I have used what you describe as the "right way" for a long time. I've always contemplated though, Isn't it better to have the ball in the hands of the more athletic players that have quicker hands when making cut offs? Almost, every year I've coached I've had more athletic SS's than 1B. I don't think I'm alone in that boat. I'm just trying to tweak and work out new and better ways for my team to get it done on the field. I'm not going to bow at convention and say it is right because it has always been that way. Again, I don't want to sound cynical, because if it works for you then it is the "right way".......for you. The "Right Way", I would think, is what is the most productive way. Have a blessed day. 

Earl Weaver has Cal Ripken as he cut off man deep into the OF. Ripken had a stronger arm than any OF on the team. Coaches should adjust as well as the players.

The 1b is the cutoff near the mound on all throws from Left center to the RF line.

He needs to know the arm strength of all OF and makes "no half-hopps". 

Bob

International Baseball 30 years

I used to coach with a guy who always wanted to use SS as cut...which I deemed wrong. My thinking? If the 1B is not the cut to most balls in the OF, he essentially becomes a statue. It's like playing with one less player. Use all players at the best positioning for your cuts to maximize your opportunities. 

Does anyone even know who invinted "the right way."  The Anaheim Angels have a rule on cuts to home.  Anything hit over the head of the SS the SS will cut the ball to home plate.  Anything to his glove side will be taken by the First Baseman.  If that is the right way for them then that is the right way for me.

Thank you for being condescending Papi. I want to hear what other people think about this topic. Obviously, you are just going to continue your attempt to make people without the same opinion as you feel like they are stupid.

Question soul slam,what do your 2b and SS do when the 1b cuts the balls from the OF? Who is at first for a throw behind on that aggressive runner the hit the ball to the OF. I'm open to suggestions. Thanks for the input.

doesn't your SS have other repsonsibilities depending on situation? tandem relay, covering 2b, etc.

Now I will caveat this...while my SS might have been more athletic, my 1B was a smarter player. He understood what his role was on all cuts. My primary SS had a lot of problems knowing where to go. So invention is the mother of necessity I think.

Depends where ball is hit. I look at where the ball is hit in the OF like a grid. If it's hit deep, 2B or SS has to go out for double cut. The grid is basically 10 assymmetrical boxes. 

I like to cover every area of the field - if the ball is hit down LF line, my 3B takes the cut, and my 1B backs up HP. 

If you can get to an MLB game...try watching the IF on balls hit to the OF (which means you have to watch where the ball ain't)...it's a thing of beauty. I just try to mirror that. 

Its not that I didn't like it, but you started off pissy when you said "I prefer to teach them to play the right way" like the thought I had of using the SS is the worst idea in baseball. Opinions can be given without being a douche. You failed to do that.

Soul Slam. My thinking with using the SS as a cut is this.

Plays at Home: Pitcher is back up on all.

- ball hit to LF - 3B covers bag, SS is cut, 2B bag, 1B at home, 

- ball hit to CF - 3B bag, SS is cut, 2b bag, 1b bag

- ball hit to RF - 3b bag, SS bag, 2B covers 1st, 1B cuts

Play at 3B: Pitcher is backup.

- ball hit to Lf - 3B bag, SS cut, 2b bag, 1b bag

- ball hit to CF - 3B bag, SS cut, 2b bag, 1b bag

- ball hit to RF - 3B bag, SS cut, 2b bag, 1b bag

None of these scenarios would affect my tandem cuts. Our rule is if the ball goes to the fence we double cut. My SS and 2B are the double cut team.  The side of the field ball goes to determines who goes first. I have many kids that play multiple positions depending on who is pitching. I'm not stacked with depth so one day a kid may play LF, the next day SS, then 3B. It just depends on who is on the bump. 

Its not that I didn't like it, but you started off pissy when you said "I prefer to teach them to play the right way" like the thought I had of using the SS is the worst idea in baseball. Opinions can be given without being a douche. You failed to do that.

Soul Slam. My thinking with using the SS as a cut is this.

Plays at Home: Pitcher is back up on all.

- ball hit to LF - 3B covers bag, SS is cut, 2B bag, 1B at home, 

- ball hit to CF - 3B bag, SS is cut, 2b bag, 1b bag

- ball hit to RF - 3b bag, SS bag, 2B covers 1st, 1B cuts

Play at 3B: Pitcher is backup.

- ball hit to Lf - 3B bag, SS cut, 2b bag, 1b bag

- ball hit to CF - 3B bag, SS cut, 2b bag, 1b bag

- ball hit to RF - 3B bag, SS cut, 2b bag, 1b bag

None of these scenarios would affect my tandem cuts. Our rule is if the ball goes to the fence we double cut. My SS and 2B are the double cut team.  The side of the field ball goes to determines who goes first. I have many kids that play multiple positions depending on who is pitching. I'm not stacked with depth so one day a kid may play LF, the next day SS, then 3B. It just depends on who is on the bump. 

Hey man, we agree on something at least. I also have 1B trail to 2B on tandem cuts. 

Coach

Two thoughts (and a personal aside)...

1. If this is your team you have every right to run cuts the way you think best...using your players to the max of their capabilities. I totally agree with that.

2. You should let the boys know that when the get to HS, things may change and the HS coach may want them to do it differently. You don't want players reacting negatively to HS coaches strategies. 

As the aside...I started cutting the ball off the way I do when my team was all of 10 years old. Everybody said it was too difficult, blah, blah, including my asst. coaches. But by the time these boys (the core players anyway) got to 60/90 it became routine. Funny thing, my asst. coaches wanted to do things different because they had a tough time grasping it. I always laughed at that one. 

I understand that. Always room for improving things. 

By your rationale, 11 people called someone a douche which means only 11 people have acted like a douche. You're in good company indeed.

Yes, my friend, I wouldn't pass that up. I wish you good luck in your future endeavors and this will indeed by my last post with you. 

Iebsbl:

If interested, I can send you a few pages from the 90 page "Seattle Mariners" playbook on defense and "cutoffs". Of course,

if an opposing coach desires to change his team's defense "cut off"  strategy, our coaches will adjust our "runners" to an aggressive "mode".

When we played the Japan HS National Team, our coaches were aggressive with the base runners. The Japan used "double" relays on  the OF throws.

"There are 11 ways to score from 3b with less than 2 outs". 

As a coach I need runners at 3rd base.

Bob

<goodwillseries24@gmail.com>

Cuts and double cuts, my thoughts.  First and foremost, the situation with regards to the score, what inning, and where the base runners are will dictate how I/we cut and double cut.  But here is the generic way we do it. 

A legit double hit hard to the OF requires a double cut.  If my OF has to turn and run then 90% of the time it’s a double cut and both my MIF’s are the double cut.  The first baseman drops about 6 inches into the infield grass and watches the runner step on first base as he rounds it, then trails for a back door opportunity.  This also positions the 1^st baseman to be closer to the cut 4 position if it gets ugly.  I have the strongest arm lead the double cut for obvious reasons. 

A gap shot that only requires a standard cut will be taken by the nearest MIF while the other is covering 2^nd base.  We are always lining up our cut one base ahead of the runner, double cuts line up for three and a standard cut may line up for 2^nd, 3^rd, or home. 

Cut 4 in LF is taken by my 3^rd baseman (ideally) and he positions himself in the infield grass near 3^rd base.  This allows him to watch the base runners while taking the cut.  If it is a hard knock all the way to LF corner and requires a double cut, my SS will assist or lead the double cut but the 3^rd baseman still stays in the IF. 

Pitcher backs up home on a cut 4 to the LF side and SS trails the runner from 2^nd to 3^rd if he is not needed for the cut.  2^nd baseman covers 2^nd.  If the SS has to assist with the double cut to home, the pitcher becomes a 3^rd baseman. 

In short, I/we have four basic rules for our defense:

1.       Get an out

2.       Field the ball

3.       Be a cutoff man

4.       Cover/backup  a base

If you aren’t doing one of those for things when the ball is put in play, you may as well just buy a ticket and watch from the stands. 

Eephus2013 – I hope this helps.  Side note, take a chill pill.  You are seriously misreading biggerpapi’s original reply to you. 

Thank you for the input. and by the way I was very civil in my return comment to Papi. 

Runner on first and basehits to the OF my SS will be my cut / relay man for all OFs going to 3B.

Runner on second and basehits to the OF my 1B and 3B will be my cut / relay men for all OFs going home.  I want my 1B to handle as many of these as he can get because it helps set up a back pick to 3B with the 3B staying home. But on the left side it has to be the 3B with SS rotating over to take 3B for a back pick.

On double cuts / tandems I have three rules of thumb that my guys will always follow

1) If the ball gets past an OF (doesn't always have to be to the fence) then we automatically go into double cut / tandem situation

2) As long as the OF has his back to the IF and is running then my MIF is running with them.  The OF stops then they stop and set up.

3) All throws are 2/3 then 1/3 - meaning the OF will make the longest throw in the chain with an IF making the shorter throw.  I actually use this idea with non - double cut / tandem situations as well.

Nobody on and ball past an OF - 2B or SS will lead if ball is to their side with the other one floating 10 - 12 feet behind for bad / errant throws.  I teach them if they have to jump or bend over to catch the throw then to let it go to the floater because it should be above the waist / below the head for them.  The lead MIF has to communicate when ball is in the air - me, me, me or you, you, you - so the floater knows to attack the ball.  I teach my 1B to come inside the bag and get right to the edge of interference to force (hopefully) the runner deeper towards RF on their turn.

Runner on first and ball gets past the OF I do everything the same as above EXCEPT my 1B automatically goes to the mound area lining up between home and the middle of the space between my MIF.  When a ball gets past OF the thought is that they are getting two bases so we need to stop them from getting a third.  So by having the ball going to 3B automatically we are hoping to create a close play or have the ball in quick enough it stops an aggressive turn at 3B.  But if they take a huge turn then we can still have a throw home from our MIF who are now in the OF with a cut / relay man in the IF with our 1B.  You can still work a back pick at 2B with a corner OF who is away from the play.  So if the ball is on the RF side of CF then the LF will hustle to 2B for the back pick and vice versa.

Not trying to be a smart alec or anything but if your 1B is more athletic than your SS then you need to make a switch or you're probably not going to be very good.  Plus I want an athlete at 1B because it's tougher than people think it is. 

INTERESTING:

Is you 1b left or right handed? Does he field the throw on the left side or right side?

When he plays "off the bag" at 1b, does he move left or right according to the batter's

swing?

Does he know how quick the 2b is to his left and his right?

Bob

<goodwillseries.org>

You asking me these questions?  Could you clarify a little more what you're wanting to know?

Do you position your defense based on your pitcher and the hitter swing?

BOB 

All the above.  If I have a stud who is bringing it then we are going to shade backside due to the probability of late swings.  If we have a good pitcher then we will try to shade towards swing strength or pitch location.  The problem with really going with this is high school baseball has such a small sample size of at bats to really best guess where he's going to hit.  If we're playing a team for the first time then we play straight up until after a couple of pitches / swings to see what he may do.

As for if he knows how quick the 2B is he better because we incorporate the 2B in with our "get over" drill with pitchers covering first on ground ball to right side. 

Coach:

The reason I asked about the 1b left handed or right handed. Left

handed should always position their body to field on their right and keep their glove low until the catcher gives the instructions "cut". this saves "one second" it may result in an out somewhere on the  field, if not at home.

If the 1b and coach knows the speed of the

2b, then he can play off the bag and deep to prevent the "seeing eye" hit to his right.

This allows the 2b to play to his right. The 1b always tells the pitcher to move toward 1b on any ball hit toward on the right side of the diamond.

Several years ago in Sydney, Australia, Pat Kelley, former 2b with the NY Yankees

now Seattle Mariners International scout living in Australia ask me to join in a discussion with all the NSW State Team infielders.

"He told the players to field the ball with their left ear", except left handed fielding 1b, then it is the right ear.

Bob

I gotcha on all that but sometimes those are really hard concepts to get.  You're dealing with a much higher level ability of player than what I am.  Sometimes due to ability levels my guys will never get to that level so that I can teach those things. We do drills that help teach these concepts but my number one concern is to make sure they go to the right places defensively.

I do like the field the ball with the left ear and never heard it put that way.  I'm going to borrow that if you don't care. 

Good stuff and dialogue though.  Really enjoying the interaction

Coach; you maybe interested in this book.I always have this book for our players traveling to Australia each year. It is available at Barnes and Noble used @ $2.00.

Nine Sides of the Diamond: Baseball's Great Glove Men on the Fine Art of Defense

• by David Falkner
• Bob

Coach;

The majority of athletes learn by "kinetic"method. Show a player how to field correctly and "walk" him through it. The Japanese HS coaches train their players in "quick" drills with many repeated swings or throws or running.Use "U-tube" to watch the Japanese training methods.

In Mr Baseball Movie [one of my favorite with Tom Selleck], the Japanese marketing agent said "Japan takes a little from other countries and makes it's own". We can do the same.

It is a game of split seconds and inches and thinking "ahead".

On my card is the question "can you teach a player to read the bat".

Bob

The right way for us is that the SS is the relay man on any ball hit to left and the 2B is the relay man for anything to right regardless of bag being thrown to.

Tandem relays we work with the SS and 2B except on throws to the plate (we use the 1^stbaseman as the trail guy).  The rule we use for single vs tandem relay is if the outfielder has the ball or is camped out under the ball as the SS/2B reaches the bag we will single cut. If not, both middle infield continue on to be in the tandem relays.  Our 1B covers second base if both middle guys are in the relay.

 I coach at the high school level. The first thing I had to implement when I went to my current program last season was there is no such thing as a "double cut". SS and 2B must have strong enough arm to be able to cut and relay to any base/plate from their cut position. When the ball is hit to the fence, we have the trailer follow the cut off as simply a safety net (that's the whole purpose of them being there). I tell the trailer to drop about 10-15 feet behind the cut man incase the ball is either thrown over the cut man's head or it slips through under his glove. This way the trailer will be able to continue with the relay as needed. This way is the proper way.

Now, at the little league level or if you are playing in a park without a fence, I would teach a "double cut" style relay. Only because their arms wouldn't be strong enough to make that far throw at that point in their playing career.

I'm curious what your cut-off system is and how it's so difficult that asst's are complaining? I always assumed it was the same at all levels?

Fast runner on first and ball hit to the left of the 2B man.  One of those slow enough to be able to go after it.  Who is now your cut / relay man to third with that fast guy rounding second?

The 2B is not going to get back into cut / relay position.  On most situations like this your 2B has to cover a lot of ground to get into position whereas the SS only has to take a few steps and be in position.  This is why I support having the SS be cut / relay to all throws to 3B.

That being said and this goes to everyone - no matter what you run, if you are getting runners out or keeping them from advancing then you're running your cut / relays correctly.  More than one way to skin a cat.

Yes....ish - obviously this is the longest throw in baseball but there still needs to be someone there.  Great strong throw from RF but it's off line but low enough for the SS to relay to 3B for a chance or on situations where your 2B can get back to the bag then you can cut and throw behind.

If your RF has the arm to get the ball to 3B like a man then let him show it off in pre-game and you don't have to worry about a cut / relay man because that runner is probably not going to test it.  But since most HS arms are not like that then you need someone there just in case.

I gotcha and you're right on that situation.

coach2709, I like the way you are thinking, but that play has not been a factor for us.  It is also why I teach ours that we will tandem relay everything unless our rules tell us otherwise. It lets them have the mind set that they are going to back up the cut-off man.  Our short stop should be heading in that direction and if he sees that the second baseman can not get back into position, he can easily step into the role of being the cut-off man.  

The hardest (having to really run to get there) for the second baseman is backing up the SS cutoff on a ball hit to deep left field or LF corner on a throw to third.

I assume my assistants complained because they played a lot of LL and not a lot of 60/90 baseball; interestingly the one asst. I had that did play higher level ball always agreed with me. The other 2 always wanted to make it simple like a rec team. 

We ran cuts the way it is taught fro 60/90 on up. I didn't try to re-invent anything. 

This is an old thread i just ran across...a comment on the tandem relay:

WE play that on a double down the LF line, the SS and 3B go out for the Tandem relay, and the 2B runs over to cover third....really hard for the 2B to get all the way out to the third base line for the tandem relay, but the 3B bag doesn't move and it is much easier for him to get there.

Just the way we do it....for what its' worth

3b stays at 3b. 2b prepares for "run down" back up by rf

bob

Then where is your tandem relay if 3B is staying home and 2B is preparing for a rundown?  Not sure what you mean....

TCB1, since the objective is to keep the runner at 2b. There are 11 ways to score from 3b with less than 2 outs.

The SS has a strong arm and would be capable of the relay w/o the 2B. Your use of the 2b as a trailer is for the low % chance that the LF misses the cutoff.

Your daily practice would insure accuracy of throwing and the 2b is important at 2b for the "run down". The RF is backup at second base. The 1b is the cut off for an over throw from the LF or SS to third base.

This is from the Seattle Mariners play book.

Bob