D1 Practice Schedule Hours

Welcome to college baseball!

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I assume this is normal?

Son has close to the same schedule at a D3....but it's optional

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When do they study?

All night long...better question is 'When do they sleep?'

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Originally posted by hokieone:
Welcome to college baseball!

Ditto!

I suspect that 3FG will be along with the exact rule for D1, but just fair warning, those rules usually apply only to when they are with the coaches either for instruction or field practice.

Serious program means serious time put in, no matter what the division.

Study time is whenever one is not in class, at the field, in the gym, or asleep.

Why are you asking?

Sounds pretty close to my son's schedule except they do get Mondays off from official practice and I think they lift 5 days/week. Most of the players willingly put in even more hours w/o the coaching staff.

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Originally posted by Hawk19:

quote:

I assume this is normal?

Son has close to the same schedule at a D3....but it's optional

optional yes, unless you want to actually play......

then not so much optional....

My son is a 2-way player. You may not want to hear his practice schedule.

Both his position and pitching coach always say he is missing something. It's difficult being in two place at once.

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Originally posted by Deadliest Catch:
Would like to hear about practice routines for D1 schools for fall. Son told us Monday his team doesn't have a day off for six weeks.

Lift and PT four mornings at 5:45am, practice starts 2:30 to 6/6:30 but it really starts at 1:30. Then weekends for 5/6 hours.

I assume this is normal? When do they study?

Not surprisingly, the commitment required to play College baseball surprises most parents and probably all high school athletes. The NCAA numbers reflect that college athletes actually fare BETTER than the general college body when it comes to academics. Can you say "Time Management?"

They will find a way if they love the sport enough. If not, they will join the "surprising" high number that opt out for a more leisurely college pace and or they discover every player out there is "suprisingly" good!

Enjoy the ride as you will hear a number of times if you visit this site often. Welcome!

Maybe the coach realizes that for the program to compete the players have to step it up. BIGTIME!

"Not surprisingly, the commitment required to play College baseball surprises most parents and probably all high school athletes. The NCAA numbers reflect that college athletes actually fare BETTER than the general college body when it comes to academics. Can you say "Time Management?"

They will find a way if they love the sport enough. If not, they will join the "surprising" high number that opt out for a more leisurely college pace and or they discover every player out there is "suprisingly" good!

Enjoy the ride as you will hear a number of times if you visit this site often. Welcome![/QUOTE]

The NCAA numbers are incredibly misleading. The claim that athletes have higher GPA'S then the student body as a whole does not attempt to compare the majors of the athletes to the rest of the student body. Take a look at, for example, Rice. For a school renown for engineering, engineering is significantly underrepresented on the baseball team.

Anyone who claims that the typical athlete can be a top student in a science/engineering/similar major at a top D1 baseball program is living in denial. No matter how well the baseball player budgets his time. I is possible - albeit difficult - to succeed in those majors at schools where baseball is not as high a priority.

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Take a look at, for example, Rice. For a school renown for engineering, engineering is significantly underrepresented on the baseball team.

Take a look at the general population at Rice and I'm sure the number of students in engineering is quite small.


Now it appears by looking at the OP's times, they are FAR exceeding the NCAA limits. And it is also against NCAA rules to not have days off. The NCAA requires student-athletes to have one day off a week (not exactly, but something along those lines). I also believe there is a daily limit as well...

Bulldog- There most certainly are restrictions, and very strict ones at that. However, these times that are reported are not "official" team practice times, I'd assume. Ie: A team might get Sundays off, but pitchers still need to get their work in and hitters still take swings. Everyone still lifts. It's just a matter of coaches being in attendance vs. not in attendance, and the documented standards that are set by the NCAA being documented in correlation by the coaches. You know how it goes...

As mentioned previously, and said beautifully...
Welcome to college baseball!

"Take a look at the general population at Rice and I'm sure the number of students in engineering is quite small. "


I think if you'll take a look that about one-third of the general population at Rice is majoring in engineering.

I believe most NAIA, DII, and DI programs are very much in line with what you're describing. Not much time to 'chill' whatsoever. And they learn very quickly that they can't stay up until 1 or 2am and still survive the 5:30 weightlifiting call. Bedtime becomes 9, MAYBE 10pm.........IF the homework is done!

I copied and pasted this from another thread:

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Don't play college baseball unless you absolutely LOVE the game. Being a collegiate student-athlete is like having two full-time jobs. I'll lay it out for you: Let's say that you take 15 credit hours, which is the average at my school. That means that you spend 15 hours per week in class. Professors suggest that you spend 2-3 hours studying for every one hour spent in class. Let's round that to a comfortable average of 2.5 hours per hour...or 37.5 hours. Add that to the previous total of 15 credit hours and that gives you 52.5 hours per week spent on academics. Well, that's a full-time job right there. On average, I'd estimate that I spend 4 hours a day, 6 days a week at practice or in the weight room (probably a bit less during the offseason, a bit more in-season). That's 24 hours a week. On top of that, athletics require you to attend meetings, lectures, study halls. Athletics require you to spend time worrying about the nutritional aspect of your life, worry about having proper training techniques in order to remain healthy. All these things combined translate to, let's say, another 15 hours a week. So that gives you a total of 39 hours. Add that to the previous academic total we found, and that's over 90 hours a week dedicated to your schoolwork and your baseball team. Everyday, every week, all year. If you feel that you aren't interested in putting in the required time to be a successful student and a successful athlete, then don't do it, because that's what it takes.

Depends on what you mean by a "typical athlete." It is possible to major in science and engineering at a "Top D1" school. But the kid has to be very bright and/or have an incredible work ethic.

Also depends on what you mean by a "top student." In most cases the grades of a science/engineering major will suffer to some degree because of baseball, no matter how bright or dedicated a student the kid is. To me, any kid that gets a degree while pursuing one of those majors is a top student, regardless of his grades.

Finally, I don't know of many schools where "baseball is not a priority." In most cases the DII's and III's will put in just as much work as the kids at the high level D1's.

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Originally posted by Goosegg:
Anyone who claims that the typical athlete can be a top student in a science/engineering/similar major at a top D1 baseball program is living in denial. No matter how well the baseball player budgets his time. I is possible - albeit difficult - to succeed in those majors at schools where baseball is not as high a priority.

I'm curious as to what a pitcher/player would do in a 5 hour practice? It seems excessively long to the point of diminishing returns.

There has to be an efficient way to trim it down to 3 hours.

This will vary a lot. That 5 hours may include dressing out, a team meeting, time in the training room, stretching, daily running, taking infield/outfield, pre-scrimmage BP, scrimmage, another brief meeting, showering, etc. Pitchers moreseo than position players may have more down time where they're not actually practicing, conditioning, throwing bullpens, etc. They may spend a lot of this time shagging balls in the outfield, charting pitches and running the radar gun during scrimmages, chasing foul balls during scrimmages, etc. Sometimes they hit fungos during BP, a "job" that they compete for at some schools. ;-) 5 hours can pass a lot quicker than you think.

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Originally posted by sportsdad&fan:
I'm curious as to what a pitcher/player would do in a 5 hour practice? It seems excessively long to the point of diminishing returns.

There has to be an efficient way to trim it down to 3 hours.

I was talking to Trevor Bauer after he had decided to go to UCLA but before he actually enrolled. He was very firm about majoring in mechanical engineering. The kid is brilliant but he wasn't able to stay in engineering. He didn't exactly switch to a cupcake major, but it is almost impossible to handle the labs along with the game, travel and practice schedule. I walked on in another sport and I doubt I could have made grades if I had done well enough to travel.

In his case I'm guessing he'll be OK financially though.

There are D1 schools where it is at least possible. UC Davis is an example and most likely the majority of the Ivies.

As an aside many of position players will also put bp time well beyond practice time.

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As an aside many of position players will also put bp time well beyond practice time.

At freshman parent orientation someone asked what type if 'crime' was common on campus....

One answer:

'baseball players jumping the fence to use the batting cages during off-hours'....

CADad is correct as Davis has a few eng students, as does Cal Poly. UCSB has one on the roster that says he is in engineering, but he has not been accepted into their eng program. (as of last year) The perennial conference leaders UCI and CSF have none.

The biggest problem eng and science students run into is lab time conflicts with afternoon practices. Some programs work around this, Stanford for example has kids going and coming from practice, most schools do not. Stanford of course is a very special case. Ivy’s have them, but they do not have the same demands put on their baseball programs either.

Make no mistake about this; big time D1 program coaches ARE PAID TO WIN. They don’t mind smart kids on their team, but they are not paid to help your son become a Dr, Eng, etc. I know this is kind of a D’Oh statement, but they much prefer future first round draft picks on their rosters.

JH’s post on the realities of college baseball is one of the best posts here are should be read by every potential college player and their parents.

In addition to this players or their parents who want their kids to go into the sciences or more challenging majors have to take this into account when looking at programs for fit. Also not to put down college coaches, but many will say they support difficult majors during the recruiting process, but the reality is most don’t once you are in the school. In the search process you need to do your due diligence and go find and actually talk to kids on the team who are in the major you or your son is interested in. While you are talking to them you can also find out if they are actually starting...(or playing much)

To prime9’s point on time management Coach Stotz says that the baseball players at Stanford come in to the school academically ranked in the bottom 15% of the student population and graduate in the upper 50%. FWIW I glanced at their roster and about 1/3 of them are in science or eng.

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Originally posted by sportsdad&fan:
I'm curious as to what a pitcher/player would do in a 5 hour practice? It seems excessively long to the point of diminishing returns.

There has to be an efficient way to trim it down to 3 hours.

Pitchers have more down time for sure, that's why they run alot.

Something that I have mentioned, DK was discouraged to take engineering big time while there were others on the team who were in engineering, their roles were much limited.
There is no way son could have played the level he did with the expectations placed upon him and been an engineering major at the same time.

Here's a little counter point to the five six hour practices per day..just to open up the discussion.

Let's take pitchers out of the core practice equation. What do pitchers do, run, throw, sag, hit fungoes and do a little fielding practice.

Most programs have two position related coaches (not counting vol assistants) for what 15/20 position players? What the hell can you do four/five hours per day (not counting scrimmages).

If a coaching staff can't run an organized and crisp practice in three hours they shouldn't be coaching.

Why do coaches spend hundreds of hours on conditioning, running players till their tonuges hang. What's the longest distance you ever or your kid ever ran on a baseball field? Quick burst/agility work yes. Most reasonably conditioned 19/20 year old athetes can handle the running rigors of a college or pro baseball game without training for a marathon.

Lots of focus on weight training -why? Is it going to turn your great glove, doubles hitting middle infielder into a power hitter? If the ball jumps off your bat, its going to jump off your bat no matter how many wieghts you lift. Most programs spend tons of hours lifting weights - that being the case, home runs in college should have been up or at least even with prior years despite the BCOR bat. From what I read power stats and averages were down, looks like the lifting really paid off?

How many meetings can you have? Its not that complicated of a game.

What's the benefit of getting your player up at 5 am, working them out until half hour before class, they drag their butts thru class, grab a quick lunch before its on to practice (we all know its an hour earlier than scheduled and you will probably go over posted quitting time). Run to get something to eat and on to study hall (use that term loosley) till ten. Lets see, hard to get proper nutrition, probably don't sleep well worrying about missing 6 am practice, no time for quality study..its not study hall from what I am told, body run down so prone to getting sick or injured, struggle to get grades so you can play.

If your a player, your a player. Yes you need to practice and train but you don't need to do it 50/60 hours a week when you also have a goal to get your education. If you need 50/60 hours per week to make your players/team better you probably did a real bad job of recruiting.

Take down every reference to Student-Athlete on the web sites, they are athletes..do most coaches really care about their education or is their concern keeping them eligible so they can win games.

You and the Deadliest Catch need to keep the following in mind, since it sounds as if they both may be encountering the same issues.

When you play in a power baseball conference, and your program is at the bottom of the heap, you better practice TWICE as long as the ones at the middle or the top. I would be doing the same thing if I were the coach. Conditioning and conditioning and more conditioning is what prevents injuries. The best programs with the least injuries have the most intense workout and conditioning programs. Has nothing to do with hitting the ball farther, that's a skill that has nothing to do with how big you are or are not. That's where the hours and hours of practice come in.

Some people think that once a player gets to college, or to pro, they don't have to work on the basics, that is so untrue. These days every game counts in college baseball, you have to be at your best game from day one.

Education is most important, but the player (and his folks) by now ought to know what it takes to play against some of the best teams in the country, and in most good programs baseball IS important. That sometimes means a lot more than 3 hours a day.

There is always the option of going to a program where baseball isn't as important or the player has the option to leave the program. What you describe is NOT unusual. For freshman it's an adjustment, for sophmores and up, it should be routine. If you are an uppperclassman in study hall, perhaps the major is too difficult considering the circumstances of bb being so important, so something may have to give (take less credits and go to summer school).

I have always stated that top level D1 baseball IS NOT for every player. Now I will add that top level baseball in any division is not for everyone.


College baseball in a conference such as the ACC (or other top conferences and schools in any division) is about survival of the fittest, for players as well as for the entire team and the coach, who has to win to keep his job. You can't recruit well if you have a very poor losing record, not only against those in your conference but other programs.

Maybe you have brought up a good point, perhaps the coach did a poor job of recruiting, or maybe, just maybe, he was led to believe by the player committing that he was willing to do what it would take to play college baseball WHILE getting his education.



If the player and his folks are surprised by all of this, they didn't do their homework. I strongly suggest JH's post on the realities of college baseball.

I love the response. By the way the comments are mine to raise different points of view. They are not related to anything I have heard from my son. When he made his decision he understood it was a job and what was required of him. In fact the little time we talk its about how you felling, hows school going.

I used to subscribe to the theory you have to work more to get better or my in field (I have been an advisor to business owners for close to 30 years) to make your business better. But through the years I found that was not the case. I have seen many hard working people lose their business, I'm talking 100 plus hours per week. The most succesful business owners I deal with have a plan that focuses energy and assets on the areas that will make them successful and they still have time to enjoy their families and hobbies etc. Their lives are balanced, they recharge their energy on a consistent basis and they have fun. 100 hours per week of work does not quarantee success.

Lifting, training, fundamentals etc I understand and agree. I'm just challengeing the thought process that it takes 60 plus hours per week. I think if can be done within NCAA hours guidelines (most violate), give the players a reasonable time to study, get proper rest and nutrition, enjoy "a little college life" and still accomplish team goals.

Just one guys opinion.

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Its not that complicated of a game

NH, if this is your starting and reference point, I would propose it isn't accurate when it comes to the way the game is played in college.
Not only do college coaches spend far more hours than their players, they start with ideas just like you expressed and must educate and teach into and against them.
Remember, these coaches are not starting with 35 to 40 players all headed the same direction. Some think they know everything, and might, but most come with one mindset and need coaching to get 180 degrees opposite for that player to have any chance of being successful.
And then there is the mental and physical strength to compete, along with the speed and mental discipline to excel.
JMO, but you are not giving your son, his teammates and his college coaches anywhere near the credit needed to compete in DI baseball.
To start and say the game just isn't that difficult: I think you might be referencing the game you saw in high school,
The game in college and Milb...not the same, mentally or physically, in any way.

quote:

Originally posted by nhmonty:
Here's a little counter point to the five six hour practices per day..just to open up the discussion.

Let's take pitchers out of the core practice equation. What do pitchers do, run, throw, sag, hit fungoes and do a little fielding practice.

Most programs have two position related coaches (not counting vol assistants) for what 15/20 position players? What the hell can you do four/five hours per day (not counting scrimmages).

If a coaching staff can't run an organized and crisp practice in three hours they shouldn't be coaching.

Why do coaches spend hundreds of hours on conditioning, running players till their tonuges hang. What's the longest distance you ever or your kid ever ran on a baseball field? Quick burst/agility work yes. Most reasonably conditioned 19/20 year old athetes can handle the running rigors of a college or pro baseball game without training for a marathon.

Lots of focus on weight training -why? Is it going to turn your great glove, doubles hitting middle infielder into a power hitter? If the ball jumps off your bat, its going to jump off your bat no matter how many wieghts you lift. Most programs spend tons of hours lifting weights - that being the case, home runs in college should have been up or at least even with prior years despite the BCOR bat. From what I read power stats and averages were down, looks like the lifting really paid off?

How many meetings can you have? Its not that complicated of a game.

What's the benefit of getting your player up at 5 am, working them out until half hour before class, they drag their butts thru class, grab a quick lunch before its on to practice (we all know its an hour earlier than scheduled and you will probably go over posted quitting time). Run to get something to eat and on to study hall (use that term loosley) till ten. Lets see, hard to get proper nutrition, probably don't sleep well worrying about missing 6 am practice, no time for quality study..its not study hall from what I am told, body run down so prone to getting sick or injured, struggle to get grades so you can play.

If your a player, your a player. Yes you need to practice and train but you don't need to do it 50/60 hours a week when you also have a goal to get your education. If you need 50/60 hours per week to make your players/team better you probably did a real bad job of recruiting.

Take down every reference to Student-Athlete on the web sites, they are athletes..do most coaches really care about their education or is their concern keeping them eligible so they can win games.

DING DING DING WINNER WINNER WINNER. ON EVERY POINT

nhmonty- I am actually going to answer your question in a bit of a different way. I apologize if it sounds like I am trying to convey my point in a roundabout way.

I agree with you on most of your accounts.

I agree that the work that is put in during those extended practice hours is very monotonous and often times is not beneficial to the player.

I agree that it is difficult to maintain proper nutritional habits throughout the day.

I agree that the work that players do in early morning sessions can be done at different times of the day.

I agree that study halls are often times a loose term and are not structured to be as effective as they could be.

I agree that often times weight training takes precedence over other aspects of the game that should have some amount of focus.

Now to hit all of these issues one-by one.

The extended practice hours that you touched on, and exist all throughout college baseball, are very important to a college program. A perfect example of this was on display two weeks ago, when Jason Armstrong came onto the High School Baseball Web Radio Show. Jason Armstrong is the hitting coach for UC Davis, a former DIII All-American and Blue Jays farmhand. He is also the son of infielddad. Jason went into detail about the importance of "early work"...one on one sessions that enable a player to maximize his skill set in a way that will provide him with the greatest levels of success come game time. So my response to someone who states that the extended hours are a waste of time because the players are not focused on the right things is this: They should be focusing on the right things. Baseball players that play at this level know the difference between right and wrong, and they know what they need to work on. Repetition is never a bad thing in order to perfect your craft, and harnessing your energy in the allotted amount of time you have into your craft will enable you to have a better chance to perfect it. The length of time is not the issue, it is how that time is used.

The eating habits have been, and will always be, a tough obstacle to overcome. However, every school that I have been to has dining hall(s) that provide ample amounts of healthy food options that are conducive to athletes. At my school, the food services department sends a consultant to the SAAC meetings once a month to go over the food options that we'd prefer as athletes. The school also has nutritionists on hand, many of them possessing doctorates in the topic, and will assist in pointing a kid in the right direction if needed. An 18 year old freshman probably doesn't really know how to eat properly to keep his body going. All he needs to be is proactive in reaching out for the assistance, because as far as I know it is there at every college. Another point about meals is this: dinner doesn't need to be social. I've seen people spend an hour and a half in the dining hall just sitting around hanging out and talking. Plain and simple, it doesn't take that long to eat. If you have other responsibilities in your life, they need to take precedence over that social time during a meal.

I HATE the morning. Hate it. Can't stand it. I am miserable when I wake up in the morning...and I'm sure my mom and dad and sister and girlfriend would be more than happy to attest to that statement. It is the absolute worst feeling in the world to wake up before sunrise, head to the locker room and get dressed knowing that you're about to be pushed and screamed at for several hours...BEFORE your day even begins. It's not fun, it never has been and it probably never will be. But I can tell you this: I've had 6 AM strength and conditioning sessions, where I lifted more weight than I thought I could and ran further than I thought I could and did more plyometric circuits than I thought I could. I was sweating, bleeding, and in pain. I was being screamed at, being reprimanded and disciplined. And you know what? I did it. I did what I set out to do, and I did it to the best of my abilities. Knowing that I hate the morning and I just completed a brutal workout session before the sun came up was a self-fulfilling accomplishment that I was truly proud of. And come a conference game in May, when I'm on the mound in the 9th inning with the bases loaded and my team up by one...well that's just fun. Because that misery that I felt in the morning workout was overcome by my self-determination. My mental toughness was already tested to its limits, so the game is just a game.

Study halls are what students make them out to be. I'm not going to sit here and preach something that is untrue because I'm probably the biggest culprit of procrastination you've ever seen. I have a Facebook, a Twitter, a Smartphone. I play Words With Friends and Angry Birds. I have a social life and I like hanging out with friends and having a good time. Study hall hours are designated slots of time where athletes come together and study with the resources availed to them. Could the system be better structured? Yes, probably. But then again, there have been plenty of student-athletes that have graduated from college with high honors. They figured out how to get it done, somehow. Time management is a skill that is, in my opinion, the absolute single most important aspect to having success in college...athlete or not. Study hall hours just falls into that category.

I would suggest not undermining the importance of weight training. I've read all the articles about Tim Lincecum and Trevor Bauer also...about how they don't lift weights and all that jazz. But what those articles fail to mention is that the "alternative exercises" (a term that is thrown around very loosely in my opinion) strengthen their muscles as well, and those "alternative exercises" are, in fact, using weight resistance to do this. Weight training is CRUCIAL in the development of an athlete. The on-field aspects are obviously important...no one questions that. But in the end, weight training is one facet of the game that factors into the scenario.

I respect the opinions you've displayed and do agree with some of what you said. But the time spent in practice is a necessity in order to develop a successful program. I am glad to hear that your son knew about all this prior to entering college...because many players don't. And to think about all of this from another perspective...I haven't any direct experience with this yet, but I rest assured knowing that employers in the "real world" know about many of these factors and take them into account. Being a collegiate student-athlete is a lifestyle and a choice. And in the end, juggling the difficult tasks that you outlined above, in my opinion, make you a better person.


On a completely separate note, does your son go to USA Training Center in Portsmouth?

quote:

Originally posted by nhmonty:
Here's a little counter point to the five six hour practices per day..just to open up the discussion.


If a coaching staff can't run an organized and crisp practice in three hours they shouldn't be coaching.

While you might be right the question could also be asked, are they doing enough.

What comes to my mind is a player most of us know, former UM player Yonder Alonso. Needless to say Miami has one of the top and respected baseball programs in the country. As a result Yonder thought he was busting his rear doing everything he needed to reach the next level. That of course was before he met A-Rod who decided to mentor Yonder, and the two started doing exactly the same workouts. It was very apparent to Yonder that he needed to exceed what UM was doing with their players if he wanted to emulate A-Rod.

So while some programs might be perceived as over doing it, for those kids wanting to make it to the next level, it might not be enough despite what some may think.

I appreciate all the views, thanks for the comments.

Infielddad,

Regarding your High School reference, I did play four years at D2 school a million years ago. I also was an assistant at D1 school for two years so I do understand what it takes to compete.

I have a ton of respect for the all players and coaches and the time they put in. All I am doing is challenging the process to get to the goal. I can't help myself that's what I do for a living. By the way these are my opinions, my son doesn't share them. This summer he lifted five days a week and then played in the NECBL at night (until he got mono). He doesn't complain about the work other then being tired and wishing he has more free time - they all do I'm sure.

I'm thinking like a parent, that's what I am. I see things a bit differently then he does. He was good student in HS but he never would have been accepted to his school without baseball. To me that's a gift that has to be taken advanatage of - but you need some time to accomplish this.

My kid thinks he is majoring in baseball, school is just something he has to do. He wants the chance to play pro ball (who knows if he is good enough) and he is doing what he feels he has to get into that position. I know that if he reaches this goal it can be taken away from him in a second. His education can never he taken away from him, its a life long asset.

To me there has to be a better way for the team/players reaching their baseball goals, have adequate time for study, a little time to enjoy college life, i.e going to a few football games etc. Maybe there isn't that's why I posted the question to this discussion board.

Here is an example and I don't want anyone to think I am being critical of the coaches, its the process I am challenging. My son's team hired a new coach at the end of June of 2009. He didn't have time to recruit anyone, in fact he lost players from the team and had to fill in with club players. That team won five conference games. Last year he has his first recruiting class. I have to believe they worked as hard as any team in their conference, in fact the coach stated they have to work harder than other teams because they were not as good (yet). The players and coaches busted their butts, practice time, physical training etc. They won the same amount of conference games as the year before. They may have won a few more non-conference games but their overall record was marginally better if at all.

Look it all boils down to talent and experience, you can put in hundreds of hours and if you don't have the talent you aren't going to win. The question is does putting in hours make them that much better or if you structure a process that so difficult that it puts undue physical and mental duress on a player that it hurts their performance. I don't have that answer.

JH

Yes my son played for Dave Hoyt and Mavericks and he still goes to USA Training every day when he is home on vacation.

quote:

Originally posted by nhmonty:
I'm thinking like a parent, that's what I am. I see things a bit differently then he does. He was good student in HS but he never would have been accepted to his school without baseball. To me that's a gift that has to be taken advanatage of - but you need some time to accomplish this.

This is a very nice thread with lots of inputs and good arguments. Finding the right fit is harder than we think. We are currently in the process with my senior son and he realizes that his chance to get accepted to the college ( at this time , he's leaning to get a 4yr degree in an academic college) of his liking depends on baseball. I am glad he has developed good work ethics and used to early morning weightlifting in his HS in the off season although it is only 3x/week as compared to college.

Any which way, each and every program will tackle education and baseball differently. It is a talk that needs to be discussed with the Head coach during official/unofficial visits.

NHMonty...Good luck to your son this year!
IFD/JH...nice arguments.
Hawk19...How's Junior liking it over there in Sunny SCIAC! We'll be visiting SoCal very soon.

quote:

Look it all boils down to talent and experience, you can put in hundreds of hours and if you don't have the talent you aren't going to win. The question is does putting in hours make them that much better or if you structure a process that so difficult that it puts undue physical and mental duress on a player that it hurts their performance.

NH, there cannot be more important or relevant questions to be asked/distinctions to be made than those posed in the second part of the quote above.
I can certainly understand your asking it with the new, and young, coaching staff where your son attends. Do they know of that distinction and do they have the ability to truly know when to stop and when to put the foot on the accelerator?
Those are powerful,insightful observations which are truly "the" challenge to a college baseball coaching staff.
I also think it is important to comment on your first observation about it all being about "talent and experience."
Taking the thought about "talent and experience," I think there is one critical aspect missing...leadership.
Having watched and talked college baseball since 1999, my view, influenced by a number of college coaches, is some of the most talented teams fail, some of lesser talented teams excel, and those distinctions don't come from talent or experience, they come from leadership.
There are times when "experience" can be the antithesis of "leadership." It can be almost "toxic" to a team. As much as a "team" needs experience, a successful team must have "leadership" and be lead/challenged and focused by those who provide "leadership" and experience.
Let's face it, there are plenty of "attitudes" with 35 young men aged 18-23.
Coaches are working to "shape" and "reshape" attitudes; they are looking to challenge many players to maximize their talent when the player thinks he is already there, but isn't touching where he should/needs to be.
Candidly, many coaches are working with a group of players where some don't want to be there, some don't want to be challenged, some are lazy, some would rather party, some have major personal issues impacting them and some are like your son: possessed with baseball and wanting to succeed to the next level.
From that group, even if they have talent, experience which is "toxic" will often result in failure. Lesser experience, but better leadership almost always results in a better result, in the experiences I have observed.
One thing to which I don't relate is the routine of 5-6 hour practices. Other than make ups on weekends due to rain outs, our son's program has practices which last 3 hours on the field. The practices and every aspect of each practice is timed to the second. The focus is execution at the highest level possible, for every minute of the 3 hours.
Necessarily, much of the skill work/development for hitting/fielding for individual players occurs in early work and/or after practice. As JH pointed out, for our son as a player and now as a coach, early work was/is his obsession. Early work made him a player capable of being drafted, in his mind.
When he became a professional player but not getting playing time, that early work attitude and effort saved him. It kept him sharp so that when his chance finally came, he had 10 hits over a 3 game series, played well in the field, and never looked back. For our son as a coach, as he told JH and CD in his Lets Talk Baseball interview, he wants his early work sessions with his players to provide each one of them with same level of skill development and the same baseball opportunity his early work provided to him as a player.
To address your comments on strength and conditioning, my view is you may not really appreciate and visualize the true value in a college experience. The importance of it, and why coaching staffs and strength and conditioning coaches are so focused on it, becomes obvious when you get to Milb. That is not to say its value cannot be seen in college. As I and CD have posted before, Brian Gabriel, now at Coastal Carolina, is remarkable in his baseball specific strength and conditioning program. As a parent/fan or player, the results in better play were/are readily visualized when one sees players before they work with Brian as contrasted with the same players after 3-4 months of working with Brian.
From a baseball perspective, there is nothing quite as amazing as the experience of sitting in a Milb facility in Spring training and watching players and games from low A to AAA. There you can vividly see the drastic distinctions in the skills, talent, power, strength and speed with which the game is played. For me at least, I could truly visualize why our son worked so very hard in the gym, because I could see how fast, strong and powerful people were who were playing at levels above him.
This of course is superimposed on the physical and mental grind baseball takes on the human body over the course of a college season.
JH did a very nice job of addressing how this work creates better mental ability and stamina to get the job done, when it needs to be done on the field in competition. Physically, better strength and conditioning not only brings a better level of performance, it is associated with performing better over a long grinding season and recovering quicker when injury/illness occur.
With all of this said, when does all this combine with leadership, or lack of leadership, to create a peak so players/teams perform at their optimum as contrasted with a level of mental and physical fatigue leading to failure: that is why programs win or lose, and coaches get promoted or fired. I don't think there is any bright line.
As with any business, coaches have to make those judgments. Over time(usually a short time of 2-4 seasons), they become accountable to an AD if they don't make the right ones.

JH,

Your last post was a Hall of Famer...

Good job

Really interesting thread from some very knowledgeable people.

In an earlier post on this thread, someone stated that many D3 programs work hours as hard and long as these examples indicative of top D1 programs. The question I throw out is whether this is at cross-purposes to the concept of NCAA Division 3 Athletics.

I’m not talking about the player who is committed to getting to professional ball, or who looks to get to Omaha, or even the player who desires a D1-like experience at a D3 school.

I’m addressing the solid, but not exceptional athlete playing varsity athletics, and contributing, at a small D3 school. I think this type of player really needs to ask the right questions during the recruiting/college search process – if you are seeking more balance.

Possibly I’m being naïve or I’m off-base, but I believe the spirit of NCAA D3 varsity athletics is structured to place extra weighting to the concept of academic, athletic and social balance? That doesn’t mean its athletics for guys who are “soft”, but I think it means it should be significantly different from playing in the Pac 12 or SEC or actually any D1 conference.

Certainly, you practice hard, condition hard and play to win, but it is conducted in a manner that promotes increased emphasis on a balanced college experience in comparison to Division 1 and 2. Aside from academic growth, the college experience is to be a time of social expansion, personal growth, maturation and experimentation.

As a somewhat related story, in the summer of 2010 my son attended a Headfirst showcase. Throughout the first day there were several “breakout sessions” where the Headfirst directors presented information and provided advice to the kids and the parents. Some of the most powerful and lasting advice came from a former pitcher from Duke who stated his greatest regret from his entire college experience was that he spent four years at one of the world’s finest universities – one that is loaded with a remarkable student body of future artists, scientists, writers, business people, lawyers, doctors, etc. etc. - and he did not make meaningful, life-lasting relationships with any of them, as he was so focused within the “bubble” of the team. He told these young men, “What a waste - whatever path you take in college and baseball, don’t let that happen to you.”

Ryanrod23 wrote:

quote:

Hawk19...How's Junior liking it over there in Sunny SCIAC! We'll be visiting SoCal very soon.

He seems to be making the adjustment, working hard and having a good time. I think he's very happy with his decision.

What schools are you considering in SoCal?

quote:

Originally posted by like2rake:
In an earlier post on this thread, someone stated that many D3 programs work hours as hard and long as these examples indicative of top D1 programs. The question I throw out is whether this is at cross-purposes to the concept of NCAA Division 3 Athletics.

This is undoubtedly true at some DIII's. But it depends on why the school is DIII and why the kid is there. Not all DIII's are high level academic schools. Some small school are just a microcosm of the larger ones. No reason to expect baseball there to be any different.

And it depends on why the kid is there. Lets face it, even at a DIII school many, if not most, kids are there to play baseball first and get an education second.

Baseball players and coaches are equally competitive regardless of the size of the school. Wherever you go, the goal is the same, win. That's just human nature.

I agree, in an ideal world education should come first at ALL schools. But sports will always be in conflict with education. If you want less than the full college baseball experience you may want to play club baseball.

quote:

Some of the most powerful and lasting advice came from a former pitcher from Duke who stated his greatest regret from his entire college experience was that he spent four years at one of the world’s finest universities – one that is loaded with a remarkable student body of future artists, scientists, writers, business people, lawyers, doctors, etc. etc. - and he did not make meaningful, life-lasting relationships with any of them, as he was so focused within the “bubble” of the team. He told these young men, “What a waste - whatever path you take in college and baseball, don’t let that happen to you.”

Yeah, my son said basically the same thing about the "bubble of the girlfriend." :-) He missed out on most of the freshman college experience because of baseball AND because he went to school with a girlfriend in tow.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MTH: This is undoubtedly true at some DIII's. But it depends on why the school is DIII and why the kid is there. Not all DIII's are high level academic schools. Some small school are just a microcosm of the larger ones. No reason to expect baseball there to be any different.)

I agree, my son's college search was restricted to the higher end of the academic spectrum, so that certainly colors my viewpoint.

(If you want less than the full college baseball experience you may want to play club baseball.)

I'm not saying a kid doesn't want the "full college baseball experience" - my position is questioning whether "the full college baseball experience" at a D3 should have significant differences from "the full college baseball experience" at D1. I know there are many D3 schools that offer this distinction, and many that don't, so a kid needs to understand what he wants, and search for "the fit"

This is a great thread.

This is a generalization, but DIII’s tend to be high academic schools. About 25% of these schools take their baseball very seriously and are typically the top ranked schools year in and year out.

I will give you the perspective of the program my freshmen son is in, which is a very successful DIII that is run much like a DI, with a few twists. It is also a high academic institution and he is an engineering student. A couple of observations that have struck me over the past 6 weeks.

There is no study hall. The school has an overall philosophy of empowering the students and giving them all of the resources they need for their success including easy access to tutors, etc. All professors must have open office hours and they all teach their classes (no TA’s). This carries over into the baseball program, where the coach expects the kids to get things done in the classroom on their own. The resources are there and available and the consequences are placed on the player. This is probably the nature of it being a high academic institution, (and the kids there) and it is the one major difference that I see between some of the other D1 programs my son’s friends are in. (where they seem to be force feeding academics on the team)

The coach knows he will be having some kids miss part of team practices due to labs, etc. All he insists upon is communication with him. They lay out what is required and it is up to the player to communicate when he cannot make it to a practice. They do make sure the player has the resources available to him on his schedule if he does miss.

They put tremendous focus on strength and conditioning in the fall. Getting bigger stronger faster makes the team more powerful and minimizes injuries during the season. This takes precedence over team baseball activities right now. They have a saying that is “success in the season happens in the fall”. There are more meetings right now than full practices. Strength and conditioning, hitters, pitchers all meet weekly and players are hitting and throwing daily. One, maybe two full captain practices a week. I guess that it is no accident that infielddads son has the same philosophy, as he came out of this program.

One other thing that struck me was that he gives the players a couple of weeks to settle in before they start to crank up the baseball activities. I met with him when we dropped my son off and I got the feeling that there is a method to his madness and that he did not want to get the kids too fired up too early. The nature is for kids to come in all fired up, and he seemed to be tempering this a bit. He knows it is a long season does not want them to peak in December, but wants them peaking in March.

They will start full fall practices in a few weeks that will go through Thanksgiving, and part of this will be team strength and conditioning competitions, which make the strength and conditioning even more intense, and help build up the competitive juices in the team as well as build team chemistry. They then go into a full fall very competitive intersquad world series. This will give the coaches a good look at all of the kids, what they have as far as a team, and what they will need to work on come full practices in January.

As near as I can tell he is putting in the same time as his D1 friends, just more tailored to his schedule. He is up running sprints and some pylo stuff at 8ish in the morning, gets a shower and eats. He has classes during the day and he mixes in weight training, throwing, and hitting throughout the day. Once or twice a week he has a late captains practice. He is typically back in his room around 7ish and studies until 11-12, to bed and back at it in the morning. (not 6AM at least for him :0 JH)

Like2rake: They encourage (actually insist) on the team to supporting other sports programs right now and getting out in the community. Volleyball and s****r are in season and the team provides manpower to the volleyball program for their two home tournaments, and a bunch of the players are going to the s****r game tonight. The school and the program also focus on community outreach and the team supports several fall community events. As near as I can tell my son has made as many friends outside of the baseball team as he has within it. He has purchased cowboy boots and other Texan hardware and gets out at least one night on the weekend. I can guarantee you his is not out Texas two stepping with the baseball team! (seems to be a high concentration of the women’s volleyball and s****r players ..….hmmmm…..this “community” support seems to have some side benefits)

The team typically ends up playing nearly as many games as D1’s since they generally go to the playoffs and they pick up the additional games during the Regionals. (excluding the D1 World Series teams of course)

For him at least he seems to have found a good competitive balance between academics and baseball.

quote:

In an earlier post on this thread, someone stated that many D3 programs work hours as hard and long as these examples indicative of top D1 programs. The question I throw out is whether this is at cross-purposes to the concept of NCAA Division 3 Athletics.

I’m not talking about the player who is committed to getting to professional ball, or who looks to get to Omaha, or even the player who desires a D1-like experience at a D3 school.

Interesting questions.
Our son played at a nationally ranked DIII, which also was demanding and selective academically.
He returned and coached there and is now coaching at a DI which is also academically demanding.
While I have not talked with him about this specific issue, I can relate some impressions.
The first impression would be the need to separate the Fall/Winter and Spring.
During the Spring and the actual baseball season, there really is not much difference in the process from DI to DIII.
While a DIII plays less games by a number of 6 to 20 or more(depending on post season/weather in some areas), many DIII's are finished with school by late April/early May. Thus, the games are played within a compressed school schedule, especially in the South and West DIII's.
In the North, the games are compressed into a very short baseball season, beginning in March and ending in mid May, absent post season considerations.
While I do think DI's would be slightly more demanding, and I guess limiting, in the overall, the difference is marginal, in my view.
Baseball, in season, for DI and DIII is really challenging to be doing much else and succeeding in everything.
For our son, the classroom accountability at his DIII was/is different/more demanding than the actual classroom attendance/accountability at the DI, overall. The class size was about 12-14 students, role was taken, attendance was part of the grade, and participation/being prepared for every class was also part of the grade. At a larger UC DI, the ultimate classroom success requirement/demands are similar but the process can be less rigorous and precise because the class sizes can often, especially during the 1st two years, be larger and the classroom demands on attendance participation somewhat less.
Where there is no real difference are majors like engineering. In season, DI and DIII are tough. To do a major like engineering requires a coaching staff which supports the student part of student-athlete..
The bottom line is during baseball season, it is a tough deal to experience too much outside of baseball and education and be successful in each.
During the Fall/Winter is where I believe the DIII experience can and often is much different, and more expansive, in terms of being part of the larger educational/social/interactive process within the college dynamic.
For some DIII's, there is no Fall ball. Where there is, it is much more constricted in days per week and total time than the DI schedule.
If one examines the difference and distinctions in student life at a DI and DIII, the period from August/September when school starts until the first official day of Spring practice is where I believe the answer to the questions posed can often be found.