D3 Talent

Welcome...based on my experience and others, there is quite a bit of talent overlap from mid-major D1 to D3. There are certain D1 teams (I refuse to name names) that could not beat certain D3 teams once in ten games.

After you drop out of the top 40 or 50 D1 teams, it gets harder to tell the difference in division by looking at them.

All that said, physical and mental talent will determine the best fit, which usually seems to emerge with enough care and feeding of the process.

Welcome Bludevil.

Your son is a Freshmen so you have lots of time. Go watch some games in your area. (there are lots I am sure) It will become pretty evident once you see a few what the differences are.

BOF, Thanks

You are right, we do have a lot of ACC baseball here(UNC, DUKE, Wake, NCSTATE) but not much Division 2 or Division 3 (that I am aware of)

Just a thought. My son has been looking at all three levels and is being recruited heavily by D2 and top d3's and getting a few hits from d1's.

He has a friend who is playing for an SEC school. His friend is spending 50hrs a week this fall in practice or "baseball activities." He's had to drop classes and won't be able to graduate for 5 years. My son has also talked to players at numerous D1's who have similar experiences. (Doesn't the NCAA regulate this?)

He's decided he wants school first, baseball second so he'll be looking at D3, and D2 mostly. I've heard of many players making that call. They want to have a college life outside of baseball.

Players who can walk-on at D1 might be heavily pursued at d3 and solidly pursued at Mid to low D2. It would seem that many players who are good enough to play D1 but don't want the time commitment, or that could play for a bottom D1 team but prefer contending for a championship are drawn to D3's.

From our experience (son is 2010) things will start sorting themselves out by junior year and you will have good idea of the level to concentrate on. The recruiting process can be very expensive and so getting a good handle on where to concentrate your time and financial resources is so important (unless resources are limitless). We had the experience that our son was in contact with a nationally ranked D II program early this fall when the coach took a job at a D I school. Son asked the coach to give him an honest recommendation of where he should be looking (that type of opportunity is priceless in my opinion). Based on that information and communication and visits, son has signed with a top notch D II program and we are glad the process is finished!

quote:

Originally posted by Bludevil_bk:
BOF, Thanks

You are right, we do have a lot of ACC baseball here(UNC, DUKE, Wake, NCSTATE) but not much Division 2 or Division 3 (that I am aware of)

Here is a link to NCAA D2 baseball where you can locate D2 schools by State. http://www.stmarytx.edu/athlet...a/index.php?id=state

Jones fan: I would pass along to you that the time commitment to play baseball is no different at a D2 school than it is at a D1. I think most folks on here would tell you that as well. Playing baseball is like having a job in addition to doing your classroom work. The days (and evenings) are pretty regimented at all levels.

quote:

Doesn't the NCAA regulate this?

Yes they do. But try missing "optional" training workouts and see what happens. A college coach's job is to put a winning team on the field. It's why he's paid. Even the competitive D3's have heavy workloads.

At a friend's son's D3 program part of fall ball was restoring the dugouts and painting the outfield fence. The team didn't have the budget for facilities management to do the work.

Don't overlook the time spent in the weight room, running, doing conditioning, etc. on your own. Or the community service, guest speaking events, dinners, meetings that you have to attend, weekly study hall hours. Or the nutrition you must follow as a collegiate student-athlete. College sports is a full-time job, regardless of the level you play at.

Well said JH

D1 17 Teams
D2 22 Teams
D3 5 Teams

This is a breakdown of the college baseball programs in NC at these levels. I have watched many D2 and D3 games over the years and God willing will see a few more this coming season.

I can not speak for other areas of the country when it comes to D2 and D3 baseball. I can say without a doubt that there is a major difference in the talent level at each level. There are players at each level that can play at any level. On a given day anyone can beat anyone. But there is a big difference from my experience.

I think we are misleading people when we dont tell it like it is and I am not suggesting anyone is not. But the fact is there is. At least in NC. Bash if you want. If your from NC and you have the experience of seeing D2 D3 and D1 and you want to debate fine.

And yes there are a couple of D2 programs in NC that are more talented than a couple of the D1 programs in NC. But if your going to compare as a whole = big difference.

I agree with Coach May - the difference in talent level in big. There are, however, kids on the D3 level who could play D1.

quote:

Originally posted by Bludevil_bk:
My son is a HS Freshman.

He is a serious player and academically focused. Being new to the college baseball process, how does the talent level compare from D1 to D3 schools.

He has already attended two small D1 showcase camps and has been able to "hold his own' against the older boys.

Just want to know if the talent level significantly varies between a small D1 and a D2 or D3.

Thanks,

When you get to the end of the showcase/recruiting process don't just look at where your son can make the team. He should go where he can get on the field. A team has thirty-five players. About twenty to twenty-two players will get reasonable playing time. Every year the new, latest, greatest recruits will be brought in for more competition.

quote:

When you get to the end of the showcase/recruiting process don't just look at where your son can make the team. He should go where he can get on the field.

RJM, while I agree with you to a point, there is much more to college baseball, I think. My guess is you will agree.
First, you want to be in a program where you will be well coached, and coached with the opportunity to be the best you can be. Your college coaching staff must provide the coaching skills to improve and develop the players skills. Similarly, the player must be coachable and motivated to get better and not be satisfied. It is surprising the number of players who feel the numbers they are putting up are fine, but the coaches recognize the player is tapping only a portion of their talent.
Second, you want to be in a program that provides baseball opportunities during the Summer, where you can compete and see what you can do against the best.
Third, you want a program where you are a person, not a number, where you mean something off the field to your coaches and teammates.
Fourth, you should want to be challenged each practice, each game, each season to be better. The mere fact you can be on the field one year should not mean you will be on it next year. Being in a situation where the coaching staff recruits strong players, just like yourself, is the only way teams and programs succeed.
In response to the thoughts of Coach May and redbird, the top level DIII programs will have DI quality players. What they won't have is the depth of that type of talent. What you might find is the DI talent goes 3-5 players/pitchers deep and tapers from that point.
The second aspect is whether the DIII top talent can play and succeed in the ACC/SEC/Pac10/Big 12. In my experience and observations, there is even more tapering. Are there DIII players who can compete at those levels? The answer is clearly yes, but not too many.

I was taking a simplistic view where the items you present are givens. But it is important not to get buried on the bench or worse, cut. If the objective is to play ball it can't be done when buried at the back of the roster.

quote:

If the objective is to play ball it can't be done when buried at the back of the roster

I completely agree it sure is not easy to do it from there, but it can be done and is done.
The player needs to have the talent that either has been overlooked or not developed.
He needs to have the willingness to work harder than anyone else to develop that talent, before and after practice.
He needs to have a coaching staff that will work with him before and after practice to develop that talent.
He needs to have a coaching staff with an open mind and eyes.
As he develops and improves, he needs to be mentally ready so that when his opportunity arises, he demonstrates he can play and compete. Once he does that, he needs to recognize today is over and he needs to be better tomorrow.
Like I said, it is not easy, but it can happen.

Great post infielddad. And just to make it clear there are players buried at the back of rosters at every level and some rosters are alot bigger. I have yet to hear a kid say "I came here to sit the bench." They all want to play. Some are more willing to do what it takes to play than others are. It always shakes out in the end.

There are many players at the D2 D3 levels that can play at any level. There are not as many teams that can.

Coach, I'll agree with you on that, and the difference, of course, is the top-of-the-line talent at the elite ACC/SEC schools as well as the depth all the way down to No. 35 on those rosters. Even the very best D2/D3's can't come close in that regard. The gaps can be just as big within the D1 level itself, especially if you're comparing a Top 25 program to the back-end teams of a lower-tier conference. And, yet, as you said, on any given night, a lower-tier D1 or a D2 or D3 could give one of the big boys fits, especially if the right guy was on the mound.

Many of the top guys at a D2 are ones who slipped through the cracks or were late bloomers or were players who kept working harder than everyone around them. Some are guys who stepped down from D1 if a particular situation didn't work out for them. Baseball can be inexact when it comes to judging talent, and there are hits and misses at every level when it comes to recruiting.

All that aside, I'd tell dads not to get too worked up over comparing the different levels. Find a program that works for your son and enjoy it. The point should be to become the best D1 player/team you can be or the best D2 or D3 or JUCO or NAIA player/program you can be. Have fun. Work hard. Get better. Eventually, the pro scouts sort it all out anyway.

The point is to keep playing, and I'd agree with all the other posters on here who advise to find a place where there's a true opportunity to play. Don't get too hung up on which level you think you have to reach.

Great Advice from all posters. You guys are Great!!

Thanks

quote:

Originally posted by Coach_May:
D1 17 Teams
D2 22 Teams
D3 5 Teams

This is a breakdown of the college baseball programs in NC at these levels. I have watched many D2 and D3 games over the years and God willing will see a few more this coming season.

I can not speak for other areas of the country when it comes to D2 and D3 baseball. I can say without a doubt that there is a major difference in the talent level at each level. There are players at each level that can play at any level. On a given day anyone can beat anyone. But there is a big difference from my experience.

I think we are misleading people when we dont tell it like it is and I am not suggesting anyone is not. But the fact is there is. At least in NC. Bash if you want. If your from NC and you have the experience of seeing D2 D3 and D1 and you want to debate fine.

And yes there are a couple of D2 programs in NC that are more talented than a couple of the D1 programs in NC. But if your going to compare as a whole = big difference.

Coach - I agree it is very tough to generalize. A disproportionate amount of D2 WS champions come from Florida. U. Tampa and Florida Southern can play with most anyone any year. Alot of D1 teams look better getting off the bus, but that's about it.

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:

quote:

Doesn't the NCAA regulate this?

Yes they do. But try missing "optional" training workouts and see what happens. A college coach's job is to put a winning team on the field. It's why he's paid. Even the competitive D3's have heavy workloads. .

The issue I have with the coach's thinking is that it's one thing to expect that level of work when an athlete is fully scholarshipped, it's another thing when most all of the players are minimally scholarshipped or not scholarshipped at all. Basically, they are costing their players tens of thousands of dollars per extra year they have to stay at school.

quote:

Doesn't the NCAA regulate this?

Yes they do.I believe it is 20 hours a week for practice time for D1. That doesn't include workouts and weights.They have so many days to practice within time period.All I have to say is it is a full time job.Are the coaches costing the kids tens of thousands of dollars? Many still graduate in four years, most kids now a a days don't graduate in 4 years if they are not playing baseball.
Look parents of HS players, need to realize this is the way it is at the college level.It is tough to take 15-16 units and do all the required stuff.And as stated earlier in this thread, some boys decide they don't want that commitment and go to a school that has less demands. Although posters on here that have kids that play different levels have stated that its demanding there as well.
At my sons school, many have night classes, and they are allowed to leave early to attend.The coaches tell them to put academics first.It is a huge commitment. Coach May once said you better love it,and it is true.

quote:

The issue I have with the coach's thinking is that it's one thing to expect that level of work when an athlete is fully scholarshipped, it's another thing when most all of the players are minimally scholarshipped or not scholarshipped at all. Basically, they are costing their players tens of thousands of dollars per extra year they have to stay at school.

This is why I pushed for max scholarship.
There are lots of BB players who can handle the commitment to college ball and academics. My son and his 2 roommates had no problem doing the work load and having a social life as well.
The only complaint I ever heard was the coaches holding them for ground maintenance when they had to prepare for an exam. Also missing lectures when on the road.
If your son keeps his grades up he is exempt from study hall. My son and his roommates never did study hall once.
I believe the NCAA also limited how many courses you can fore go in their recent rule changes. I do know many players who lightened their load and who had to take extra courses beyond the 4 years in order to graduate. That wasn't an option for us.

quote:

The issue I have with the coach's thinking is that it's one thing to expect that level of work when an athlete is fully scholarshipped, it's another thing when most all of the players are minimally scholarshipped or not scholarshipped at all. Basically, they are costing their players tens of thousands of dollars per extra year they have to stay at school.

Jones fan,
I cannot speak for all DIII's but I can speak for the one our son attended. The most recent stats I saw reported are that athletes graduated at a higher rate than the student body as a whole, 89% to 86%.
Of those student athletes, 100% graduated within 5 years. Most graduated in either 4 or 4.5 years.
Our son graduated in 4 years. His roommate graduated in 4.5 years. Each had outstanding experiences in the classroom, on the baseball field(both were 1st Team DIII All-Americans) and each developed in all the ways you would like to have happen in college.
In my view, developing in these ways does not relate to a baseball scholarship.
They don't exist at DIII, as you know.
In fact, I believe baseball and the baseball experience/coaches can facilitate a mental and time management approach that allows the student athlete to compete well and succeed on the field, do all the extra work to get better, and to manage his classes and academic progress.
When our son got to Milb, his roommate was a Stanford grad. In fact, while playing on a team that went to Omaha 3 times, he graduated with a double major, and he graduated in 3 years.
Academic progress and a fine college baseball career are not mutually exclusive, in my view. They are not dependent on a scholarship, or the amount of that money, either, in my view.

Good post, infielddad.

I believe the time demands of a sport also help kids stay more focused on what they need to do off the field. The discipline required to keep up with classes, school work, baseball and conditioning/lifting is something that will serve them well in life, too. They come to understand what it takes to excel on several levels. The coach at my son's school says that area employers will often call him if they're looking for employees because his players have already learned the meaning of hard work while meeting goals.

To me, the structured environment is a positive, not a negative. Not only are they getting to continue playing a sport they love, they're also getting an education in the process. My son talks about some non-athletes in his dorm who do nothing but play video games when they're not in class. Hey, free time can be overrated. All that said, he still has a little bit of a social life with his teammates and friends.

And its very simple really. If you are not willing to make the sacrifices you have to make and your not willing to do what the coach requires of you then dont play. No one is making a kid play college baseball. If I had a nickle for everytime I have heard a kid say "Coach I want to play college baseball." And these thoughts immediately went through my head.

"You want to play college baseball?"

And you whine about having to practice three hours a day after a day of hs class?

And you whine about having to practice on Saturdays during the hs season?

And you never stay after practice to get in extra work?

And you struggle to keep up with the demands of high school academics? Because you are lazy.

And you complain about having to get home late at 6pm on school days after practice only to have to do hs homework?

And you rarely come to off season workouts?

And you gripe about having to stay after practice to work on the field?

And you ask to miss practice on Saturdays so you can go on a trip with your family?

The list is so long.

No you dont want to play college baseball.

Lets be real here. If a player does not love the game. If he does not have in his heart what he has to have in his heart he will not be there very long. If he has not shown during his four years of hs what it takes to be a part of a college program while also showing what it takes to be a college student he is not suddenly going to get it once he arrives on a college campus. Its not going to happen.

Oh they can learn. By the time they learn what they have to do they are sitting at home realizing they learned it way too late.

It takes a man to do what these young men do. You dont prepare players to be boys you prepare them to be men. And if they are not willing or do not have the desire before they go dont waste your time.

Coach May- GREAT post. I don't think many high school athletes realize what it takes. College baseball...sports... is literally a second job.

With that being said, I believe this forum is a great use of information for people like Bluedevil_bk who are searching for helpful information. While it might seem to be swaying a bit off topic to some, I would highly recommend using all the info given to your advantage, because it all is 100% true.


As a high school athlete, work hard to put yourself in a position to be able to catch a coach's eye. A well-rounded talented baseball player who has proven to be both coachable and hard-working goes a long way in a coach's mind.

Coach May, great post. I am going to print it off and put in on the 'frig!

Great post Coach May!

Today is sons birthday and he turns 18!
So, what is his big plans?

" I got no time to do anything as I am busy between workouts, schoolwork, tests, and papers-but I think this Saturday I may have a few hours to go to dinner with my friends"

Happy Birthday College baseball guy!- his gift-a crash course in baseball college time management!

Interesting thoughts. I'll have to think on what you all wrote. I would challenge that many programs still lose perspective. For instance my son's friend was told you are a baseball player first, and a student second. Several colleges we've visited had similar outlooks. Others, VT for instance, said academics first and baseball second. Coaches loose perspective, as do parents and players. College is not the pro's. They are there to learn first, play ball second. Pro's can expect long hours because they pay their players to do that. It is a full-time job. College baseball is not. . .unless you are a coach. Coaches need to remember that.

50 hrs a week of practice is a bit foolish anyway. . .perhaps it's why that team stinks. There is such thing as practicing too much.

Having worked my way through Undergrad and worked with a family through my masters, I will say that studying requires a certain amount of time. 50 Hr weeks in practice don't allow the time you need for a serious major. While a student may be able to get by with a physical education degree, they aren't going to be able to get a more difficult one, which is why the NCAA places restrictions on practice in the first place.

By far the most important thing all but a very small minority will walk out of college with, is a degree.

Thousands of BB players and other athletes get their degrees every year. Some take very demanding majors and get through without any difficulties.
It can be done and you can have a life other than your sport. Not sure hwy posters dramatize this .

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
Thousands of BB players and other athletes get their degrees every year. Some take very demanding majors and get through without any difficulties.
It can be done and you can have a life other than your sport. Not sure hwy posters dramatize this .

I think my D3 freshman son is doing fine, College for anyone in their first semester is about a lot of adjustments. He loves it! While it is a lot of work, he enjoys the school, his teammates, and is getting it all done. His academics are important to him and to the admin at the school and that is what should and does keep him busy the most. But at the end of the day, he knows the second semester will be a whole lot easier now that he has developed a process-even with the game schedule
For any freshman the first semester is a little tense. But I have no fear that as many have stated, they all usually get it done and relish it when they look back on it after they graduate.I think all these adjustments are part of his learning.

A lot of one's education comes outside the classroom

As Mark twain said "I never let school interfere with my education!"