Dartmouth

benchwarmer

My Opinion:

If the freshman player has "it" he will play

Matters not whether he is at Dartmouth or any other school

Once you get to the college level it takes time to make the adjustment--just look at the so-called studs in your region and see how many are starters as freshmen at the college level

DARTMOUTH COACHES--I have nothing but the utmeost respect for them and their program

TRhit -

This is a bit off topic, but do colleges like Dartmouth go to showcases like yours to LOOK for players or are they there to SEE players they already know about?

TRhit
Our son just got back from East Cobb and informed us that Dartmouth has expressed a high level of interest in him. While our son is a good student, we never thought he was Ivy League material---4.2 gpa/27 act score. Does Dartmouth accept kids with less than "normal" scores if the student plays a varsity sport. He is interested in them for the academic reputation even if the level of baseball may be slightly lower than some of the other schools he is considering. Also, can anyone speak to the level of play in the Ivy League compared to the level at Furman and UNC-Wilmington.

Thank You for any info you can share

Be careful about Dartmouth in terms of lower than average scores - I don't know where a 27 places your son - but Dartmouth coaches in various sports have been known to promise kids that they are competitive and will get in to the school - and then sometimes they do not. If you want to find out specifically about Dartmouth admissions - buy book caled "A is for Admissions" by Michelle Hernandez. She was a former Dartmouth admissions counselor a while back - and the book explains how to calculate your AI (academic index) which is helpful for the Ivies.

Very good points regarding Dartmouth, NY Mom. Coach Whalen and his staff are very visible at showcases (e.g. Stanford camp, area codes) and aggresively recruit all over the country. They have been known to make a lot of promises and will provide an application to many students. Don't take the receipt of an application as anything more than that. Unless you can qualify for financial aid, Dartmouth is a "pay for play" school - $40,000 a year. The coaches will pitch the academic reputation (which is nothing to sneeze at), but as a parent you need to decide (assuming your son is admitted and you receive little or no financial aid) if the price tag merits attendance. The ivy league is DI, but at the very lower level. The coaching staff submits a list of their top "must have" recruits to the admissions office each year. Those on this list might get in with SAT scores in the mid 1200's and a 3.7. Often schools like Dartmouth will try to lock up players by convincing them to apply to their binding early decision program.

Buddy...Very good perspective.

My son is headed for P in the fall. He's excited.

My son was recruited by Dartmouth, and what Buddy Baseball says is accurate. Class rank was also very important. My son was harmed by class rank, as there were about 30 valedictorians and salutatorians, so automatically he was not in the top 10% of his class with his unweighted 3.7 gpa (over 4.0 weighted) and 1330 SAT. The class rank issue hurt his chances.

Frosty - good points. I failed to mention how important class rank is to many of the schools like Dartmouth.

I'll try to be diplomatic here, but the ivy league schools and others in that self proclaimed "elite" status talk out of both sides of their mouths when recruiting. They'll manipulate admissions anyway they see fit. While they will tell Frosty's son that his exceptional GPA and SAT score are not good enough, they'll push admissions to admit a 3.4, 1210 student who graduated in the top 10% of his inner city school - assuming he can throw 90mph or run the 100 in 9.5. While this goes on at nearly every school, it's the Dartmouths of this country that put on the elite air and then prostitute their own admissions policy.

I am actually checking this out for a friend of mine. His son has been contacted by Dartmouth. He has an act score over 30, is top ten percent of his class, is a legacy and the family has tons of money. Let's say they send him an application and he gets into the school. Does he still have to "make the team" or will they find a spot if he has been recruited? The son is a heck of a player but he plays second base which is not often recruited. He is being recruited by others and would feel awful if he missed a chance to play.

Dartmouth was looking at several middle infielders this past recruiting season for the class entering this fall...so tell your friend to make sure he doesn't find himself one of a half dozen middle infielders on the first day of practice. At DIII schools as well as those in the Ivy and Patriot Leagues there is no scholarship money - consequently there is no investment in the athlete. So, to answer your question, he would have to make the team and it's easier for a school that does not give scholarships to jetison a kid since there is no financial commitment. If the coach really pushed admissions to admit a player, there would be less of a chance that the kid would be cut since the coach has to go back and face admissions each year. If admissions sticks their neck out for a kid and they find out he isn't playing, the coach loses some power the next go around. It sounds like your friend's son may be admissable on his own which in a strange sense could be a negative in that the coach may not have to go out on a limb to admit him.

Buddy - thanks for the reply. It sounds like he is going to have some tough decisions coming up. Either way the kid is a great kid with a great future and my son (they played together last year) said that nobody worked harder. I am sure whatever his final decision is he will land on his feet and find a way to get on the field.

BuddyBaseball,

If you are going to Dartmouth strictly for the baseball, you’re missing the boat. When my son was being recruited, they promised nothing. They do have their “must have” list of players who they would like to gain admission, but as we were told, if the admission people didn’t think the student could handle the academic’s, it didn’t matter what the coaches wanted. IMO this is the way it should be. In my son’s case I do believe the baseball did help him get admitted. After we submitted the FASFA’s and other papers we were told what “our share” would be. It worked out for us. Course it helps that we are poor folks, lol.

Benchwarmer,

Sounds like your friends son has what it takes to gain admission. If I remember right, only about 10% or so that applied gained admission. I imagine it’s like that at many other colleges. As for the baseball, he will receive every opportunity to “make the team”. While they are not “the elite” in DI, they do make every effort to put a quality team on the field. As TR stated, if the boy can play it doesn’t matter if he is a freshman or not. My son was a weekend starter as a freshman. This past year two freshmen were starters with a couple others getting some quality innings. They usually use the pre-Ivy season to get everyone innings. From that they figure out who will, for the most part, start in the Ivy League games. Since there are no athletic scholly's there is no politics involved. Yes, there are recruited players and walk-on's, however as I stated above, if he can play, he will play.

Good luck. My son is having the time of his life and is not sorry he made the decision. Feel free to PM me if you have any other questions.

Frank

quote:

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Originally posted by BuddyBaseball:
Frosty - good points. I failed to mention how important class rank is to many of the schools like Dartmouth.

I'll try to be diplomatic here, but the ivy league schools and others in that self proclaimed "elite" status talk out of both sides of their mouths when recruiting. They'll manipulate admissions anyway they see fit. While they will tell Frosty's son that his exceptional GPA and SAT score are not good enough, they'll push admissions to admit a 3.4, 1210 student who graduated in the top 10% of his inner city school - assuming he can throw 90mph or run the 100 in 9.5. While this goes on at nearly every school, it's the Dartmouths of this country that put on the elite air and then prostitute their own admissions policy.

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So you mean they'll take inner city kids < READ: BLACK> over white kids who are smarter?

Benchwarmer,

There are at least 3 HSBBWeb members who actively post on these boards. FrankF is one, I am another. My boy is a freshman this fall. Frank's son is a junior. Frank was very helpful to me during the recruiting cycle last year.

Contrary to your observation about starters, the starting center fielder and one of their leading pitchers were freshmen last year. As TR & Frank have mentioned, if your freshman is the best player at his position he will play.

I would not disregard Buddy's advice on player positions, but one might take the player's position with a grain of salt when it comes to college team positions. I know one Dartmouth recruit (entering this fall) who played infield in HS & will be an outfielder at Dartmouth. As for the number of infield recruits, check the Dartmouth baseball web site. The public roster lists all of the returning and entering players. You can see exactly how many players there are at each position, including the number of infielders in last year's recruiting class. (good advice in researching any school, BTW)

I could not be more pleased or proud of my son's decision and admission into Dartmouth. I know he is very excited about playing baseball for the coaches there.

As with Frank, please PM me with any questions you might have. Having just been through this process last year the experience is still pretty fresh.

DBG you have a PM

For the most part I would assume that everyone on this board that is involved in the recruiting process feels that the educational component of the collegiate athletic experience is probably the most important. However, playing baseball is critical, too. My advice over the years has always been to go where it "feels right". It has to be a mutual fit. While many "pay for play" schools are outstanding (as Dartmouth certainly is), there has to be a commitment on the part of the school, too. The "privilege" of admission is not a commitment and often leads to serious disappointment. While everyone who plays baseball in college "goes out" for the team at the beginning of the season - athletes who are invested in by the institution have a far greater chance of playing than the "pay to play" player. This is my knock on DIII and those that mirror the DIII philosophy such as the Ivy and Patriot League schools.

BB

I don't think you know as much about the D-III programs you speak of as you want us to believe you do.

For some reason you appear to have an axe to grind where D-III institutions are concerned

We have had a number of players from our team go the Division III route and they are quite happy--they also received grants etc for their academuc abilities--- we also have a had a goodly number of players go IVY and they are happy

The decision eventually is what you make of it--if you have the talent and want it enough and the coach wanted you from the beginning the player will be fine in the IVY and Division III circles---keep in mind that at the schools/conferences that you note the "Recruit Pool" is much smaller due to the academic standards.

Not for nothing but some folks DO put a value on the academics and a college degree from these colleges/universities-- not every kid is looking to be a pro--they simply want to play college ball and get their degree-- if a pro situation occurs at the end of the rainbow all the better but they will still have that degree and that is something they will always have.

You also note "serious disappointment"--- again I say to you if the player has done his homework there is usually no disappointment--sure things happen, for example coaches being fired, but on the whole if the player has done his homework he will be fine

There is also one other factor I see here-- Division III programs abound here in the Northeast where are not as plentiful in other parts of the country, ie AZ. We here in the Northeast are quite proud of the education given by the Division III schools we have in our backyard.

TRhit, I am only expressing my opinions and have made it very clear. The majority of my experience has been with DIII and I feel I have a unique perspective from a coaching and parents view. I have no axe to grind and my statements are not related to how happy someone will be. I have written before that most players are happy no matter where they go. I firmly believe that one's best chance of playing and moving on is in a program that invests in the athlete.

Buddy, have read several posts from you similar to this one and think you are sending the wrong message to folks. The players with the best chance to play are the ones who have carefully picked the best school and program for them after having asked the right questions of the coaches and carefully listened to the answers. They are also the ones who show up in the Fall in the best baseball shape of their lives and are ready to compete at a level most of them have never experienced before. The most important element here is being the best and most productive player at your position. If you are, you will play. If not, you will sit or be cut. In my view,suggesting to a family and player that having a scholarship gives that player an advantage is a mistake. Like it or not there is no substitute for performance at the college level, whether it be DI or DIII.

Infieldad, in a perfect world you would be right on the money with your previous post. Yes, being the best and most productive is extremely important, but you do not understand the politics and finances of collegiate baseball. For the most part, the best do play. However, for over three decades I have witnessed some unfortunate situations. How many "preferred" or "invited" walk-ons actually wind up playing compared to those who are locked in with a scholarship? Run the numbers at your favorite school and you will see my point. All things being equal, you bet having a scholarship gives a player an advantage - and regretably, the more invested the greater the advantage.

Buddy: some observations. My son just completed college career. Have spent a fair amount of time with my son's and several other college coaches and do indeed know some the politics and financial issues to which you speak. In today's world, if a college gives you a scholarship and once you get there you do not perform, the coach leaves or something like that, coaches know how to make the situation obvious. If you have a large scholarship and are not productive, the player will be in a very uncomfortable position. Check out Kentucky last year. Made a coaching change and many of those under scholarship from the prior coaches were gone by the end of the Fall semester. Baseball America just did an article on how college coaches are being fired for not producing winners, something unheard of in the past. I agree that having a scholarship is an initial advantage over a recruited walkon. That said, having a scholarship also increases the coaches expectations for your performance. Bottom line: there are no free rides, scholarship or no. If you have a scholarship, you had best perform or at the end of the year, or even the semester, you won't have one any longer at many of the DI schools. My concern with your posts is the impression that having a scholarship should make a family and player have a sense of "entitlement" or a sense they will be treated "better" than other players. If the player comes in that performs to expectation of the coaching staff, then they will be treated accordingly. If the player comes in out of shape, does not perform and the like, they will also be treated accordingly, scholarship or no in my view.

Buddy (if I may call you that ), if you are talking oranges and apples (DI with scholly's vs Ivy, Patriot, DIII without scholly's) you are correct.

That said, once you enroll at a college without the athletic scholly's, everyone is equal. I realize there are still recruited vs walk-on players, however what I've found (in my limited experience) is that the better players will play regardless of whether recruited or not.

JMHO

Agree 100% with buddy baseball. 4 sons (3 d1 players) later, I have seen the MAJOR advantage a ship gives a player. I can't tell you the # of guys that were clearly better that sat. A small ship will do, if you are the better player,you'll play eventually when they see the bigger $ guy is not producing. Walking on,like "breaking up" is hard to do!

Thanks for the comments - at least someone agrees with me! I respect all your opinions and as of late I've been getting hit hard for mine, but we can agree to disagree. A player who is given a scholarship will be less likely to be shown the door than a walk-on. A coach who gives the scholarship has to report to his AD and no coach wants to be in the position to pull a scholarship without giving the player every chance. This is my point - in the end, the best players will play, but as soxnole commented,(is the "nole" reference to FSU?) many times the better player sits in favor of where the money is being thrown. It's no different than in the major leagues - how many over the hill pitchers are given chance after chance because of the large contract that no one wants to take over or the club does not want to eat.

Buddy, The Nole reference is because I attended Florida State. My son will play there in 06. Sox is for the White Sox .

Just because the Div III and Ivies don't offer schollies does not mean tha everybody "pays the same to play". I played big time Div. III hockey. I have about 20 some odd friends who played Ivy League hockey. None of us received "schollarships". However, my roomate, after all the grants were counted up, paid $450 a semester. My folks paid $21k, and the regular cost was $26k. This wasn't financial aide. Grants, set up from endowments, are basically the Div III/Patriot/Uvy League answer to schollies. They don;t have the same process that an LOI has, but believe me, if you can play, you might not neccessarily have to pay that much. In football or basketball, the full scholly makes a big difference. But in baseball, even the top progrmas offer very few full boats.

My brother has teammates at Tufts who are getting some pretty good financial packages. At a school like Tufts or Williams or Dartmouth or Pomona, the huge endowmwents can create some interesting grants that student-athletes can take advantage of. So, baseball players at non-scholly schools definitely "pay to play", but to say that there is no "financial committment" to them is misleading. Plenty of players at these schools are getting very good financial packages.

Massfan, there is a big difference between an athletic scholarship and a grant-in-aid that comes from an institution's endowment fund. The main difference is the funds are not charged against the athletic department (or specific team's) budget. The financial commitment I have written about is the one that comes from the very budget that is used in the operations of the sport. The endowments that you write about have no bearing on the specific sport and are not a direct financial commitment on the part of the sport. While many of the schools you write of are able to manipulate the grants even in cases where need is not evident, the respective coaches feel no pressure that they may be "wasting" a scholarship if a player does not perform. In reality, schools with large endowments are able to offer far more money in grants than the typical DI school with its 11.7 scholarships.

dbg_fan you have a PM

I thought schollies are only 1 year committments. How does a coach have to worry about wasting a scholly if he can cut it off, increase, or decrease it for any of his players?

I am not disagreeing with you because there is a difference between the "committments" made at these schools. I just laugh at the "pay to play" tag. Just about every Canuck on my hockey team graduated from Hamilton having paid $3 to $6 thousand instead of $100k. I really don't think the s****r team or the tennis team had players who could say the same thing...

Massfan, scholarships are one year commitments that can or cannot be renewed. As I may have posted before, the ethical coaches in this business do whatever they can to avoid pulling a scholarship. Word spreads fast and there are programs that are well known for this and the smart "consumer" will stay away. It is more of a reflection on the coach then the player when a scholarship has to be pulled so most coaches avoid it as much as possible. As far as your example of your friends who received grants for playing hockey...again, this money did not come from an athletic budget. Further, we are comparing apples and oranges here - this website is for high school baseball. While there are examples of grant money being dispursed to baseball players, for the most part, those who can pay, indeed do in order to play.

Frank Thanks for the info. Hope your son having a great summer on the Cape. What Team! Will let you know how it goes.

FrankF:

You have a PM.

Thanks

My final observations in this thread for those of you inquiring about & investigating Dartmouth:

IMO, any conversation or comments about the coach's commitment to recruits (following Buddy's formulas) are irrelevant at Ivy institutions. There is no athletic money involved. Commitment is earned on the practice field & in games.

As Buddy has mentioned, the Dartmouth coaching staff recruits high & low across the nation looking for the best baseball players they can find who can also gain admission into their school. To me that is a testament to the commitment of the coaching staff to field the best team possible year after year.

Dartmouth coaches encourage their players to play summer baseball. Dartmouth has players in the Cape League, NECBL, and elsewhere.

And finally, my son is a good student and a good baseball player. His academic records would qualify him for admission into many highly regarded institutions of higher education. But those same institutions don't accept everybody with good/excellent academic records. Something in your admissions application has to illustrate a unique reason to gain the attention of the admissions staff. For my son baseball was the extra ingredient that earned his admission into Dartmouth. Even if my boy never plays a game in college or beyond, his continued participation in the game of baseball has blessed his life in ways that I would never have imagined.

I'm not sure how this got bumbed up, but since it did, can anyone tell me what happenend to Coach Bishop? We enjoyed meeting him this past fall on a visit to Hanover, but I see that he is no longer listd as an assistant coach on the roster.

Has he resurfaced somewhere else?

Coach Bishop accepted a job in another industry.

dbg,
My son is looking for a good academic school to play baseball. Obviously Dartmouth would be incredble. Can you give me an idea of what kind of grades and scores your son had to get admitted. If you don't want to post could you PM me. Of course I am new (first post) and I will have to figure out how to get a PM...Thanks :0)

GitErDone -

PM reply to you.

Our son was highly recruited by Dartmouth. Coach Whelan did a fine job seeing him play in HS in CT and at many showcases including East Coast in Wilmington, NC. class operation and he plays who can play. If frosh show they can produce, he'll play. We are friends with the CF, who went to our son's HS and he plays as a soph and got many ABs as a frosh. If you're looking for a highly academic school, Dartmouth is among the best in the country. Another great academic school who has a very good coach is Brown. Coach Drabinski is a UCONN alum and former catcher. Dartmouth also runs a coaches hitting, pitching and catching clinic in the winter which our son attended and found to be very good. Coach Whelan explained the finer points of recruiting in addition to running a quality camp. It may be worth your while if your that interested in attending plus it gives the coach a chance to check out your son.

Thanks glacko, and dbg (i responded to your pm...I think..

glacko where did your son end up? Or is he still in the process?

I am trying to understand recruiting for the schools that are primarily academic. My son is an '06 and I have done a lot of research however there is no substitute for first hand experience. Any insights and/or experiences from anyone would be greatly appreciated.