BOF, your description sounds to me like a situation where the heavy D1-like work load is handled in a perfect way by the coaching staff and institution. Communication, flexibility, personal responsibility.
Also, by the way, the warning given by the Duke player regarding staying "in the bubble" of the team to me was/can be directed to any college student, not just an athlete. It could just as easily be "don't get caught locked in the bubble of the music department."
Infielddad - Thank you for your lengthy post, I think you nailed it, relative to the distinctions between offseason activities. Another distinction, at least in my son's league - there are no mid-week games during regular season, only Saturday and Sunday.
quote:As a somewhat related story, in the summer of 2010 my son attended a Headfirst showcase. Throughout the first day there were several “breakout sessions” where the Headfirst directors presented information and provided advice to the kids and the parents. Some of the most powerful and lasting advice came from a former pitcher from Duke who stated his greatest regret from his entire college experience was that he spent four years at one of the world’s finest universities – one that is loaded with a remarkable student body of future artists, scientists, writers, business people, lawyers, doctors, etc. etc. - and he did not make meaningful, life-lasting relationships with any of them, as he was so focused within the “bubble” of the team. He told these young men, “What a waste - whatever path you take in college and baseball, don’t let that happen to you.”
This was the point I was trying to get accross.
I hope your sons had or will have great experiences in college playing baseball. I am hoping the same for my son. The last thing I want to hear from him in five/ten years is a comment like the quote above.
Most say that's the price you pay for being a college athlete, you don't like it play club ball. I say that's a bunch of BS. Even if you tip the scales of time largely in favor of the sport, you can have a reasonably balanced athlete who will probably perform better.
I have to beleive players already understand you pay a price for obtaining the privilege of being a college athlete. I'll go out on the limb and say the vast majority would put in extra work if they had more free time. When you do it on your own its no longer an obligation, its a choice and there is a huge difference. If I'm wrong then the coach obvioulsy recuited the wrong player.
quote:Originally posted by nhmonty:
In fact the little time we talk its about how you felling, hows school going.
If you don't talk much where is the info coming from that you have posted in your posts? If what you are stating is not from your son where is it coming from? If these are your thoughts, is this about you or your son?
JH's post is priceless.
You mentioned that your son would like to play at the pro level one day, do you realize that what he is doing now may be an important factor in that process. What do you think that players do in spring training? Up at dawn and on the field until 4pm for weeks on end with no days off. What do you think they do in season? Your life is baseball for 6 months (not including those 1 or 2 months in spring training), then you get a few weeks off and then head to winter ball. If you don't go play in fall/winter, in a few short weeks you have to hit the gym or begin throwing again, and many players have to work in off season also.
What you post is not unfamiliar to me or probably to others. If you asked my player he would probably tell you that if it weren't for all of "those" hours put in, he wouldn't be playing beyond college. And as an individual, it made him responsible. DK may have missed out on some stuff, but he has great memories.
FWIW, some of his teammates would sneak down to the batting cages at 3am for extra practice, talk about baseball rats!
Personally, I think that many coaches may require a lot more from players than actually is required, but the wise coach knows that more time in the gym and in practice means less time to get in trouble.
NHMonty,
For some reason, you reminded me of an old joke.
Q. What's the definition of a business consultant?
A. Someone who can tell you fifty ways to make love but can't get a date.
On the one hand, I agree with you that in nearly every occupation, there are lots of people who would rather work than think and who put in lots of hours that are either counter-productive or could be avoided through better planning and organization. The correlation between effort and results is often imperfect. Baseball is probably no different.
On the other hand, in nearly every field of endeavor, true greatness is usually reserved to those who combine both rare talent/genius and exceptional dedication. I suspect the same is often true in baseball.
If so, extraordinary time/effort (wisely invested) is almost certainly worthwhile for the very few college players who have MLB talent just as it is almost certainly wasted on players whose natural ceiling is to be marginal college players. However, it remains an open question how much value the extra work returns to the "average" major conference player on your son's team. I don't know the answer to that question, and your discussion doesn't give me confidence in your dogmatic answer.
If you're going to convince me that the general conditioning and practice regime of major conference baseball programs is as grossly inefficient and misdirected as you claim, it might help if you could name even one school that is succeeding at that level without putting in so much work.
The example you gave at your son's school doesn't answer the mail. You compared two seasons under a new coach. In season one, the coach had one group of players, an intense program, and unsatisfactory results. In season two, you had a lot of player turnover, a similarly intense program, and similarly unsatisfactory results. Intensity of the conditioning program doesn't look like the independent variable.
For some reason, you reminded me of an old joke.
Q. What's the definition of a business consultant?
A. Someone who can tell you fifty ways to make love but can't get a date.
On the one hand, I agree with you that in nearly every occupation, there are lots of people who would rather work than think and who put in lots of hours that are either counter-productive or could be avoided through better planning and organization. The correlation between effort and results is often imperfect. Baseball is probably no different.
On the other hand, in nearly every field of endeavor, true greatness is usually reserved to those who combine both rare talent/genius and exceptional dedication. I suspect the same is often true in baseball.
If so, extraordinary time/effort (wisely invested) is almost certainly worthwhile for the very few college players who have MLB talent just as it is almost certainly wasted on players whose natural ceiling is to be marginal college players. However, it remains an open question how much value the extra work returns to the "average" major conference player on your son's team. I don't know the answer to that question, and your discussion doesn't give me confidence in your dogmatic answer.
If you're going to convince me that the general conditioning and practice regime of major conference baseball programs is as grossly inefficient and misdirected as you claim, it might help if you could name even one school that is succeeding at that level without putting in so much work.
The example you gave at your son's school doesn't answer the mail. You compared two seasons under a new coach. In season one, the coach had one group of players, an intense program, and unsatisfactory results. In season two, you had a lot of player turnover, a similarly intense program, and similarly unsatisfactory results. Intensity of the conditioning program doesn't look like the independent variable.
Yes there are long practice hours, many hours in the cages, hours studying etc, etc etc.
And yet my son as a senior has had a fantastic time in college and playing a sport he loves. Don't think he would have changed a thing. He's traveled all over the US,including Hawaii. He's met amazing people in college- some are athletes, some are just regular students. His campus is small enough that we see some of his professors and the AD at home games. The team does community service every year, working with handicapped children. He has met wonderful host families from summer ball that treated him like one of their own children. His teammates that graduated the last few years have gotten jobs through campus job fairs with companies that specifically recruit athletes.
I could go on and on with the benefits of being a college athlete. Because of being an athlete my son has had a much richer college experience than many kids we know. I don't think he would have been as involved in the campus life if he didn't play college baseball.
Bottom line, he wouldn't change much about his college experience, especially the long hours he puts in for baseball.
And yet my son as a senior has had a fantastic time in college and playing a sport he loves. Don't think he would have changed a thing. He's traveled all over the US,including Hawaii. He's met amazing people in college- some are athletes, some are just regular students. His campus is small enough that we see some of his professors and the AD at home games. The team does community service every year, working with handicapped children. He has met wonderful host families from summer ball that treated him like one of their own children. His teammates that graduated the last few years have gotten jobs through campus job fairs with companies that specifically recruit athletes.
I could go on and on with the benefits of being a college athlete. Because of being an athlete my son has had a much richer college experience than many kids we know. I don't think he would have been as involved in the campus life if he didn't play college baseball.
Bottom line, he wouldn't change much about his college experience, especially the long hours he puts in for baseball.
SwampBoy and TPM,
Tell me where I ever said that players don't need to lift, run, practice, work hard - you can't because I never said it.
Must be my Boston accent, you obvioulsy don't understand my one and only question. Is there a BETTER WAY THAN WORKING 60 HOURS PER WEEK at the expense of academics and having some time for taking in the "some of" the college experience beyond baseball. If you think the answer is no, thats ok. I think the answer is yes...we disagree no big deal.
I just don't buy that working twice as many hours as the next guy guarantees you success - there are a ton of variables to success besides hours expended.
TPM, I was very clear these were my opinions and are obviously not shared by my son because he is doing what you say has to be done as a college athelte. This is his life and he made his own decision which both my wife and I support. As long as he is healthy and happy that's all we care about.
TMP, to answer your question about where I get my information.
I asked a ton of questions my sons freshman year about baseball and school, I was interested and curious, this gave me a pretty good undertanding of what the team went through. In addition, Fall and Start of season email from coach to all parents, speech by coach at golf tournament this year and last. Listening to others players when we went to dinner a few times last year. And school did a nice good of enlightening us about their conditioning with a video on the team web site.
And the winning answer is, yes I do talk to my son. In fact we talked a bunch this summer because he played in a league 30 minutes from our house. And unfortunatley we had more time to talk then either of us would have liked as he missed three weeks of games after being hit in face by a pitch followed by a mono diagnosis a few days later.
This fall keeping conversation light mostly health and school. Oopps I forgot I did send him this text last night "Meant to ask how is baseball going." Let me go get his response...I'm back "Pretty good, I'm much more comfortable than last year." My response "Good, it comes with experience. I'm going to bed to watch the Belichick special on NFL network. Mom is in Nashville." How am I doing?
You know the more I think about both your comments, I agree with you. I'm surrendering and going over to the dark side. Your are right, just because everyone is doing it that way, that's the way it should be done.. the hell with creative thinking. You have changed my mind, lets take it a step further, forget about school and anything to do with college other than baseball. Who needs college, there all going to the pros!
Tell me where I ever said that players don't need to lift, run, practice, work hard - you can't because I never said it.
Must be my Boston accent, you obvioulsy don't understand my one and only question. Is there a BETTER WAY THAN WORKING 60 HOURS PER WEEK at the expense of academics and having some time for taking in the "some of" the college experience beyond baseball. If you think the answer is no, thats ok. I think the answer is yes...we disagree no big deal.
I just don't buy that working twice as many hours as the next guy guarantees you success - there are a ton of variables to success besides hours expended.
TPM, I was very clear these were my opinions and are obviously not shared by my son because he is doing what you say has to be done as a college athelte. This is his life and he made his own decision which both my wife and I support. As long as he is healthy and happy that's all we care about.
TMP, to answer your question about where I get my information.
I asked a ton of questions my sons freshman year about baseball and school, I was interested and curious, this gave me a pretty good undertanding of what the team went through. In addition, Fall and Start of season email from coach to all parents, speech by coach at golf tournament this year and last. Listening to others players when we went to dinner a few times last year. And school did a nice good of enlightening us about their conditioning with a video on the team web site.
And the winning answer is, yes I do talk to my son. In fact we talked a bunch this summer because he played in a league 30 minutes from our house. And unfortunatley we had more time to talk then either of us would have liked as he missed three weeks of games after being hit in face by a pitch followed by a mono diagnosis a few days later.
This fall keeping conversation light mostly health and school. Oopps I forgot I did send him this text last night "Meant to ask how is baseball going." Let me go get his response...I'm back "Pretty good, I'm much more comfortable than last year." My response "Good, it comes with experience. I'm going to bed to watch the Belichick special on NFL network. Mom is in Nashville." How am I doing?
You know the more I think about both your comments, I agree with you. I'm surrendering and going over to the dark side. Your are right, just because everyone is doing it that way, that's the way it should be done.. the hell with creative thinking. You have changed my mind, lets take it a step further, forget about school and anything to do with college other than baseball. Who needs college, there all going to the pros!
TMP and Swamp.
My last post was just a little New England scarcasim. Had to throw it in, just my nature.
I really do respect and understand your points of view and agree with alot of them along with others who have commented.
I know there are many valuable lessons he will learn during this journey, he will make life time friends and I hope he looks back fondly on his college experience the rest of his life.
Its a good discussion and thanks for your time.
My last post was just a little New England scarcasim. Had to throw it in, just my nature.
I really do respect and understand your points of view and agree with alot of them along with others who have commented.
I know there are many valuable lessons he will learn during this journey, he will make life time friends and I hope he looks back fondly on his college experience the rest of his life.
Its a good discussion and thanks for your time.
Jeez I dunno, Monty. Can't really be a jerk in one post and then act all nice and conciliatory in the very next post.
nhmonty,
I thought I made it clear in one of my responses as to why your son and his team may need to practice 60 hours a week. If you didn't get it I will repeat, when you play in a top conference such as the ACC, and fall below what is acceptable in wins/losses, everyone needs to spend more time practicing, working out, conditioning to get better. Now understand that I am not dissing any particular program, but it is what it is, and one has to make the best of the situation he has accepted or perhaps make a change. I kind of see this as you being unhappy as a parent with the coach and his staff and how he goes about his business and things aren't happening. I am not sure that has anything to do with the work one puts in the gym or in practice. That could be a whole other discussion. JMO.
I'll bet that at Duke they work their butts off just as hard if not harder on the field than other ACC programs, and work pretty hard in their majors as well (to stay eligible even for academic scholarships), but I didn't hear Rob Kremer ever say one negative word about his son working too hard and he (RK) being unhappy about that. In fact, with the personal success his son had last year on the field I will bet it's because he worked his tail off his second year, and if I remember correctly he mentioned that his son, returning his second year back to the program KNEW how he was supposed to show up (same thing often happens in proball with second year guys). Now I understand your son had a tough illness to recover from, but that isn't the coaches fault. My understanding is that Swampboy's player (SEC) can't get enough of the workouts and asks for more. I beleive that BOF posted pics of workouts at school, so understand that we understand how hard kids work, I just don't think most have issues with it.
If a player feels he is being cheated out of missing other college experiences, then the player needs to look himself in the mirror and decide what is more important to him. If the parents are getting relief by way of scholarship money to offset expenses, they need to look themselves in the mirror and decide what is more important as well. This is not my jersey sarcasm on display, but rather I think that we all have to understand that when we get something, we have to give up something in return.
The reality of the college student athlete is that he/she is essentially owned and operated by those that are paying for his/her education, if not in part than in all. You either accept it or move on.
You may not want to believe it, but in this game, if you do not work twice as hard as the next guy, it's not going to happen for you (unless you are considered "gifted") . Sometimes people have to work more than twice as hard to beat out the competition, my point about being in the cage at 3pm.
I am going to speculate that your son was pretty good as a HS player, perhaps, like many, didn't have to bust his gut to get a D1 scholarship, now you are seeing what it takes to play in this type of conference to keep up with other players of his position and age.
This is a good discussion, parents reading have to understand just how difficult being a student athlete is all about before they make decisions they are sorry they made, I am not suggesting this is the case, but more or less these are points to ponder when making the decision.
If I recall correctly, son pretty much had opportunities to partake in other college activities, but perhaps having a more mature and experienced coach with a winning record, he figured out how to give the players some balance. However, if they lost a crucial game during season, he ll hath no fury, you were out on the field for practice the next free day until you were pretty tired and pretty hungry.
One more thing, why is it that some of you guys come here to vent and if no one agrees it's we are the bad guys? Perhaps you need to go back and reread your post, my opinion is that you appear to be really unhappy with the program and how it is run at UMD.
Just my new jersey sarcasm (along with some southern) on display.
I thought I made it clear in one of my responses as to why your son and his team may need to practice 60 hours a week. If you didn't get it I will repeat, when you play in a top conference such as the ACC, and fall below what is acceptable in wins/losses, everyone needs to spend more time practicing, working out, conditioning to get better. Now understand that I am not dissing any particular program, but it is what it is, and one has to make the best of the situation he has accepted or perhaps make a change. I kind of see this as you being unhappy as a parent with the coach and his staff and how he goes about his business and things aren't happening. I am not sure that has anything to do with the work one puts in the gym or in practice. That could be a whole other discussion. JMO.
I'll bet that at Duke they work their butts off just as hard if not harder on the field than other ACC programs, and work pretty hard in their majors as well (to stay eligible even for academic scholarships), but I didn't hear Rob Kremer ever say one negative word about his son working too hard and he (RK) being unhappy about that. In fact, with the personal success his son had last year on the field I will bet it's because he worked his tail off his second year, and if I remember correctly he mentioned that his son, returning his second year back to the program KNEW how he was supposed to show up (same thing often happens in proball with second year guys). Now I understand your son had a tough illness to recover from, but that isn't the coaches fault. My understanding is that Swampboy's player (SEC) can't get enough of the workouts and asks for more. I beleive that BOF posted pics of workouts at school, so understand that we understand how hard kids work, I just don't think most have issues with it.
If a player feels he is being cheated out of missing other college experiences, then the player needs to look himself in the mirror and decide what is more important to him. If the parents are getting relief by way of scholarship money to offset expenses, they need to look themselves in the mirror and decide what is more important as well. This is not my jersey sarcasm on display, but rather I think that we all have to understand that when we get something, we have to give up something in return.
The reality of the college student athlete is that he/she is essentially owned and operated by those that are paying for his/her education, if not in part than in all. You either accept it or move on.
You may not want to believe it, but in this game, if you do not work twice as hard as the next guy, it's not going to happen for you (unless you are considered "gifted") . Sometimes people have to work more than twice as hard to beat out the competition, my point about being in the cage at 3pm.
I am going to speculate that your son was pretty good as a HS player, perhaps, like many, didn't have to bust his gut to get a D1 scholarship, now you are seeing what it takes to play in this type of conference to keep up with other players of his position and age.
This is a good discussion, parents reading have to understand just how difficult being a student athlete is all about before they make decisions they are sorry they made, I am not suggesting this is the case, but more or less these are points to ponder when making the decision.
If I recall correctly, son pretty much had opportunities to partake in other college activities, but perhaps having a more mature and experienced coach with a winning record, he figured out how to give the players some balance. However, if they lost a crucial game during season, he ll hath no fury, you were out on the field for practice the next free day until you were pretty tired and pretty hungry.
One more thing, why is it that some of you guys come here to vent and if no one agrees it's we are the bad guys? Perhaps you need to go back and reread your post, my opinion is that you appear to be really unhappy with the program and how it is run at UMD.
Just my new jersey sarcasm (along with some southern) on display.
quote:If a player feels he is being cheated of missing other college experiences, then the player needs to look himself in the mirror and decide what is more important to him.
This is an absolutely critical point.
My personal opinion is that deciding that the price one pays for playing baseball at the college level is not worth it is a perfectly legitimate decision. The college experience for baseball players (and I am sure this is true for other sports as well) is not at all normal.
So many of the experiences that I cherished from my own college days are basically impossible for my son. If he decided that the price he pays for playing baseball was not worth it, I would not only accept the decision, I would think it was a completely rational and understandable decision.
There is no shame at all in looking in that mirror and deciding that the normal college experiences are more important than baseball. I think at some point most every player has this moment of personal reflection.
quote:Originally posted by nhmonty:
When you do it on your own its no longer an obligation, its a choice and there is a huge difference.
I have to be perfectly honest that son really didn't care for his college workouts or conditioning. What was an obligation taught him what he needs to do to prepare and stay in shape to compete at his job.
Now he's there whether he has to be or not, it's just part of his daily routine and most likely probably will always be.
Ron and TPM
I completely understand your points. I think I have taken this point/counter point a bit to far. I was taking the "other side" position as a challenge of the thought process. I can see where you think I am complaining but I'm not.
I really have no issue with the hard work etc. I understand he has an opportunity that most don't get and I understand there is a price to pay for that opportunity. Sure I'd like to see him have a more time to study have a little more free time but if he's ok with everything that's all we care about.
Last year the only negative I heard about the time was that one (a small one) of the reasons he chose a big university is to be able to go to football/basketball games etc (my reference to the college experience), he was disappointed he only went to one football and one basketball game due to time. Certainly not a life crisis..he got over it. And I also agree with the less free time, the less chance of getting into trouble.
We really do appreicate the opportunities he has gained to date and we know they came from hard work and if he wants to keep getting more he has to continue to work hard..its up to him.
Sometimes I sit back and shake my head about the experiences that he has received because of baseball. He's 19 and he has played at Yankee Stadium and Fenway Park. He was the first ever in our state to get an invite to tryout for Team USA. This year he got the chance to play against some of the best teams in college baseball at some wonderful venues. This is a kid from New Hampshire who played a total of 83 games in four years of high school!
We know how blessed he has been and it didn't happen because he is a stud player, it happened because he worked countless hours like your sons and the sons of many others who weighed in on this topic.
And the best part for my wife and I is he has taken us on this wonderful ride. I will never forget for the rest of my life seeing him this past February, running out to left field at U Texas for his first college game. In his first at bat there is this huge picture of him on the JumboTron ..Name..University Logo ..Freshman..Portsmouth, NH. I turn to wife, say "Do you believe this is happening to our son"
TPM (and Swamp) I want to apologize for being a Jerk in my last post, well put Ron and very deserved
criticism. It was a bad attempt at humor and uncalled for.
Thanks again for all the input.
I completely understand your points. I think I have taken this point/counter point a bit to far. I was taking the "other side" position as a challenge of the thought process. I can see where you think I am complaining but I'm not.
I really have no issue with the hard work etc. I understand he has an opportunity that most don't get and I understand there is a price to pay for that opportunity. Sure I'd like to see him have a more time to study have a little more free time but if he's ok with everything that's all we care about.
Last year the only negative I heard about the time was that one (a small one) of the reasons he chose a big university is to be able to go to football/basketball games etc (my reference to the college experience), he was disappointed he only went to one football and one basketball game due to time. Certainly not a life crisis..he got over it. And I also agree with the less free time, the less chance of getting into trouble.
We really do appreicate the opportunities he has gained to date and we know they came from hard work and if he wants to keep getting more he has to continue to work hard..its up to him.
Sometimes I sit back and shake my head about the experiences that he has received because of baseball. He's 19 and he has played at Yankee Stadium and Fenway Park. He was the first ever in our state to get an invite to tryout for Team USA. This year he got the chance to play against some of the best teams in college baseball at some wonderful venues. This is a kid from New Hampshire who played a total of 83 games in four years of high school!
We know how blessed he has been and it didn't happen because he is a stud player, it happened because he worked countless hours like your sons and the sons of many others who weighed in on this topic.
And the best part for my wife and I is he has taken us on this wonderful ride. I will never forget for the rest of my life seeing him this past February, running out to left field at U Texas for his first college game. In his first at bat there is this huge picture of him on the JumboTron ..Name..University Logo ..Freshman..Portsmouth, NH. I turn to wife, say "Do you believe this is happening to our son"
TPM (and Swamp) I want to apologize for being a Jerk in my last post, well put Ron and very deserved
criticism. It was a bad attempt at humor and uncalled for.
Thanks again for all the input.
A three-cup of coffee thread this morning - delightful to read everyone's point of view. I like what nhmonty did in this thread by taking some opposing views for sake of discussion. It made the thread much more interesting. I've enjoyed every post in the thread. BOF - all the best to your son on his quest to be an Engineer - it is a most rewarding profession.
There is an opportunity cost to everything we do in life so I don't think I buy into the Duke University story on regrets. If I do one thing, I cannot do something else so we can always look back and what-if ourselves - no matter the endeavor.
I think CaBB's take for her son's experience was very much the same as my son's experience - including the trip to Hawaii and community service
There is an opportunity cost to everything we do in life so I don't think I buy into the Duke University story on regrets. If I do one thing, I cannot do something else so we can always look back and what-if ourselves - no matter the endeavor.
I think CaBB's take for her son's experience was very much the same as my son's experience - including the trip to Hawaii and community service
quote:Originally posted by CaBB:
Yes there are long practice hours, many hours in the cages, hours studying etc, etc etc.
And yet my son as a senior has had a fantastic time in college and playing a sport he loves. Don't think he would have changed a thing. He's traveled all over the US,including Hawaii. He's met amazing people in college- some are athletes, some are just regular students. His campus is small enough that we see some of his professors and the AD at home games. The team does community service every year, working with handicapped children. He has met wonderful host families from summer ball that treated him like one of their own children. His teammates that graduated the last few years have gotten jobs through campus job fairs with companies that specifically recruit athletes.
I could go on and on with the benefits of being a college athlete. Because of being an athlete my son has had a much richer college experience than many kids we know. I don't think he would have been as involved in the campus life if he didn't play college baseball.
Bottom line, he wouldn't change much about his college experience, especially the long hours he puts in for baseball.
I've read through the thread several times, and I can't help to wonder why these players/parents didn't know what they were getting themselves into as far as the overall time committment at the various levels of college baseball. They've had access to coaches during the whole recruiting process, official and un-official visits, and resources such as HSBBWeb. None of this should be that surprising IMHO unless the coach flat out lied. My son's friend plays for a D1 powerhouse school. He knew he was going to be putting in 40-60 hours per week on baseball depending on the season. THis level of time committment is expected and the coaches work the team very very hard. As a consequense, son's friend will not be an engineer/pre-med/pre-law.....it just ain't going to happen. He will have the opportnity to go to the CWS every year. He knew all of this going in with eyes wide open. My son works a little more half those hours, is an engineering major at a very difficult school and will never see Omaha unless he flies over it. My son also knew this going in with eyes wide open. There are no suprises here.
Rob Kremers point about college experiences hit home as one my son's teammates decided to hang up his cleats to pursue an entrepreneurial business venture that will take up some serious time while going to school. His playing time was very limited last year, and I didn't expect it to change this year. He made a very adult decision to puruse his new passion - working his own business.
Swmampboy's point is also excellent. If your not putting in the time the other team or guy is, what can you expect?
Rob Kremers point about college experiences hit home as one my son's teammates decided to hang up his cleats to pursue an entrepreneurial business venture that will take up some serious time while going to school. His playing time was very limited last year, and I didn't expect it to change this year. He made a very adult decision to puruse his new passion - working his own business.
Swmampboy's point is also excellent. If your not putting in the time the other team or guy is, what can you expect?
quote:Originally posted by fenwaysouth:
My son works a little more half those hours, is an engineering major at a very difficult school...
Same thing I said to BOF - all the best to your son in his pursuit of Engineering
quote:Originally posted by fenwaysouth:
I've read through the thread several times, and I can't help to wonder why these players/parents didn't know what they were getting themselves into as far as the overall time committment at the various levels of college baseball. They've had access to coaches during the whole recruiting process, official and un-official visits, and resources such as HSBBWeb. None of this should be that surprising IMHO unless the coach flat out lied. My son's friend plays for a D1 powerhouse school. He knew he was going to be putting in 40-60 hours per week on baseball depending on the season. THis level of time committment is expected and the coaches work the team very very hard. As a consequense, son's friend will not be an engineer/pre-med/pre-law.....it just ain't going to happen. He will have the opportnity to go to the CWS every year. He knew all of this going in with eyes wide open. My son works a little more half those hours, is an engineering major at a very difficult school and will never see Omaha unless he flies over it. My son also knew this going in with eyes wide open. There are no suprises here.
Rob Kremers point about college experiences hit home as one my son's teammates decided to hang up his cleats to pursue an entrepreneurial business venture that will take up some serious time while going to school. His playing time was very limited last year, and I didn't expect it to change this year. He made a very adult decision to puruse his new passion - working his own business.
Swmampboy's point is also excellent. If your not putting in the time the other team or guy is, what can you expect?
Excellent post. I remember the day they told son that he could not be an engineering major (not because of grades as he was a science/math honor student all through HS), that if that is what he wanted he needed to go somewhere else. They were very up front and honest about what they expected from him and his role for the team. It was, "we will do everything in our power to help you get to the next level (pro) while earning your degree, but it won't be as an engineering major" (too bad as Clemson has an excellent engineering program). Now that usually is not a discussion most coaches have, but in his case of projection, he had no choice. The amount of scholarship also gave the coaches the right to dictate what they wanted as well.
Maybe my kid took the low road, he went into an easier major, and had a bit more time on his hands than he needed, at times. He got to go to football games, s****r, basketball. After a difficult first semester he got the idea and settled in and although not graduated, he did maintain honor roll status for 5 semesters. By the time he was a junior, since he pitched that summer, his fall was a bit lighter in that regards (practice), which it is for most pitchers who return from summer ball, he essentially earned a right to take a step back and enjoy what might be his last college season. He kind of had it figured out by that point, but to say it wasn't a struggle that year would be a lie. The amount of pressure placed on him as a player and a leader was enormous, and I think that year will always remain as one that taught him that anything is possible when there is so much put on your plate and about leadership as well. I think nothing he will ever face in life will better prepare him for what's ahead as he grows older as did playing college ball and going to school at the same time.
I come from an engineering family, thought that would be the way son would go since he went to a magnet science and engineering program in middle and HS. It didn't turn out that way, for now anyway, but he has been on one he ll of a ride for sure.
Best of luck to your players. It's not easy and you will find that if they can play college baseball and be involved in a difficult major (or any for that matter), they can do anything!
Great discussion and once again shows how the hsbbweb and it's posters can help the future generations of baseball players ( and most importantly their parents) to understand the realities of a commitment to baseball. So much to be learned here that can help so many people if they read this site.
My son was told what life would be like. Coaches, parents, teachers all told him of what life was like in school. He has mentioned that he had "no idea" about how hard things would be. He does not complain, but answers our questions. I think it is just one of those situations where nothing can really prepare you for all the changes.
I am going to try to contact my son's very close friend who was also his teammate @Clemson and now bb trainer at a program in a major conference (SEC).
Perhaps he would be willing to come to HSBBW radio about this very topic. It may be helpful to those that question why so many hours need to be put in the gym.
Perhaps he would be willing to come to HSBBW radio about this very topic. It may be helpful to those that question why so many hours need to be put in the gym.
I am a type of parent that enjoys nothing more then watching my son play baseball. It has been that way for me since he started playing organized baseball as a 7 year old. The fall is a funny time of year for many parents of college baseball players (and levels higher up). In the past, when our kids were in HS, we had fall ball going on during the weekends, as well as occasional weekday games to go to and watch them play. Now, nothing but phone calls and texts about how they are doing and what is going on.
nhmonty brings up a point that I have thought about in the back of my mind. I totally agree with him that there is a point where all the work being done may be counterproductive. Although my son doesn't play at the level of the ACC, the work and amount of time he puts in is very similar. I really don't think HE thinks too much about it. HE is just having the time of his life and totally enjoying the experience! We as parents may just have a little too much time on our hands...
nhmonty brings up a point that I have thought about in the back of my mind. I totally agree with him that there is a point where all the work being done may be counterproductive. Although my son doesn't play at the level of the ACC, the work and amount of time he puts in is very similar. I really don't think HE thinks too much about it. HE is just having the time of his life and totally enjoying the experience! We as parents may just have a little too much time on our hands...
As important it is to be in the weight room for performance enhancement, the biggest key is injury prevention.
You CANNOT perform your best if you are injured. That is the main reason people workout. Sure you see other benefits along the way, but the number one job of the strength and conditioning coach (along with the athletic trainer) is injury prevention.
You CANNOT perform your best if you are injured. That is the main reason people workout. Sure you see other benefits along the way, but the number one job of the strength and conditioning coach (along with the athletic trainer) is injury prevention.
Birdman,
I think that Bulldog addressed it as well as others have, strength and conditioning prevents injuries.
If you are injured you can't play, you lose your opportunity, so therefore why NOT take full advantage of what needs to be done to survive (yes I used the word survive) in the game?
That concept is pretty hard to understand for most, at first, usually until their first really big injury occurs. Then the light bulb goes off.
Also, if you are working hard and conditioning and not seeing results at anytime (better bullpens, better at batting practice etc) then something is wrong, maybe you just don't belong their to begin with.
I think that Bulldog addressed it as well as others have, strength and conditioning prevents injuries.
If you are injured you can't play, you lose your opportunity, so therefore why NOT take full advantage of what needs to be done to survive (yes I used the word survive) in the game?
That concept is pretty hard to understand for most, at first, usually until their first really big injury occurs. Then the light bulb goes off.
Also, if you are working hard and conditioning and not seeing results at anytime (better bullpens, better at batting practice etc) then something is wrong, maybe you just don't belong their to begin with.
This seems pretty timely...a stellar student, stellar athlete in a demanding university...playing football and baseball at the highest level:
Stanford’s Gaffney excels in football, baseball
September 24, 2011, 01:01 AM The Associated Press
STANFORD — Tyler Gaffney had just finished up a grueling baseball season in mid-June when Stanford football coach David Shaw suggested he take two weeks off to rest.
A rare break? You bet.
Gaffney was all for it. His legs are that much fresher now on the football field for the fifth-ranked Cardinal. Fewer of the aches, pains and nicks that used to be a factor for the junior running back purely because of his heavy workload.
It’s quite a challenge for Gaffney as a two-sport athlete at Stanford, with the rigorous academic demands to boot.
Next week, Gaffney will start taking swings in the batting cage between football practices and schoolwork.
“It’s a lot of organization,” Gaffney said. “Coming into this year, I knew exactly what to expect, I knew how my body was going to feel.”
Gaffney watched Minnesota Vikings running back Toby Gerhart star at Stanford in football and baseball before departing for the NFL, so there is a template in place for the two Cardinal programs. It helps that the two coaches get along so well, too.
Gaffney stays in touch with Gerhart, recently sending him a text message before the Vikings’ opener at San Diego.
“It definitely had a huge impact on why I came here,” Gaffney said of Gerhart’s example. “He showed it was possible. Whatever he was doing, however it was getting done, it was possible.”
Gaffney reports to Shaw and longtime Cardinal baseball coach Mark Marquess. Both are flexible with schedules and understand there are times when the best thing for Gaffney is to get off his feet. They have to keep a careful tally to make sure he stays within the NCAA 20-hour weekly limit on team activities.
It wasn’t hard to get Shaw on board. He was Gaffney’s position coach before being promoted when Jim Harbaugh left to lead the San Francisco 49ers. A former wide receiver for the Cardinal, Shaw also appeared in a varsity basketball game and a track meet during his college career.
Marquess also played first base and football for Stanford and is among a small group to have reached the College World Series as a player and coach.
Shaw’s one mandate for Gaffney: that he maintains his football weight lifting regimen.
“The only thing I did differently this year was I made him take a mandatory break after (baseball) was over,” Shaw said. “We kind of gave him a chance to get his body back. This is the first training camp that he’s been healthy and fresh. And I think it has shown in the way he has run the ball and in pass protection.”
Gaffney also said his football conditioning contributed to a “night-and-day difference” in how he held up through baseball season and avoided the fatigue he experienced as a freshman.
A backup running back on a deep unit, the 6-foot-1, 216-pound Gaffney would like to take on a bigger role in the offense for Stanford (3-0), which had its bye this weekend. He tries to do all he can with his limited touches, rushing for two touchdowns on 10 carries so far.
“You never know how many you’re going to get so you’ve got to make the most of it,” he said.
When Stanford’s baseball team lost to North Carolina in the NCAA super regionals this summer, Gaffney was riding a 22-game hitting streak — the program’s fifth-longest since 1988 — and it will carry into the 2012 season. The left fielder batted .327 with three home runs and 35 RBIs, and was second on the team with 42 runs scored. He drew a team-leading 29 walks and hit 10 doubles and five triples.
As soon as Stanford was eliminated, it immediately became time to switch gears to football.
It helps that Gaffney’s two venues — Stanford Stadium and Sunken Diamond — are a long relay throw apart.
“He’s done a good job, from what I can tell, of balancing both,” Gerhart said. “I don’t hear anybody complaining about him not being at a meeting or a practice or coming to football a step behind. He’s doing all the things right, and for him as he continues on, he’s a quality player in that he can potentially go pro definitely in baseball and I’m sure in football as well. My advice to him is keep playing them, and do the one that you love.”
Gaffney takes his heavy class load during baseball season, including 17 credits last winter.
Harbaugh never worried about Gaffney successfully juggling all of his responsibilities.
“We had a template with Toby and knew how to go about it,” Harbaugh said. “Toby was key in showing Tyler how to do it. From my perspective it was just that he was elite in baseball and football.”
A typical day for Gaffney during baseball season includes 8 a.m. morning hitting for 30 minutes, followed by class until about 2 p.m., then practice and voluntarily lifting with the football team before going home in the early evening for dinner and homework. Then start over again.
“Quick turnaround,” he said.
Gaffney has been through the transition from one sport to the next twice now, so it has become easier.
“The first year I was just learning and I talked to Toby Gerhart and I grilled him with questions,” Gaffney said. “But the questions and answers weren’t really enough to prepare yourself for what was in store.”
After the Cardinal’s Orange Bowl rout of Virginia Tech in January, Gaffney took “just a week to do absolutely nothing, then you’ve got to get the swing going again.”
This year marked the first time Gaffney took time off after baseball. It helped him transition into football conditioning. Gaffney also played in a summer baseball league with weekend doubleheaders.
“I felt much better, my legs, I felt faster, no aches,” Gaffney said. “We talked about (taking a break) and decided that would be the best bet, because I’ve had nicks and injuries that have stayed with me just because of no time off.”
Marquess makes it clear not everyone can pull off the impressive double accomplished by Gerhart and now Gaffney.
“Tyler was a big part of that,” Marquess said. “Obviously he has to make the transition from football to baseball and he’s doing a good job of that. He’s just a very gifted athlete.”
With many athletes today specializing in one sport beginning at the youth level, Shaw and Marquess appreciate how Gaffney seemingly does it all.
“I played, it seemed, like every sport growing up all the way through, and I was able to play two in college,” Shaw said. “But when you play multiple sports, you develop skills and different unique assets that can be applied in any sport.”
Gaffney gets it. And there’s no way he would change his hectic schedule.
“I couldn’t imagine it another way,” he said. “This is how my life’s always been.”
Stanford’s Gaffney excels in football, baseball
September 24, 2011, 01:01 AM The Associated Press
STANFORD — Tyler Gaffney had just finished up a grueling baseball season in mid-June when Stanford football coach David Shaw suggested he take two weeks off to rest.
A rare break? You bet.
Gaffney was all for it. His legs are that much fresher now on the football field for the fifth-ranked Cardinal. Fewer of the aches, pains and nicks that used to be a factor for the junior running back purely because of his heavy workload.
It’s quite a challenge for Gaffney as a two-sport athlete at Stanford, with the rigorous academic demands to boot.
Next week, Gaffney will start taking swings in the batting cage between football practices and schoolwork.
“It’s a lot of organization,” Gaffney said. “Coming into this year, I knew exactly what to expect, I knew how my body was going to feel.”
Gaffney watched Minnesota Vikings running back Toby Gerhart star at Stanford in football and baseball before departing for the NFL, so there is a template in place for the two Cardinal programs. It helps that the two coaches get along so well, too.
Gaffney stays in touch with Gerhart, recently sending him a text message before the Vikings’ opener at San Diego.
“It definitely had a huge impact on why I came here,” Gaffney said of Gerhart’s example. “He showed it was possible. Whatever he was doing, however it was getting done, it was possible.”
Gaffney reports to Shaw and longtime Cardinal baseball coach Mark Marquess. Both are flexible with schedules and understand there are times when the best thing for Gaffney is to get off his feet. They have to keep a careful tally to make sure he stays within the NCAA 20-hour weekly limit on team activities.
It wasn’t hard to get Shaw on board. He was Gaffney’s position coach before being promoted when Jim Harbaugh left to lead the San Francisco 49ers. A former wide receiver for the Cardinal, Shaw also appeared in a varsity basketball game and a track meet during his college career.
Marquess also played first base and football for Stanford and is among a small group to have reached the College World Series as a player and coach.
Shaw’s one mandate for Gaffney: that he maintains his football weight lifting regimen.
“The only thing I did differently this year was I made him take a mandatory break after (baseball) was over,” Shaw said. “We kind of gave him a chance to get his body back. This is the first training camp that he’s been healthy and fresh. And I think it has shown in the way he has run the ball and in pass protection.”
Gaffney also said his football conditioning contributed to a “night-and-day difference” in how he held up through baseball season and avoided the fatigue he experienced as a freshman.
A backup running back on a deep unit, the 6-foot-1, 216-pound Gaffney would like to take on a bigger role in the offense for Stanford (3-0), which had its bye this weekend. He tries to do all he can with his limited touches, rushing for two touchdowns on 10 carries so far.
“You never know how many you’re going to get so you’ve got to make the most of it,” he said.
When Stanford’s baseball team lost to North Carolina in the NCAA super regionals this summer, Gaffney was riding a 22-game hitting streak — the program’s fifth-longest since 1988 — and it will carry into the 2012 season. The left fielder batted .327 with three home runs and 35 RBIs, and was second on the team with 42 runs scored. He drew a team-leading 29 walks and hit 10 doubles and five triples.
As soon as Stanford was eliminated, it immediately became time to switch gears to football.
It helps that Gaffney’s two venues — Stanford Stadium and Sunken Diamond — are a long relay throw apart.
“He’s done a good job, from what I can tell, of balancing both,” Gerhart said. “I don’t hear anybody complaining about him not being at a meeting or a practice or coming to football a step behind. He’s doing all the things right, and for him as he continues on, he’s a quality player in that he can potentially go pro definitely in baseball and I’m sure in football as well. My advice to him is keep playing them, and do the one that you love.”
Gaffney takes his heavy class load during baseball season, including 17 credits last winter.
Harbaugh never worried about Gaffney successfully juggling all of his responsibilities.
“We had a template with Toby and knew how to go about it,” Harbaugh said. “Toby was key in showing Tyler how to do it. From my perspective it was just that he was elite in baseball and football.”
A typical day for Gaffney during baseball season includes 8 a.m. morning hitting for 30 minutes, followed by class until about 2 p.m., then practice and voluntarily lifting with the football team before going home in the early evening for dinner and homework. Then start over again.
“Quick turnaround,” he said.
Gaffney has been through the transition from one sport to the next twice now, so it has become easier.
“The first year I was just learning and I talked to Toby Gerhart and I grilled him with questions,” Gaffney said. “But the questions and answers weren’t really enough to prepare yourself for what was in store.”
After the Cardinal’s Orange Bowl rout of Virginia Tech in January, Gaffney took “just a week to do absolutely nothing, then you’ve got to get the swing going again.”
This year marked the first time Gaffney took time off after baseball. It helped him transition into football conditioning. Gaffney also played in a summer baseball league with weekend doubleheaders.
“I felt much better, my legs, I felt faster, no aches,” Gaffney said. “We talked about (taking a break) and decided that would be the best bet, because I’ve had nicks and injuries that have stayed with me just because of no time off.”
Marquess makes it clear not everyone can pull off the impressive double accomplished by Gerhart and now Gaffney.
“Tyler was a big part of that,” Marquess said. “Obviously he has to make the transition from football to baseball and he’s doing a good job of that. He’s just a very gifted athlete.”
With many athletes today specializing in one sport beginning at the youth level, Shaw and Marquess appreciate how Gaffney seemingly does it all.
“I played, it seemed, like every sport growing up all the way through, and I was able to play two in college,” Shaw said. “But when you play multiple sports, you develop skills and different unique assets that can be applied in any sport.”
Gaffney gets it. And there’s no way he would change his hectic schedule.
“I couldn’t imagine it another way,” he said. “This is how my life’s always been.”
Great story and quite an amazing young man, two sports and 17 credit hours..unreal. I did note a few references about time off and recharging in the article.
Related to this topic (cetainly doesn't apply to this extraodinary young man); yesterday I was reading a story about a company and its flex time policy. I thought this quote was also interesting - just a different point of view.
"If I have and employee who can accomplish their tasks in 30 hours and have the freedom to live a high quality of life, that's an emplyoee who will be even more productive and create better value for the company than one who puts in 60 hours a week and has no quality of life." Jmichaele Keller, CEO, MeetingMatrix International.
Related to this topic (cetainly doesn't apply to this extraodinary young man); yesterday I was reading a story about a company and its flex time policy. I thought this quote was also interesting - just a different point of view.
"If I have and employee who can accomplish their tasks in 30 hours and have the freedom to live a high quality of life, that's an emplyoee who will be even more productive and create better value for the company than one who puts in 60 hours a week and has no quality of life." Jmichaele Keller, CEO, MeetingMatrix International.
I guess all of those practice hours and conditioning in the gym is working , Terps made Baseball America's top 25 (25) first time ever in the 32 years BA has been reporting the top 25.
They also rank #1 in wins in their division in the ACC (for non conference).
They also rank #1 in wins in their division in the ACC (for non conference).