Daddy Ball

quote:

My problem is that you seem to be negative on every pre-high school topic that comes up. If you can't encourage these young parents who need good advice, stick to the post-high school section or the other sections. I know many of these parents personally and they are just seeking advice not someone judging their choices.

Hmmm... I think part of the problem may be parents seeking age-inapropriate advice. By that I mean I have found most (yes most) parents of real young players are seeking "advice" for their own self-gratification. One does not need a whole bunch of information to do the right thing at 7 or 8 y/o. It's pretty simple teach the basics and keep it fun.

Jake


Amen to that !

I just wanted to put my resume up also.

I coached 6 years in LL minors(I have 3 kids). Approximately 98% of the kids I coached had a blast and continued to play baseball.

Beat that percentage!!

quote:

Originally posted by Doughnutman:
I just wanted to put my resume up also.

I coached 6 years in LL minors(I have 3 kids). Approximately 98% of the kids I coached had a blast and continued to play baseball.

Beat that percentage!!

It's a good percentage. I have the same philosophy. With all the kids I've coached in baseball and basketball, regardless of the level they reached, I'll claim the best thing I did was didn't screw them so they kept playing.

quote:

Originally posted by Doughnutman:
I just wanted to put my resume up also.

I coached 6 years in LL minors(I have 3 kids). Approximately 98% of the kids I coached had a blast and continued to play baseball.

Beat that percentage!!

What about the moms and dads? Did they have fun? It really doesn't matter what the kids want does it?

Jeff,
I must admit that my percentage with the parents was closer to 50%. Many off them disliked what we did on the field and in practice. Some parents couldn't understand why I was the only team with 11 MI'ers, 11 pitchers, 6 catchers, 11 third basemen, 11 outfielders and 11 first basemen.

We even managed to win about half of our games.

It was always fun in the first few weeks. I always had a few parents go loco.
I could live with a 50% survival rate for the parents.

quote:

Originally posted by RETIRED GM:

quote:

We could have a debate on what "real life" is relative to baseball. But whatever it is I'll guess having coached 18U showcase and helping a roster get to college ball is more real life than tee ball. It's the over the top dads of kiddie ballers who need to grasp reality.

I have to agree with Jeff. RJM, you seem to paint people with a rather broad paint brush. Over the top dads of kiddie ballers? Please.

My coaching resume is quite diverse with hundreds of kids graduating on to college and or pro ball while coaching at the highest level of 18U baseball. My teams have played in AABC Mickey Mantle and Connie Mack World Series and been a regular stop for DI colleges and pro scouts for many years. Does that qualify me as more than an over the top dad of kiddie ballers?

You say that there are more decisions to be made at older levels of youth baseball.....well, I have done that, and quite well I might add, in a competitive baseball hotbed here in Dallas, TX. So how exactly does coaching a showcase team qualify someone to make such negative comments when you admittedly have never even coached t-ball?

I appreciate your willingness to try to help others here....if that is indeed your objective....but your responses are indeed less than productive to the topic at hand and very condescending. A lot of good baseball men have responded in this thread without having to throw out their backgrounds. Know how I know they are baseball men? From their well thought out advice and opinions and their willingness to HELP others. On the other hand, your posts have been, well,.....

So based upon your flawed reasoning, RJM.....why don't YOU send ME a PM. I would then be more than happy to give you some real life and positive advice that might be helpful to your 16U.............

As the topic starter here, I wanted to step in. I see both you and RJM have had a difference of opinion, and that is the exact reason I started this thread.

My background is similar in that I coached 18U baseball for the Columbia Reds (MD) for 15 years. We were fortunate enough to have many of the best players in MD play for us. And assisting the players in reaching their full potential to facilitate them playing in college, was one of our top goals.

After my dad's death in 2003, I stopped coaching summer ball. My mom needed help. As my kids have gotten more and more into sports, and the pressure is building by others for me to coach atleast my son, I wanted to know where the boundaries are. I gave of myself and time for 15 years...to kids of other parents. And I loved every minute of it. I don't and have never pushed my kids to sports. But now that my 6 year old has played one year of T-ball, and this year will be playing coach pitch, I wanted perspective. T-ball was excellent and lots of fun. Kids played all over the place, unless they couldn't defend themselves. And by season's end, all 8 boys and 4 girls had developed enough to play P or 1B (the most dangerous positions IMO). By develop I mean would pay attention, know how to stick the glove up to protect themselves, or at worst, get out of the way.

Larry, our baseball situations are very, very similar.

As you can see there are many different opinions on ways to go about coaching your son and, same as you, I am just starting to wade into this stage of my life as well. The hardest part through mine's first six years has been not forcing baseball upon him. Last spring in his first season he had fun but didn't really get it. In the fall something clicked and now he eats, sleeps and lives baseball. This makes life more fun for both of us as it is certainly a commonality that my son and I can bond through.

As a coach of older, high-end ballplayers you have had the opportunity to see the end product of the many different routes that those players took to reach your 18U team and I am sure many of them played for dad at one time or another. Your experience as a coach will get you through most of the 'daddyball' accusations but according to those posting here it will likely happen no matter what we do. More than anything....enjoy the ride and the time that you get to spend with your son. I know I am.

If you do happen to receive or experience any kind of enlightenment on the topic - feel free to share!

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:
Don't let one sport swallow them up at an early age. Don't let organized sports swallow them up at an early age.

The Bible - according to RJM.

RJM - heres a little insight:

Both my kids were swallowed up by the game - because they loved it.

As long as they acted like good human beings - and worked hard at their schoolwork - we allowed that.

Thank God we didnt take your "all-knowing" advice.

quote:

Thank God we didnt take your "all-knowing" advice.

I have a Thank God too. Thank God several regulars have PM'ed me and advised to ignore your obnoxious, personal BS.

What I've posted is worthy of debate if someone disagrees. Your post is nothing but a personal attack. But, that's who you are. I've seen you do it with several people. You even started a thread with a poster's name as the heading to personally attack him where everyone could see it. That's says a lot about you.

Please guys...get back on topic and stop the arguing. I, along with many others here, are trying to learn and share.

RJM,

You are very condescending IMO - and in some circles - that just doesnt play well.
So enjoy your PM's - but please - stop whining.

If you want to post your condescending advice - be prepared for people like me to disagree. Remember - not every one on this site is an idiot.

When you stop talking down to us - we may actually talk to you.

Larry ... I can do without the personal attacks. But it's how ITS plays the game. He even started a thread on someone to publicly launch a personal attack.

RJM,

Stop lying.

If you hit - you get hit back.

We arent farm animals here.

We dont want to hear how everything and everybody sucks - except you.

And it is just too bad if you dont like it.

If you talk to me like an animal - you will be treated like one as well.

Get real.

ITS ... If you want to debate, go ahead. If you want me to like you don't hold your breath. If you think I come to the board to build friendships, don't hold your breath. I've developed friendships with people on boards, but it's not the intent. I post to exchange ideas. I can be civil with people who act civil.

quote:

If you hit - you get hit back.

I don't believe I hit you. I believe you jumped in insult first. But I've come to recognize that's how you operate. Why don't you go start a thread about me like you did to another poster you don't like, a day or so ago. You'll live a lot longer if you stop building hatred for text on a screen.

I dont care what you come here for.

I just wont let you talk down to our baseball family - or me - without coming right back at you - every single time - and with great passion.

Just the way it is here. IMO.

Talk to us like peers and as members of a family - and it is cool - talk to us like we are donkeys - and it isnt.

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:
I don't believe I hit you. I believe you jumped in insult first. But I've come to recognize that's how you operate. Why don't you go start a thread about me like you did to another poster you don't like a day or so ago. You'll live a lot longer if you stop building hatred for text on a screen.

It appears you refuse to "get it".

RJM,

LOL - Nice.

Good luck.

BTW - Is there anything you like about the game - or those involved in it - other than yourself? LOL

You could have joined the debate on the other side explaining why your kids did what they did and why you disagree with me. But you chose to go straight for the insult. It's what you do. I can accept that.

Explain why my "kids" chose to do "what they did"?

Cant you read. They love the game.

Is that not good enough for you?

LOL

Since I know your MO is getting in the last word, I will accept your last statement as getting in the last word.

Ok - I will oblige you. LOL

BTW - Did you happen to notice that you have called me a wide variety of names - from insulting - to ignorant - and just about every thing else in between.

And have you also noticed that I dont do those things?

Yes - I have called you condescending - because you are.
LOL - I guess that is a bad thing to do.

But I will ask you again - is there anything you like about this game - or the people involved this game - other than yourself?

That is - IMO - a very reasonable question.

Is there anything that meets with your approval?

quote:
"Last spring he was just learning how to play so he played OF for the entire season. "

"This shouldn't have happened either. They're all learning how to play the game. No one player is that good. Not that it should matter."

Yes they are all learning to play the game.

But, a coach should not put a T baller or older player, in a position , such as infield or pitcher, if the coach knows that player could not proctect themselves from a ball hit at them or ball thrown to them.

quote:

But, a coach should not put a T baller or older player, in a position , such as infield or pitcher, if the coach knows that player could not proctect themselves from a ball hit at them or ball thrown to them.

When I coached 7/8's machine pitch I rotated all the players equally for two seasons. At the end of each season every kid had played the same amount of time at each position except players who refused to catch. Not one player got hurt because they couldn't catch the ball. While some kids may not have caught the ball, they got their glove on it. The only kid who got hurt was one of the best players who took a bad hop right between the eyes ranging up the middle for a ground ball. His great range (relative to 7/8's) got him hurt. When a coach places a little kid in the outfield for the season he might as well hang a "you suck, why don't you quit" sign on him for everyone to see because the kids aren't stupid. They get it. Then coaches wonder why this kid is picking daisies in the outfield.

quote:

is there anything you like about this game - or the people involved this game -

You're right. Wrapped in your condescending approach is a reasonable question.

I love baseball. I love other sports. While I love teaching baseball, I'd rather coach a basketball game than a baseball game. But at the preteen youth level I see a lot wrong. I see a game that's supposed to be played for fun being hijacked by some people in the name of development. Little kids don't need to worry about future development the way some of their parents push them. When the kids are preteen the game should be all about enjoyment and building a passion for the game, not worrying about pleasing coaches and parents with performance. This doesn't mean don't practice hard, play hard and try to win. It means every weekend doesn't need to be the seventh game of the World Series for little kids. Watch the behavior after a preteen game. The boys are rolling in the grass down the hill or wrestling while the parents are lamenting and breaking down the loss.

My son played preteen travel as a summer add on to rec ball (LL/Ripken). The good part was it was more ball without going over the top. They bad part was how seriously some of the parents and coaches took the games. The shame is kids don't hit the playgrounds all summer to play ball as we did. But those days are gone. So there's no sense in lament.

I saw 9U coaches who had obviously taught pitchers how to knock down and drill hitters. I saw parents yelling obscenities at opposing players to intimidate them as opposed to appreciating the abilities of an opponent. I saw coaches leading kids like it was the World Series. I saw pitcher's parents go up to fielders after games and tell them the team would have won if not for their misplay, and made them cry. These parents don't care about the team winning. They care about their son being the losing pitcher.

You would have thought I condemned two hundred 7/8 kids when I (commissioner) told some over the top parents, "As parents, with the right behavior we're more likely to create fans of the game than high school varsity players. So lets act appropriately." One mother wanted me removed as commissioner because I didn't believe all the kids had a chance to be high school baseball players. Most of them aren't high school athletes now. That's why it's important to let them enjoy the game while they can. If you want to hear great reminiscing on LL, listen to a dad/friend who wasn't very good. It's funny. They knew they weren't good. But they have great memories.

My son also played travel basketball and s****r. I watched parents chant "you don't deserve to win" at the other team at a championship game because they thought the referring was biased. Don't get me started on travel s****r parents. I've seen a coach physically attacked by a dad over playing time.

From a delusional standpoint, a dad once commented to me at a U10 (nine's) s****r game, "So this will be the varsity team someday." When I responded it would be three to five of them and explained why, he was taken back.

I once asked a mother of a 11U player what high schools they were considering since private Catholic High Schools are big here. She said it would be the one that offered the biggest scholarship for baseball and basketball. The kid was out of both sports by eighth grade due to lack of athletic ability. He was just big at a young age.

I was once asked how many MLB scouts are at our 13U USSSA games. This was from a dad who called his son "The meal ticket to Williamsport." the year before. The kid's team didn't get out of pool play. The dad openly criticized the other pitchers. I told the dad his son would have fun with our group and be exposed to good coaching. It wasn't enough without the scouts.

As I watched all this behavior I became very intersted in the psychology and developmental aspects of youth sports. I read a lot ... Bob Bigelow, Bob Wolff, Dr, Joel Fish, John Thompson and others. I don't agree with everything they say. In fact Bob Bigelow and I have had some good debates in the past on age appropriateness in preteen sports. But I agree with their general philosophy.

I got to the point where I started watching the parents as much as the games. There are a lot of crazy parents at youth sporting events.

So while I'm not against competitiveness in the preteen years, I believe it can be overdone. I don't believe a 10U team needs to go to USSSA nationals. I don't think a 10U team needs to go to the next county (unless you live right on the line).

When kids turn thirteen and hit seventh grade is the time to torque up their game. It gives them two good years of development before they hit high school. Even then, in many cases you can't tell who all the varsity players will be freshman year. You can tell some. But it's not a done deal for many yet. Take football and basketball and it's hard to tell if the kids haven't grown yet.

I believe parents need to encourage their kids but not drive them to success. When I hear "It's what my kid wants", I often see a situation where a young kid is pleasing dad. The one time I didn't discipline a kid for swearing was 10U. As the last out of the last game was made the kid said, "Thank F'n God! No more post game analysis on the way home until next spring." A parent can't drive a kid to success. The kid has to have the drive and passion within him.

That's not to say I haven't said to my kids in their teens, "Your actions are not matching your goals right now." But I'm reminding them they're being lazy about what they claim they want. Then there were times I realized after I said it they were just tired.

One last note. The situations I've noted are happening all over the country, not just where I live. I'm not down on the game. I'm down on overzealous parents and coaches. I'm a big believer in perspective as it relates to age.

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:
I'm a big believer in perspective as it relates to age.

That quote strikes me as funny and completely negates any credibility that you might have thought you had.

So now we know you're a big believer in....perspective. This coming from a guy that has had a lot of opinions on 6U t-ball in this thread yet has absolutely zero experience coaching 6U t-ball.

Thanks for your perspective!

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:
When I hear "It's what my kid wants", I often see a situation where a young kid is pleasing dad.

I was reading this long post - and then bingo! Subtle - but still stuck out like a sore thumb.

Did it ever occur to you that maybe this young kid - and then teen - and then young man loved the game?

Did it ever occur to you that Daddy didnt enter the equation?

Can you believe that some kids really do want that - and really want to succeed on the field - and it has nothing to do with Daddy and Mommy?

Maybe it has to do with the player - and not the parents.

quote:

Originally posted by itsinthegame:

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:
When I hear "It's what my kid wants", I often see a situation where a young kid is pleasing dad.

I was reading this long missive - and then bingo! Subtle - but still stuck out like a sore thumb.

Did it ever occur to you that maybe this young kid - and then teen - and then young man loved the game?

Did it ever occur to you that Daddy didnt enter the equation?

Can you believe that some kids really do want that - and really want to succeed on the field - and it has nothing to do with Daddy and Mommy?

Maybe it has to do with the player - and not the parents.

I didn't reference any players motivated through to success. My post referenced kids driven to failure by overbearing parents who wanted it more than their kids. My references in the post regard kids who are pushed by their parents in a very regimented and critical way. It was also about inappropriate adult behavior.

My son has a passion for every sport he plays. I introduced the sports. I supported him. I never pushed when he was a preteen. The drive and passion had to come from him.

As a high school freshman he's heard me say as he's doing something lazy (which is allowed at times), "What was the goal you claim to have? Can you reach it on a PlayStation?" But it's only a reminder. I'll keep walking.

I have seen kids who were pushed very hard by their fathers who dropped out of the game the first chance they got. Some get rebellious. I know one kid I was told got to college ball and didn't try so he would get cut and his dad would get off his back. His dad had been riding him since LL. The irony is, as a Legion teammate he (the dad) told me he would never treat his kids the way his father pushed him relentlessly. I was told he was worse. I was told the high school and Legion coach considered him the dad from hell.

quote:

Originally posted by RETIRED GM:

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:
I'm a big believer in perspective as it relates to age.

That quote strikes me as funny and completely negates any credibility that you might have thought you had.

So now we know you're a big believer in....perspective. This coming from a guy that has had a lot of opinions on 6U t-ball in this thread yet has absolutely zero experience coaching 6U t-ball.

Thanks for your perspective!

A person needs experience coaching tee ball to understand youth sports? That's funny! Tee ball is hardly baseball. It's kids, half who don't know what they're doing, chasing a ball. I see tee ball more of an aerobic, playground activity than baseball, assuming a kid doesn't just stand there picking his nose. I've coached baseball, softball and basketball from age seven through 18U. Somehow, unless I'm mistaken, ages seven through twelve are preteen youth sports which is the converation ITS and I are having. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Your condescending attitude doesn't lend to your credibility either. I tried to answer ITS question with an honest, genuine response to create a dialog. I'm sorry you don't have the maturity to participate. At least ITS gave a credible response that can lead to dialog.

If the conversation can't be civil, I see no reason to pursue it any further. ITS, thanks for asking the question and your follow up. If you want to pursue my last response, PM me.

RJM,

For what its worth - I do agree with many - if not most - of the points you have made about letting the younger kids have fun - and not pushing them.

quote:

Originally posted by itsinthegame:
RJM,

For what its worth - I do agree with many - if not most - of the points you have made about letting the younger kids have fun - and not pushing them.

Even I agree with the over the top parents. But you seem to categorize everyone who plays tournament ball as over the top.

If you are willing to answer honestly, I will ask the question.

What do you do with a young player who is heads over everyone else around? Whether it be basketball, the s word or baseball? The leagues won't let you move them up and parents get mad when he makes every play, or scores all the point, or steals the ball every time. Shouldn't that kid be given a challenge, If he wants it. What do you do when your kid says if this is all there is I would rather not play. When a 6 year old says, there is no challenge (I don't remember what his exact wording was). I want something more. Why can't I play tournament ball?

quote:

What do you do with a young player who is heads over everyone else around? Whether it be basketball, the s word or baseball? The leagues won't let you move them up and parents get mad when he makes every play, or scores all the point, or steals the ball every time. Shouldn't that kid be given a challenge, If he wants it.

The question is not about talent it's about what's age appropriate. No 8 y/o stands so heads and shoulders above the pack that a creative coach or parent can't keep him challenged. Again I will suggest that based on my experience it is not the child who feels unchallenged it's the parent who feels the child is unchallenged. I work with kids everyday and I have yet to find a second or third grader come to me and say "Hey coach I just don't feel challenged, any suggestions for travel ball?"

quote:

What do you do when your kid says if this is all there is I would rather not play. When a 6 year old says, there is no challenge (I don't remember what his exact wording was). I want something more. Why can't I play tournament ball?

I respectfully offer being around kids every day and having coached hundreds of players over a 30 or so season career I just don't find 6 year olds saying this. If they do I would suggest it is parentally induced. First graders just don't typically say this.

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Connell:
Even I agree with the over the top parents. But you seem to categorize everyone who plays tournament ball as over the top.

If you are willing to answer honestly, I will ask the question.

What do you do with a young player who is heads over everyone else around? Whether it be basketball, the s word or baseball?

What do you do when your kid says if this is all there is I would rather not play. When a 6 year old says, there is no challenge (I don't remember what his exact wording was). I want something more. Why can't I play tournament ball?

Note: Copied post edited for brevity. Entire post is posted a few posts back.

I'm not anti-travel ball for preteens. My son played travel from age 9-12. But it was community based travel ball at 9U and 10U with tournaments no further than fifteen miles away. The kids never played back to back games. They never played more than two in a day. As community based I would call what he did more advanced rec than travel. At 11U and 12U he played some USSSA travel around the LL schedule. His all-star team played into August eliminating some of the schedule for him. When baseball ends we're off on vacation in August. In 11U he filled in for teams that called. At 12U we started building our team for 13U and beyond. When you combine the rec and travel games my son played about 45-50 games per season.

At six my son hadn't played his first game yet. He preferred hanging around the 12U team I coached shagging balls and hitting off the machine after their practice. At 7/8 he played in the machine pitch rec ball league. They played fourteen games. For six weeks after the season we had pickup games twice a week for any kid who wanted to play.

When you talk about the kid who is heads above everyone else at an early age you're talking about my son. He played the three sports you mentioned. He played community based travel in all of them. He was easily the best athlete in his age group. He dominated games. The bigger dominator who played the community travel basketball with him is one of the top ranked high school freshmen basketball players in the country without playing AAU until he was twelve. I was told if my son didn't play pee wee football he would fall behind. He went out for football in middle school. He started by the third game in seventh grade and was named a captain in eighth grade.

I don't believe I've held my son back by not immersing him in heavy duty travel in three sports. And he was asked. He started playing USSSA as his primary team in 13U. We played 50 games in addition to his 12 school games. Starting on the large field I'm an advocate of USSSA or like programs.

Without the early immersion he's getting a varsity baseball tryout as a freshman. If he doesn't make it, he'll start next year as a soph. Without playing select s****r he's been told he'll be the starting goalie (says it's like playing shortstop) on the varsity s****r team next year. Without playing AAU basketball he starts on the freshman basketball team. He'll be on varsity as a junior. We're a basketball school. Sophs rarely make varsity. We're a large school classification.

It's not immersion into a sport that decides the outcome. It's the development of innate athletic ability regardless of the platform. With this I will say 13U and 14U USSSA has helped him develop on the big field. But these are the teen years.

The most dominating kid I ever faced in LL (when that's all there was) was 5'9" and broke helmets with pitches. In high school he was a 5'10" utility player. The chubby, klutzy kid who didn't make all-stars was on the mound to clinch an ALCS game and played in a World Series. By high school he was 6'4", 245 with a 90+ heater.

The legendary player in my son's LL district (everyone plays LL or Ripken here) is the same size as a high school freshman as he was when he was twelve. His LL 78mph, down main street heat is now high school meat. As a hitter he looks like a dancing bear against breaking stuff. He's not hitting the ball, much less rooftops anymore.

Add: As for kids not wanting to play due to the level of competition, in most cases I believe that's a seed that's planted by the parents. Most kids would enjoy succeeding and look forward to higher levels of ball in the future.

I have a question related to topic.

When on the field as a coach of your son's team, did you ask him to call you 'Coach' or did you allow him to call you 'Dad'?

My 7yr old begged me all winter not to make him play coach pitch again after playing it 1 yr. Played no sports, 1 yr of coach pitch and said he didn't want to play if he had to go back to coach pitch. I was dead set against him moving up to kids pitch early, thought he should enjoy a yr of being a star before he moved up. He persisted, I finally gave in and he did very well and had a great time! He's only going to be a kid 1 time, baseball should be fun! Was it the right way? I don't even care, he had fun I had fun watching him have fun!
I really don't give a rats backside how anybody else did it, pretty sure he's not Nolan or Barry but he's having fun!

quote:

Originally posted by larrythompson:
will I be a "daddy ball" guy if I play him at SS quite a bit because he is most suited for it?

I could've sworn the coaches son is supposed to play 2B

OOOH Backdash!!!
That will bring up a can of worms. How many times have you seen the little kid with no range and no arm starting at second and either batting first or second because he is s****** and a good bunter?

Classic Daddy ball.

Since when is s-c-r-a-p-p-y a no no word?

Backdash

How you doing?

Give me a call when you get the chance