Did I do the right thing.

It sounds to me like a tee ball coach needs to get a grip.

Wow. Sorry dude.

In this case, given all you wrote, yes. You did the right thing. You had a lot of quick thinking and teaching to do. There's thinking of the spirit of the game and age you're working with. Taking a hit away from a 6 year old?

BUT... maybe what I would've done is after quietly conferencing with the PU and explaining what the rule was, allow him to overrule his own call (tell him how) and "save face" a little. Then I'd assist with the explanation to the coaches. Then definitely after the game, tell your partner to sit down with a rule book, and NEVER do something like that again.

I see it happen a lot with newbies, especially on fouls. The ball starts foul and they call it right away instead of waiting for it to stop or go clearly foul. He won't do it again.

I'm sure some of my blue brothers will say that once it's called foul it's foul. (But how many HRs around the fair pole have been reversed?) In this case though? Right thing. That's why you were out there with him.

6 year-old T-ball? Anything goes. Do whatever feels right for the kids.

Serious baseball?

1. Once it's called foul, it's foul forever. The one exception is the HR that snaredrum mentioned (because the ball is dead the moment it clears the fence). That's the one time a foul call can be changed.

2. No umpire is ever permitted to overrule another umpire's judgment. You said you and your partner agreed. That's fine. But a call can't be changed unless the umpire who made the call agrees to the change.

Ill skip over the T ball/umpire aspect and just address the umpiring.

As dash states, "Foul called is foul forever......"

No umpire can overrule another. You can offer an opinion if requested....however dont offer unsolicited opinions...

quote:

Originally posted by piaa_ump:
Ill skip over the T ball/umpire aspect and just address the umpiring.

As dash states, "Foul called is foul forever......"

No umpire can overrule another. You can offer an opinion if requested....however dont offer unsolicited opinions...

Again, the guy didn't know the rule, so in my opinion if fell under a rules interpretation and not a judgment call on whether or not the ball was foul. The ball hit the bag, he saw it hit the bag, I saw it hit the bag, everyone in the stands saw it hit the bag, the coaches and players from both teams saw it hit the bag. I have to strongly disagree, since his call was made in error because he didn't know the rules, it was a correctable. Had he said, "I didn't see it hit the bag" I would have never said a thing. I was under the impression that if a call is made in error because an umpire didn't know the correct ruling, it was correctable.

You are correct - the Umpire In Chief (in FED, the plate umpire regardless of seniority) has jurisdiction over rules matters. If there is disagreement over the application of a rule, the UIC resolves it.

That said, you still can't undo a foul call except on a HR (or in T-ball). See FED 10-1-4. Your partner called it foul prematurely. Once he did that, the ball is dead and the play is over. It doesn't matter that the ball hit the base. If this were a HS game, a protest would be upheld. You can't just say the ball should have been called fair and award bases.

In your situation, don't you think it would have been easier to just let the kid hit the ball again and save the discussion with your partner for the parking lot? You called time (BTW, time was already out), and had a discussion with your partner, probably in the middle of the field with everyone watching, and reversed his call. How do you think that made him feel?

No, I don't think you did the right thing. The right thing would have been to let it go and explain the rule to your partner after the game. And if a coach comes out to question the call, let your partner handle it because it was his call. And if your partner needs help, step in and tell the coach the call is foul, it can't be changed, the kid is still at bat, and now we're going to play baseball. If the coach still has a problem, throw his a$$ out of the game.

quote:

Originally posted by dash_riprock:
You are correct - the Umpire In Chief (in FED, the plate umpire regardless of seniority) has jurisdiction over rules matters. If there is disagreement over the application of a rule, the UIC resolves it.

That said, you still can't undo a foul call except on a HR (or in T-ball). See FED 10-1-4. Your partner called it foul prematurely. Once he did that, the ball is dead and the play is over. It doesn't matter that the ball hit the base. If this were a HS game, a protest would be upheld. You can't just say the ball should have been called fair and award bases.

In your situation, don't you think it would have been easier to just let the kid hit the ball again and save the discussion with your partner for the parking lot? You called time (BTW, time was already out), and had a discussion with your partner, probably in the middle of the field with everyone watching, and reversed his call. How do you think that made him feel?

No, I don't think you did the right thing. The right thing would have been to let it go and explain the rule to your partner after the game. And if a coach comes out to question the call, let your partner handle it because it was his call. And if your partner needs help, step in and tell the coach the call is foul, it can't be changed, the kid is still at bat, and now we're going to play baseball. If the coach still has a problem, throw his a$$ out of the game.

Look, I know the protocol; we're talking about a 6 year old kid that may have had a hit taken away because of an umpire that didn't know this basic rule. I don't care how they do it in the Majors, AAA, NCAA or HS; I'm not going to screw a kid out of a hit to save face. With all due respect, I didn't call time; he did when we called the ball foul.

As far as me being worried about how the grown man behind the plate felt compared to how I would have felt had the kid been screwed our of a hit, duh, let me think.

Something that has always bothered me about the "umpire fraternity" is their willingness to cover their partner’s *** even if they know the guy's dead wrong. To me it's less of an assault on the integrity of the game and the officials, to admit a mistake and correct it when possible, than to let it go, to save face, then discuss it after the game, when it's after the fact and the damage has already been done. At this level my first concern is that the kids have a good time, my second is that we as umpires do a good job, and if that means I have to admit I made a mistake I'm going to do it, swollow my pride and do the right thing. I'm not too big to admit I blew a call, and if it's a rules issue, and I can correct it, I'm going to. I would be more likely to toss a coach who insisted that I screw a kid out of a hit when he knew darn good and well it was the wrong call, than a coach, who was fighting for his kid because of an umpire blowing a call because he didn't know the rule, but that's just me.

I appreciate the input, and I guess on this one, at this level, we can just agree to disagree.

I did not suggest covering your partner's ***. It was a bad call, no doubt about it. Humans make mistakes. Bad calls are part of the game. This one you can't change - fair/foul is, by rule, a judgment call. Screw the kid out of a hit? It's a do-over. You're giving him a chance to get another one. 6 year-olds don't care about the score, who wins, or their batting average. 6 is also a perfect age to learn that sometimes umpires blow calls, but you accept it without whining and move on. Both coaches should be setting that example, and if either one of them came out to argue, he would be on a short leash.

But I know your intentions were indeed honorable, and we can agree to disagree.

I think you may have missed a few points....

If you go back a few posts to dash's response....he states:

"6 year-old T-ball? Anything goes. Do whatever feels right for the kids."

But then qualifies his next statements with:

Serious baseball?

Then goes on to state correctly what we as HS and college umpires do......

In my response, I clearly step around the whole T-ball thing and and responded only to the level of baseball that I do and the accepted way to handle the situation...........

You go on to say
"Something that has always bothered me about the "umpire fraternity" is their willingness to cover their partner’s *** even if they know the guy's dead wrong"

In this instance neither of us is trying to cover anything........we are only doing what the rule book tells us to do.......

Under NFHS rules, please read rule 10-2-article 4

"any umpires decision which involves judgment, such as whether a ball is fair or foul, whether a pitch is a strike or ball, or whether a runner is safe or out is final.

But if there is a reasonable doubt about some decision being in conflict with the rule, the coach or captain may ask that the correct ruling be made.

The umpire making the decision may ask another umpire for information before making a final decision. No umpire shall criticize or interfere with another umpires decision unless asked by the one making it."

In our levels of baseball, our opinions and mechanics are correct........

in T-ball....thats up to you

Just my .02

quote:

You called time (BTW, time was already out), and had a discussion with your partner, probably in the middle of the field with everyone watching, and reversed his call. How do you think that made him feel?

Sorry, I just took that as, I should have been more concerned with my partners' feelings than getting the call correct.

quote:

It's a do-over. You're giving him a chance to get another one.

In our league you get 3 foul balls and your out, this was the 3rd foul ball, so he would not have had a "do over".

quote:

This one you can't change - fair/foul is, by rule, a judgment call

Here's where I have the issue, I agree 100% with the above quote, IF the guy making the call, knows the rules in regards to calling a ball fair or foul.
As soon as he told me he thought since the ball hit foul first it was a foul ball, and that he saw it hit the base,it no longer became a "judgement call", because he already admitted in his "judgement" the ball hit the base, ball hits the base, it's fair.

Anyway thanks for your input, I appreciate it.

quote:

Originally posted by cccsdad:

In our league you get 3 foul balls and your out, this was the 3rd foul ball, so he would not have had a "do over".

Sounds to me like a perfect place for the automatic do-over. BTW: how do you hit 3 foul balls off a tee?

quote:

Here's where I have the issue, I agree 100% with the above quote, IF the guy making the call, knows the rules in regards to calling a ball fair or foul.
As soon as he told me he thought since the ball hit foul first it was a foul ball, and that he saw it hit the base,it no longer became a "judgement call", because he already admitted in his "judgement" the ball hit the base, ball hits the base, it's fair.

No can do. What if the kid stopped running when the ball was called foul (maybe he did) and was thrown out at 1st? Now what? I would tell the coaches "we f'ed up. The ball should have been called fair, but we can't make it fair so we're going to do it over." If they argue with that, I remind them that it's 6 year-old T-ball. If they persist, then C-ya.

In any event, you obviously care about giving the kids a good game. My hat's off to you for that.

quote:

If you go back a few posts to dash's response....he states:

"6 year-old T-ball? Anything goes. Do whatever feels right for the kids."

But then he followed that up with.

quote:

You called time (BTW, time was already out), and had a discussion with your partner, probably in the middle of the field with everyone watching, and reversed his call. How do you think that made him feel?

That kind of voids the first comment.

quote:

"any umpires decision which involves judgment, such as whether a ball is fair or foul, whether a pitch is a strike or ball, or whether a runner is safe or out is final.

Agreed 100% so long as his "judgement" was made due to his understanding of the rules. In other words, if he called it a foul ball beacause in his "judgement" the ball didn't touch the base, even if I saw it hit the base, , I wouldn't have said anything. But he SAW the ball hit the base, the rules...

quote:

we are only doing what the rule book tells us to do.......

the rules say if the ball hits the base, it's a fair ball, yes? His call was not made because in his judgement, the ball didn't hit the base, it was made because, due to his lack of understanding of the rules.

quote:

we are only doing what the rule book tells us to do.......

Anyway I fully understand at the upper levels, how this would be called, I just had a problem when he went into the whole

quote:

You called time (BTW, time was already out), and had a discussion with your partner, probably in the middle of the field with everyone watching, and reversed his call. How do you think that made him feel?

Issue, I felt (wrongly so I guess) that he was saying I should have been more concerned for my partners feelings, than getting the call right.

Anyway, I think this horse has officially been beaten to death.

Nothing like a ****ing contest over a call in a t-ball game.

quote:

Originally posted by ironhorse:
Nothing like a ****ing contest over a call in a t-ball game.

Well put. My bladder is empty anyway.

IT may have been the right call but it was the wrong call by fed rules anyway. once a ball is called foul it is a foul ball. Who's to say that because the third baseman heard the foul call he gave up on the play where as if it had still been live he could have picked the ball up and got the out at first. Sorry guys and girls, once called foul it is a foul unless again by fed rules it is an obvious ball caught for and out in foul territory.

Well, to be honest, dash/et al are completely correct here. They gave you the REAL answer for REAL baseball. Once foul, thats it. The calling umpire has to live with it. You dont unring that bell.

In your case, since it isnt real baseball, you can rule about anything you can get away with, including what you did. Im not being sarcastic here...since as you yourself said, T-ball doesnt really need umpiring, who really cares what the umpires rule?

I wouldnt waste 5 mins of my life worrying over a call in a T-ball game, as long as the kids have fun. You have license to be 'fair' and all that, even when being 'fair' doesnt exactly match the rules. Thats kinda what you did here.

its for the kids, man

quote:

Originally posted by LonBlue67:
Well, to be honest, dash/et al are completely correct here. They gave you the REAL answer for REAL baseball. Once foul, thats it. The calling umpire has to live with it. You dont unring that bell.

In your case, since it isnt real baseball, you can rule about anything you can get away with, including what you did. Im not being sarcastic here...since as you yourself said, T-ball doesnt really need umpiring, who really cares what the umpires rule?

I wouldnt waste 5 mins of my life worrying over a call in a T-ball game, as long as the kids have fun. You have license to be 'fair' and all that, even when being 'fair' doesnt exactly match the rules. Thats kinda what you did here.

its for the kids, man

Very well said. I probably should have just turned it down a notch, I didn't mean for this to turn into a ****ing contest.

You're passionate about it. That's a good thing. We need more umps like that.

dash:

It is real easy for a 5 or 6 year old to hit 3 foul balls in a row. You need to get out more.

TW344