Difference in Philosophys

Unless what the HS coaches are asking will hurt your son, I see it as two choices...

Get on board with their program or don't.  

Has your son tried sitting down and talking with the HS coaches to understand where they are coming from?  If not I would suggest that.  If they are still steadfast in their ways, not much you can do.

Uh, this seems simple.....if he wants to play HS he's going to have to do what they say (or at least make it seem like he is)    What is the biggest difference?  He's a sophomore....what did he play as a freshman?  If he's new to the program, I think what you'll likely find is if he is able to contribute, the HS coach's issues with TBR will go away.  It makes them look good if things go well, and they have an "excuse" if things don't.....lol

That being said, the "pitching coach" at my son's HS had no absolutely no idea what he was doing and my son had been coached by former MLB pitchers at 12U and 13U so my answer is based on that....lol. 

LuvMyKids posted:

Hello everyone,

I did a search on this topic and was unable find anything on this site, so here goes.

What do you do when the HS HC and PC coach have a different pitching training philosophy than you and your player?

Just to give a little background, son (2020) attended the Texas Baseball Ranch. The HS coaching staff are not fans of their program. We are on board with TBR 100%.

Son has been basically been told he will do what they (HS staff) want.

All comments and responses are appreciated.

Thanks

 

 

I may be able to help if you send me a PM.  I'm familiar with TBR and may be familiar with your HS program.  Either way, I have encountered this problem before.

joes87 posted:

Unless what the HS coaches are asking will hurt your son, I see it as two choices...

Get on board with their program or don't.  

Has your son tried sitting down and talking with the HS coaches to understand where they are coming from?  If not I would suggest that.  If they are still steadfast in their ways, not much you can do.

JOES87,

Yes, son tried to discuss but it went nowhere. Sons approach is to do what is asked of him when under their direction, but still work on his own. Last season he was told to not work with an outside instructor in season, which he honored and it was a big mistake. Dominant to start the season because of ramp up work prior to season. Took a nose dive mid-season on. Son did not get any mound work in season at practice, none and it showed. I take full responsibility, I should have done something and got him work outside of HS practice. He was not the only one, ALL non-varsity pitchers didn't get any practice bump time.

One thing I need to make clear. My intent is not to bash sons HS coach in any way shop or form. He likes the program and he has received plenty of work as a position player. The first thing I learned sons freshmen year was that varsity rules, I get it.

The bottom line is that, if you want to play at the next level, it requires more time spent on your craft than will be required of you within the amount of time allotted to high school practices. Do what your HS coaches want in the short amount of time they have you. Do the minimum amount required and accentuate it with your TBR stuff on your own time. The high school season is relatively short. Suck it up and nod a lot. 

roothog66 posted:

The bottom line is that, if you want to play at the next level, it requires more time spent on your craft than will be required of you within the amount of time allotted to high school practices. Do what your HS coaches want in the short amount of time they have you. Do the minimum amount required and accentuate it with your TBR stuff on your own time. The high school season is relatively short. Suck it up and nod a lot. 

great advice.  My son went through similar issue between hs staff and hitting instruction, and he handled it as Root states above. Grin and bear it until hs season is over.

Do you have a strong feeling?   If I felt strongly something was best for my son NO ONE could move me off it.  Especially baseball where high school ball is just so optional.  

OP - can you please elaborate as to what the HS coaches want your son to do that is different than what the TBR folks say to do?  

Playing for your high school, representing your community, with teammates you've known for many years, in some cases your entire childhood, is something special.

Reality is a high school coach (good or bad) has a tremendous amount of power in helping or hindering for the next level.  I know of one player who was basically buried on the bench for 2 years.  It was rumored a personality clash.  He ended up going as a walk on to a Power-5 school, made the team, became a starter and eventually an All-American.  He is now in the pros.  HC wanted my son to use his instructor.  We let it die down a bit and continued with his current instructor on the side.  Luckily son was able to put up good numbers thus became a moot point.  HC still tried to get him to switch but couldn't argue with stats.  Same thing with D1 so don't think it's just HS.  Go with who the both of you feel will be most beneficial.  As long as he produces there is little argument.  

If a coach is really tremendous and is able to see things like a pro, the following won't work.  Having said that:

A heckuva lot of coaches won't even notice if you just say "yes sir" and keep doing it the same way you did before.  In fact they'll say "Yep, good, that's better".

The three areas where you will encounter this issue is pitching, hitting and catching.

As HS doesn't want to hear from the parent, I would say have the kid try first.  Unfortunately this is a situation  that I think a parent SHOULD get involved if need be.  Obviously feelings and egos get involved way to much with coaches.  Its not like your athlete is changing up assignments that are used by his other team or anything.  Its mechanics.  I would appreciate the athlete seeking additional help.  And if I were to make a suggestion or request a mechanics change and he says he prefers to do it this way....Take note...And if the coach feels that it is really holding back his accuracy or speed, tell him.  If the kid refuses, than its on him and his lack of playing time.  But simply because it isnt HIS way?  coach is dead wrong.

Ran into this issue catching.  My son was playing legion (more so to play with friends during the summer and travel for competition).  Among other issues such as overuse, he did not react well to an assistant coach trying to change his mechanics.  He tossed out two from the dish and they stole none one game and the next the coach was trying to change his whole approach.  T politely advised the coach if he could continue to do it the way his former coach (mlb experienced catcher) has instructed him.  The coach yelled at him and sat him for a game.  T advised the head coach that he was there more out of courtesy and if the assistant tried that again he would walk.  

It only half solved the problem and the assistant tried to find a replacement for T but that experiment was short lived. And since we play enough on the weekends, we wont play legion anymore. This assistant got into it with the head coach of legion and while I was down helping coach MS ball, he also argued with the head middle school coach.  some guys...sheesh. 

With HS ball...totally different beast.      It helps we have some family that are HS coaches and we do occasionally run into the AD from time to time who is always open for a "general" inquiry on how to handle things.....

3and2Fastball posted:

If a coach is really tremendous and is able to see things like a pro, the following won't work.  Having said that:

A heckuva lot of coaches won't even notice if you just say "yes sir" and keep doing it the same way you did before.  In fact they'll say "Yep, good, that's better".

 

EXACTLY!!!

Now, let me come at this from a different way. I have often been the coach with some kid who was seeing an instructor who taught things I didn't agree with and didn't want done. Here is my philosophy. I'll teach you what I know and if you decide to go with your guru, that's your decision, but you better not stumble. I'll stand behind a kid who is slumping, but working hard on what I happen to believe will help. You have to understand, though, that if you're slumping and you're working on things I think are counter-productive or you don't want to follow the things that I think will help you, then your going to find yourself on the bench pretty soon. If what you are doing, though, works, I'll pay attention and may even steal it. 

roothog66 posted:

Now, let me come at this from a different way. I have often been the coach with some kid who was seeing an instructor who taught things I didn't agree with and didn't want done. Here is my philosophy. I'll teach you what I know and if you decide to go with your guru, that's your decision, but you better not stumble. I'll stand behind a kid who is slumping, but working hard on what I happen to believe will help. You have to understand, though, that if you're slumping and you're working on things I think are counter-productive or you don't want to follow the things that I think will help you, then your going to find yourself on the bench pretty soon. If what you are doing, though, works, I'll pay attention and may even steal it. 

This is a much more accurate perspective from the coach's side than anything else posted thus far.  The OP problem is a real one.  Son hasn't excelled on the field enough yet to have leverage with the HS coach.  We don't know enough about the specific differences in question yet and don't know what it is that the HS coach doesn't like about TBR teachings.   But, it must be something specific and noticeable for it to be at this point.  So, I don't think this is one of those scenarios where the "nod and agree and then do what you want" is gonna work.  (Personally, I don't think that's great advice anyway, but that's for another discussion.)  

Luvmykids, I, like others, would like to know those specifics that HS coach doesn't like about TBR if you are comfortable sharing.  I think that's the only way you can get any decent actionable advice here.  

3and2Fastball posted:

OP - can you please elaborate as to what the HS coaches want your son to do that is different than what the TBR folks say to do?  

Playing for your high school, representing your community, with teammates you've known for many years, in some cases your entire childhood, is something special.

I sent you a PM..... thanks

The higher the level you play the more likely that happens and the more the coaches will expect you to follow. Best is probably to do what they want and then do the other stuff privately. 

If you tell them they are wrong you can do that but then you better never have a slump...

And in college and pro ball it gets worse so don't expect that problem to ever go away.

Had similar situation with catcher son.  I agree with previous comments if you want to compete at the next level you must work outside of the normal HS hours.  It my opinion it is very important to communicate with the outside person you are using exactly what they are doing during HS hours.  It is a fine line between extra work and over work, especially for Pitchers. 

In regards to coaches who insist on no outside work, in my opinion it will be a personal decision by parent and player.  You risk suffering consequences of HS Coach versus gaining additional knowledge and better prepare you for next level.

I can honestly say my son would not have signed Div 1 scholarship without outside work from professional catcher we used.  I did not have the expertise having never caught nor did anyone on the HS coaching staff have catcher experience.  This doesn't even consider the additional contacts the outside instructor had with many college coaches.  I never had a problem with understanding what my instructional limitations were and to seek outside experts.  Unfortunately some HS coaches do.  Not a blanket statement for all HS coaches.  Some HS coaches are very qualified to coach all aspects of the game.

Dominik85 posted:

The higher the level you play the more likely that happens and the more the coaches will expect you to follow. Best is probably to do what they want and then do the other stuff privately. 

If you tell them they are wrong you can do that but then you better never have a slump...

And in college and pro ball it gets worse so don't expect that problem to ever go away.

 

College and Pro ball they are now your employers, you have little choice but to do as told.  Not quite sure if that applies to high school though.  IMHO if my kid fails at my choice instructors, nobody to blame but myself.  My decision, my responsibility, my result.  I'm the one reading a site like this to try to get him into college, or supporting him for the next 20 plus years.  A high school coach is done with him after 1-4 years.  I wish more high school coaches were willing to work with the player, to teach him the game, to improve his game.  But it should be an option, not a requirement to use my way or else.  My previous post basically was because a player didn't see eye to eye with "the program" he was buried.  It boggles my mind one person can pretty much determine the life of an athlete or student.  

Very slippery road.  As Root points out you will have a very short rope.  Many times listening to these conversations from parents I hear a parent wanting to place blame on sons lack of performance.  Always very interesting when the rest of the starters are performing at a high level under the same coaching. 

The way it usually works is if the kid produces he gets to do it his way. If he doesn't he better listen to the coach. My son's high school coach had personal issues with his hitting coach. Knew him and hated him. My son produced opening day doing it his way and continued to hit. End of issue.

Thanks everyone for your responses. This is why I love this site.

Rothog66 thanks for sharing your perspective.

cabbagedad posted:

roothog66 posted:

Now, let me come at this from a different way. I have often been the coach with some kid who was seeing an instructor who taught things I didn't agree with and didn't want done. Here is my philosophy. I'll teach you what I know and if you decide to go with your guru, that's your decision, but you better not stumble. I'll stand behind a kid who is slumping, but working hard on what I happen to believe will help. You have to understand, though, that if you're slumping and you're working on things I think are counter-productive or you don't want to follow the things that I think will help you, then your going to find yourself on the bench pretty soon. If what you are doing, though, works, I'll pay attention and may even steal it. 

This is a much more accurate perspective from the coach's side than anything else posted thus far.  The OP problem is a real one.  Son hasn't excelled on the field enough yet to have leverage with the HS coach.  We don't know enough about the specific differences in question yet and don't know what it is that the HS coach doesn't like about TBR teachings.   But, it must be something specific and noticeable for it to be at this point.  So, I don't think this is one of those scenarios where the "nod and agree and then do what you want" is gonna work.  (Personally, I don't think that's great advice anyway, but that's for another discussion.)  

Luvmykids, I, like others, would like to know those specifics that HS coach doesn't like about TBR if you are comfortable sharing.  I think that's the only way you can get any decent actionable advice here.  

I sent you a PM....

Trust In Him posted:

Dominik85 posted:

The higher the level you play the more likely that happens and the more the coaches will expect you to follow. Best is probably to do what they want and then do the other stuff privately. 

If you tell them they are wrong you can do that but then you better never have a slump...

And in college and pro ball it gets worse so don't expect that problem to ever go away.

 

College and Pro ball they are now your employers, you have little choice but to do as told.  Not quite sure if that applies to high school though.  IMHO if my kid fails at my choice instructors, nobody to blame but myself.  My decision, my responsibility, my result.  I'm the one reading a site like this to try to get him into college, or supporting him for the next 20 plus years.  A high school coach is done with him after 1-4 years.  I wish more high school coaches were willing to work with the player, to teach him the game, to improve his game.  But it should be an option, not a requirement to use my way or else.  My previous post basically was because a player didn't see eye to eye with "the program" he was buried.  It boggles my mind one person can pretty much determine the life of an athlete or student.  

It depends. I don't think the hs coach can say anything about what you do outside of team practices and outside season but you can't do your own training during team practice.

I think the Rockies pitcher who was trained by dirtberry marshall style said he was allowed to do it but not in front of his teammates and most hs coaches would probably do it like that. As long you produce you can do what you want in your free time but you can't really do your own workout during team practice (stuff like band warmup is probably ok though)

It's simple , if your son wants to pitch in HS he'll need to follow the HS program as outlined . It's the same in College. Kids can do the ranch or driveline but once they're on campus , they're expected to follow the program routine .

Another thought---  This spring when my son was a freshman and he was catching bullpens.....The AD was helping out (former college catcher) and he asked my son where he learned to catch cause he was impressed with his technique....

.....Obviously it wasn't with the HS nor the MS programs.....

I guess it all just depends on the coach's ego whether or not he accepts an athlete receiving additional training outside the HS program.  As our head coach is totally immersed in BOYS BASKETBALL for the next 4 months, I personally say he has NO say in it.  

Kid went to the first baseball fall workout this week and he said 4 other people showed and one walked off with his GF after 30 mts.  No coach...no assistant coach....no real senior leadership.....

And if the coach wants to then BITCH about the extra work he is getting?  Yea....I would get involved as will the AD and the school board.  This is my kids dream to play somewhere in college.  I see no one in the HS program committed to helping these kids make this dream a reality.  Just a HC trying to make 4 grand for basketball and 4 grand for baseball.

Kevin A posted:

Another thought---  This spring when my son was a freshman and he was catching bullpens.....The AD was helping out (former college catcher) and he asked my son where he learned to catch cause he was impressed with his technique....

.....Obviously it wasn't with the HS nor the MS programs.....

I guess it all just depends on the coach's ego whether or not he accepts an athlete receiving additional training outside the HS program.  As our head coach is totally immersed in BOYS BASKETBALL for the next 4 months, I personally say he has NO say in it.  

Kid went to the first baseball fall workout this week and he said 4 other people showed and one walked off with his GF after 30 mts.  No coach...no assistant coach....no real senior leadership.....

And if the coach wants to then BITCH about the extra work he is getting?  Yea....I would get involved as will the AD and the school board.  This is my kids dream to play somewhere in college.  I see no one in the HS program committed to helping these kids make this dream a reality.  Just a HC trying to make 4 grand for basketball and 4 grand for baseball.

unfortunately that's the case in many programs in our area, if you have a dedicated coach that's a student of the game you are truly fortunate.    in western pa, they don't put up with that in football, but other sports are a crapshoot.

Just a quick story about doing what the HS coach says.  After being benched for two games with no explanation my son was put back in the starting line up.  He went 3 for 4 and promptly got a butt chewing after the game.  Turns out the coach does not like to play small ball and thats why my kid was benched.  The butt chewing was over situational hitting.  Coach would rather see the kids swinging for the fences then going opo or pulling the ball based on the situation.  Next game son goes 1 for 4 and I think "Thats it, he's out of the line up again".  Coach calls him over after the game and lets him know that he was impressed with his approach at the plate and appreciates the fact that he listen to him.  From that point forward he was cemented in the line up and did not come out of the game.

Honestly, except for very big things most coaches don't know if you're doing what they told you or not other than your own admissions because most don't have the time or knowledge to video and actually look at what a player is doing.

pabaseballdad posted:

Kevin A posted:

Another thought---  This spring when my son was a freshman and he was catching bullpens.....The AD was helping out (former college catcher) and he asked my son where he learned to catch cause he was impressed with his technique....

.....Obviously it wasn't with the HS nor the MS programs.....

I guess it all just depends on the coach's ego whether or not he accepts an athlete receiving additional training outside the HS program.  As our head coach is totally immersed in BOYS BASKETBALL for the next 4 months, I personally say he has NO say in it.  

Kid went to the first baseball fall workout this week and he said 4 other people showed and one walked off with his GF after 30 mts.  No coach...no assistant coach....no real senior leadership.....

And if the coach wants to then BITCH about the extra work he is getting?  Yea....I would get involved as will the AD and the school board.  This is my kids dream to play somewhere in college.  I see no one in the HS program committed to helping these kids make this dream a reality.  Just a HC trying to make 4 grand for basketball and 4 grand for baseball.

unfortunately that's the case in many programs in our area, if you have a dedicated coach that's a student of the game you are truly fortunate.    in western pa, they don't put up with that in football, but other sports are a crapshoot.

so my earlier post was to 'grin and bear it'.  that was a bit flippant, I realize that.   every situation is different.   For my son's situation it was the right thing to do.  Our HS program is not taken seriously.  Coaching staff was not engaged, heck the head coach is retired, and he takes off and goes to Florida for most of the winter through the month leading up to tryouts.  Then he has them for march, april, may, and our season is a total of 20 games, then you have single elimination playoffs. 

My son had been playing high level summer baseball for some time, and had been working with professional hitting instructor, as well as working with a mentor of his that had been a three year starter at Duke, and played outfield in the minors for several years.    So when the HS staff was telling all the kids to "hit the ball on the ground" and it was contrary to what was being taught by the outside help, the decision was easy- grin and bear it, be respectful and keep hitting the way you hit. 

Now, he is a freshman in college.  last week I spoke to him and we were talking about how things are going, I asked him if they were trying to change anything, he said, not on hitting, but coach would like me to shorten my arm action up a bit-   my response was "why?"   he shut me down immediately  " I don't know dad, but I'm doing whatever they say" , I laughed, and said "good plan".

The reality for many people is that high school baseball is a very disappointing experience.  There are 2 primary reasons for this in my opinion.  First of all, there is a tremendous shortage of good high school baseball coaches. ( I know that there are good HS coaches on this board who are gonna object to some of these comments.  But understand that I'm not talking about you.  I'm talking about what else is out there that the majority of people end up experiencing). I have first hand experience with 2 HS programs in a major metropolitan area in a baseball hotbed state - and these 2 schools are at the highest classification. The profile of the HC at these 2 schools is exactly the same.  He played HS baseball at an uncompetitive low level HS - and that is the extent of his playing experience.  He attended a 2nd tier university and got a PE degree, then got a job in a major school district as an elementary school PE teacher. He began as a volunteer asst. baseball coach at one of the high schools - in hopes of that turning into a paid position.  Over time coaches leave and he bumps up the ladder as a result of attrition - not performance.  This goes on long enough and before you know it he is the HC.  He has his dream job,  and he is in way over his head. Guess who cares about that ? Nobody. But guess what, unless he commits a crime he is not going anywhere. He doesn't know the game well enough to teach it and doesn't know how to build a program.  His primary concern is keeping his dream job and his decisions are made based on that. He doesn't coach in the summer and doesn't follow the kids in his program during their summer team play.  He takes the summer off, with the exception of a camp for grade school kids that is designed to supplement his income. He doesn't know how to evaluate talent and therefore cant determine who are the best players. Therefore, his default is to play upperclassmen.  And he punches a time clock.  That is the current state of HS baseball coaching at many high schools...................................................................................................................... Now let's look at the other side of the equation.  More than ever, kids entering HS programs have grown up playing select baseball.  Many have played on good teams and some have had good coaching and good instruction. Families have spent thousands of dollars getting their son ready to play HS baseball (and maybe beyond).  Only to get there and find that the HS coaching staff is inept - or that nobody even cares about baseball at their HS.  The letdown is huge - and some parents go crazy.  How can this be ?!? Someone has to be to blame !! Unfortunately, that someone is probably you - the parent. Here is why - you have unrealistic expectations. Maybe even entitlement issues - after all you have spent all that money to get your kid prepared for HS baseball.   And if all that isn't bad enough you likely have projected these issues onto your kid.  In its current state of existence select baseball is pay for play.  But there is nothing select about it. Virtually anyone that can pay the requisite fees will be placed on a team in most any organization.  There are too many teams with too many players and the talent has been watered down. Problem is your select coach has for years been telling you how good your kid is (in order to keep collecting fees).  After years of hearing it you believe it - and so does your kid. Problem is that doesn't make it true. What it does do, however, is set very unrealistic expectations about playing time, making varsity, etc. COMBINE UNREALISTIC EXPECTATIONS WITH POOR COACHING AND YOU HAVE A RECIPE FOR DISASTER ! Parents, you need to do a better job.  Would you put $ 30,000 in a real estate investment without doing due diligence? Probably not. But you will spend the same amount over 6 years on select baseball based on unsubstantiated promises? Really?? Why would you do that?  What is it about baseball?? Here is my opinion - you aren't going to like it. All of you think you know what you are doing, and most of you don't. You think you know the game - and you don't.  You think you are realistic about your sons ability - and you aren't. Someone said to me that you either know the game or you don't - and I believe that. But there are some prerequisites that go along with being in the "knowing about the game" category. You have to have grown up with it, played it, coached it, and taught it - the higher level the better. You don't learn the game by osmosis. Just because you watch your kid play doesn't mean you know the game. Think of it this way - just because you watch a Dr. perform a surgery doesn't mean you now know how to do it - or even that you understand what you just watched. Baseball isn't any different. So accept the fact that many of you don't know the game as well as you think you do - and maybe you will make better decisions. One of my favorite movie quotes is from Moneyball, when they flash on the screen, "Its amazing how much you don't know about a game you have been playing your entire life" - Mickey Mantle.  Enough said. 

Now that I'm off my soapbox I will offer some practical advice to those that are frustrated with what is going on at their HS.  Your primary goal becomes  to not let the HS program set you back.  Get work outside the program to the extent that is necessary in order to keep moving forward. But look for a way to help the HS program be better.  This is far more productive than complaining. Put you own resources to work - whatever they are.  Help raise money, provide labor & materials, etc.  Do whatever you can to help!  Regarding what you spend on baseball - do a reality check.  Get more realistic. Do a cost-benefit analysis prior to major expenditures.  Above all, relax.  Get a prescription for medical marijuana if you have to.  It will all work out.

I think this & many other similar issues surrounding these years all boil down to this: Do what YOU & your PLAYER think is best, given the circumstances. There will be consequences regardless of the decision, but make the decision that allows you to best live with the consequences.

With respect to the OP's original question & comments, I would ask myself the following questions:

Why am I 100% in on the Woolforth program? What elements are the most attractive to me in this program? Is there overlap with this program & the HS program? Can he do both or would that be too much? Is there a compromise where he complies with the HS program & does some or all of the Woolforth program on the side?  

Based on the OP's comments, it appears that the Freshman experience was that there is no real HS program to conflict, so in that case, clearly, the decision would be to go with your program that at least contains some mound time & just keep it to yourself. The danger would come when he has thrown on the side & then suddenly gets asked to perform in the HS setting with no rest. Then you have to navigate, but the player has no chance to improve if there is no mound program with the JV crew. If confronted by a coach about throwing on the side, outside of HS, my reply would be that I'm trying to improve. If this is a problem for a coach who provides zero opportunity then you are unfortunately in the wrong spot & have to make an adjustment out of it.

Trust In Him posted: …Luckily son was able to put up good numbers thus became a moot point.  HC still tried to get him to switch but couldn't argue with stats.  Same thing with D1 so don't think it's just HS.  Go with who the both of you feel will be most beneficial.  As long as he produces there is little argument.  

 There it is in a nutshell. Good or bad, coaches aren’t stupid! If the team is doing well, or personal numbers are excellent, they aren’t gonna cut off their nose to spite their face! Do what you believe is in your best interest and be prepared to suffer the consequences if it turns out badly. It’s just one of millions of life choices and not one of life or death.

There is another extreme side to this topic also.  Probably deserves it's own topic thread.  A little reluctant to even bring it up, but to keep it somewhat pc....If a HC isn't basing his sole decisions on talent alone, ever wonder what else there is?

Trust In Him posted:

There is another extreme side to this topic also.  Probably deserves it's own topic thread.  A little reluctant to even bring it up, but to keep it somewhat pc....If a HC isn't basing his sole decisions on talent alone, ever wonder what else there is?

Character 

Trust In Him posted:

There is another extreme side to this topic also.  Probably deserves it's own topic thread.  A little reluctant to even bring it up, but to keep it somewhat pc....If a HC isn't basing his sole decisions on talent alone, ever wonder what else there is?

Character, grades, commitment, intelligence.....

Trust In Him posted: There is another extreme side to this topic also.  Probably deserves it's own topic thread.  A little reluctant to even bring it up, but to keep it somewhat pc....If a HC isn't basing his sole decisions on talent alone, ever wonder what else there is?

 I don’t mind talent being how decisions are made, as long as talent is defined. If it can’t be defined it can’t be measured, and if can’t be measured how can it be used to make valid decisions?

Stats4Gnats posted:

Trust In Him posted: There is another extreme side to this topic also.  Probably deserves it's own topic thread.  A little reluctant to even bring it up, but to keep it somewhat pc....If a HC isn't basing his sole decisions on talent alone, ever wonder what else there is?

 I don’t mind talent being how decisions are made, as long as talent is defined. If it can’t be defined it can’t be measured, and if can’t be measured how can it be used to make valid decisions?

Here is a story of a talented player that feels he his getting the shaft in HS.  The player, a starting infielder, was suspended from practice for a week.  At that point, the team was a .500 club.  The less talented player that filled his spot fit well into the line up.  The team won their two games that week against teams they expected to lose against.  The more talented player never earned his spot back and the team went on a 5 game winning streak and in the end almost winning a very good HS division.  

The "more" talented player got spot time for the remaining season.  Every stat would suggest that the more talented player was better than his replacement.  He is a better fielder, hitter, stronger arm, and faster.  The reality is he is a crappy teammate.  He plays for himself, talks down to his teammates, and generally disregards the coaches.  

In essence, the team was better with a more talented player on the bench than on the field.  

Stats4Gnats posted:

Trust In Him posted: There is another extreme side to this topic also.  Probably deserves it's own topic thread.  A little reluctant to even bring it up, but to keep it somewhat pc....If a HC isn't basing his sole decisions on talent alone, ever wonder what else there is?

 I don’t mind talent being how decisions are made, as long as talent is defined. If it can’t be defined it can’t be measured, and if can’t be measured how can it be used to make valid decisions?

Because some decisions simply have to be subjective. That's the nature of decision making sometimes.