Do you take the money

How can you improve on being drafted in the 1st round? If you're drafted that high, why wouldn't you sign? JMO.

Its a roll of the dice--if he attends college , has a great college career and does not get hurt that 1.8 could double or triple.

1.8 does not last long after taxes, agents etc

College education lasts forever

Which ever side of the fence you are on you still have to mow the lawn.

im sorry but anyone who turns down 1.8 million to play a game they love is an idiot. Off his same team Jeff Mathis took less than a million and is now one of the highest rated prospects in the nation, Horne had that potential too,and instead of taking the money he hurts his arm and has to get TJ surgery. Then when you consider the college scholarship plan, you realize how good of a deal he had, thats 1.8 million plus college guaranteed. So why not pass up college? BONEHEAD move on his part.

Cleveland Dad, This is an interesting question.
I think any player/family that has to make this choice would be very lucky.

If it was my child or a friend's child, it would depend if this was their dream. First round draft choice - how much better could it get for a kid. If baseball was truly their passion, then I would encourage and support them to go for it. I'm always amazed at the players who supposedly love baseball, but when it comes between 2 million or 2.5 million, they may not play if they don't get their number. Is it about the money or your love of the game?

Best case scenario - works his butt off and lives out his dream. Worst case sceanrio - doesn't make it, and has money to receive his college education along with many stories to tell his children. Not a bad deal either way IMO.

AHS, strongly disagree with you. Bonehead move on his part because he choose college? While I would have taken the money also, I am in no position to judge that boy.

On the other hand, if he had signed with my beloved Indians and suffered the same injury, I have to believe he would have received better medical treatment. Interesting article in SI recently commenting on the increased TJ surgeries being done to kids as young as 13.

You can have college or you can have college plus 1.8m.

I don't have to know the kid or his parents to analyze this.

Using pure rationalization to work out whether to take a 1.8 mil signing bounus or go to college, here's what I get, DO BOTH!

I'd estimate that after all is said and done the 1.8 mil will net down to around 900k.
Using virtually risk free investments like T-bills you could generate about 30k a year in income. That's give or take 5k depending on maturity of the T-bills.
Mix in a little more risk ( high rated corporate bonds) but still very little risk one could generate in the area of 50k a year in income.

Either way, 30k or 50k is adequate income for a kid out of HS while hes in rookie ball or whatever. At the same time the college scholorship plan is there and the kid has the option of going to college while playing ball.

That being said, if he turns down the signing bonus, and goes to school for just 4 years, graduates and gets a job (for one reason or another baseball is no longer an option) right out for school paying 100k, which is unlikely, it will take him 9 years to earn the same 900k he was handed for signing. Add the 4 yrs of college and it will take him 13 yrs to earn the same 900k. If he goes to grad school, make it 16 or 17 yrs to earn the same 900k.

If after 2 yrs or whatever of playing it ends. He's still has the original 900k earning him money. Whatever he decides to do at that point, and 900k increase the choices available, it will be a lot easier knowing he's got almost a million dollars in the bank.

I think skipping college is a mistake. I think turning down a large sum of money is a mistake as well.

Unless I'm wrong it seems it's possible to do both and I can't see why it has to be one or the other.

BackDash,

That was pretty much my thinking except I was too lazy to put the analysis in writing. Again, I am for the college education all the way. I guess the question is whether or not to delay the experience. BTW, 100k per year is no gimmee - even from an Ivy league school. Also, 100K probably translates to about 65k after taxes so nine years is probably not enough time to recoup the money.

If he turned down the 1.8 because it was the Indians - then the hell with him!!!! If he turned it down because he was greedy - then he got burnt. But if he turned it down because he wanted to experience college - then I wish him only the best. Shag stayed three years in college because he wanted to experience it - and he is doing alright for himself. Does anyone know why he actually turned it down? Sure he could always have gone back to college later, but if he really wanted to "experience" college, then he needed to do it right after high school. Maybe, just maybe, he put his life before money - and if he did, I am willing to bet he will do just fine. Now then, what could I do with that 1.8..................!!!!

Backdash & Cleveland, You're both leaving out the earnings from the assumed $900K over the period of time the player would be in school, plus during the time he'd be earning a living after getting out of school. The time to re-coup $900K would be much longer when you factor these in. Of course, after buying their Escalade or Hummer, or whichever car is "in" this year, along with a few other expensive toys, they might not have $800K left to invest, but in any case, it is an incredible opportunity. If they've signed a LOI with a quality school, they can always get a high quality education for free, but of course many don't take advantage of that when they leave baseball.

Of course you take the money. After agents fee and taxes you will still have approximately 1.1 million.How long does it take a college graduate to earn 1.1 million after taxes. At 60 k per year it will take them 30 years to make that. Not factoring in the time value of having the money today. Just investing the 1.1 million in 5 % tax free bonds they would earn 55,000 a year for the rest of their lives. Plus college is paid for with the MLB program. Sure they miss the college experience, but they are is great shape financially for the rest of their lives. Each to their own, but I think he got some bad advice. From what I understand, he wanted to play pro ball and held out for more money. Ask Matt Harrington if he wished he would have taken the 3 + million that he turned down now. Horne has been at 2 different colleges, a Junior College abnd is fighting to get a chance at pro ball now. Best wishes to him and the pursuit of his dream.

If it were my son, he would go to school. $1.8 million is not enough for a lifetime or much more than a good start (unless, of course, your ambitions and abilities are extremely limited). College is a better start. And if he is good enough and avoids injury, that money will be greater later. Plus, in college you are allowed to fail and still have a chance. Pro ball at 18 is very, very tough and very, very high risk. You can be washed up at 20, and most of these guys never do go to college, paid for or not.

College gives you a better life in so many ways for a much longer time.

Are you afraid of money?

Think people.

There are at least 10-15, 20-23 yr olds helping coach HS baseball here in NV. i only know of 1 that returned to school to get their degree...many did not even try, they needed to get a JOB, and Mom and Dad were did not have an available room...the odds seem to be less than 5% return. They are lucky to make $10 hr now at a job that won't be a career. Alot of the HS head coaches I know across the country are very similar having played and are now teachers making 35,000. Not a good thing...in my opinion.

I have seen so many kids take 10,000 to 150,000 and go to rookie ball, only to see them return after the next 1 or 2 draft cycles to nothing, with no $$$ to show for it and a broken dream. Never able to play in college, watching their friends at college games, and kicking themselves while trying to teach a bunch of 15-17 yr olds a game that they couldn't master.

Granted there may be a few aspiring young men who can take the 1.8, and after taxes take the 1.1 and pay another 100,000 to the agent and then take the 900,000 and live well for a few years AND go back and get a degree. You can count them on one hand. They won the game!

IMHO, Go to college with a full scholarship.You will get it if you are a top 10 rounder...and have a chance at a great degree with a future AND play baseball. You still will have a chance to sign after your junior year with 6 semesters under your belt, more experienced, more mature and with more bargaining power. If by chance, you get hurt, that can happen anytime, and if so, try to rehab in rookie or A ball when every guy wants your job vs continuing to further your education and rehab in college...and eat 3 times a day...what a novel idea?

Choices are difficult, but weighing the consequences can be even more enlightning. For those who believe you should go for your dream from HS, you can research the statistics, MLB has them, but try to get them to give them to your son.

The mark I would set as a win situation would be 3.0 Million...then you have the 1.5 or so to invest and if your son IS concerned about his WORKING future, he may still go to school online while pursuing his dream, and finish after his time has come, which it will with money in the bank.

For those who have this tough choice, you are lucky...congrats...and for those who choose a degree, when you graduate making 6 figures, you may see some applications that have a familiar tone...ex minor league baseball player with lots of experience living in a communal environment. Can live on $100/week, I don't eat much and enjoy long bus rides...

Great topic, tough decision!

Todays youth had better be ready for life after baseball because baseball aint forever

Teacherman:

If the question is directed at me, my answer is no, of course not. Money provides a lot of good and is one of many measures of success. My problem here is that $1.8 million is not enough. Not even close.

There ya go TR....
If they take the money and dont go to school as well they will pay the price in some way shape or form at some point .

first off in florida there is NO state income tax, so after taxes he has $1,188,000, then take into the 3-4% most advisors charge on draft picks, where you can deduct some of the agent fees through taxes since its a business expense. but without accounting for deductions the agents fee of 4% would be $72,000 on $1.8 million, so for a player living in florida taking the money he would be left with $1,116,000 after taxes and agents fees, so he would have all of that money, PLUS college which is included in the college scholarship plan IF hes concerned about college. Then also you gotta remember that you get money from endorsements and card companies because you go first round, i know that Lastings Milledge got a $50,000 card deal out of the first round. And all he had to do for that is sign 2000 cards and they handed him a check for $50,000. not bad huh? so personally, i question Horne's sanity, but thats just me.

Simple Fact---odds are against a player going
to college after his baseball days are over--just look at all the batting cage/training facilties run by ex pro ball players

quote:

Originally posted by jemaz:
Teacherman:

If the question is directed at me, my answer is no, of course not. Money provides a lot of good and is one of many measures of success. My problem here is that $1.8 million is not enough. Not even close.

You have to be from the arrogant academia fraternity.
You know, those guys who despise people who make money without a degree...............how dare they.

1.8M is not enough to forego college?????

Get out your calculator. 1.8M is about what he's likely to make in his lifetime.........with a college degree. And he could still go to college even though TR and the others believe if some don't they all can't.

Have you guys ever heard of herd mentality? I suggest you find new friends.

If you're going to college to learn to make money you're making a sad mistake. Colleges know this. The business world knows this. Yet, they all say how important it is. After all, they need someone to fill the cublicles so they can travel the world.

I believe it's important. I just can not connect the dots between a degree and making good money. There are obvious exceptions....doctors and other professionals. But what percentage of college graduates are they.......10%-20%. Oh that poor 80% that fell for the trap and got a degree and will never make but $50,000 per year. Who put the move on them???

$50,000/year for 40 years = $2,000,000.

And here is a kid who can get 1.8M by saying yes.

And you say no, go to college.

I have to live up to my reputation and say......you're a frickin idiot.

Teacherman,
People to you are idiots because they do not agree with you?
We've had these discussions before, what someone decides about THEIR future is really not our business.
When my son came home from college during christmas we asked him if per chance he was sorry he did not consider going pro after HS. He told us he wouldn't have it any other way, even for a few million dollars.
He may not agree with you, go ahead call him a frickin idiot...I DARE YA!

TigerPawMom.....very glad you are back! Missed your way with words...

We know a kid who took the money.....and, now, four years later.....wishes he had gone to college....injuries/surgeries....can happen in school or in the minors....he just feels that he would have more to fall back on now....he values the college experience and education he didn't get more than the bonus money he has....

TEACHERMAN

Some times you sound intelligent other times (most) you do not seem to have a clue!!!

Everybody calm down. It would be a very personal situation for any lucky family to be in that position. The money at some point is going to have to be considered. Most young men play this game because they love the game, not necessarily for the money. That being said, money has considered for a big decision like this. 1.8 million doesn't buy happiness, but it does go a long way in providing for a life that not many enjoy. If a 18 year old truly values his education, even if he signs and fails, he will take the MLB plan and go to college. How many people do we all know the went to college later in life and had successful careers. If we are afraid that our sons won't go back and get their degrees, how committed were they to their education in the first place. If anyone truly values a higher education and someone pays for it, whether it be in the form of a scholarship or the MLB plan, they will get it. What difference does it make at what age. Having a strong opinion on this is personal, let's not resort to name calling.

quote:

Originally posted by Tiger Paw Mom:
Teacherman,
People to you are idiots because they do not agree with you?
...

Has nothing to do with agreeing with me.

Has something to do with brain power.

quote:

Originally posted by arizonared:
.......he just feels that he would have more to fall back on now....he values the college experience and education he didn't get more than the bonus money he has....

Well, I recommend he enroll.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
TEACHERMAN

Some times you sound intelligent other times (most) you do not seem to have a clue!!!

Better than never, like many cattle on this board.

Please, someone attack my response to jemaz about it not being enough money to skip college.

Assume a well liked poster said it so you can be rational.

quote:

...1.8 million doesn't buy happiness, ...

If I'm going to be unhappy, I'd rather be unhappy with 1.8M than unhappy and broke.

Teacherman- Don't attack everyone who has a different idea than you. Obviously, this would be a very personal decision for each player and family.

I think Florida Dad hit the nail on the head though -if a kid does have the foresight and drive to go to college as an 18 year old, I believe he would as a 20, 22, or whatever. The time was not right for me to continue college after highschool, so I went back late 20's and didn't receive my degree until I was 30 years old. People do it all the time.

I'll say again, if my son ever had that opportunity, I'd support him all the way!

lafmom

I was going to respond to TEACHERMAN but you said it all

Thamx

As the wife of one who was told to take the scholarship, hurt the arm and sees his friends still playing or coaching, he regrets his decision big time. Mom and Dad said to take the college scholarship and he could play later. He has told his boys that if they truly want to play baseball at that level and make the sacrifices to do so, they have our blessing.

Backdash says to do both. Smartest guy in the group. Everyone is rationalizing to make their point. The chance of making it to the bigs out of high school is small. So is the chance of making huge bucks with a degree. Both are a small minority. Entrepreneurs make the big bucks.

A small minority ever go back to college. A small minority ever make the kind of bucks that would equal 1.8 mill invested will earn them. Over 40 years that is 2mill + the original money = 3.1 mill. That doesn't include whatever other money the player may earn in his lifetime. even at 50k per year that is another 2 mill. That is a total of 5.1 mill over 40 years. That is providing that you never invest any more or save any more and spend it all every year. With proper money management a person with a good investment counselor could have as much as 50%-100% more than that over 40 years. With a degree it would take earning 125k per year from time of graduation (which would 4 years later than the kid out of hs. Already 500k behind) to earn that much provided they invest the same. How many college grads earn 125k out of graduation. Very few. More after a Masters, but then you are 7 years behind or 875k. Do the math.

Few will go back to college and few will earn out of college what it will take to match that much money. Make your own choice and live with it, but college and career sometimes don't work out any better than making it to the pros. In this case making it to the pros can make one financially secure for life if handled right.

Save the some guys won't handle the money speech. Same happens with college grads.

Teacherman,
Is it enough money to surpass college, you want an answer?
Yes, it is a lot for someone to give up if he may never get a chance again to see that type of money, or not make that type of money in his lifetime. Or know that he may not be in that situation again.
No, it is not enough if you have the potential to earn that in your lifetime. We live in a town where doctors, lawyers, enterprenuers, etc. are very wealthy people, many of the kids here will be extremely successful, even more so than their parents. For many here, that's pocket change.
I know of quite a few who got nice signing bonus' who are from our area. I heard that after the fancy cars, toys etc, in one case it is gone. Not sure if it is true, but it is talk. If mine had signed, the next day he would have been signed up for online classes. I am a firm believer in higher education. I think that most parents who have college+ degrees feel the same way. However, the whole college experience (not just baseball) is something that stays with you for a lifetime.
So therefore, I go back to my original statement, it personal decision, and if we agree with it or not, that is our opinion, there is no need for name calling.
I have told this story before, I know of someone who passed up LOTS of money to go to college. Not quite a million, but enough to make his family a little more comfortable. He took the scholarship, because he was the FIRST in his entire family to ever have a chance to go to college. To each his own.

$1,800,000.00

There is only a handful of high school players who would ever turn it down. Of course, those who do become very well known.

There aren't very many who ever have this choice. 10-15 each year at the most and we all know, most all of them take the money.

I know this is about baseball, but what if it wasn't? What if someone offered a high school kid $1.8 million to simply not attend college right away. And they said that they would pay for your college education completely if you wanted to go later.

How many people would turn down that offer? Then if you love baseball, it's even better. You get to play baseball and get paid for it.

I don't hold it against anyone who chooses the college route. I know some people who have really turned down that kind of money and went to college. John Mayberry went to Stanford for one. Jeremy Sowers, Matt Harrington, Alan Horne, etc. are others

One thing that seems to stand out is that position players don't have quite the same risk involved as pitchers. Obviously, this is due to injury factors more than anything else. Some college programs don’t take care of the arms as well as major league organizations do. So it is important that a young pitcher who is turning down lots of money find the right program.

Everyone has a different opinion of the actual value of a college education. For some it’s worth $1.8 million I guess. But would anyone here pay $1.8 million to go to college? Maybe I’m not looking at this correctly, but indirectly isn’t that what happened in this case.

I do understand that the goal is to end up with both (education and big signing bonus) and that has happened in the past. However, one should understand the risk involved. Obviously this risk revolves around how important $1.8 million is to the individual. Most kids signing out of high school are getting far less money than that.

Anyway, there is no right or wrong… If only we had a crystal ball!

TPM, Pocket Change?
That's what I'd call "Deep Pockets"

quote:

Better than never, like many cattle on this board.

Spoken like a truely educated man...

TPM...you are 100% correct, the 4 year college experience is Priceless. People such as Teacherman can't begin to understand the $$ value of college because they are envious and respond through aggression and name-calling. A spirited debate or 2 in college would have helped prepare him for times like these, where opinion and difference teach one another rather than create distance and departure.

Welcome Back TPMOM.

quote:

Originally posted by Teacherman:
You can have college or you can have college plus 1.8m.

Here is my original statement for the herd WHO HAVE TO TURN THIS INTO AN EITHER OR, so that you don't look as stupid as you are.

PG,
Let me know next time you are in the area, I'll give you a tour...lol.
First we could do Palm Beach, then Boca Raton, then the intercoastal in Ft lauderdale.
My treat
Starzz,
Thanks for understanding my point, everyone has their own opinion.
Teacherman has a lot to learn.

PG hit the nail on the head and did it in a very polite way.

Take the money....Unless you're drafted after the 10th round and get two coupons to McDonald's; a plane ticket; a couple of grand; and, are doomed to be an organizational player.

Can ALWAYS go to college.

Can't always play professional baseball.

A no brainer, folks!

bbscout,

Thanks for recognizing the politeness.

I think money can be a big problem.

If people put themselves in the shoes of the organization paying out the “big bucks”, they might have a different view point.

Do you really want the kid who doesn’t think a million or more is enough?

Is it better if the kid comes from a rich family or a poor family?

Money can do strange things to people!

A poor kid might all of a sudden become satisfied and consider himself a success. His life style changes and not always for the best. His definition of success may not be the same one that the club has.

A rich kid might not think the money is any big deal. Will he work his butt off to get to the top? Will he be hungry enough?

I’ve seen poor kids go both ways. Here’s an interesting story, I’ll make it short as possible.

Carl Crawford

Carl grew up in Houston and didn’t have a pot to piss in. An outstanding athlete, he signed to play football at U of Nebraska. His uncle called us because no one outside Houston knew much about Carl’s baseball ability. His uncle told us that Carl would sign in a heart beat for $50,000 today. That was the winter before his senior high school year.

Carl went to an event in Ft Myers (world Showcase) that winter with the financial help of his uncle. He was the best player and athlete there. Now, everyone in baseball knew that Carl was a early round prospect.

I talked to some Scouting Directors who all thought Carl was a top round talent, but they were scared of his commitment to Nebraska. After all, Nebraska had never lost a football recruit to the baseball draft. Even Erstad played football at Nebraska.

I later called his uncle again and asked him, “What’s it going to take for Carl to sign?” He replied, “$1.3 million!” Things sure had changed over a few months and the $50,000 Carl would have signed for in a heart beat.

We talked his uncle into getting Carl to the National Predraft. Carl was advised against it, but we persisted that he needed to attend. Not to show his ability, but to show he was interested in the draft and that he was signable. After all, you don’t go from Houston Texas to Cedar Rapids Iowa two weeks before the draft unless you want to get drafted and sign. We won out over the adviser and Carl showed up.

He stunk up the place!… couldn’t hit a ball out of the infield even in BP. We felt miserable because we talked him into coming. All of a sudden that talk we gave about the importance of Carl being there just didn’t seem too positive.

On draft day Tampa Bay selected him with the first pick of the second round. Paid him a then record 2nd round figure. More than $1.3 million! I later asked Dan Jennings (then Scouting Director for Tampa Bay) if he was bothered by Carl’s showing in Cedar Rapids. Dan said, “No not at all, just him being there was enough for me.”

So now “poor” Carl, was no longer “poor.” How would he respond? Would he be satisfied like so many others who have fallen victims of the money?

Carl Crawford would have graduated from Nebraska either last year or this year. Instead, last year he was named to the American League All Star team. He led the league in stolen bases. He’s one of the best outfielders in the Big Leagues and maybe the youngest. Money should never again be a problem for Carl Crawford!

By the way, the first pick of the draft that year was also a Tampa Bay pick, who more than tripled Carl’s signing money. Maybe you’ve heard about him… Josh Hamilton.

It takes much more than money to make a big league player. In fact, I think that money has stopped some people from reaching the top.

Sorry for the length of this post, but thought someone might enjoy the story.

Happy Easter to all.
I think this decision is much different for a pitcher versus a position player. If I'm a pitcher I probably take the money with little thought....the downside risk of arm injury during the next 3 years makes the decision for me.

Pg,

An absolutely classic and riviting post. You are a fine writer. This is the type of dialog I was interested in when I created the post.

To continue with the theme of this thread, I don't necessarily see life always having right or wrong answers. I generally respect someone more for having a position and sticking by it than whether or not they happen to agree with how I see things.

It would be great for someone to truly study this issue and collect real evidence.

To me, as I have said, at $1.8 million, the decision remains easy to go to college... for a number of reasons.

1. My belief is that most players are better prepared for baseball success after college than right out of high school. In college, you are a bit sheltered and you can fail softly. In pro baseball, you are competing for a job in a near life or death (figuratively) situation. Fail, and you are done -- without college and without the experience of college baseball.

2. There are plenty of poor ballplayers (some who played in the big leagues) who sure could have benefitted from college. They got there bonus, uncle Same took half, they bought a few cars, a house and flat-out squandered a lot more.

3. There are lots and lots of people in this day and age (mainly with the benefit of a combination of street smarts and education) who make far more than $1.8 million over a relatively short period of time.

4.If you truly are good enough and go to college, that $1.8 million is likely to increase.

5. If you are not good enough, that $1.8 million is unlikely to last long enough to replace college, which the evidence seems to indicate you are probably going to forego.

As I said, I believe most people would be stunned at the number of poor ex-ballplayers out there who essentially are still trying to find their way in life after age 30.

hmmm...
Going to college guarantees only the college experience, not success.
Taking a big signing bonus and not going to college guarantees only the baseball experience and not success.
Doing both guarantees the college and baseball experience but not success in either.


I know a guy with a degree in engineering who owns a Jiffy Lube. We all know of guys who played pro ball at some level who are now either instructors or HS coaches. Does that mean these guys aren't successful?

There are plenty of poor ex-ballplayers AND poor college grads out there who essentially are still trying to find their way in life after age 30. Percentage wise probably more poor ex-ballplayers, numbers wise probably more college grads.

If you do both do you double your odds of success or double your odds of failure?

I have signed 7 players out of HS who recieved modest bonus checks that went back to college and recived their degrees after not making it to the Big Leagues. I have signed three 1st round picks over the years and all three are very well off, and will never have to work again unless they want to. Two of the three signed after their Junior year in College and the third signed out of high school and is still playing. None of the three went back to school, because they don't need to.

I signed out of high school and never made the big leagues, and have done better than most of my pals from high school who went on to college.

I have friends who are poor that went to college and I have some friends who are well off who did not. If you turn down $1.8 mill, which as PG said is only offered to about 15 guys each year you are showing me that you are 1.not very smart or 2. you are afraid of failing. In either case, I would never draft that player again.

bbscout, also some parents just do not view a career in baseball as respectable.

Backdash, again a great post.

Jemaz, I know that it is an easy decision for you. However in all of your calculations you assume that the ballplayer will never go back to school or ever make any more money. That is a miscalculation on your part. 1.8 million in todays dollars is worth far more than 1.8 million 10 years from now. You make valid points, but then you beat a dead horse and over generalize to support your position.

bbrulz, Good post. We could look at it this way too.....after taxes, the player has around 1 million dollars. He then has an opportunity to make a lot more money in the game.He also has a separate package that will pay for his education should he need it. Go to college and then get a job and see how long it takes to save up 1 million dollars....cash.

Now, I'll never have to worry about this scenario. But I'd tell my kid to sign even for half that figure.

5 years of college at a very good school: $220,000.

1 $100,000 5-year CD.
1 $50,000 in a 1-year rollover CD
$100,000 in low- to moderate-risk mutuel funds.
$30,000 in your bank account.

That's a half million dollars. Given this thread, ONLY a half million.

I don't have 10 percent of any single category. And I'll bet there are plenty of other parents out there like me.

Any questions?

The parents who stress the importance of college over a $1 million+ bonus...haven't stressed the importance of college enough to their son to presume he would use the tuition package if it doesn't work out??? "Not working out" would happen within a few, maybe 5 at most, years. The kid's 21-24 years old and well young enough to return to education. I work in an office of 42 people; 7 started college after the age of 26.

There are several factors in the choice to not go to college when baseball doesn't work out, and I would think the primary one would be how many of those players would have gone to college and graduated in any case. The academic ability, desire, and motivaton from home to get a college degree aren't universal attributes for every player.

I agree with PG and bbscout on this.

I have a college education. If my son were offered 1.8MM, I would advise him to take it and make more. If your goal is to make it to the big leagues, this almost assures that you at least get your cup of coffeee. How long that coffee lasts is up to you. trust your ability and take a chance.

While I agree this is a personal decision, it is not as personal as one wants to think.

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/official_info/scholarship.jsp?content=guide

Here is a guide to this program.

Your Chances of Reaching The Major Leagues
http://www.angelfire.com/vt/prospectwatch/index171.html


College vs. Pro
http://www.angelfire.com/vt/prospectwatch/index5.html

I didn't read all of the posts here...did read PG's and as always, very insightful and enjoyable to read. A very balanced perspective.

I want to offer a couple of thoughts:

1. No one should ever second-guess the decision of a given individual for their choices. Only they walk in their shoes and only they must live with the decision. One that I'm somewhate familiar with...John Mayberry Jr. I spent much of the weekend with him and his family. Grounded, solid, kind, good perspective, happy, not second-guessing themselves, truly outstanding people! Whatever their reasons, I'm sure they were good ones. I'm very proud to have my son play with their son.

2. Many of the best moments in my life were in college. Those experiences shaped the rest of my life in a very positive way. I met my wonderful, beautiful wife in college. I have no idea how to put a price on my college experience, but it was worth an awful lot. I don't think it would have been the same if I'd have gone to college when I was 25.

Take the money? I don't second guess anyone who took it and I don't second guess anyone who didn't. Its their decision and theirs only. Barring injury, if you're good enough, you'll make it either way. Make the decision for yourself, not based on what others may think. And don't look back. Its your life, have fun with it!

I would say that bbscout has a vested interest in kids signing. As for not drafting a player again, that is just silly. If the player is good enough, he will get drafted again. Would a team say that about, say, Mark Texiera? It's also vindictive, and I would say that if I were the player I would not want to play for that team. And, for folks who believe they are going to go to school and then make $50,000 a year for a long time, I would understand the reasoning to sign. If I'm in school, I would graduate with more hope and ambition than that and a better and broader perspective than just about any high school graduate I have encountered, including stud baseball players. But, again, there are factors more complicated that they first appear. Will the player save the money and let it grow or will he spend the bulk of it unwisely? Is he mature enough to deal with the rigors of pro baseball at 18, or would he have a better chance of success after three years in college? If he does fail in pro baseball, then what?

Like I said, the choice for our family would be easy, but different than what most have posted here. I do agree it is a personal choice. I will close with the fact that I know far more ex-players searching for their true calling in life than I know guys who have adjusted well to life after baseball, and that is both financial and otherwise.

Take the $1.8 million. Can always go to college but you can't always play professional baseball.

Go to college if you're drafted after the 10th round and they give you 2 McDonald's coupons; $2000 bonus; a plane ticket; and, $850 a month for 3 months. What absolute nonsense pro ball foists on kids!

quote:

Originally posted by BeenthereIL:
Take the $1.8 million. Can always go to college but you can't always play professional baseball.

Go to college if you're drafted after the 10th round and they give you 2 McDonald's coupons; $2000 bonus; a plane ticket; and, $850 a month for 3 months. What absolute nonsense pro ball foists on kids!

You, sir, have nailed it!

quote:

Originally posted by jemaz:
...5. If you are not good enough, that $1.8 million is unlikely to last long enough to replace college, which the evidence seems to indicate you are probably going to forego...

Unbelievable stupidity.

quote:

Originally posted by jemaz:
... Will the player save the money and let it grow or will he spend the bulk of it unwisely?

...Is he mature enough to deal with the rigors of pro baseball at 18, or would he have a better chance of success after three years in college?

...If he does fail in pro baseball, then what?

The answer to all three of your questions is......it's irrelevant.

Quit clouding the issue.

Here is the question in it's simplest form.

Do you want college or college and 1.8M? Any other side issues are irrelevant to the question.

You have to be afraid of money.

jemaz, If a team spends 1.8 on you, They are going to make darn sure that you succeed.

Sark makes a good point. If you received a $1.8mm signing bonus last year, you would have been roughly the 10th pick in the draft.
That being the case, you would expect the odds of succeeding in the bigs to be much higher than normal.

I personally take the money.

A college degree is in the hands of 1/3 of all 25 year olds these days...you aren't all that distinguished with a college degree.

If you take the money, you have 1 mil in the bank, invest it, and you have more than enough to pay for any college you want to go to.

Additionally, how many first round picks are going to spend 7 years in the minors if things don't work out? I, personally, would hang things up after about 5 or 6 years if things didn't show signs of improvement, leaving me graduating college in my late 20s with a huge bank account...where's the downside?

Anyways, just my opinions. Again, this is assuming that if you take the 1.8 mil you aren't an idiot and you don't go off and buy 36 hummers...

quote:

Originally posted by jemaz:
I would say that bbscout has a vested interest in kids signing. As for not drafting a player again, that is just silly. If the player is good enough, he will get drafted again. Would a team say that about, say, Mark Texiera? It's also vindictive, and I would say that if I were the player I would not want to play for that team. And, for folks who believe they are going to go to school and then make $50,000 a year for a long time, I would understand the reasoning to sign. If I'm in school, I would graduate with more hope and ambition than that and a better and broader perspective than just about any high school graduate I have encountered, including stud baseball players. But, again, there are factors more complicated that they first appear. Will the player save the money and let it grow or will he spend the bulk of it unwisely? Is he mature enough to deal with the rigors of pro baseball at 18, or would he have a better chance of success after three years in college? If he does fail in pro baseball, then what?

Like I said, the choice for our family would be easy, but different than what most have posted here. I do agree it is a personal choice. I will close with the fact that I know far more ex-players searching for their true calling in life than I know guys who have adjusted well to life after baseball, and that is both financial and otherwise.

Jemaz, For every Texiera there is a Kenny Henderson or Matt Harrington. Nothing vindictive about it.....if I feel a player is afraid,or not very smart, I don't want to draft him period, let alone give him a million dollars. If a kid turns down 1.8, he is already showing you he does not want to play for your team.

Rigors of pro ball????? I played for quite a while and never thought of pro ball in that respect. Every day was Saturday and every night was special.

I would bet you a steak dinner that if one of your son's was a first round pick out of high school, he would sign a contract and you would be smiling in the picture right next to him.

As long as I am spouting my opinions, here is one more. Does anyone realize how many first round picks who were drafted out of college went back and got their degrees?? I know 16 personally who never set foot in a classroom because they had very large bank accounts and never saw the need for it. Since most college 1st rounders sign after their Junior year of school and most are on the 5 year plan, they are in most cases two years away from graduation.

bbscout:

You may be right, but, still, I can't help but believe that if the boy truly is talented he will only increase his value in college and that the risk of injury in comparison is minimal. The greater risk, of course, is that the boy indeed is not good enough and college will expose him for what he is -- a player worth perhaps a whole lot less than $1.8 million.

An 18 year old kid who is mature enough to invest his money as many have suggested will do fine whether he goes back for a degree later or not,

On the other hand an 18 year old kid who would blow the 1.8 million and not go back to get his degree as some have suggested may very well be the same kid who spends more time at the parties than in classs and ends up with a degree but little education. He will struggle either route his chooses.

Most kids fall somewhere in between.

There simply is no right or wrong answer. You can find regrets down any path you choose, or you can choose not to look back instead.

The decision has nothing to do with the 18 yr olds maturity. It has nothing to do with whether he blows the money or not.

The decision is made before you know any of that.

The decision is so fricking obvious that it is ridiculous to even talk about it.

I like PG's suggestion. Take baseball out of it. Some millionaire wants to give you 1.8M and you're going to say no.

Shake your head people.....too many cobwebs.

Teacherman,

I agree completely with your thoughts on this subject. As far as the herd mentality---you could not be more right. This is a no-brainer. I am currently working with THREE college grads. who are making $30k/yr! That's alot of years to get to $1.8Mil.

Teacherman

I see I as not clear as you misunderstand the side I have taken.

I would not hesitate to suggest they take the money and the opportunity now and get their degree later, and I feel a degree is of great value.

The point I was trying to make was that if a kid lacks the maturity to handle the situation he may very well lack the maturity to do well in college as well.

My opinion is that if you actually have the opportunity to make that amount of money AND it is your dream to be a professional baseball player, it is a mistake not to sign. Yes, it is possible that you may make more if you move up the draft list, but the odds of moving down are a lot greater than being one of the half dozen players who may get more than $1.8 million.

Reality is that it may turn out to be a once in a lifetime opportunity to make a lump sum like that. Of course, you also need to make sure you have good financial advice so that you don't blow it.

If your dream is elsewhere, I think then college is a reasonable option.

If someone turns down life changing money, unless they come from a wealthy family, I would have to question if they have the intelligence to even make it through college.

Interesting discussion. The issue of course is the player. Is he going to college primarily to continue his baseball career, or is baseball a means to get a college education? Now, if the answer is that the player is going to college primarily to continue playing baseball (continuing his dream), the decision making gets much easier.
My son signed out of high school for much, much less than the numbers thrown around. My only concern was that he get enough money that he could modestly live on for 6-7 years and not worry where his next meal was coming from.
As a family, we know the odds are not in my son's favor to make it to the show, but there was no doubt in our mind to support his decision to try.
He just turned 20. Daily, he's getting the best coaching available playing against some of the best young players in the country. Having primarily Latin coaches and teammates his first year,he's experienced cultures that he normally would have never been exposed to. He's told me more than once he has experienced "life" like none of his old friends.
What happens if he "fails"?. Matter of definition. He's already experienced more than most. He's a stronger person emotionally and is extremely focused. Even if he never gets his "cup-of-coffee", it's been worth it.
Now, back to practicality. A year from this November I believe is his Rule 5 draft opportunity. If his team elects not to put him on the 40 man, and he doesn't get drafted by another team, maybe the writing is on the wall for a possible career change, at the ripe old age of 22. He does have a scholarship set aside, so he has an opportunity to try something else. Will he make it? He already has in my mind. Take care to all.

NVR - Nice post. Good luck to your son in which ever direction he chooses to go!

PG is right. $1,800,000 is too much for an 18 year old to spend to pitch to aluminum bats, ride busses between Gainesville, Columbia, Oxford and Fayetteville; and hope to get to Omaha.

He is 1-2, sporting a 5.67 ERA and worked his way down to the # 3 starter job, hardly 1st round or 15th round numbers. He was expected to claim the #1 spot when the Gators signed him last fall.

He is simply not the pitcher he once was.

My kid did not have the choice Mr. Horne had. While he is having fun and earning a degree, I know the choice he would have made if he had it.

Mr. Hornes choice simply defies logic. I wish him well.

Just to set the record straight. I am not against those that choose to go to college and turn down a large amount of money to do something they love.

In fact, I have a lot of respect for those who go the college route rather than take the money.

I just don't always understand the logic.

Among other things, people go to college to enhance their ability to earn money.

When a club spends $1.8 million, that club expects the player to contribute at the Big League level. So in some cases the $1.8 million becomes many millions more.

To me when the worst case scenerio is receiving $1.8 million and not making it to the Big Leagues, that's not a life ender.

Going to college, flunking and failing to get the degree, and never getting the money or the chance to live out your dream, that is pretty sad.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I will say that if McDonalds offered my son $1.8 million in advance to skip college and flip burgers with a chance to someday own many franchises and if he changed his mind and wanted to go to school they would pay for it. Well, My son would have been in the hamburger business.

Of course, playing baseball is better than flippin burgers. If the only reason a person chooses baseball as a possible career is because of the money, they have one foot deep into failure.

When the game starts, there is no advantage to those with the biggest bank account.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I will say that if McDonalds offered my son $1.8 million in advance to skip college and flip burgers with a chance to someday own many franchises and if he changed his mind and wanted to go to school they would pay for it. Well, My son would have been in the hamburger business.

As far as analogies go I think you hit this one on the screws.

quote:

you hit this one on the screws

Its down middle of the fairway...and very long.

No, PG's analogy is a Grand Slam Homerun.

When you come to a fork in the road....TAKE IT!

PGStaff - I love your posts and I surely hope that you didn't think I was second-guessing anything you said. I am riveted to this website by posts from you, Fungo and some others...you provide such a great perspective on it all.

This thread comes up a few times a year and I don't think any minds are ever changed. I do know that while I thought for sure I would feel one way on the issue of signing for "X" amount of dollars, when the situation became potentially real, I felt very differently. Actually, my wife and I swapped positions. Our son did not have the option for the kinds of dollars discussed here, but he did have an option for a pretty fair amount and in the end, it was his decision, as it should be.

I've talked to a number of other websters who were faced with similar decisions and they went both ways on it. Its not easy and only one family/one player knows whats in their heart and should make such a decision for themselves. It isn't always about money and there isn't any real need for others to understand IMO.

justbaseball,

I live in the world of second-guessing. I don't think you were second-guessing, but if so, that's perfectly all right. I'm used to it and even second-guess myself quite often.

Not once will we ever give advice to players or parents regarding signing or not signing. After all, either way it could turn out to be BAD advice.

Everyone should do what feels right to in their situation. No one else should belittle that decision. Even if it's a high school kid who signs for nothing more than the chance. Or the high school kid who turns down $1.8 million and goes to school.

I can only say what I would do. That's the only time my opinion really counts. I would love to have a 17 or 18 year old son I could call "millionaire". Especially as I watch him doing what he truly loves.

On the other hand, if he decided to turn it down and attend college. I'd be very proud of him. Of course, I would need to stay away from sharp objects and blunt instruments for awhile.

Ok, I am also going come to a fork in the road in my opinion. At that type of bonus money offered, out of HS, pretty high on the list to make sure that you will succeed, so I say take it. Do know that there are some players who desire to come out of the draft with more than the standard minor league contract, not just a nice signing bonus. JMO
As Justbaseball states, one really never knows unless faced with the decision.
As far as calling anyone an idiot or referring to the herd mentality, there is no place for it when people are giving their opinions and that is my argument.
PG, as always your insight is most appreciated.

What someone does at 18 is a personal decision, whether it is defending our country, going to school or going to work. I certainly did not mean to be critical of the decision either way. I am sure there were factors we don't know of that influenced the decision. Perhaps bad advice was taken. Who knows. I don't. All I know is that my son would have done differently.

BB Scout;
Several years ago, we had 5 American Team players drafted in the 1st round. One of the players who you and I know was drafted by the Cardinals. I told the father to sign but refuse the bonus money and request a "Bud" Beer distributorship anywhere in the World.

This would have provided income for life.

You mentioned Kenny Henderson and Matt Harrington also former American players who played against the Japan National Team.

Their advisors were guilty of an ego trip
and did not consider the player, who wanted to play professionally as an 18 year old.

the Consultant - Bob Williams

There are several words that describe people who turn down a gift of 1.8M.

I'm not at all ashamed of my choice.

And, all you who think there is "grey" area here instead of black and white, the same words apply to you.

I can only assume you'll also turn down any other unforseen windfall that comes your way.
(found lottery ticket, inheritance from long lost uncle, salary raise, etc etc)

My last try at putting the question in it's simplest form wasn't simple enough for most of you. I guess you need one sentence instead of two.

This is a simple as it gets. Do you want 1.8M?....yes or no.

Because you still get to play baseball....you still get to go to college.....your acceptance guarantees several years to develop....you'll get the benefit of the doubt from any and all coaches and general managers.......

So........yes.....or idiot.

Teacherman, Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Heck, 40 years ago this June I took $20,000 and I still have a grin on my face.

Teacherman - I'm really not interested in arguing with you, but you imply that all their is to life is having a lot of money. Sorry, but it doesn't work that way for me. But thats just me and I don't look back either. Many times in my life I have "taken the money" and many times I have not. Just the way it is. Sorry if it doesn't fit your model of intelligence or happiness.

quote:

Originally posted by justbaseball:
Teacherman - I'm really not interested in arguing with you, but you imply that all their is to life is having a lot of money. Sorry, but it doesn't work that way for me. But thats just me and I don't look back either. Many times in my life I have "taken the money" and many times I have not. Just the way it is. Sorry if it doesn't fit your model of intelligence or happiness.

Red Herring.

Stick to the issue.

No where did I say all there is to life is money.

That's all there is to this question though.

Tell us, how many times have you turned down 1.8M

You know what, all I'm saying is that there are different perspectives on this and I have come to respect them and even understand them a lot more than I used too...both ways. Whether or not I have turned down $1.8M IS a red herring IMO...but I can tell you that I know someone who turned down more than that and "idiot" is certainly not a word I would use to describe him.

Would you call someone who walked away for a near-full ride scholarship at a quality D1 school for $100K an idiot? How about for $50K? I wouldn't, but some would. It was THEIR choice and they know the reasons they made it. Not for me to second-guess.

Haven't you ever thought you would feel or act in a certain way given a set of circumstances, yet when you're actually in those circumstances you see things differently? Very few people get to experience this decision point whether its $50K or $1.8M. Unless you've been in either position, I doubt you really know what you would do for sure.

I believe its an easy choice. Do you want to play pro ball or not. If its not a easy choice you should go to college.

How about if you want to do both? Go to college and play pro ball? If so, there are two paths and the best path depends on the person making the choice.

Don't make it sound like college players or someone turning down a lot of money doesn't want to play pro ball. Thats a big-time over-simplification.

I think it is simple. If there is no doubt in your mind, you want to play pro ball you do it. If you are not sure or want to do both, your choice should be college.

I am nearly 50 years old, have a college degree, and I have not yet made $1.8 Million dollars in my life. I would advise my son to take the money and consider college later, assuming it was $1.8M and not $20,000.

I respect the choice of anyone who chooses to do otherwise.

quote:

In college, you are a bit sheltered and you can fail softly.

Jemaz, I'm not sure you've got this right. Any high schooler who's turned down $1.8m will no doubt end up at a major D1 program. These programs are not in the business of gently developing talent...they are in business to win NOW. Players who struggle don't play; a potential real blow to the confidence of a kid who may be physically gifted but not ready to compete head to head with more mature players. Conversely, as someone else pointed out, a $1.8m bonus is an investment by a team they don't want to see fail. They will place that kid in a situation where he can succeed at his own pace. Bottom line is risk of failure may actually be higher in a pressure-filled D1 program.

Here is my take on this topic. Adam Loewen, a couple years ago was drafted 4th overall by the Orioles. Now he was offered something like 2.8 million or something like that, I don't quite remember the exact amount. The player who was drafted 4th overall the year before got 4 million and so being drafted in the same slot should entitle the player to the same type of money. I understand that it seems gready and that only an idiot would turn down the 2.8, but I was around Adam while he was going through the negotiations and the "agent/advisor" has a LOT to do with what the kid signs for. Adam wasn't being gready, he just felt he was being low balled, and I think rightfully so. I talked with Adam the last day before he was to go to college and he was still undecided on whether he should take the money or not. Yes, he would be set for the rest of his life and he would risk injury and never getting the money if he went to college, but sometimes it's about the principal. Adam and his agent chose not to take the money and went down to Chipola JC in Fla. and it all worked in his favour. He had a full ride to ASU but figured if he went to Chipola he could re-enter the draft the very next year. This was all risk but it worked for him and I don't blame him one bit. I think before people make assumptions of kids, you have to really know them and know what went on behind closed doors before you can give them a label of being greedy or whatnot. In the end, Adam got what a 4th overall pick was getting at the time and the Orioles didn't get to low ball him. I still don't think these kids are worth that much money since they haven't proven themselves in the big leagues, but if someone is going to pay the money, why not take it?

quote:

Yes, he would be set for the rest of his life and he would risk injury and never getting the money if he went to college, but sometimes it's about the principal.

No one ever said being right was free. I'm glad things worked out.

I just can't imagine the scenario as a high school student saying "Mr. Angelos, I just can't compromise my principals and take that check for $2,400,000. I'm sure you understand."

"Please forward any correspondence to Chipola Jr. College, Freshman Dorm."

For some people in this world it is not all about the money--don't ever forget that !

That's a good thing because employers need employees.

The Adam Loewen case is interesting. He turned down the 4 year college and turned down the 2.8 million. He instead attended a Junior College for what one has to think was the ability to sign for more than the 2.8 or get redrafted and get more.

The risk paid off in his case because he ended up getting over 4 million from the same club that drafted him before.

I guess, you could say it was all about principle, but obviously it seems it was all about the money.

In his case it worked out well financially, but now will it work out for the Orioles. In his first year of pro ball he averaged over 6 walks per 9 innings with nearly a 5.00 ERA in the lower levels. It will be interesting to see how this all plays out.

I've always had a hard time thinking there are 4 million dollar "bargains" out there playing high school baseball. 4 million is the present cost of three mid 1st rounders. Of course it's cheaper than signing established free agents.

I understand and agree with what most of you are saying. I personally would of taken the money Adam was offered in the first place. I really think his decision was highly influenced by his agent. The way Adam acted the last few days before he went to Chipola wasn't the same Adam. He was really stressing over the situation, which I understand and didn't want to come across as he did come across, greedy. Adams parents are both teachers and would of rathered seen him go to ASU and get an education then see what happens after. I guess you can't make everyone happy, but I know Adam didn't do it for the money. And like I said before, I don't think anyone is worth 4 million until they prove themselves in the big leagues.

PS...on how Adam's done in his first couple season, yeah it's been very rocky and I'm sure they have expected way more, but he was injured and says he feels 100% this year. I think this year will be a big year for him and everyone can see just how good he can be.