Playbaseball, I think everybody agree's that drinking anytime your underage, and the fact your on a recruiting visit.
It's a stupid idea.
From both side's, the recruited and the recruiter.
And if there's rules then you should beheld accountible for your action's.
It's the severity of the punishment that's in question.
I don't believe in a total complete banishment, without a chance to redeem one's trust.
quote:Originally posted by theEH:
It's the severity of the punishment that's in question.
I'm wondering if there is a difference in policy with regards to punishment between a private and public school.
I have no doubt that drinking underage is a stupid idea, I have no doubt that even drinking when you are OF the age on a recruiting visit is a stupid idea, just like I think that drinking during a job interview at lunch at a restaurant is a stupid idea, even a glass of wine, unless you are interviewing for a job at a winery.
I'm also not commenting on "activities" that may go on in any program. I'm just wondering because of all of the friction that is occurring here, if the difference in rules and tolerance is because of the differences in private vs. public schools, and the rules that a private school must follow vs. a public school due to government funding.
For example, the entire town in which I live is a National Historic Landmark. When my village wants to improve its roads in order to maintain the integrity of the historic attributes of the village, if the village pays for the repairs itself, it doesn't have to follow any federal guidelines. But. If my village asks for and expects to receive federal money to repair the roads, then it needs to follow the federal mandated rules for road improvement.
Relating that scenario to this issue: If a private religious school does not receive any federal funding, can they set whatever rules they want? Once upon a time, they could. They were not bound by the types of rules that public schools were. I'm not sure if it is true today. That is what I am wondering/speculating.
it'd be interesting for you to follow up with observations on your son's progress/expectations now 2 yrs down the road. would he have picked school #1 if they had taken him to starbucks that night (even tho parties were still going on, he just wasn't there)quote:by playbb: Two years ago .. one of my sons went to visit two colleges .. and spent a night with each .. He scratched (one) off of his list because he was taken to a party and he was incredibly turned off. He did not have the same experience at the other school
btw, there's no friction here
"the differences between small private colleges and large public universities...."
I do kinda have an observation (caution un-scientific) -
my son attended an urban university in Atlanta & during offseason there was usually beer in the fridge of dorm (presumably for cooking brats
). weekend parties at bbhouse were heavy on ping-pong, music, & bbq w/beer & sweet-tea availa few local NAIA's have much stricter on campus dorm rules - however their weekend off campus bashes seem much more extreme than the laid back stuff I saw at "Big U".
This has been a very, very interesting topic. I've enjoyed reading everyone's input on this.
I'll go ahead and offer an example that will more then likely throw yet another wrench into the system.
I've been talking to some local friends about this subject lately to hear what they felt about it, since the drinking age is different up here in Canada anywheres from age 18-19 pending upon what Province one lives in.
Almost every guy I talked to who went down for a visit were of age up here had a drink because they thought nothing of it. The difference in the legal age to consume alcohol never crossed their mind. They forgot about it until they got down there to attend school in the fall and got turned away when they went to buy drinks at a restaurant, variety store, grocery store etc.
Now when reading how some people would kick players off the team or wouldn't consider the player as a recruit anymore for something like this... and I know rules are rules. But when I first went to school, no one advised me of the legal drinking age. No Teammates, Coaching Staff or University Staff. I never heard anything about the age until I heard some fellow freshmen saying they were looking for someone 21 to buy them a case a beer. So I guess my question is What about those who are use to being able to drink at that age? (I know this situation is few and far between) But you would still kick someone off a team or drop them from your radar because they simply didn't know or weren't told of the drinking age?
I'll go ahead and offer an example that will more then likely throw yet another wrench into the system.
I've been talking to some local friends about this subject lately to hear what they felt about it, since the drinking age is different up here in Canada anywheres from age 18-19 pending upon what Province one lives in.
Almost every guy I talked to who went down for a visit were of age up here had a drink because they thought nothing of it. The difference in the legal age to consume alcohol never crossed their mind. They forgot about it until they got down there to attend school in the fall and got turned away when they went to buy drinks at a restaurant, variety store, grocery store etc.
Now when reading how some people would kick players off the team or wouldn't consider the player as a recruit anymore for something like this... and I know rules are rules. But when I first went to school, no one advised me of the legal drinking age. No Teammates, Coaching Staff or University Staff. I never heard anything about the age until I heard some fellow freshmen saying they were looking for someone 21 to buy them a case a beer. So I guess my question is What about those who are use to being able to drink at that age? (I know this situation is few and far between) But you would still kick someone off a team or drop them from your radar because they simply didn't know or weren't told of the drinking age?
quote:Originally posted by play baseball:quote:Originally posted by theEH:
It's the severity of the punishment that's in question.
I'm wondering if there is a difference in policy with regards to punishment between a private and public school.
I prefer the word consequences.
PBB,
My son attends a public university, but I would guess if you asked a parent from a large to mid D1 private school (Tulane, Vandy, Standford, Duke) you would get the same response regarding philosophies.
IMO, small private catholic school college students are no different than those attending public schools. They should be treated with respect as maturing adults and know the consequences. Someone told me once that the same thing goes down at her son's private school as other schools. In fact, I would tend to guess that those schools have a tendency to look more the other way.
Freshman dorm rooms often are equipped with "beerators". No one comes to check up on them but consequences if caught with it outside of their room.
I am not saying I agree with the way alcohol flows freely on college campus. I don't see any difference from now than when I went to college 32 years ago. In fact, I was a college student of the early 70's during Vietnam, make love not war, so let's not go there with that one!
I object to ANY college coach thinking he is so above it all that a zero tolerance policy must be put in place. You have to place reasonable rules in place and if they get out of hand, then deal with it, but making rules for young adults and legal adults that are unachievable is silly.
The original purpose of this thread is very important.
When our 07 son had an official visit last fall, we pulled this thread up and had him read it. It opened up our eyes and his and gave us an opportunity to talk to our son about what to maybe expect and to talk about how he would handle things. Every family has different parenting styles and thoughts about this issue.
The direction this thread has taken off in makes for some interesting discussion and reading!
When our 07 son had an official visit last fall, we pulled this thread up and had him read it. It opened up our eyes and his and gave us an opportunity to talk to our son about what to maybe expect and to talk about how he would handle things. Every family has different parenting styles and thoughts about this issue.
The direction this thread has taken off in makes for some interesting discussion and reading!
quote:Originally posted by curveball07:
The original purpose of this thread is very important.
It's golden!
agree, and the off track discussion pretty entertaining too.quote:by cb: The original purpose of this thread is very important
tho, after 10 pages of basicly agreeing that alcohol on visit a no-no
please speak up if anyone has a way to get an 18 yr old kid:
being recruited by his "dream institution",
welcomed on the scoreboard,
name on his locker & uni,
hanging w/older guys,
feeling immortal,
feeling his hormones,
already knowing more than BOTH parents ever could,
AND .. getting a taste of real freedom & independence ...
to think the way parents do??
imo,
the only real shot you have then is how ya raised him those past 17 yrs
& much of that is luck
curveball07 - you make good points.
This has been an outstanding thread regardless of it taking a detour now and then. I hope/pray kids who go on recruiting visits are not put in the awkward position of being exposed to alcohol. Just maybe one player or coach who has read this thread will try to ensure it never happens on a recruting visit at their respective campus.
After kids matriculate, well... there will be temptations. We all were kids and that is part of going to college. Before mine left to school, I begged and pleaded with him on two things. I said please come home at night and do your homework - get it out of the way. When the homework is done, then it is time to enjoy campus life.
I said if alcohol was ever involved, to please never, never, never get behind the wheel of a car or get in the car with someone who has been drinking. I said I didn't care if he called me at 3:00 in the morning that I would pay for a cab or what not. I believe he has honored my wishes in those two areas and I pray that he and all of your kids get through college safely
This has been an outstanding thread regardless of it taking a detour now and then. I hope/pray kids who go on recruiting visits are not put in the awkward position of being exposed to alcohol. Just maybe one player or coach who has read this thread will try to ensure it never happens on a recruting visit at their respective campus.
After kids matriculate, well... there will be temptations. We all were kids and that is part of going to college. Before mine left to school, I begged and pleaded with him on two things. I said please come home at night and do your homework - get it out of the way. When the homework is done, then it is time to enjoy campus life.
I said if alcohol was ever involved, to please never, never, never get behind the wheel of a car or get in the car with someone who has been drinking. I said I didn't care if he called me at 3:00 in the morning that I would pay for a cab or what not. I believe he has honored my wishes in those two areas and I pray that he and all of your kids get through college safely
quote:Originally posted by ClevelandDad:
I said if alcohol was ever involved, to please never, never, never get behind the wheel of a car or get in the car with someone who has been drinking. I said I didn't care if he called me at 3:00 in the morning that I would pay for a cab or what not. I believe he has honored my wishes in those two areas and I pray that he and all of your kids get through college safely.
I think we all have given this speech!
And prayed the same prayer!!!!
Bee-Didn't realize golfing was illegal in SC. Or is it underage drinking is now legal?
BTW did you ever say where you draw the line? Rules, no rules, enlighten us with your
rare "horse sense".
Me, zero tolerance?? Where did that come from?
BTW did you ever say where you draw the line? Rules, no rules, enlighten us with your
rare "horse sense".
Me, zero tolerance?? Where did that come from?
USC "golf gate" ...quote:by moc1: Bee-Didn't realize golfing was illegal in SC... Rules, no rules, enlighten us with your rare "horse sense"
ncaa suspended 4 players for golfing during the summer at a discounted rate - - -
a thorough audit revealed that the majority (51%) owner of the golf course was a USC grad,
hence benefits accepted from a booster - true - ask Bob Hempy
horse sense:
I'd have had them mow fairways for a week to even out any benefit, then as employees they could'a golfed & ate FREE forever
my rules?
there were "house rules" & "horse sense" up to 17 yrs ...
after that only 2 -
show up/call me on father's day
show up/call Mom on mother's day
something worked, he lived in mid-town Atlanta for 5 yrs & his only brush with the the authorities was not having proof of insurance at a safty check
& a few parking tickets
BEE, I have no doubt you were a good Dad-and you'll probably get one(or more) calls this Sunday.
But.....we're not talking parenthood. Coaches don't always get players that were raised with the values that you instilled
in your son. Coaching would be easy(easier) if that were the case. Since you questioned one poster's thoughts-and I suppose
his intentions-about what he would implement as far as consequences for HIS team, why not tell us what your rule(s) would be concerning alcoholic beverage consumption. Seriously, it's very easy to come on this site and disagree with someone's
thoughts and ideas but I think it would be very helpful to then say what you would do if YOU were the coach. Put yourself
into the position of being in charge of 25-35 17-23 year old young men-all from different backgrounds and upbringing and
let us know what you would say at the first team meating about alcohol and how you would enforce the breaking of the rules.
It's possible Coach 2709 might change his views a little if he can see some alternative measures to be taken. I tend to feel that he may be a little too strict in his consequences for a first offense but I also know that these guys are away
from home for the first time and are ready to test the limits on everything. Hey, if this were a perfect world we wouldn't
need ANY laws would we? But since it's not, laws/rules/limits have to be set so that everyone can get along and respect
each others spaces. You had "house rules" and used "horse sense" raising your son, I commend you for that, what about the
other players on the team that weren't raised that way?
But.....we're not talking parenthood. Coaches don't always get players that were raised with the values that you instilled
in your son. Coaching would be easy(easier) if that were the case. Since you questioned one poster's thoughts-and I suppose
his intentions-about what he would implement as far as consequences for HIS team, why not tell us what your rule(s) would be concerning alcoholic beverage consumption. Seriously, it's very easy to come on this site and disagree with someone's
thoughts and ideas but I think it would be very helpful to then say what you would do if YOU were the coach. Put yourself
into the position of being in charge of 25-35 17-23 year old young men-all from different backgrounds and upbringing and
let us know what you would say at the first team meating about alcohol and how you would enforce the breaking of the rules.
It's possible Coach 2709 might change his views a little if he can see some alternative measures to be taken. I tend to feel that he may be a little too strict in his consequences for a first offense but I also know that these guys are away
from home for the first time and are ready to test the limits on everything. Hey, if this were a perfect world we wouldn't
need ANY laws would we? But since it's not, laws/rules/limits have to be set so that everyone can get along and respect
each others spaces. You had "house rules" and used "horse sense" raising your son, I commend you for that, what about the
other players on the team that weren't raised that way?
Mom gets the creditquote:by moc: BEE, I have no doubt you were a good Dad
moc, pehaps someone who needs 24-7 supervision shouldn't be in collegequote:by moc1: Put yourself into the position of being in charge of 25-35 17-23 year old young men-all from different backgrounds and upbringing and
let us know what you would say at the first team meating about alcohol and how you would enforce the breaking of the rules.
and quite possibly our experiences and/or expectations are very different.
I'll be happy to describe how a TOP program works
my son and his 17-23 yr old team-mates didn't have anyone in charge of them ...
as players they had baseball & conditioning coaches,
as students they had profs/instructors and the institution.
they understood the expectations and structure of each
their team meeting -
regarding off field conduct they were instructed to:
"familiarize yourself with GT's Student Conduct Code,
you get NO SPECIAL TREATMENT as an athlete" ..
the rest was baseball & team structure stuff.
it seems like they covered just about everything they felt was important
a disciplined team is NOT the result of having a fat book of team rules!
off field issues I was aware of were dealt with by university policies, including a Christmas break underage drinking incident that got BA coverage.
*note -
of course, there could'a/would'a been many incidents I wasn't aware of,
as privacy laws & policies KEPT THEM CONFIDENTIAL!!!!
2709 can do things anyway he wants to, I expressed my opinion and do not endorse him or his methods.
available to all w/a click of the mouse HE identifies his college as Pikeville College in a "recent post" - - I take issue w/him publicly posting that all players leaving his college are being dismissed for alcohol & drug issues, which you seem ok with.
do coaches get punished for breaking rules?
you're just not catching on to the obvious - - we HAVE laws, limits HAVE been set ..quote:by moc1: if this were a perfect world we wouldn't need ANY laws would we? But since it's not, laws/rules/limits have to be set
from your view ...
the Parent's rule re underage drinking is not enough for ya ..
ok, so add the State Law re underage drinking -- still not enough ..
ok, so add the City's law re underage drinking -- still not enough ..
ok, so add the University's rule re underage drinking -- STILL not enough ..
then ... add the Coach's rule - now all is well
breaking 4 laws/rules no deterent ... BUT breaking 5 WILL DETER
with all due respect, that's silly
quote:Originally posted by Bee>:Mom gets the creditquote:by moc: BEE, I have no doubt you were a good Dadmoc, pehaps someone who needs 24-7 supervision shouldn't be in collegequote:by moc1: Put yourself into the position of being in charge of 25-35 17-23 year old young men-all from different backgrounds and upbringing and
let us know what you would say at the first team meating about alcohol and how you would enforce the breaking of the rules.
and quite possibly our experiences and/or expectations are very different.
I'll be happy to describe how a TOP program works
my son and his 17-23 yr old team-mates didn't have anyone in charge of them ...
as players they had baseball & conditioning coaches,
as students they had profs/instructors and the institution.
they understood the expectations and structure of each
their team meeting -
regarding off field conduct they were instructed to:
"familiarize yourself with GT's Student Conduct Code,
you get NO special treatment as an athlete" ..
the rest was baseball & team structure stuff.
it seems like they covered just about everything they felt was important
a disciplined team is NOT the result of having a fat book of team rules!
off field issues I was aware of were dealt with by university policies, including a Christmas break underage drinking incident that got BA coverage.
*note -
of course, there could'a/would'a been many incidents I wasn't aware of,
as privacy laws & policies KEPT THEM CONFIDENTIAL!!!!
2709 can do things anyway he wants to, I expressed my opinion and do not endorse him or his methods.
available to all w/a click of the mouse HE identifies his college as Pikeville College in a "recent post" - - I take issue w/him publicly posting that all players leaving his college are being dismissed for alcohol & drug issues, which you seem ok with.
do coaches get punished for breaking rules?
I wasn't in the room when son's coach holds his 2-3 hour first meeting, but I would suspect the same as above.
I also take issue with this Coach publicly announcing what he did about a school he may be employed at.
I started to respond to your last two posts but realized that you would probably make some more illogical assumptions about me and my views. Suffice it to say that my view is that a coach who allows 17-23 year old young men to make their own rules and regulations will not be in the coaching ranks very long.
As far as my view on disclosing info on players being dismissed from college-silence doesn't mean agreement. Another
wrong assumption on your part.
my sincere appologies for any wrong assumptions, I'll take you at your word that sometimes what you write isn't what you mean ..
do agree tho - - that silence can be hard to figure unless ... it's from Mrs Bee> 
in the real world ...
"a young man who needs 24-7 off-field babysitting won't be playing for any Top program/Top coach too long" - that's how it is!
and ...
parents expecting "off-campus lifestyle management" by a college coaching staff are out of touch
good luck tho & I enjoy the discussion for the benefit of younger players & parents
ps - just wondering were ya also "silent" about Nifong (now disbarred/disgraced) in the Duke fiasco too???
do agree tho - - that silence can be hard to figure
unless ... it's from Mrs Bee> I never said that, tho do respect your view ... but again, ya got it backazzwords --quote:by moc1: my view is that a coach who allows .. young men to make their own rules and regulations will not be in the coaching ranks very long
in the real world ...
"a young man who needs 24-7 off-field babysitting won't be playing for any Top program/Top coach too long" - that's how it is!
and ...
parents expecting "off-campus lifestyle management" by a college coaching staff are out of touch
good luck tho & I enjoy the discussion for the benefit of younger players & parents
ps - just wondering were ya also "silent" about Nifong (now disbarred/disgraced) in the Duke fiasco too???
BEE, I find it amusing that you've gone back and changed virtually every one of your posts from what your originally stated. For anyone reading these from the beginning it may be difficult to follow when the original posts have been edited.
You have your opinion-note, opinion, I have mine. I have not edited any of my posts and I think it's fairly clear where I stand. I MEAN what I posted and to make assumptions as you often do without any basis is kind of "silly"-the word you chose to edit TO from "ridiculous" in your previous post.
You and others feel coaches should not give college players rules and regulations, fine-I disagree. I've known and played for coaches(some with National Championships) and they ALL had rules concerning alcoholic consumption. The way that they meted out discipline
for the breaking of those rules varied-but it was certainly clear to the players what
the discipline would be.
To me it's rather naive on your part to believe that once a player leaves home he is "ready" to take on the world and needs no limits imposed on him by a college coach of all people-even though that coach may be "paying" for part of his education and has their
undivided attention for quite a bit of their total college time.
Hopefully, after 4 to 5 years of college life a young man will have matured to the point
that he no longer needs to have any limits imposed upon him and will be able to make intelligent choices, but to think an 18 year old should be able to handle being alone for the first time and not succumb to peer pressure is "silly". Most of the coaches that I know understand this and have rules in place. It may be different for Georgia Tech, good for them, but please don't ASSUME that's the case in all colleges-it isn't.
Good luck to you as well and it would be helpful if you would note when you go back and edit your posts.
You have your opinion-note, opinion, I have mine. I have not edited any of my posts and I think it's fairly clear where I stand. I MEAN what I posted and to make assumptions as you often do without any basis is kind of "silly"-the word you chose to edit TO from "ridiculous" in your previous post.
You and others feel coaches should not give college players rules and regulations, fine-I disagree. I've known and played for coaches(some with National Championships) and they ALL had rules concerning alcoholic consumption. The way that they meted out discipline
for the breaking of those rules varied-but it was certainly clear to the players what
the discipline would be.
To me it's rather naive on your part to believe that once a player leaves home he is "ready" to take on the world and needs no limits imposed on him by a college coach of all people-even though that coach may be "paying" for part of his education and has their
undivided attention for quite a bit of their total college time.
Hopefully, after 4 to 5 years of college life a young man will have matured to the point
that he no longer needs to have any limits imposed upon him and will be able to make intelligent choices, but to think an 18 year old should be able to handle being alone for the first time and not succumb to peer pressure is "silly". Most of the coaches that I know understand this and have rules in place. It may be different for Georgia Tech, good for them, but please don't ASSUME that's the case in all colleges-it isn't.
Good luck to you as well and it would be helpful if you would note when you go back and edit your posts.
TOO LATE, I see you've changed your last post by adding the thing about Nifong-Let me know when you're finished 