D-II vs D-III

JT

Some of the top Divison III programs could compete at the lower tier Division I level much less any Division II level

Both division II and III schools can be very creative in fact there are Division III programs that can do better with $$$ if the player has the grades and the $$ need.

JT,
Sorry I don't know more about the financial part of your question. As far as the Division comparison, TR can back me up on this one. There are top D3 schools that are comparable and even better then some D1 programs. I watched Eastern Ct State play Vermont and Manhattan a few falls agao and you would have no idea they (ECSU)are a D3 school.

TR,
we posted the same thoughts here...Look at the times LOL

JT.....we found that the financial assistance was greater from D3's than the D2's......seems the D2's have some restrictions when trying to mix athletic with academic money. The D3's had no such barriers and with son's good GPA/SAT's the scholi money was far and away better....

By the way....son is in your neck of the woods......and thankfully, likes the school and area a lot.....

Thanks for the input, gang. This D-II opportunity kind-of caught us off guard. Your thoughts pretty much back up my impressions, and it's good to know that the D-III schools can get creative. Right now, my son's #1 choice is the top tier D-III that is calling him weekly.

JT,
Having played at DII (Wingate U) and coach at DIII (Villa Julie) everything being said is pretty much the right. DII does however have no issue when working with academic and athletic money together...that just depends on the school...not knowing exactly what top 20 DIII school but having a good idea assuming your looking somewhat locally would easily compete with top DII's. I can tell you this...if I remember correctly you are a teacher of some sort...because of the "athletic" money there is much more pressure to win at the DII level and the coaches jobs are tied much more closely to winning than other criteria. At the DIII level, we all want to win but most of our jobs are tied to it...more like Team GPA's, attitude's on campus type things...That mean our focus on growing an athlete off the field tends to be very intense as well...please don't take this as we don't have the desire to win, because that's what keeps us going!

VJC.....off hand....Upper Iowa Univ. (D2) comes to mind....stated we would loose the academic scholi if we took athletic money.....

My son transferred from a D-2 to a D-3, but when he was recruited out of high school, all of the D-2's that spoke with him offered "packages"-combinations of baseball and academic money. His scholarship actually had 4 components, and we didn't care if it had 10 as long as it added up to a nice total. Oddly enough, at his D-3 he obviously has no scholly, but with in state tuition, our cost is about the same. The private out of state schools run around 33K per year, whereas the in-state public school runs around 14K.

Baseball-wise, the others have hit it pretty well. Son's impression is that the baseball program at his D-3, considered a solid D-3 program, is as good if not better than most of the D-2's in his old conference, the SAC, which is a pretty well-regarded D-2 conference. Facilities at the D-3 are actually substantially superior to his former D-2. Of course, being happier where he is now likely colors his views somewhat. He said that while the players work just as hard, the D-3 atmosphere seems more relaxed.

Thanks, hokieone! We are actually comparing a SAC school to one in your son's conference. The facilites were not the best at the SAC school, but a "benfactor" has donated the $$ for a full field renovation. We, too, were talked to in terms of a "total package," and that makes pretty much sense.

As a newbie to the entire process, and to HSBBW, we have been educated greatly by the discussions on the site. We have encountered exactly what Hokie one is talking about. Our instate programs (NJAC) , DIII schools , are , how can I say, more cost effective than even a 50% scholly at most schools.
I have heard the NJAC are looking to go DII.
Has anone else heard this?

I have not heard that about the NJAC...but I can say the NJAC is a very well respected conference in DIII...it's up there with the CAC (which we just joined this past month), and the USA South which is also very strong! In the the north, the NJAC is much stronger as a conference than the the PSAC and anybody else in the region..some individual teams might be stronger but as a whole not as strong...

AZred...What you are talking about will definately be school specific, there is nothing that will hold back a DII school from offering substantial money in both academic and athletic...the coach is probably thinking "I don't have to give him my athletic money if he gets the academic and I can reserve it for someone else" of course he didn't land your son...so i'm assuming his loss!! :-)

Just look at any Arizona juco, there stocked full of drafted players, these guys want to retain control of there rights and sign sooner than later, so u can be assurd there is quality at the D111 level, at least MLB thinks so !

The reason I remember this school is because it was a form letter from their financial aid office.....advised us of the academic money and went on to state no mix of academic and athletic monies....so it must be a school policy.....

.....and VJC.....Upper Iowa was too far up north!

I'm going to try and squeeze this question into this forum rather than start a new topic. My son called a D-III coach last night because the coach had called while we were in FL for the PG Showcase last week. My son introduced himself and had a nice conversation for about 15 minutes. The coach said he wanted to send my son some material and set up a visit to the school which is only about 3 hours away from us. My son told the coach that even though he's not allowed to make an official visit, being only a Jr., that we'd have no problem coming to the school unofficially for a "show-around" and possibly a work-out. The coach answered "You're a Jr.? I thought you were a Sr.!" And they both had a good laugh. But the coach then said something that puzzled my son. He said "I'm not supposed to be talking to you!", but then said "Oh wait, you called me so it's ok"..I was under the impression that a D-III coach could make as many calls to a player regardless of his grad year . Could it be that this coach, who my son really liked from this one conversation, doesn't know the rules? I'm sure they are D-III and haven't moved up to D-II. Have they changed the rule this year? Anyone? Anyone?

DIII rules are the same as DI rules except for scholarship money. We cannot initiate contact via the phone until after July 1 of your son's Junior year, however if the player calls the coach they can speak to each other, however the coach is not allowed to even return a message until that date. We can make contact via email, mail or third party such as a coach in the mean time! So the coach is correct, it is ok as long as your son made the phone call...

The Coach did call first, left a message on the answering machine!
Honest mistake on his part?
They say they're not suppose to have contact with a player till after there junior year July 1. But it is totally on the Honer System Right?

If these kids play any travel ball at all, they come in contact with Asst. Coaches all the time. Is that a violation?

On page 28 of the 2004-2005 NCAA Guide for the College Bound Student Athlete NCAA Guide for the College Bound Student Athlete, under Division II with regards to telephone calls it states "No limit on number of calls or when they can be made by the college coach." Can someone straighten me out here?

Sorry, that last post was messed up. I meant under Division III, not II, but the quote is correct.

TheEH,
It was an honest mistake...yes and no on the honor system...people can report and the coach can be reprimanded...it is a minor infraction. Accidents happen all the time...as long as Juniors aren't being contacted regularly its usually a non-issue.

Pop,
Yes there is no limit...at DI you cannot contact an athlete via Telephone more than once in a week...hence emial, text messages. As for when a DIII coach can contact a recuit, July 1 is a universal NCAA rule I believe for any athlete, at any level, in any sport. but I'll get back to you shortly!

Exception to the rule:

Rule 13.17.1.1 in the NCAA manual ...
to avoid rewriting the rule in it's totality, it says that the service academies are permitted to contact the prospective student during the junior year (prior to the July 1 date). However, they are still limited to the same number of contacts as other DI schools.

Again, I refer you to page 28 of the "Guide for the College Bound Student Athlete". Is it mis-written or something?

One thing to kind in mind is the number of games played in DIII vs DI/DII/NAIA. Typically DIII's play around a 40 game season, where as the others play around 60 games.

Division II programs may begin calling June 15 of the summer between junior and senior HS years--- this is 15 days prior to Division I

DIII teams can play a 40 game schedule plus post season tournaments. In 3 of our sons 4 years, the team ended up playing 45-48 games. DI/II and NAIA play a 56 game schedule.

montanadad, poptime,

Here's the ruling via our recruiting guide...contact can be made only after prospects JR yr in HS (13.1.1.1) which within reason means July 1 roughly...the point is this is how the NCAA works with their rules..their different for nearly everything...which is why when ESPN reports "South Carolina has infractions" look closely to see what they are. For instance an official visit is if the institution picks up any cost. So if i've got a local recruit on campus and I buy him 50 cent candy bar...he's now used an official visit...If I don't report that...it's a minor NCAA violation! The NCAA has more rules than you can imagine!

Ok, not to beat a dead horse, but now I'm convinced. My copy of "Guide for the College Bound Student Athlete" must be wrong. My son called another DIII coach last night who had shown some interest at a clinic we attended last month. My son started the conversation by re-introducing himself and saying "You said that if I hadn't heard from you in a week or two to call you, so that's what I'm doing.." The coach said he had every intention of calling but after checking my son's paperwork and intro letter he had sent a couple of months ago he realized my son was a junior and therefore couldn't be contacted. He was glad my son called him and told him to stay in touch and to let him know as soon as his junior year was complete so they could start the recruiting process in earnest. I never meant to doubt anyone who stated otherwise about DIII rules, but I had it right in front of me in black and white. Anyway, now I know. 'Course, my son is steamed at me for getting the rules screwed up, he was getting pretty discouraged that the phone wasn't ringing. So for all you juniors out there who are interested in certain schools, call them! They will pick up the phone and really want to hear from you. Don't wait. My son may not go to any of the schools whose coaches he's spoken to, but he's at least on their radar and that may have faded had he not called them. My son has only made two calls but he already feels more comfortable with it. He'll make more once his website and video are ready for "distribution".

Poptime,
believe me when I say...the ncaa has many rules that can be written in different ways...as I would say "subject to interpretation" I will say honest mistakes do happen, "whoops, didn't know you were a junior" I think most of us have done that a time or two...

Arizonared...

My son signed his NLI on Nov 9 with a D-II school. He was given only an athletic scholarship the academic scholarship was removed.

HighBalls...as stated in an earlier post...that was our experience with DII's also......

Congratulations to your son....and his family.....athletic or academic....the scholarships are helpful....but best of all....four more years of baseball...best wishes....and enjoy!

Poptime [QUOTE]Originally posted by PopTime:
My son told the coach that even though he's not allowed to make an official visit, being only a Jr., that we'd have no problem coming to the school unofficially for a "show-around" and possibly a work-out. QUOTE]

Didn't see this addressed in the threads but just know, tell your son.

There are no "official visits to DIII and as far as I know you still can't "workout" for anyone except JUCO

You can workout for Divison II programs provided that the players HS season is not going on

OK, here we go again. Page 28 of the NCAA's own Guide for the College Bound Student Athlete under the Summary of Recruiting Rules for DIII: "You may make unlimited number of unofficial visits anytime. You may make official visits starting the opening day of classes your senior year. You may make only one official visit per college". I'm throwing this piece of junk away.

I am under the impression that a DIII coach can contact you at ANY time.
I will research and update.

My son has already heard from two DIII coaches (on our dime) that DIII coaches can NOT telephone until after the junior year.

Then please explain the following from the NCAA Division III By-Laws:
NCAA Division III Manual

13.1.3 Telephone Calls to Prospective Student-Athletes
An institution may permit a student-athlete, a staff member, or a representative of athletics interests to telephone a prospect at the institution's expense at any time, provided the call is only for the purpose of recruitment and is with full knowledge of the athletics department (see Bylaw 13.02.3.1). Violations of this bylaw shall be considered institutional violations per Constitution 2.8.1; however, such violations shall not affect the prospective student-athlete's eligibility. (Revised: 1/10/91 effective 7/1/91, 1/10/05, 8/4/05)

Can't explain it jb. I'm beyond confused by it all.

mrmom,
official visits are when the school picks up the tab...that's it...whether it's D1, 2 or 3...if the school pays for a coke, official visit, hotel, transportation dinner at any level it makes it an official visit...

jbbaseball,
I'm not sure what your reading but as a DIII coach we are not supposed to make contact until after JR year, or July 1 thereabouts...I can have a player, student or someone else call but I cannot...again reference DIII recruiting guide.

There was one new rule last year that allowed one telephone call in March. We heard from a number of D1's - not sure if this applies to all levels. They were all bunched up - either wanted to be first or last - very few in the middle of the month. The timing also might have been tied to their travel during Spring Break in the middle weeks

Additional background info on my earlier post.
1) I went on the web, went to
http://www.ncaa.org/wps/portal
Then went to Athletics and Academics, Eligibility & Recruiting. Then I went to recruiting. From there, you go to Recruiting Resources and will see:
"Bylaw Article 13: NCAA Recruiting Rules".
There are separate documents for DI, DII and DIII. That is where I found the above mentioned information. (Previous post)
2) Last week, we received a phone call (message) from a DIII Head Coach in VA, asking us to call him. This was UNSOLICITED.
3) Finally, we enrolled our son in NCSA. I don't want to debate the pros/cons of NCSA on this thread. However, ALL of the information we have from NCSA confirms that DIII coaches are allowed to make calls at any time.

FYI, my son is a SOPHOMORE.

I wish I could explain the discrepencies that are being posted here, but I can't.

Based on all of the information I have available to me, I think it is acceptable for a DIII coach to telephone a prospective student-athlete at any time.