Do players REALLY know how good they are

Dibble,

That is a great question and let me give you my humble opinion....Please understand this is from my perspective, which some say is a bit skewed .

I think often times (for the most part), players do NOT even realize what it takes to play at the collegiate level and beyond. Those players are players that excel in their environment, let's say in HS and may even be a stud in that environment.

Those very players started way back in Little League and were on the All-Star team every year that they played. They continue on into HS and do very well. So those players at that point have no reason to believe that they cannot go on and participate at an NCAA institution or Professional baseball only becasue they have done very well so far.

The rub is this.....baseball is a pyramid. The further up into the top of the pyramid you get the harder it is to compete and stay at that level; starting at the lowest level (1) and getting to the top of the pyramid (5).

1. Youth baseball
2. High School
3. College
4. Professional baseball (Minor Leagues)
5. Professional baseball (The Show)

I could certainly be wrong but sometimes going through the scenerio I just described causes players not to realize how very difficult it is to play beyond HS and in some cases to play at a certain HS depending on the area you are from.

Orioles42

Oriole,
I don't think your perception is skewed at all.
Unless one has been in the situation, players and parents have no clue what it takes to play at the collegiate, minor league or MLB level.

Many parents/players email asking me about the program where my son attends. I always say, think honestly about your sons HS ability and move it up two-three notches. I couldn't even begin to imagine what the minor league or MLB level is like.

Orioles

That was an excellent response. I wonder if you should require players to go watch a few college games before being allowed to showcase.

bbscout probably said it best. The speed of the game continues to increase as you move up. It's the single biggest difference. Most high schoolers would be surprised by a college game if they watched closely.

Speed of the pitchers ... The glove-hand transfers on the double-play ... how fast the ball gets to the infielders ... how fast the outfielders cut off balls in the gap ... how fast the runners get down the line.... infielders arm strength .... variety of pitches and movement on the ball ...

It's the same game, but it's also completely different.

I have to agree that most probably have a higher opinion of their talents until they attend a MLB tryout. On the other hand, I also know boys that went to a MLB tryout to see for the first time how they compare when:
1. Their "name" or "parent" is not a factor.
2. The coach has no pre-conceived notions.
3. The size of the program they are coming from is not a factor.
4. The evaluating coach has no monetary arrangements with the player.

If you start when you are a freshman, the scouts will see how you progress. It's free and it's an eye-opener. They may not sign you, but scouts seem to know everyone - they might even know a coach at a school that is looking for someone like you. I know several boys that "found" their schools in this manner.

Let me give my very personal opinion These kids ARE good - in their own neck of the woods.

Until kids who are big fish in little ponds get a chance to play against other big fish they have no clue what the competitive level out there is really like. That is why it is important for them to go through that experience.

The only way to really find out how good you are is to go up against other players - lots of other players - from all over.

With few exceptions (there are after all - exceptions to every rule) they LEAVE those events with a new found idea of where they REALLY fit in - and what it is going to take for them to REALLY compete.

What most parents don't understand (because it hurts the pocketbook) is that if that is ALL a kid learns from his first showcase, camp, or try out - then it was well worthwhile.

All you have to do is watch American Idol to realize that there are a lot of clueless people in this world and that most of them think they have all the answers.

Dibble, great thread. From our "neck of the woods", most players think they are all world. Each and everyone of them was a Little League and Babe Ruth All-Star, each and every year. So, they think they can compete against and with anyone. Little do they realize that there is "real baseball" outside of their hometown. Our son plays on a very elite summer/fall/winter travel team, and does very well. It is funny, we took one of the High School players down to watch in So. Cal, and he told my wife during the course of the game, "I never realized they had baseball like this". And this certainly wasn't college or minor league. I think they have been misled/misguided by parents/coaches/other players into believing what they want to hear. I am honest with my son every time we discuss baseball. I think all parents should be honest with their kids, it is a VERY select few who go on to play baseball in college or professionally, it doesn't matter if you are sitting on the bench at powdunk u, if you are on the team you must be a very very good baseball player, and to be paid to play baseball, I can't imagine how good you are, even if you never make it to the show. Count your blessings, because there are millions who didn't make it as far as you did. One other point I would like to make, I think the players truly know who is good, and who isn't. They know when a player is truly better than they are, BUT it is just not in them to acknowledge that fact and deal with it. And certainly not their parents. If parents could just realize that every day they have their child is a gift, and if they are not a great baseball player or don't play college or professional baseball, it will all be ok!

Great Question!!!!!

But kids who are GOOD, and I mean true College /Pro Material, know how good they are-- in most cases it is the parents who have no idea what it is all about because they belive all the good things they hear and discard any negative aspects--they hear what they want to hear

Dibble, I thought I was a stud. In my area and on my high school team, I was. However, when I got to college, I was a dud! That is what happens to players that really don't know the talent out there.

Yes, but there is an exception to the rule. Pitchers.....The gifted ones know. Even if they are from "no-wheresville". Even if the hitters are poor. Some kids with 90+ mph fastballs, exploding sliders and curveballs that drop off the table know. They know.

The cream will rise and seperate from the rest. Whats wrong with a kid having a dream and then having the opportunities and resources to show his stuff, good or bad. I give a lot of credit to the kid that throws 80 and runs a 7.5 and leaves the tryout with a puffy chest and smile on his face. That takes heart to feel good about yourself. I cannot tolerate the ones that were bubble kids that whine because they felt they were short changed.

You talk American Idol, I despise the the finals but watch those initial tryouts where some kids are terrible, but when they left the audition they were winners in their own mind. That is spirit! Those are the kids who will succeed when they get older because they pushed the envelope in an underdog role. The same can be said about that ballplayer without tools as life is not all baseball, but baseball is part of many kids lives . Those tryouts are for the most part open to the public, no one losses sleep because someone wants to fulfil a dream. I remember going to a couple MLB scouting camp and I made a point out of giving a nod or a wink to the kid who didn't belong, because he had guts and pride, you don't get conference awards for that, no trophies, but I will acknowledge you.

This is an excellent topic.

A few years ago I got to know, and buddied around with for awhile, a retired NHL player. He played in the NHL for 13 to 14 years, and was drafted as the # 4 pick overall for his draft year. Was playing a regular shift in the NHL as a 18 year old and became a allstar several times.

I asked him basically this same question that this thread is talking about but how it related to Hockey. "Essentially what is the difference between the NHL player, and minor league - college, or elite level high school player?"

His answer:

1. Speed and Power. (raw athletic abililty) The pro players either are or were very fast. And basically to a man are very, very strong.

2. Toughness. Not only physical, but even more important - Mental Toughness. His answer was that a minor league coaches job is to put pressure on the kids and find out if they break (mentally). At times the minor league coaches job was to be a *****. They know that most of these superstar kids were coddled from the time people first saw their talent, and the minor league coaches job was to ... lets say ... un-coddle them.

3. Talent: (Skills for the game) He said there were many guys in the minor leagues that had more talent than he did, but just couldn't take the pressure.

You weren't going to make to the NHL without the skill, but it was the one area they thought they could teach. As far as athletic ability and mental toughness, the kids either have it or they don't.

In my humble opionion, these same traits translate over to not only baseball, but any sport.

If I recall, the exchange between two MLB scouts went something like this.

Scout # 1 --"Man, he don't look like he runs too good."

Scout # 2 -- "That's okay. If he can get to second on one swing he'll be just fine."

GREAT post, and replys

I tell kids all the time if they dont believe they are good who will. I believe that a player should walk on the field everyday believeing that he is the best player on the field and he has three hours to show it. Now there are kids and parents that are clueless because they have never been outside their local league. They think that little Johnny is the man because he has been an All Star in the local rec league every year. Get out of the pond and go to the ocean. Open your eyes to what it outside your little bubble. Every year we take our team to a College Game and just let them watch. We make sure that we are there for pregame infield and bp just so they can see the level that these guys play at. We also let the JV sit and watch our Varsity take infield every year so they can see the measureing stick in our program. But most of the time the players know the deal. It is usually the parents that have the hard time coming to grips with reality. You may be the best player in your local league, best player at your High School the best player in your county and still not be good enough to play at a D-1 program. That is a fact. Then you might have a HS program with 5 or 6 D-1 players in one year. Its just the facts.

Coach May

You make some great points

I used to take my LL to wacth my son play in summer ball so they could see what "the big guys" do. It gave them an appreciation as to what they might become as a player and also gave them a thrill to see my son, who worked in LL with me and helped coach the kids, play

I also think that every player deep within himself knows where his talent level lies

Well, this is definately a good topic, and i think the answer yes and no. Now you have two different types of players, you have the Hometown all-stars, and the showcase players on the national scene. Now up until 10th grade when i started goin to showcases, i was the Hometown all-star type, well i thought i was hot stuff, and thought i could beat anyone, i had been clocked at 90 and i thought i was hot. But then that summer, i stepped onto the showcase scene, and played with Team Florida, and i started getting ripped, sure i was GOOD, but the level of players i was against was MUCH better, so compared to my competition i wasnt exactly good. But i learned from the experience of getting stroked by the better players, and i was motivated to go work harder and get better. So as a hometown player i knew i was good, but once i jumped out into the ocean of big time players, i realized at first i wasnt that good, so i think the real answer to this question, is YES players know how good they are, BUT they only grade how good they are compared to the competition around them. Your only as good as who you play against, if you play the best, you have to learn to be the best. Just my two cents.

quote:

But most of the time the players know the deal. It is usually the parents that have the hard time coming to grips with reality.

quote:

But kids who are GOOD, and I mean true College /Pro Material, know how good they are-- in most cases it is the parents who have no idea what it is all about because they belive all the good things they hear and discard any negative aspects--they hear what they want to hear.

Well so much for the kinder gentler, more helpful, message board.

I'm over it.

Almost without fail, a thread starts and within 20 posts a coach labels parents morons.

Who does that help?

Isn't is given most coaches have a better grasp of the situation than most parents?

Aren't you two over that yet? Then, Why not?

I might suggest you consider coaching positions at an orphanage.

DAD04

Where do see the word "moron" in any post!!!!

"in most cases its the parents who have no idea what its all about"

Maybe a little tempering of the above statement would have been a better
choice.

Just read yesterday how this LHP from a local school went pretty much un-noticed because he was hitting the gun at a whopping 83 mph. Small college coach happened to see him and thought he might be able to make a decent pitcher out of him with his help. The kid worked extremely hard, became successful and was drafted in the 7th round of his junior year hitting the gun at 97. So how can you tell if they are pro potential at 18? Odds are they will never make it but then you read a story like this one. Who are we to tell anyone to give up a dream. If a pro scout says they are not interested in a kid, then the kid heard it from someone who gets paid to tell him that not someone who just knows the game.

quote:

Originally posted by Moc1:
"in most cases its the parents who have no idea what its all about"

I know you were trying to make a "kinder & gentler point ... but there is something (unfortunately) to be said about this. It contains a harsh, large element of truth.

Many parents have no idea how good little Johnny is. Many parents do have blinders. Many parents have never seen a college or pro game so they have no concept of what it takes. Some parents don't understand baseball.

You get an exclusive minority on this site. You get those motivated, committed parents (usually) of talented, committed kids (mostly). Where statements can seem to be out of place to other posters here, they can still be very true to the majority of parents out there in the wilderness who haven't had the time, energy or inclination to join our little merry band (again ... usually - this time as it refers to the merry band).

I think we've all run in to inflated parents and players who overestimated their status.

At the city All-Star game in my son's senior year, there was another catcher playing who had gotten some ink in the local papers. The kid said he had no plans to go to college because he was going to be drafted. Watching him play...not surprised it didn't happen. Another kid who played travel ball with us (and always overestimated his worth) was bragging about being signed by a top 50 D1, "And they gave me books!" Again, not surprised when he transferred after his freshman year because of no PT.

It's a big country out there; if you're talking pros, it's a big world. And without a map, it's tough to navigate. This website is our map. I wonder how many players out there are continuing their baseball careers because of the hsbaseballweb. Because they learned about objective evals, how to get to the best travel team for them, how to be marketed to colleges, the rules about the Clearinghouse, how to judge the fit of a college, reminders about grades/test scores/eligibility. I know my son had the best summer of his life last year because of a PM conversation with MN-Mom ( ).

When you run into a parent or player who would benefit from knowing their level, direct them to this site --- there's much to be learned.

Parents are just that - Parents. They love their kids and see it as their job to provide opportunity for their kids. Many parents get a little carried away, but that's Ok, because they have to learn too.... Sometimes it's harder for the parent to drop the dream.... Sometimes the coach needs to not play favorites (coaches have to learn as they go too).... Sometimes a parent has to take his kid off of one team because he plays the same position as the coaches kid and has to get him on another team so he's got a better opportunity to play (usually this happens at the younger ages like 12U).... Sometimes a parent has a kid that is a late bloomer and his kid isn't getting any opportunities right now, and maybe even is hearing noises from other adults that his kid isn't any good, but, believes in his kid enough to stick it out.... Kids should play until they absolutely cannot - which may not be until age 70 (if you want to include old-timers softball)!!!! Parents and players alike need to finally understand that the players need to play with the team that really wants them - not the other way around. That's the key - which team at which level REALLY WANTS your son to play with them!!!

I do think this is an interesting topic for the simple reason that before a player can truly succeed, he has to believe in himself...and...somewhere in his development, that YOUNG player had to have adults, including his parents, believe in him too. I have seen my son when he was much younger become so disappointed in his performance that he was convinced he wasn’t very good. I had to help him keep it all in perspective. Today he sees the same thing happening to younger players and tries to explain the same thing to them. Baseball is truly a roller-coaster ride of emotions. During the pre-high school and early high school years it is difficult for all involved, parents and players alike, to determine how “good” a player is. Getting honest, unbiased opinions (like showcases) are always beneficial in helping parents and players to determine the talent level of the player.
Good topic!
Fungo

Parents are always accused of having rose color glasses. Just maybe the parent sees the talent in a child that may be over looked in a try out because the boy is not as big or strong as the others. With work and encouagement he could grown into a pretty darn good ball player.
I dont believe Ozzie Smith was drafted out of high school or signed with a big D1. But he believed in his talent, now he is in the hall of fame.

Ozzie went to Cal-Poly where he was a walk-on. We often refer to the David Ekstein story here as well. There is much to be said for believing in yourself.

My son's ex-hitting instructor was a 2nd round pick out of HS. He later described himself as Ozzie's caddy.

My view is that there are at least two responses to this question. IMO, most players when they get to varsity in high school and beyond have a pretty good grasp of their skills, desire and how it measures against other players. Whether they will admit that or not is a different question. I have often heard mine criticize himself for mistakes but never heard him express that he had ever assessed his skill level. My son's college coach admitted that my son had never said anything in 4 years to suggest an appreciation of his skills, until he returned from his first year of professional ball. Only at that time did he say that he thought he could compete at that level and beyond, provided he did all the work and continued to improve. In our experience, if our son stopped to assess how "good" he is he would have been taking his eye off the target of knowing he still needs to improve and still feels he has the ability to improve. From ages 16 to 23 he has improved immeasurably. How much farther he can take this method of motivation gets tested beginning February 26.

I can honestly say I've never looked at things through those rose colored glasses. In fact, I didn't even think my sons were all that good. However, they thought they were and I didn't do anything to change the way "they" thought.

If we had a crystal ball that could tell us exactly how good a player was going to end up being, it would solve these problems. It would save us all a lot of time and worry. But we don't... there's been many examples of late bloomers posted on these pages.

IMO Parents do tend to over estimate their childs ability. Not sure there is anything wrong with that. If someone is going to reach for the stars, he better have lots of confidence and persistence. You don't get there by just saying I or he just can't do it.

Besides, why should anyone care if dad or mom over estimates their sons ability or potential. The truth surfaces in the end. Would it be better to give up and be satisfied. Some of those who are not there yet... get there! I'm not sure that could happen without someone wearing the rose colored glasses.

HHHeat-Yes, I was trying to calm things down a bit. I think we should all try to look at each issue from the other side before we make statements that tend to generalize about a certain group of people. I let the statement slide at first because I knew it did not pertain to me and even if it was meant for me, I'm secure
in how I feel I have raised my children. That being said, however, there may be parents who have been maligned wrongly for standing up for their sons(daughters) when they were 100% in the right and acted properly(I know of quite a few instances)
and then been labeled as overbearing, doting parents by other parents and coaches
who THEMSELVES "don't have a clue". It works both ways and it's a very sensitive issue for a lot of parents.

Your point is well-taken as is PG's and I tend to agree with you both.

Shoot Moc1, I'm convinced some days that mine's tne next coming of Greg Maddox. Other days, I wonder how he ever got an offer to play in college.



We frequently have a tendency to state things in absolutes and I'm probably more guilty than the any one else of that nasty little trait.

It is a sensitive subject, one that's difficult to approach. That's one of the reasons that I feel you need to get you kids away from "Daddy Ball" and on a decent team with good coaches as soon as practical.

But that's not always available or affordable. That's where places like the HSBaseballWeb and people like PGStaff, RCW and TRHit help tremendously.

Now, if I can just convince Orlando that pitchers should call their own games........

H3, ALL generalizations are bad*, and if I've told you once, I've told you a thousand times: don't exagerate.

* Except the one about how pitchers shouldn't call games.

My opinion only.

By logging on to this website, as a coach parent or a player, you have acknowledged that you lack something. By posting on this message board and asking a question, you have publicly acknowledged your particular ignorance.

By constantly responding to the very audience asking for help in a less than welcoming tone, whatever assistance given is discounted to the point of being ignored.

It has been said over and over again but bears repeating. The coaches and industry professionals posting here are by far the best. The cream of the crop.

Rude responses and parent bashing mixed among the posts wash all the good information down the drain.

Parents and players know they don't know anything. THAT'S WHY THEY ASK A QUESTION.

As for the rest that think they do, but really do not, hit the ignore button.

I would submit that the reason topics need to be bumped back from oblivion is that too many people needing help are too intimidated to ask for it.

Sooner or later reality sets in. It really does not matter how good a player or as some have stated his parents think he is. It will be somebody with a non biased opinion who will make the call. Are they always right no but most have a pretty good idea.

Will

In your coaching years how many kids that you cut overcame it and went on to play varsity and college ball ?//

You dont have to be exact but roughly

PG,

I'm with you. I don't see my son as being a very good player but he loves the game and plays hard. He wants to be good. I am always amazed when one of my coaches says "Man, C, looks really good." or "Wow! How did he do that?" I don't see my son that way.

Trhit

Off the top of my head nobody comes to mind as to going on to play at college but it could have happened and probably did.

In my situation I usually had the Juniors and seniors theFreshman and Sophs had gone through Freshman and JV system. Howevwer there was a few who got cut either freshman or Soph year or even both who I kept. I remember one kid who got cut 2 years as a freshman and soph came up to try out for varsith as a junior I did not keep him and there he was again as a senior. Average at best. I had to keep him. You have to reward perserverence. Did he start no played sparingly but I do remeber him winning an imortant game for us with a bases loaded hit in the bottom of thelast inning. does not get any better. At that moment I thought of all the kids who gave up.

Trhit

Off the top of my head nobody comes to mind as to going on to play at college but it could have happened and probably did.

In my situation I usually had the Juniors and seniors theFreshman and Sophs had gone through Freshman and JV system. Howevwer there was a few who got cut either freshman or Soph year or even both who I kept. I remember one kid who got cut 2 years as a freshman and soph came up to try out for varsity as a junior I did not keep him and there he was again as a senior. Average at best. I had to keep him. You have to reward perserverence. Did he start no played sparingly but I do remeber him winning an imortant game for us with a bases loaded hit in the bottom of thelast inning. does not get any better. At that moment I thought of all the kids who gave up.