Disrespecting the Flag

Couldn't agree with you more and applaud both your stance and the fact that you'd care enough to write about it.

We have men and women (many of them as young or younger than those players) putting their lives on the line every single day; in part to make it possible for them to play their game. For that and many other important reasons, it seems to me that the least they can do is take about 2 1/2 minutes an evening respecting this country's flag and national anthem.

I stand for and have fought for freedom. That freedom does not always express my opinions, show it my expected reverence, or even stand up for the same freedoms I do, but I respect their right to be different and even disrespectful in my eyes, since disrespect is only a personal opinion and observation. I will not tell anyone else how to behave in situations I deem reverent, nor will I be told by others what my level of reverence, if any, I should show.

I love America. It is its' right to embrace its faults that makes it great. When we practice tolerance for those freedoms is when we put our money where our worldy mouth is.

Peace,
Chip Porter

I've heard the national anthem more times than I can count, and with repetition comes a familiarity - the "specialness" is lost. While on "display" (especially athletes) one should follow standard protocol, but I certainly understand any restlessness.

(I've taken team photos during that time and it feels weird.)

CPLZ,

Definitely appreciate what you're saying. I would just hope, personal views aside, that citizens respect the flag that flies over their land. If one is incapable of that, maybe he or she should find somewhere else to live? I'm not saying agree with everything in America, but show respect. These guys get payed to play a game for goodness sakes.

55mom,

Let me be clear. I am not expecting these players to be statues. I understand some rocking and restlessness. However, what these men were doing wasn't moderate restlessness. It was pretty intense rocking back and forth.

I really don't like the "finding somewhere to live" argument. It diminishes your well thought out post. However your point about simply showing respect for a few minutes is excellent. As the token liberal on the board I feel standing still and silent while listening to the anthem is an easy way for us all to be respectful. Rocking and talking is a poor reflection upon them.
If a management type person saw anything amiss, it will be addressed. No need to suggest someone leave the country.

As to my post, I simply said I could understand restlessness. ?

I agree that restlessness is one thing. However, I don't believe that their actions during the entirety of the National Anthem indicated restlessness as much as an inconvenienced player who has to do something. All 4 or 5 of the men involved just seemed completely immersed in whatever what so important, not just simple restlessness.

I agree though, it is simply unreasonable to think someone can stand completely still for the 2 1/2-3 minutes. When I was little, heck, I couldn't even stand still for 5 seconds!

Total and true freedom should keep us free also from ridicule of the excercision of our rights. It is not up to me to decide for anyone else what their level of respect should be for anything or anyone else, those beliefs are personal to me. I have no more right to tell you what to respect or how to respect it than I do to tell you which religion to believe in or deity to pray to or not.

Ridiculing anyone for burning a flag, causing a ruckus during the national anthem, or any other legal activity violates the most basic principles of the freedoms we supposedly cherish and die for. When we begin to enter arguments of "ethics, morality or respect", that means that someone is setting an arbitrary bar for whatever they deem proper and then leaving anyone who falls short of this supposed threshold to be a lesser citizen or human. I fought for the freedom not to have anyone set that bar for me, and would continue to do so should someone try.

"I may not agree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." (most commonly attributed to Voltaire)

True freedom doesn't have caveats, it thrives in its boundlessness.

Ugly as it sometimes seems, that, is the beauty in America The Beautiful.

quote:

Originally posted by CPLZ:
Total and true freedom should keep us free also from ridicule of the excercision of our rights. It is not up to me to decide for anyone else what their level of respect should be for anything or anyone else, those beliefs are personal to me. I have no more right to tell you what to respect or how to respect it than I do to tell you which religion to believe in or deity to pray to or not.

Ridiculing anyone for burning a flag, causing a ruckus during the national anthem, or any other legal activity violates the most basic principles of the freedoms we supposedly cherish and die for. When we begin to enter arguments of "ethics, morality or respect", that means that someone is setting an arbitrary bar for whatever they deem proper and then leaving anyone who falls short of this supposed threshold to be a lesser citizen or human. I fought for the freedom not to have anyone set that bar for me, and would continue to do so should someone try.

"I may not agree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." (most commonly attributed to Voltaire)

True freedom doesn't have caveats, it thrives in its boundlessness.

Ugly as it sometimes seems, that, is the beauty in America The Beautiful.

Absolutely.

quote:

Originally posted by CPLZ:
I stand for and have fought for freedom.

Just sayin...whatever he says...

quote:

Originally posted by mstcks:
I was raised to have respect for the flag and what it stands for.

What does the flag stand for in your opinion?

Do you think God respects any nations flag?

And before anyone ridicules my right to express my opinion my son is serving in Afganistan as a combat medic.

Good points to ponder here. Some opinions brought up things I hadn't thought about, and made me think. That's what good discussion is all about. Maybe my views won't change, but the fact that someone can make me contemplate what I believe and why I believe it means that this discussion has value.

To me, the American Flag is a representation of the American people. It is our forefathers committing to a new and untried system of democracy. It is those who fought against slavery and for equal rights for all citizens. It's a representation of the freedoms we have for simply being Americans. It's every person who has served this country in protection of those freedoms.

Does God respect any nation's flag? Of that I am not sure. I can't begin to contemplate God's thoughts. I simply cannot do it. Our thoughts about God pale in comparison to God's thoughts. But, that topic should be reserved for a different matter.

My biggest issue with this whole thing is that they were joking, talking, etc. during the National Anthem.

While CPLZ's comments did spark thought within me, and I can agree with his opinions of expressing our freedoms, I think there is an appropriate time and place (which he may argue against). All I am trying to voice is that the very least they could do is shut up and respect others around them in the ballpark trying to pay respect to the flag.

One other point of interest could be that these all were American players. There are many foreign-born MLB players. While I didn't see any of them doing these sorts of things, undoubtedly it exists on some level. However, I think that for the most part, they do respect the American flag, or at the very least, respect others around them enough to give respect. Imagine if athletes at the Olympics on the medal stands disrespected others while their country's anthem was being played. I don't think this would go over well.

quote:

Originally posted by mstcks:
I think there is an appropriate time and place (which he may argue against).

I will argue that, because it is arbitrary. Who gets to decide appropriateness. What if the guy next to you thinks it's appropriate to have to sing it, and the gal next to him thinks it's appropriate to sing it at the top of her lungs, and the guy next to him thinks it is appropriate that everyone bring a small American flag and wave it... appropriateness, ethics, morality, these are all personal concepts to be internalized and values to hold ourselves to. They are not supposed to be forced upon others so that they may be the butt of ridicule.

quote:

Originally posted by mstcks:
All I am trying to voice is that the very least they could do is shut up and respect others around them in the ballpark trying to pay respect to the flag.

If you were to pass a bunch of Hasidic Jews in an airport that were praying, or a group of muslims in a train station on prayer rugs, do you think you should stop whatever you are doing, i.e. talking on your phone, eating a snack, reading a paper, in order to "shut up and respect others around them trying to respect their God? The answer is no. I wouldn't go walking through the middle of them, but then again, I wouldn't chastise anyone who did.

We as a free society diminish our freedom every time we try and foist one of our beliefs upon another in the name of appropriate, respectful, moral, or ethical beliefs.

Having personal values is a great thing. It defines us. One of the values I struggled with the mightiest, but comes much easier with age, but still requires vigilance, is tolerance and acceptance.

De Opresso Liber, is a latin motto of Spec Ops, US Special Forces. It means, To Free From Oppression. Expecting someone to adhere to anothers standards is the very essence of oppression.

Does anyone know why they play the national anthem before sports events, or when it started?

I am going to disagree slightly with CPLZ on this one.

I don't think there ought to be laws against disrespecting the flag or protesting but there ought to be an awful lot of social condemnation for it. It seems to me that we are constantly being lectured to in this country what we ought to be tolerant of. One CEO expresses his views on g-ay marriage and he has the mayors of Chicago and Boston saying that his restaurants will never open there. Where is the tolerance in that? Who gave government officials the power to regulate speech as they see fit?

This country is backwards. We are supposed to be tolerant of homosexuality, abortion, perversion, minorities, anti-religious statements, Islam, s-ex and violence in the movies, etc, etc, etc. Somehow it is OK to be intolerant of the flag, Christianity, the values of the individual over the collective, etc, etc, etc.

These knuckleheads who disrespected the country during the national anthem should be condemned.

quote:

Originally posted by AntzDad:
Does anyone know why they play the national anthem before sports events, or when it started?

Looks like it started about 1918 during the 7th inning stretch, then quickly moved to pregame festivities:

http://espn.go.com/espn/story/...sports-espn-magazine

I'm with Cleveland Dad.

quote:

Originally posted by ClevelandDad:
This country is backwards. We are supposed to be tolerant of homosexuality, abortion, perversion, minorities, anti-religious statements, Islam, s-ex and violence in the movies, etc, etc, etc. Somehow it is OK to be intolerant of the flag, Christianity, the values of the individual over the collective, etc, etc, etc.

These knuckleheads who disrespected the country during the national anthem should be condemned.

I know I am going to twist what you said slightly, but I promise not to distort it...it is to show the hypocrisy of the comment.

We are supposed to be tolerant of the flag, Christianity, the values of the individual over the collective, etc, etc, etc. Somehow it is OK to be intolerant of homosexuality, abortion, perversion, minorities, anti-religious statements, Islam, s-ex and violence in the movies, etc, etc, etc.

These knuckleheads who were over the top screaming and cheering the country during the national anthem should be condemned.

You are right that we have the right to ridicule anything we want, but who gets to choose what that should be? You? Me? The religious zealot? The anarchist?

Intolerance is ugly and wrong. The mayors were not showing tolerance, they are politicians pandering to a voting public. We are the ones that give politicians voice with our vote. And you are right that we should not be ridiculing the owners of a company that choose a specific set of values to run their private entity by.

That is true respect, allowing another to live by a different standard and not demeaning him for it.

quote:

Originally posted by CPLZ:
If you were to pass a bunch of Hasidic Jews in an airport that were praying, or a group of muslims in a train station on prayer rugs, do you think you should stop whatever you are doing, i.e. talking on your phone, eating a snack, reading a paper, in order to "shut up and respect others around them trying to respect their God? The answer is no. I wouldn't go walking through the middle of them, but then again, I wouldn't chastise anyone who did.

If I were passing a Hasidic Jew, a Muslim, or an adherent to any other religious belief whose fellow followers were pausing in prayer, I would pause and join them in prayer. I would do this out of faith to our God and respect for my fellow followers.

If I were not a Hasidic Jew, a Muslim, or an adherent to any other religious belief whose followers were pausing in prayer, I would respect their right to do so as a fundamental right protected by our nation's Constitution. I would also step in to protect their right to do so if I thought that someone were trying to impair or abridge their expression of that right. However, it would be inappropriate for me to join them if I were not an adherent of their faith.

If I were an American citizen standing with other citizens during the playing of our national anthem, I would join my countrymen in pausing to reflect upon the privilege our society enjoys in having the right to express one's beliefs and out of respect to the countless men and women who have (and continue to) sacrifice their lives to protect our opportunity to enjoy such freedoms. If I were to observe other American citizens disregarding that moment, I would consider it disrespectful and inappropriate; and, if done in what I considered a particularly egregious way, I would reserve my right to object to their boorish and insensitive act.

It's kind of ironic that those athletes that are not respecting the flag, country and national anthem are probably the first to cry foul if they feel they themselves are being disrespected by others. If you want respect, show it to others.

quote:

Originally posted by Prepster:
...and, if done in what I considered a particularly egregious way, I would reserve my right to object to their boorish and insensitive act.

One mans ceiling is a another mans floor.

I have no problem standing up for myself and even more so, for those who can't stand up for themselves. However embracing true freedom truly means that we also stand up for those that personally disgust and repulse us, as long as their actions are legal. THAT, is the test of whether we really believe in freedom, or if it is just a smokescreen we hide behind to foist our own personal values on others and call it, good taste, respectfulness, appropriate, etc.

I don't believe that any of us were put on this earth to be the arbiter of boorish and insensitive. That is a constantly moving target and too dependent on whim...McCarthyism jumps to mind. Hang a negative label on someone and then condemn him because the mob believes it right.

quote:

Originally posted by CPLZ:
embracing true freedom truly means that we also stand up for those that personally disgust and repulse us, as long as their actions are legal. THAT, is the test of whether we really believe in freedom

Absolutely.

CPLZ said it pretty well, but this quote really covers it:

Andrew Shepard:
"If you can answer that question, folks, then you're smarter than I am, because I didn't understand it until a few hours ago. America isn't easy. America is advanced citizenship. You gotta want it bad, 'cause it's gonna put up a fight. It's gonna say "You want free speech? Let's see you acknowledge a man whose words make your blood boil, who's standing center stage and advocating at the top of his lungs that which you would spend a lifetime opposing at the top of yours. You want to claim this land as the land of the free? Then the symbol of your country can't just be a flag; the symbol also has to be one of its citizens exercising his right to burn that flag in protest. Show me that, defend that, celebrate that in your classrooms. Then, you can stand up and sing about the 'land of the free'."

I believe that people in a free and open society can and should make reasonable judgments and ought to be free to express them; that expressions of opinion and judgment can be evaluated rationally by others and either be accepted or dismissed. I also believe that a free and open society can and should institutionalize the protection of those freedoms in part to protect against the tyranny of extremism of the sort you mentioned; but that not all expressions of judgment within a society by its members necessarily condemn that society to extreme outcomes.

For example, I may object to being preached to, patronized, and referred to as a hypocrite because I choose to inject what I consider a measure of rational pragmatism into an otherwise pure concept. However, I'm free to make and express the further judgment that the one preaching to me has every right to his purist view, that those who fervently maintain such views help protect the freedoms that he and I value, and that it's not worth taking either the objection or the argument any farther on a message board intended for the discussion of baseball-related topics.

quote:

Originally posted by Prepster:
...protect against the tyranny of extremism...

And therein lies the heart of the problem. Extremism is undefinable as it is a personal perspective.

I will give what I believe is an excellent example, to the other end of extremism.

At Chicago Blackhawks games, it is tradition to cheer wildly, clapping and screaming, during The National Anthem. If you go to 1:30 of the video you will see the transition from the Canadian National Anthem into the US and hear the cheering. It is absolutely deafening. It is not people standing in reverence, it is mass celebration.

There are whole groups, websites, facebook pages, that are opposed to this cheering during the anthem because they feel it is, (pick your adverse term here), disrespectful, irreverent, etc. If you watch the video, I doubt there is any way you can't categorize their actions as extremism. So, is extremism only wrong when it doesn't reflect ones own personal values, or is it also wrong even when it accentuates ones own personal values? It can't be a one way street.

My point in this instance is that terms like "reasonable judgement" are not static and therefore undefinable.

Remember, Martin Luther King was an extremist in his time, but times change and would now be considered a moderate.

And...if I am coming off as "preachy or patronizing" I apologize, my intention is only unhindered discussion.

Regards,
Chip Porter

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"Hang a negative label on someone and then condemn him because the mob believes it right."

Just like how the term 'racist' has been so loosely thrown around for the last couple of decades. I agree...it is disgusting to be so careless, thoughtless, and manipulative.

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quote:

Originally posted by gotwood4sale:
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"Hang a negative label on someone and then condemn him because the mob believes it right."

Just like how the term 'racist' has been so loosely thrown around for the last couple of decades. I agree...it is disgusting to be so careless, thoughtless, and manipulative.

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What an excellent example...and more appropriate to our generation than my example.

Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf refused to stand for the anthem before NBA games in the '90's and caused a major stir. It may be hard to accept but it was OK and the Union survived.

It's not very complicated...unless it's illegal or hurting anyone else it's in bounds. Having our sensibilites rocked doesn't count. It is what makes us great and why so many of us love our country, its symbols and songs and wouldn't consider doing such a thing. Those that feel differently are entitled.

Times change and things that were once considered obvious suddenly one day weren't. In baseball terms there was a time when it was an obvious fact that blacks and hispanics were simply inferior and not capable of playing MLB. One of the dumber things ever but it is proof that an open mind is a good thing.

Maybe someone should move this string over to the Unusually Unusual section.

quote:

Originally posted by CPLZ:


I will give what I believe is an excellent example, to the other end of extremism.

At Chicago Blackhawks games, it is tradition to cheer wildly, clapping and screaming, during The National Anthem. If you go to 1:30 of the video you will see the transition from the Canadian National Anthem into the US and hear the cheering. It is absolutely deafening. It is not people standing in reverence, it is mass celebration.

You know, this was the first thing I thought of when I read the original post. I don't have a problem with it, at all. In fact, when they played at Chicago Stadium, I thought it was one of the coolest things in sports (along with the Michael Jordan Bulls introductions). I always got mad if the Flyers were in commercial when they played it. That and the (bad word) foghorn from plays of the week were my favorites.

To me, the Chicago Way is much different than people, players fidgeting or talking.

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"Maybe someone should move this string over to the Unusually Unusual section."

If I knew how to hook it up and get the front axle off the ground I'd do it. Anyone out there know how to get this thread hoisted up? It's just a short haul.





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Standing "respectful" during the national anthem doesn't make one patriotic or a good American any more than going to church on Sunday makes one a good Christian. (Replace Sunday and Christian with any day or religion you want)

Everyday actions and behaviors speak much louder than institutional or perceived standards IMO.

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Good point.

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quote:

Originally posted by fillsfan:
Standing "respectful" during the national anthem doesn't make one patriotic or a good American any more than going to church on Sunday makes one a good Christian. (Replace Sunday and Christian with any day or religion you want)

Everyday actions and behaviors speak much louder than institutional or perceived standards IMO.

Thank you, this is what my inarticulate self was attempting to express.

I think I have Olympic overload brain.

I went back through this entire thread and re read everyones comments and thought this a great discussion.

One single word jumped out at me along the way.

Purist

And it's funny, because I have been known to say, "nobody likes a purist", and here I am, taking my turn in the hypocritical barrel, spewing forth purist views on freedom.

The one thing I will say in my defense is that the question, "Do you believe in freedom?", is an absolute. Yes or no. Attempting to qualify it in any way, makes the answer, no. So in its most purist sense, we would all have to answer no. But if the real question were, "Do you believe in living in a free society, where there are laws to provide protection from harm", that is also an absolute. Although there are many that will answer yes, there are fewer that will actually practice it.

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quote:

Originally posted by CPLZ:

One single word jumped out at me along the way.

Purist

And it's funny, because I have been known to say, "nobody likes a purist", and here I am, taking my turn in the hypocritical barrel, spewing forth purist views on freedom.

You wanna hear some purist views? Ask me about flyfishing.

The United States Code Title 36 chapter 10 addresses proper conduct during the playing of the National Anthem when the flag is displayed. It is a suggestion. There is no penalty associated with it. Similarly, there is no requirement that anyone acknowledge the flag or the anthem by following these regulations because as interpreted by the courts, that would violate First Amendment rights. Attempts at adopting a flag desecration amendment have failed. The Pledge of Allegiance can't be required in schools for the same reason. A member of the Jehovah's Witnesses, for example, probably would not salute the flag, say the Pledge or enter military service.

Sometimes it's hard to stick up for freedom when it doesn't square with your brand of freedom.

"Those who expect to reap the blessings of liberty must undergo the fatigues of supporting it."

Thomas Paine

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

Benjamin Franklin

Now would anyone like to discuss the Patriot Act?

Lots of good stuff here. Again, things brought up that I wouldn't have originally thought about.

I still will probably cheer a little less loudly for those guys, but I'll cheer nonetheless. I'd hope to raise my kids based on my family values, one of which is respect for the flag and for those serving. However, in light of this discussion, I do acknowledge that the players in question--and all Americans--do have the right to make their own choices, even if I don't really like those choices.

The arguments discussed here certainly could apply to the Chick-Fil-A happenings. I might decide to venture over to the Unusually Unusual section to start a discussion on that matter. Maybe someone can give this thread a lift over there too?