I don't really disagree with anything you said.  A changeup is a very useful pitch in h.s.  We've had this discussion before, and the vast majority of h.s. pitchers I will agree with you never will set foot on a college campus or go pro so throwing a changeup for them is completely legitimate.

 

It's also completely legitimate for those h.s. players that are going on to the next level. 

 

What I'm talking about is development.  For those with aspirations to move on, you have to have a breaking pitch.  A fastball + change repertoire won't cut it unless you're throwing sheer gas and are a closer.

 

So focus on the fastball, first and foremost.  Develop a breaking pitch.  I would advocate a curve as the slider is notorious for destroying arms.  And while I don't disagree with most anything you posted I can say with 100% no doubt that the solid change is far more difficult to master than a solid breaking pitch.

 

There were a ton of players Bum, Jr. knew in h.s. that moved onto J.C., and those he played with in D1 for that matter, that relied on college sliders and B.P. changeups and never stepped onto a pro field due to lack of an average (90 MPH) fastball.

 

Getting to that level is not for everyone.  Impossible for most.  Oftentimes I wonder, looking back at the progession of these players, whether it was a self-fulfilling prophecy, their ultimate failure, whether it was due to their lack of focus on the pitches that most mattered.

 

As for the knucklecurve at those levels, it was like Big Foot.  Non-existent.

You know that I agree with you about the CU being completely different at the pro level but chances are it's not going to happen for most so trying to be a successful pitcher at the HS level should be the first priority.  I agree that the FB is priority and then the CU learned as the secondary pitch, then everything to follow,  but most likely for most it's just what makes them more successful that will take priority.

 

Again the breaking pitch most likely be determined by the velocity of the pitchers FB, movement, etc.

I don't think that the knuckle curve is any more harmful that the regular curve as long as the snap of the wrist doesn't always occur and it is not the primary pitch of the young pitcher.

Bob, I remember talking about this with you on the telephone a few years back, remember how you explained to me most college hitters were "dive" hitters, sitting on the outer half of the plate because they knew the metal bat would save them if the pitcher went inside.  I always remembered that and thank you for that advice.  I told Bum, Jr. to keep going inside regardless.  It hurt him in college, I'll admit as he would often give up cheap doubles, but really paid off against wood.  He learned to keep attacking.  Thanks again, Bob.

 

 

Bum,

I disagree with your belief that sliders are notorious for destroying arms. Could you provide some real research or data that supports your belief?

Mr. Bum;

Thank you for the memories. If your son could advise young HS pitchers, what would he tell them? Two years of pro ball = 6 years of youth baseball.

Re: the Slider; please open this web page from Dr Andrews.

http://www.baseball-excellence...ionsdetail&id=44

 

The "change up" is an great pitch on the corners and below the belt.

 

Did you know why most RH hitters like the ball "up" and LH hitters like the ball "down"?

Bob Williams

Goodwill Series and Area Code games 1983-2013

<www.goodwillseries.org>

That's a great question, Bob.  I hesitate to answer for him so next time he's down here to visit me I'll see if I can prod him into posting an essay for the HSBBW addressing that very question.

That will be great. He has knowledge to provide to parents and players.

Who is his pitching coach this year? What pro organization?

 

BOB

Originally Posted by Bum:

…”What I'm talking about is development.  For those with aspirations to move on, you have to have a breaking pitch.  A fastball + change repertoire won't cut it unless you're throwing sheer gas and are a closer.”

 

There’s no doubt that a 2 pitch pitcher who wants to pitch pro ball better make sure one of those pitches is a plus pitch and the other one will need to be above average as well. I’d go along with it being a requirement in major DI ball as well, but I’ve seen way too many college pitchers who don’t have even 1 really good pitch, let alone 2 good ones. Remember, there’s a lot of different levels of college ball.

 

“So focus on the fastball, first and foremost.  Develop a breaking pitch.  I would advocate a curve as the slider is notorious for destroying arms.  And while I don't disagree with most anything you posted I can say with 100% no doubt that the solid change is far more difficult to master than a solid breaking pitch. “

 

I’m sorry Bum, but my experience is far far different from yours as far as the difficulty of learning to throw a “solid” change compared to learning to throw a “solid” curve. Of course your definition of solid would have to be a curve that has a good break but might be inconsistent and lacking accuracy, and a solid CU is at least 12.5% slower and highly accurate with very good movement.

 

Other than those very strict criteria for a CU and loose for the curve, the CU is a piece of cake to throw because there’s so many ways to throw it! People tend to believe a CU can only be a pitch thrown with FB arm speed and slot, with the same rotation, but that’s true only if a change of speed pitch is has extremely strict criteria. But in reality, any pitch other than a 4 speed FB is a change of speed pitch because its speed varies.

 

In the “old” days, curves were often considered CUs as were screwballs, cutters, sinkers, and every other imaginable pitch type. The idea was to change speeds to throw off timing, and that’s where the term CU came from.

 

“There were a ton of players Bum, Jr. knew in h.s. that moved onto J.C., and those he played with in D1 for that matter, that relied on college sliders and B.P. changeups and never stepped onto a pro field due to lack of an average (90 MPH) fastball.”

 

Them not setting foot on a pro field had nothing to do with not having a curve in most cases. Think about it. How many pitchers who don’t hit the magic 90 set foot on a pro field? That’s just the way things are. I don’t agree with it, but it doesn’t have jack to do with a curve.

 

“Getting to that level is not for everyone.  Impossible for most.  Oftentimes I wonder, looking back at the progession of these players, whether it was a self-fulfilling prophecy, their ultimate failure, whether it was due to their lack of focus on the pitches that most mattered.”

 

Don’t wonder too much. There are only so many spots open for pitchers in the ML, and that’s what determines how many pitchers get signed. Pitchers that don’t throw 90 are a dime a dozen, so its not worth anyone’s time to take even a superior pitcher who has proven over and over he can get people out, over a schlub who can’t hit the broad side of a barn but can hit the magic number. It by far one of the most ignorant ways to choose players in any sport, but that’s the way it is.

 

Bob.. Bum, Jr. is in the Mariners system.  Not sure who his pitching coach is this year but he's in long-A after jumping up from Rookie to short to long after going 7-3 as a starter.

 

Stats, I never said the curveball was required.  A fastball 90+ is required and a good breaking pitch.  There were a lot 90+ guys Bum, Jr. played with that didn't have a solid breaking pitch who never moved on to pro ball.  None I remember with a 90 MPH fastball and just a change.

 

That breaking pitch can be anything.  I only advocate the curve as I feel the slider is hard on the arm.  Once again, no problem with the change up.  It is a very effective pitch in h.s.  At the pro level, for a starter, it's absolutely required.  My whole point is that the changeup at that level is NOT the same pitch as the one in h.s.  Which is why I'm saying don't waste your time in h.s. trying to perfect it.  You won't.

 

Please stop trying to find fault in what I'm saying. It's tiring.  Parents of the younger players can choose to take my tips or disregard it completely the choice is theirs.

 

BTW, Stats, it's a common theme here on the HSBBW to assume those pitchers that throw 90+ "can't hit the broad side of a barn".  Just the opposite.  Their refined mechanics which enable them to hit 90+ also enable them to paint the zone.  There is a direct correlation.  I'll admit there are those who throw 96+ that struggle, but who wouldn't want to work with them? 

 

Bum;

Will you go to Spring Training?

 

Please carry this discussion to Gary Wheelock [Wheels]. His answers will be very interesting to this discussion, however you may wish to begin a "new" discussion.

"Interviews from the Professionals"

Gary is a friend and the Mariners "Specialist" pitching coach.

He has traveled as our coach to Australia and Japan.

 

Bob

California/Australia

 

 

Originally Posted by Bum:

Stats, I never said the curveball was required.  A fastball 90+ is required and a good breaking pitch.  There were a lot 90+ guys Bum, Jr. played with that didn't have a solid breaking pitch who never moved on to pro ball.  None I remember with a 90 MPH fastball and just a change.

 

I’m picking at nits here because you’re making blanket statements. What you’re saying in effect is, every pitcher in college or beyond has a 90+ FB and a good breaking pitch, and that just is not true.

 

That breaking pitch can be anything.  I only advocate the curve as I feel the slider is hard on the arm.  Once again, no problem with the change up.  It is a very effective pitch in h.s.  At the pro level, for a starter, it's absolutely required.  My whole point is that the changeup at that level is NOT the same pitch as the one in h.s.  Which is why I'm saying don't waste your time in h.s. trying to perfect it.  You won't.

 

Here again you’re saying every starter in the pros has a good change. That isn’t true either.

 

No pitch in HS is going to be perfected, so does that mean no pitcher should waste time working on any pitch? Pitching is a constant effort in trying to perfect pitches because it never happens for anyone!

 

Please stop trying to find fault in what I'm saying. It's tiring.  Parents of the younger players can choose to take my tips or disregard it completely the choice is theirs.

 

I’m not TRYING to find fault with what you’re saying. I’m just trying to get you to cut back on the hyperbole and exaggeration.

 

BTW, Stats, it's a common theme here on the HSBBW to assume those pitchers that throw 90+ "can't hit the broad side of a barn".  Just the opposite.  Their refined mechanics which enable them to hit 90+ also enable them to paint the zone.  There is a direct correlation.  I'll admit there are those who throw 96+ that struggle, but who wouldn't want to work with them? 

 

Maybe that’s a common theme because that’s what’s commonly seen. I’ll tell ya what Bum, you show me 1 90+ HS pitcher who can “paint the zone”, and I’ll show you 10 who can’t. Holy cow! There are scads and scads of ML pitchers who can’t “paint the zone”, and you’re trying to say any HS pitcher who throws that hard can? \

 

We’re right back to that hyperbole I was talking about. What won’t allow you to use words or phrases like “MOST OF”, “MANY”, “A LOT OF”, “A HIGH PERCENTAGE OF”, ETC.? You don’t have to impress me. I understand you have a lot of experience and knowledge, and I respect that. But I have a lot of experience and knowledge myself, and the things you see don’t match the things I see.

fastball change up and a curve..the change up is KEY and dont let anybody tell you a High school kid CAN'T master a change up,,thats just BULL.My son has been throwing a change since he was 9.Dont BS the board and say a High school kid cant master a change up..NOT TRUE..If you want to teach a kid how a change up feels and works,,LONG TOSS with a change up grip.it shows the kid how it works and gives him confidence to throw it

Originally Posted by wogdoggy:

 

fastball change up and a curve..the change up is KEY and dont let anybody tell you a High school kid CAN'T master a change up,,thats just BULL.My son has been throwing a change since he was 9.Dont BS the board and say a High school kid cant master a change up..NOT TRUE..If you want to teach a kid how a change up feels and works,,LONG TOSS with a change up grip.it shows the kid how it works and gives him confidence to throw it

 

Well, I don’t know about MASTERING any pitch at that age, but they can certainly throw it well enough to have one heck of a lot of success.

 

Here’s what I suspect happens with a lot of people who believe a CU is pretty useless in HS. Their kid tries to throw a CU and doesn’t throw it well or doesn’t throw it at the correct times, and gets pounded around a bit. That generates a built-in fear of both calling it on the part of the person calling pitches, and throwing it on the part of the pitcher, and the more it happens the worse the fear gets.

 

Like yours, my kid was taught and threw the CU from the time he started pitching at 10, and the last pitch he ever threw in completion was a CU to get a K as a college pitcher. I have even seen some HS pitchers who used the CU as their OUT pitch because it was so good. The whole thing is, it can’t be thrown with FEAR of failure.

 

When I see a pitcher who throws a change, the 1^st thing I look for is what’s in his face when he throws it. If I see fear in his face and in his body language, I know he isn’t going to throw it very often. But if I see that little smirk when the batter looks horrible swinging at it, and that in your face posture pitchers have when they know they’ve got the upper hand, I know the batters are in for an unpleasant day.

Stats4Gnats & WogDoggy, 

 

Please dial back a few notches on the aggressiveness of your rhetoric.

 

It appears that most of the friction in this thread is occurring because you're not on the same subject as the guy you're arguing with.  I think you are both refuting a claim that Bum did not make.

 

If I read Bum correctly:

 

He doesn't doubt that a CU can be effective in high school or younger level games.  Rather, he doubts high schoolers can master the kind of CU that will help get them recruited or drafted.  

 

There is tension at every level in baseball between what a pitcher can throw now to be most effective at his current level and what he needs to do to be attractive to evaluators at the next level.

 

Bum's advice to develop a next-level fastball and a solid curve is aimed at high school pitchers who want to keep playing after high school and seems to be offered without regard to maximizing effectiveness in high school.  Your comments about other pitches that are effective in high school aren't relevant to his argument.

 

I'm not sure your perspective on the issue is really all that far apart.

Your son needs to develop his FB, this is what Bum was talking about, I think.

Secondary pitches are just that, not meant to be primary pitches.

Although I agree with everything you say about learning the CU early, the pitcher needs to focus on the FB, if he wishes to play at a higher level one day.  He won't get a scholarship or drafted throwing CU on the first pitch.

JMO

Proudhesmine,

I'd love to see pitching video of your son. 

TPM, thank you for summing up exactly what my intent was.   It is amazing, isn't it, what we learn when we go through this journey as parents and see our kids doing what they're doing now.  Sometimes I feel like trying to explain it to others is fruitless.  I only keep trying in order to "give back" but no good deed goes unpunished.

Bob, I really want to go.  Bum, Jr. is down in Las Vegas with me right now and tommorow I'll ask him about "Wheels".  You are one of the good guys, Bob, and I thank you again for everything you've done for Bum, Jr. and baseball itself.

BUM; please go.

 

When Robert was the Mariners Scout for China, I traveled to Peoria and visited with the coaches and players. It was educational to observe the instruction

from the professionals.I remember when Edgar Martinez had the pitching machine "cranked" up to 100 mph for "tracking" the pitch. Ichiro also had the machine at 100 mph, however he was swinging and making contact.

 

Please notice the difference in "quickness and reaction" from HS to College and College to Professional baseball.

 

Bob

Santa Rosa, CA

Originally Posted by Swampboy:

 

Stats4Gnats & WogDoggy, 

 

Please dial back a few notches on the aggressiveness of your rhetoric.

 

Is this the 1^st stage of some kind of threat to ban one or both of us from HSBBW? Good grief! Its not as though we’re calling each other names or using inappropriate language. We disagree and are discussing it!

 

It appears that most of the friction in this thread is occurring because you're not on the same subject as the guy you're arguing with.  I think you are both refuting a claim that Bum did not make.

 

If I read Bum correctly:

 

He doesn't doubt that a CU can be effective in high school or younger level games.  Rather, he doubts high schoolers can master the kind of CU that will help get them recruited or drafted.  

 

There is tension at every level in baseball between what a pitcher can throw now to be most effective at his current level and what he needs to do to be attractive to evaluators at the next level.

 

Bum's advice to develop a next-level fastball and a solid curve is aimed at high school pitchers who want to keep playing after high school and seems to be offered without regard to maximizing effectiveness in high school.  Your comments about other pitches that are effective in high school aren't relevant to his argument.

 

I'm not sure your perspective on the issue is really all that far apart.

 

The only thing we really differ on is that his advice doesn’t in any pertain to ALL HS pitchers. Most HS pitchers only want to be successful enough to get another turn on the bump, and don’t have plans to get a baseball scholarship. They might not have the capacity to get batters out with only a FB, and need the deception a CU can and does give them if they’re allowed to work on it and throw it.

 

What he’s saying is, “Don’t bother to work on a CU because it won’t help you get that ‘ship or get drafted”, and I’m saying do whatever you can do to have success now and help your team. If that makes me some kind of jerk or troublemaker and you want to boot me off the site, I guess I better be prepared to go.

 

A self-imposed ban, Gnat?

 

Of course most h.s. pitchers aren't going to college.  So throw the change-up, the splitter, the knucklecurve, the gyroball, a screwball or whatever you like.  Throw back-to-back, 150 pitches per game, because it doesn't matter, you'll be changing tires at your parttime job soon.  How's that for agreeing with you, Gnat? 

 

I'm speaking to the serious players and their parents, the ones who logged onto HSBBW and obviously wish to take their or their son's craft to the next level.  I doubt there are a whole lot of marginal players interested in my advice. 

 

Which may explain why you aren't either.

 

 

Proudehesmine,

My son started throwing a curveball when he was 12 years old. At the age of 14-15 it kind of morphed into a slider (just threw it harder). He played varsity his freshman year (2 years ago) as a pitcher and position player. He threw generally fastballs and breaking balls with the occasional change-up. He is now going into his junior year in hs and has been training hard on his change-up for this year. He will still generally throw the fb and breaking ball in most games- his bread and butter. No starting pitcher in our entire hs conference throws just a fastball. All of them throw at least two pitches with the majority of them throwing fb's and cb's. There is a certain myth out there about "throwing too many curveballs destroys the arm". It just isn't the actual real problem. ASMI have done studies in recent years and they have found the leading problem of arm troubles is "overuse" and not throwing too many breaking balls. The fastball actually puts the greatest load pressures on the arm and joints with the breaking ball and change-up next in order. The real question parents and pitchers should ask is- "should I throw more pitches than normal or less"?

 

My advice- Develop the curveball and other offspeed pitches. They will allow your pitcher to pitch less pitches in innings, less pitches per game and overall- less pitches overall leading to better overall arm health.

Why not just teach your pitchers to throw a 2 seam FB to contact to induce groundballs?  Then they won't throw too many pitches?  Or maybe that pitch just isn't for everyone. That's why some throw CU, some throw CB, some throw sliders.  There is no right or wrong.

 

The pitcher needs to pitch to his strength, not someone elses.

 

Throwing CB or sliders when the growth plates are not joined can do damage, especially if they throw them more often than they need to.  Unfortunetly most youth hitters and HS hitters have trouble with the CB, so for some it becomes a regular pitch for success, trouble for many, maybe not for others. That is the KEY to the question, who knows?

 

Skylark, you are too funny, you change your story, you stated several years ago that your son threw CB at 10 now it's 12.  He also threw a gyroball. Is he not throwing that pitch anymore?

 

 

Stats,

This website is more than just playing at the HS level.  It has become more about how to get to the next level, college or pro.  I doubt that most that come here are satisfied just to play in HS and then call it a day.  I agree with Bum.  This is more than just making the HS team.

 

The one constant is and should be, develop the fastball, everything else is second to that, that is why they call them, the pitcher's secondary stuff.

 

He will need a breaking pitch, eventually, when you feel he is ready, and you feel comfortable with it.

A properly thrown curveball will not hurt a kid.  Throwing hard without proper rest will.

That may or may not be true, there are variables and many don't have proper mechanics at an early age. I am talking about young pitchers, 9-13. 

My son doesn't throw a cb, because of his velocity, the slider works better for him. I hate that pitch, I beleive it caused a lot of his problems he had after college and he threw it properly. 

But what do I know.

TPM,

I like being funny. I have never said my kid threw a curveball at 10. Wow, everytime you bring it up you add another year on it. You need a better memory there..hehehe. He didnt develop his knuckle-curve into an actual breaking ball until he was around 12 years old. The gyroball- he grew out of that. Although, he does throw a heavy fastball.

Pitching too much, especially for hard throwing kids, is not good for their growth plates until it fuses, then its a matter of ligaments that are at risk. But, that is for "overuse", not for throwing breaking balls. This dogmatic belief about curveballs being bad for arms just wont go away...

Its the "fastball" that is thrown too much that is damaging kids arms. Its called "overuse".

Originally Posted by TPM:

Stats,

This website is more than just playing at the HS level.  It has become more about how to get to the next level, college or pro.  I doubt that most that come here are satisfied just to play in HS and then call it a day.  I agree with Bum.  This is more than just making the HS team.

 

You “doubt most who come here are satisfied just to play HS and call it a day”. I doubt HS most pitchers can’t learn and throw a CU that will not only serve as an excellent 2^nd pitch, but serve them all the way until their career ends. Why do you see a HS pitcher throwing a CU as hindering his chances at pitching at any level beyond, and being a waste of time, because that’s another thing Bum is saying.

Throwing a changeup in h.s. won't hinder your chances.  Not being able to throw a solid fastball and also having a breaking pitch will.  Focus on what I'm saying, Gnat.

I'm a pitching coach and instructor and also a certified athletic trainer (recently graduated), and I've done a few presentations on UCL strains. Now while this thread isn't meant to be talking about that, it is a thread that mentions the curveball.

In a study done by Nissen, Westwell, Ounpuu, Patel, Solomito, & Tate, (2009),(A biomechanical comparison of the fastball and curveball in adolescent baseball pitchers.) they found that "the moments on the shoulder and elbow were less when throwing a curveball than when throwing a fastball. In each comparison, the fastball demonstrated higher moments for each individual pitcher for both joins." What this is suggesting is that the rising incidence of shoulder and elbow injuries in pitchers may not be caused by throwing too many curveballs, but in fact be because of too many fastballs.

In a kinematic comparison among the fastball, curveball, change-up, and slider in collegiate baseball pitchers,  Fleisig, Kingsley, Loftice, Dinnen, Ranganathan, Dun, Escamilla, Andrews, (2006), found that, "At the shoulder internal rotation torque, horizontal adduction torque, abduction torque, and proximal force were significantly less in the change-up than in the three other pitches." Blah blah blah basically what they found was the change up is the safest pitch, so if you'd like to err on the side of caution, go ahead and teach it.

Thank you for the information.

The key word is "may not". We all understand that overuse is the biggest factor.

 

My son threw hard as a young pitcher, we tired real hard to limit his time on the mound and we made sure that he didn't play year round baseball in a state with sunshine almost everyday. Iunderstand now why his pitches were 4, 2 seam and CU in the order. He never had any issue until after he left college.  That was when he began using the slider more often.

 

Thanks again.