Dirtbags Baseball

InterestedObserver,

 

I mean this in a very positive way, but what country do you live in? I live where people can make an informed decision on what they buy and when, and it is up to the purchaser to decide if they want or don't want a product. Are these coaches running these teams supposed to do this for your kids enjoyment? Using your logic PG would be in that category, but they have probably done more for college baseball recruiting than any other organization in the US and yes they are a for profit organization, good for them.

 

There are good teams and probably bad teams and coaches and the beauty of this site is to give parents and players information to make informed decisions. If the parents are so stupid (or willing) to spend lots of $$ on players who will likely never have a chance to play college baseball I say caveat emptor. 

The problem here is on one hand we are discussing the difference from one team to the next and on the other hand travel teams are being bunched together.  I have never seen this thing called showcase teams.  Not sure what that is?   I do know that the majority of the best and most scouted teams play in our tournaments.  We don't consider them showcase teams, they are just teams.  

 

The math used in the posts above is incomplete.  Does anyone really believe the only cost a team has is tournament entry fees?  Are coaches expected to work for nothing and pay their own travel expenses.  What about equipment and baseballs and insurance?

 

Without mentioning any specific program here is how some operate.  Some people know this and some don't.  The very best players/pitchers are being recruited, even at a young age by the top travel teams.  If one of these talented kids can't afford to pay, there are numerous teams that will pick him up.  

 

Is that fair?  Depends on what you're looking for.  That one player could be responsible for his teammates getting seen by a ton of recruiters and scouts.  So that one player adds a lot of value to everyone.  Could be that 15 players end up paying a little extra to cover for one player.  Bills still have to be paid!

 

i realize that this is a bit off the topic, but don't think for a minute that baseball is only for rich kids.  The only advantage that rich kids have is those that have no talent can still pay to play.  All kids that have enough talent, rich, poor, or in between, will be recruited by someone, long before they get involved in college recruiting.  Some will have no problem paying the team fee and for them it is money well spent.  Others simply can't pay the team fee, but if they are talented enough, there are many teams that will cover them. And it's actually a benefit to everyone on that team.

 

One reason that we got involved in holding tournaments was it was a way for us to help talented kids that didn't have the resources to get the exposure they deserved.  The NCAA rules make it very difficult to help these kids.  Give them a pair of shoes, buy them a meal, give them a ride, etc., all violate NCAA rules.  However, teams can operate under these rules without worrying about violating rules.  So these days when we know of a very talented young kid who can't afford to travel or get the exposure he needs, we can do something to help.  We have the highest level of travel teams from coast to coast playing in our events.  These teams are the most scouted and produce the most draft picks and DI players.  These teams truly care about results because those results are their life blood.  Sure they are a business, but their business depends on the results.  They often pick up extra talented kids and they want those kids to benefit, because in the end it helps everyone.  So if we know of a kid that has the talent but lacks the resources, we simply contact the teams and almost always there is someone out there that will help.

 

I do understand that this is different from the original discussion.  However, there were some comments made that I wanted to address. Mostly that if we are talking about college recruiting or professional baseball, those opportunities aren't worse these days, they are much better for kids with or without money.  Some people just don't want to believe that for some reason.  But each year when there are nearly a thousand scouts, college coaches, and agents at a tournament, no one is talking about the players wealth or poverty. It is all about talent!

 

All the above said, I know there are travel teams out there that are in it for just the money.  We all know there are people out there who will lie or cheat.  

I'm missing something in these responses.  The OP continues to assert that he was told one thing about games, comepetition, ... and not only was that not true, it appears that even the instuction promised was substandard.  Another assertion was that these teams where parents were mislead are funding the teams where players/parents are receiving what was promised.  This has noting to do with parents thinking that their son was better than what he was.  I've heard the same from some programs in my area.  I don't know the "truth" in this situation but can any of you assert that his practice is not happening all across this country?

PG has brought up a good point about coaches being paid.  I know that my son will be coaching a team in Atlanta this weekend.  His expenses are covered and he is also obligated to work practices and give pitching lessons for free plus chaperone . Its nice money but for all he has to do I say not enough, but the experience is worth what he could be making.  That could be the same said for the players.  If you cannot find that your players cannot learn anything from the experience, dont sign them up.  

Young HS players do not need to showcase themselves, but if the parent feels they want them to have experience before it counts, than thats their perogative.

 

Do parents think that the coaching staff and everything else comes for free?

 

As far as 17 kids on a roster,most likely less would mean you pay more money.

 

Parents, DO YOUR HOMEWORK. Make sure you understand what you are paying for.

 

Why are there only a few who complain about these "scams"?

 

Maybe those in this topic with complaints should do some exploring of past topics. No one has ever said that expensive travel "showcase" teams are for everyone.

Sounds like the Dirtbag organization is living up to its name.  lol

So you are coming to that conclusion because a few people felt it wasnt for them?  Or are you just trying to be funny..again?

Another classless post!

Dirtbag alumni

 

http://thedirtbags.com/index.php/alumni

 

Don't wear your finger out scrolling to the bottom.

How do you know it was a few?  I'd suggest that in any program where you are told one thing and given another that more than one or two are disgruntled.  It is entirely possible that others have decided not to voice their concerns and/or are not members of HSBBW.  Without saying to much more, I know more than a few in my area that believe that they were mislead with the programs that their sons participate in.  Of course everyone can deny that and I won't name names so ... 

 

BTW, this trend is no different in softball.  These "academy teams" are notorious for some of this. 

RJM,

They'll probably tell you that you made this up.

What people fail to realize is that top travel teams are like minor league teams.  Everyone is good but the majority make up the team for the top prospects.  And you do need reserves.  Funny thing is I know of lots of kids who got great opportunities because of who they were playing with on the team.  But as we are reading, everyone wants their kid on a team and to start every game.  That doesnt happen in HS, college or in the pros.

And enough of this, "I have a friend whose son played on a team so I know this to be true".  Thats baloney.

Really coach?  Are organizations out to screw everyone or do parents only see what they want to see?
It is a persons responsibility to do their due diligence.  All types of programs over recruit to find the best talent to win.  Sports have become competitive.  Some folks dont get that.  Yes, its income and yes people get greedy..all of the time!
I am not in favor of organizations not being 100% accurate, but does this allow lionbaseball to post what he did, or a parent whose son never played in the organization call them out because they "heard" this is what happened.
Lots of sour grapes.
FWIW, I never signed son up on a team for instruction, but rather to provide an opportunity to play.  And because he pitched, that was only every 5th or 6th game and we paid the same as the folks whose sons were everyday starters.  I guess if I wanted to that might be a valid complaint?
These folks need to stick with no fee baseball teams...because nothing will ever make them happy for spending money they probably should save for college.

TPM, you mention "due diligence" often in this thread.  What are parents to do?  They attend an organizational meeting, go to a tryout, are told certain things and you suggest that they are the ones at fault for being lied to.  You suggest that they are the ones who are at fault for trusting the people running the organization to which they paid a couple of thousand dollars to, and, according to this OP, to play the same teams over and over and not in real events seen by college coaches. You go further to suggest that these are parents of kids who have no talent and so, they should stick to local baseball.  How do you know the talent level of these kids? 

 

OK so you say this doesn't happen.  Go on and believe that.  However, I know it does happen, have coached kids who had it happen to and so, I'll go ahead and tell the truth as I know it.  The kids I know had talent and did go on to play in college.  I've seen it in both baseball and softball.

 

I'll go ahead and weigh out on this.. Believe what you want to believe. 

 

Darrell

My son played for me through age fifteen. Then I looked at the 17/18u teams recruiting my son. I talked to parents whose sons had played in the organization. I looked at the team history. I looked at whose in charge and considered what kinds of contacts they would have. I looked at their alumni lists. In one case I saw something strange on the alumni list of one team. I saw several players who were not from the area. Two of them happened to be Vanderbilt players where I had played with their dads in Legion or college summer ball. The dads told me the organization snagged their kids and the Uptons for one major tournament. They threw their own paying  players under the bus for that tournament. That's not what I was looking for In a team. I ruled them out.

 

With my daughter she came up through an organization from 12u to 18u that came highly recommended. They couldn't be all that bad. They hired me to be the hitting coach. I was paid a lot of smiles, high fives, thanks plus travel expenses.

Does it really count if a player played with four other organizations that developed him prior to a brief stint in Florida with a Dirtbag team? I mean you know the list is nice, but its just a list. What is the story behind the list?

 

And all those commitments? Looks great. What is a certain college gonna do with the 74 commits they have listed for the next 3 years. A college that the Dirtbags for example place kids at. I mean I guess a local Babe Ruth team could say they have another 10 committed to that college. It would all mean about the same. The player is committed, the college not so much.

 

Got a list on National Letters for players who played Dirtbags for more than 6 tournaments or events? That might tell a better story......................

Have no issue with travel teams but have seen these type of lists get very creative...I have seen my son's name on lists when all he ever did was take a few lessons as a 12 year old but he shows up on their alumni list.....which is not a lie but I do think you need to take a some caution with some of these lists...I have seen a local high school coach that is not a big fan of travel teams and a strong supporter of legion ball do the same thing with his legion team. He touts that kids do not need to play travel that they should play travel and they can still get exposure to colleges. The problem is that the players he touts as examples of his theory all played for travels teams and if you talk to those players and parents you find out that the travel teams are the teams that got them the exposure not the legion team. So my only point is the "lists" can take on a life of their own.

Darrell, 

 

You silly goose.  This thread would go a lot easier for you if you just assume TPM is right about everything.  

Having been around the travel baseball game for several years now I can tell you the "dirtbags" have a pretty good reputation, they have multiple teams at every age group, the rosters and schedules are posted on the web site...I would find it hard to believe that a parent had no idea of what they were getting into and if they didn't it is probably on them because it really isn't hard to find out.

FWIW,

 

I scanned the list of DirtBag alumni.  Just checking the drafted players I can assure people that most all of them played full time for the DirtBags.  That includes most all he first round picks and MLB players.

 

I have no idea how the program works for younger or less talented kids.  I can say that the highest level DirtBag teams would be a top 10 National program in most years. In fact, they have won many highest level tournaments including the WWBA World Championship in Jupiter.  And that team is usually the same team they play with all summer.

 

Knowing that they want the best possible program and they have a track record of choosing the right players, maybe the lower programs are some type of feeder system.  I would think they have proven to be good at evaluating players.  Just like everywhere if the player shows ability or improvement, he moves up the ladder. BTW, this approach is used by some of the top programs in the country.  It's not just a DirtBag thing.

 

Once again, I honestly don't know about all these other teams.  I really only know about their top teams. And they are about as good as it gets.

The mistake I saw made in our area is parents thinking their kids would automatically pass through thr system from 13u to 17/18u and play college ball. When my son played 13u to 16u almost all of the better teams were created by dads who played and knew the game. Other than Arsenal the academy teams from 13u to 16u were loaded up with mediocre players. Very few of them "graduated" to 17/18u. The academies recruited legitimate college prospects for the showcase level teams. Fillsfan (if I have the name right) told me even on Arsenal only four kids from the dominant 13u team his son played were around and made the 17/18u team.

 

In between games at an ECTB/USSSA tournament I was watching a bit of a 10u game. The dads were all intense. The circle I talked with told me their kids are going to play D1 college ball because they're playing for 10u Arsenal. They were paying $3,600 per year for instruction plus team fees for a delusion.

 

i don't believe travel baseball organizations lie to parents. I believe they paint a rosy picture the parents buy hook, line and sinker because they want to believe it. And the parents are inexperienced and uninformed.

Note to PG: In our area a 17/18u team that gets players in front of colleges coaches and scouts in prominent tournaments are typically referred to as showcase teams.

Parents with kids with better talent very often DO NOT complain.  They may feel slighted for somethings, but most realize that the cream always rises to the top.

Dont think for one moment that there are not people here that feel their kids have gotten the short end of the stick, but they understand a lot more how it works than the few who come here to complain.

 

A shout out to Batty67, who deleted his comments to me, tell me why I or anyone else needs to listen to second hand info that occurred years ago?  

When a parent puts up numbers of how much a promoter has made, without knowing how much they put out, it makes me wonder what the real issue is.