Drinking on Official Visits

Boozin' it up during an offical visit? I'm assuming you mean the coach/staff, not your son.
Wow - this is disturbing. Not surprising, but disturbing nonetheless. I would immediately cancel any further plans to attend a school where alcohol was part of the "recruiting" equation. Period.

I drank on some of my offical visits. The players took me to parties and we had fun. No big deal.

The coaches had no knowledge of our activities.

Aside from the right/wrong of the situation, which is major enough in my book , this gives you an insight to the make-up of the current team and how they view rules set by their school and coaching staff. The recruit is not of drinking age and on a recruiting visit! Yikes! Without any knowledge of what is fact, it would make me question the head coach & staff, their discipline, and whether they turn a blind eye to drinking and/or extra curricular activities by team.

Ask yourself: Is this really the baseball program and environment that your & your son are comfortable being a part of?

quote:

Originally posted by redbird5:
I drank on some of my offical visits. The players took me to parties and we had fun. No big deal.

The coaches had no knowledge of our activities.

Same for me..... Coaches usually just sent me off with the team captain after the official tour to get a feel for campus life.... and it was a true feel...

Kids will be kids. The exact circumstance is what I would want to know.

A beer before a football game is 1 thing.

Getting goofy or acting like some notorious Miami football recruit is another.

"Boys will be boys"??? What are you thinking? This is a blatant dis-regard for the law for starters. It would be an immediate "NO" to that school and I would report the encouragement of underage drinking to anyone who cared.

My son was real close to going to a school, but when the players took him out that night, he changed his mind and went to the school he is still at. Bringing in a 17 year old and feeding him booze is wrong, and it is weak too.
The past two years, he has been the guy that shows the recruits around, and he does not drink. They are not offered booze on his watch.

quote:

Originally posted by bbscout:
My son was real close to going to a school, but when the players took him out that night, he changed his mind and went to the school he is still at. Bringing in a 17 year old and feeding him booze is wrong, and it is weak too.
The past two years, he has been the guy that shows the recruits around, and he does not drink. They are not offered booze on his watch.

A little booze here and there won;t do much to you. As long as you aren't getting pissdrunk every weekend you should be fine. It probably isn't the best thing to do on a recruiting visit though.

Thanks for all your input. My son doesn't drink now, but I am not naive enough to think that college students don't drink. But he is not yet a college student. But, you are being evaluated by the team when you hang with them. I have heard lots of stories, some first hand, that the kids are taken to parties and shown a good time. And I've heard that some coaches don't want to hear about the drinking.
I don't think he should drink and if they don't want him, he wasn't meant to be there.

And for all you parents taking your sons on visits, please have a discussion with him before you send him off for the night.

A recruit might feel strong peer pressure to drink while on a recruiting visit. Coaches know what's going on and they should be held responsible for anything that happens on an official visit.
I understand that college kids drink, but there is no place for it on these trips, when they have been entrusted with the health and safety of a High School student!!!

quote:

Originally posted by AKBaseball20:

quote:

Originally posted by bbscout:
My son was real close to going to a school, but when the players took him out that night, he changed his mind and went to the school he is still at. Bringing in a 17 year old and feeding him booze is wrong, and it is weak too.
The past two years, he has been the guy that shows the recruits around, and he does not drink. They are not offered booze on his watch.

A little booze here and there won;t do much to you. As long as you aren't getting pissdrunk every weekend you should be fine. It probably isn't the best thing to do on a recruiting visit though.

how about just a little pot or coke??? Feeding booze to a 17 year old is not only wrong, it is against the law. If a kid needs booze to be recruited as a ballplayer, he is not the type of player I want to sign. If a coach feeds booze to a player, he is not the type of coach that I would recommend to a player or a player's family.

bbscout ...


Our son was not offered alcohol on his official visits and as he, like your son, was one of the players to take recruited players around, he would never have offered alcohol ... or pot or coke either. I appreciated the coaching staff's philosophy on alcohol ... they discouraged it even for the players old enough to drink (legally) and would never encourage or knowingly allow it during official visits. As a matter of fact, there was an unspoken understanding between the players and the coaches that there were no alcoholic beverages when the team and coaches were together, such as a celebration (e.g., regional selection in '02), a team party, annual athletic department auction and fundraiser, etc. It was really nice to see.

Sometimes I can not believe how ignorant I can be, even if I am 1/2 a century old. And also a little concerned as I will be taking my 18 yo son to the airport for his flight to visit a school tonight. I know kids will drink, but was assumming, and you know what happens when you assume, that at least for this weekend alcohol would not be an issue. I will have that conversation about it before I let him go.

On ALL the 5 official visits, (CWS contender DI's), the player host took the kid out on the town. It is standard recruiting practice in all big time programs........ O.K. since we are all friends here: FSU, Florida, Miami, LSU and GA Tech.

if no one drank beer in your HS,
then you have every right to expect the same of your college

also, they probably don't drink beer in pro ball - - - -
not too sure about the pot, cocaine, etc*, tho - I'll have to research that a bit

savannah,
I'll agree you can find about anything you want "out on the town", especially in midtown Atlanta.
Also, these are times the recruit has some choices to make.

choose wisely


ps-thanks for the contender remark

* so far only Canseco has admitted to "*etc"

Savannah (luv that name!),
Regarding the top of your list - they aren't known as the Criminoles for nuthin'...

I'm with bbscout and FutureBack.Mom on this one. Wouldn't the coach know what type of players he is offering visits to? After all, what happens with all the "research" they
have supposedly done with the HS coaches, teachers, counselors, fans etc? And if they
haven't found out what kind of kid he is, why not? Coach should make it crystal clear
to the host player that there will be no illegal activities going on, period.

Hard to believe that on one visit by my son the coach's son was the one offering the
beer.

I think some coaches look the other way because they naturally assume the recruit expects
to "party" and doesn't want to give him an excuse to choose another school.

Wow. My son visited his No. 1 choice and very quickly it dropped to the end of his list. The reason? His hosts took him to parties where "everyone" was drinking... and he wanted no part of it. In fact, it was a huge turn off. I'm not sure what would have happened if the coach selected a different set of players to show my son around. Are we naiive to think that there is no drinking at the school he is attending? Of course not. At this point, my son is not interested in drinking. But. The colleges would be in HUGE trouble if a HIGH SCHOOL kid got busted...or worse...

I can tell you that maybe half of all juniors and seniors in HS do drink occasionally. Maybe it isn't legal, but it isn't like most athletes get hammered because we will get caught. What about people at a Catholic church offering little kids booze or at a nice dinner kids drink wine with their parents. In my opinion, the teenage life most of the time includes partying, drinking and other stuff. I think it is just something that teens do these days and it should be accepted. I wouldn't want to be thrown into a college party though because they chugg it like MD. Things can get crazy there. But if your son doesn't want to drink he shouldn't and doesn't have to. Most recruits need to understand that partying is a big part of college evenings and if they don't feel it's right then don't take part and talk to the coach about it or something. I know that most of you won't agree with anything that I said, but if everyone agreed, then life would suck. I'm just trying to tell the parents the facts and realities of older teenagers life.

AK ...

quote:

I think it is just something that teens do these days and it should be accepted ... I'm just trying to tell the parents the facts and realities of older teenagers life.

Being factual is one thing, but in this case being factual is not RIGHT. It is illegal, period bottom line. I know that drinking alcohol is prevalent with teenagers ... I don't contribute to M A D D because I think it is a good thing but because I think it needs to be discouraged ... and I will always do whatever I can to pass along the message. In our house, it was known up front that drinking was illegal and totally unacceptable. We did NOT allow a little taste of beer or a small glass of wine during a special dinner because we wanted to discourage underage drinking, and promote a sober lifestyle as an adult due to alcoholism on both sides of the family.

I don't know how others on this site feel or believe but just because teens drink doesn't mean we should accept it ... our acceptance does not make it right. There really is a valid reason that the drinking age in this country is 21, even after experimenting with lowering it to 18 for a while ... it has to do with the neurological development of the brain and the ability to take thought processes to their full and logical comclusion (e.g., if I drink too much I could cause a fatal accident ... ). So I am a proponent for not just saying "Don't drink and drive" but "Please don't drink."

Being sober never hurt anybody !!!!

AK, It's nice to have a young guy come on here and give his opinion about a lot of different
subjects and I think you have made a lot of valid points but please step back and re-think
your reasoning on this subject. You've said that HS drinking DOES happen and that it should be
accepted, a little alcohol never hurt anyone(basically). What about a "little" cheating on
tests-it happens. A little un-protected ***-it happens. A "little" breaking the speed limit or
running a few red lights-it happens. A "little" bit of shoplifting-it happens. Yes, things happen all the time but that doesn't mean we should give our stamp of approval on them just
for that reason alone. Underage drinking is illegal-period and should never be accepted.

You may have a different take on the subject once you have teenagers of your own and are
sitting home on a Friday or Saturday night waiting on pins and needles for your son or daughter
to walk through the front door. Heck, it's bad enough when your kids don't drink and you hope
they aren't injured by another teenager who thought it was OK because over 50% of their peers
drink.

Again, please take this in the vein it was meant-try to look at both sides .

I always felt there was more than one side to the official visit. One part of the official visit is the squeaky clean part. That is where the coaching staff is recruiting the player and the family. The coaches are quick to point out how the players are subject to rules and regulations and how they are expected to be upstanding young men and represent the university at all times. The coaches are quick to tell you how proud they are of their academic record and how improper conduct by the players will not be tolerated. On the other side of the official visit, the player is allowed to experience college life usually guided by a current player on the team. Here your son usually socializes with the other players and the college population in general. Like it or not the college scene is full of parties and drinking. I don’t know if my son was offered booze during his official visit but I would be surprised if he wasn’t. If not by another ballplayer then possibly by some party goers that was in attendance at some of the parties they attended. If you expect to keep your son from being offered alcohol while in college, then you are in for a huge challenge. But....being offered something is much different than accepting something. If your son is going to say NO he needs to know how to say it.
Let’s not stick our head in the sand. On your next visit to the campus, drop by the closest convenience store and check out their inventory. Be sure to notice the boxes and boxes of beer piled in the isles of the store. Look in the walk-in coolers. Somebody around campus is consuming large quantities of alcohol.
Your son is about to be offered more than the opportunity to memorize a chapter or two of English 101. He is about to become educated in the ways of the world. Is this bad? Of course not. This is his chance to prove to himself that he can survive the real world outside the safe harbor we parents have provided. He is venturing into manhood. Your son is about to make a lot of decisions on his own. Be confident in your son and your parenting skills. Yes, your son is about to be tested. To my knowledge my son didn’t drink in college... But if he did or if he didn’t...that was a choice he made as a man, not one I made for him as his father. In the next few years your son will learn one of two things. He will either learn HOW to drink ... or....he will learn how NOT to drink.
Fungo

Did I really read what I thought I just read?

By any chance are some of you posters the same people that will call for a lynching when a first round draft pick gets caught drunk and fighting in spring training?

I know the Catholic church has had it's share of issues lately, but I don't quite see the connection between recruits drinking on an official visit and communion wine.

And alcohol being a 'test' for recruits?I can see it now:
Coach: "Boys, take this here recruit out on the town tonght. Feel free to get plastered, but let me know if the youngen' is a boozer. We don't want that kind on our team. (Or do we?)"

I'll be the first to agree kids drink. That does not make it right. I also agree kids drink on official visits. But to blame it on the coaches or the Catholics is just nuts......

It's early in the morning. Maybe I better have another cup of coffee and re-read the posts.

I realize I wasn't to clear in my post (long day). What I meant was that the player host is going to take your recruit out every night (2 nights) where beer is available. The player host will not drink or offer your son/player anything, however, it will be present and may be offered by other students. Understand that your son is still being evaluated by the coach! Now if he comes back from his visit and tells you he did indeed drink, don't freakout. It doesn't mean the coach is going to pull the scholarship. But, understand that they want to know how your player is going to handle all this new freedom. You see these coaches have got burned so many times by selecting a kid with great talent, only to have him in screw-up or end up in handcuffs. The key is to tell your son when he go's out with the player/host not to drink, not to be loud, just be friendly and end the night early. Imagine if the player host comes back to the coach the next day and tells him your player is an idiot. All the work you have done all these years is compromised because of a single foolish night. Again, if you have already "partied" on your official visit, it is not the end of the world. As long as you didn't act like an idiot or do foolish things you'll probably be O.K. The rule of thumb is "alcohol is everywhere in college. (good beer rep.s are give a certain college as a reward for good performance) It is time to grow up now and start making correct choices. Your probably getting paid to play now -(scholarship), so this is the payoff for all that hard work.

good post fungo

IMO, the reality of how the situation is handled has already been determined by how you raised your son his last 18 yrs.

during college selection (official & unofficial visits) our goal was to get a realistic impression of campus life, the team, the student body, and the community - - without a real feel, how could a fit be judged??

for the sanitized view we could have saved time & just read thru the college catalog and looked at pictures


itsagreatgame - when you exagerate extreme, your point is lost - - so, how's this?

"boys, give me your impression of this recruit tomorrow, will he fit, is he disciplined?



futurebackmom - the age was raised in the mid 80's because the feds said so (against the wishes of the states involved and under threat of withholding federal $$), the studies came later, and actually, some respected studies since have suggested the opposite - way more binge drinking, more abuse, and no supervision , etc -

instead of a laid back evening listening to music or watching a game and having a few beers at a bar (w/bartenders & bouncers), those who choose to drink do so at an unsupervised house party off campus with 25 kegs & who knows what else


hmmm, my daughter starts Ohio U next week - said she chose for her major and had no idea it would be ranked the #2 party school.
the part above about how you raised them just may not apply to daughters



.

I agree with Fungo 100%. Drinking is like any other behavior that you would prefer your college student not partake in. I've had discussions with my son during his teenage years about drinking, drugs, ***, smoking, etc. I was also told a story of a kid drinking last year where son is now going to school. I made sure and relayed that, including the consequences, on to him as well. However, they are at an age when they go off to school where they will be faced with many choices. It's the beginning of their adult lives. Some of those choices can have life altering consequences and I think I've raised my kids to make the best choices. If one of them messes up, I'll still love them and hope that they've learned from that mistake. My son's at an age now where it's up to him - with occasional reminders from mom!

Thanks for all your thoughts on this...

Fungo - I agree with you
There is drinking in HS and he has learned to say no. Now he has to learn how to say no on a visit.

I think most coaches would not be suprised to find out that the recruit was taken to a party and offered drinks. I hope the team won't turn in their report as "socially unacceptable" when he chooses not to. And then maybe he wasn't meant to go to that school.

bee> ...
Guess we are reading different studies ... The info I have read about the drinking age and why it was changed back ... for the better, I believe ... apparently is not the same as what you have read. As far as the binge drinking is concerned ... I believe in the theory of the self-fulfilling prophecy and if we keep telling young people that this happens, that this is a part of life they will be challenged with, that they need to learn to handle, and perhaps even expected to accept, then they will do just that, and then take the next step and participate instead of obvserve. I think there are way too many "news" stories that are intended to discourage such things, intended to inform the public about the extent of such things, which only goes to show the young people that this is common ... and far too many think that common = acceptable and/or expected.

To anyone who cares to read ...
Over the past couple of years, there have been several threads started where "we" have discussed underage drinking. A few of us have very conservative attitudes about it, have shared our family's and our personal feelings on the subject, and been consistent in our opinions and feelings in every discussion ... even tho we may feel like we are swimming against the tide. Somehow we who are conservative about this subject ... or in my case adament about it ... always seem to be told that this happpens, we just need to accept it, hope our sons deal with it the way we raised them yada yada yada. Well, I know it happens and I can't change that but I am still a believer that if I am not a part of the solution, I am a part of the problem. I will continue to speak against it, hoping that more people will become vocal about it instead of acquiesing and maybe just maybe someday the tide will turn and it will no longer be considered something that "kids" do as tho it is a natural stage in their development. Seeing a young man I watched grow up lying in a coffin before his 20th birthday only added to the strength of my convictions.

But all personal opinions aside on the reality of underage drinking, etc. I understood this thread to be about our opinions regarding drinking on official visits ... whether offered by a player or somebody else at a party ... and the bottom line is that it is ILLEGAL in every state, whether it happens on campus or not, and I would strongly discourage my son from attending a school where this happened on his official visit. I really don't care that it is a part of campus life ... it is not something that has to be introduced to him on an official visit and I would expect more of the coaches in their selection of players who are responsible for the visiting recruit. Whether I know he will be exposed to it in college or not, he is NOT there for the purpose of being exposed to all things college ... he is there to find out about the college's academics, the baseball team and program, etc., and the official visit does not need to be an introduction into EVERY aspect of college life. There are a lot of things that regularly and routinely happen at college which go against everything we taught our son ... engaging in pre-marital ***, cheating on tests, smoking marijuana ... but I do not feel that these are things he needs to experience on an official visit, and being exposed to alcohol falls right in there as far as I am concerned.

I am not naive enough to think that our son was not exposed to alcohol when he was at school ... one roommate in his apt the first year was old enough to drink legally and there was always booze in the apartment. I know my son consumed alcohol several times ... and even had the headaches to prove it. But that doesn't mean he needed to experience that or be exposed to that during his official visits.

Jump, thump ... that is me getting off my soapbox before I get accused again of being "preachy and condescending" because of my personal beliefs ...

futurebackMom, I do respect your view - -

I'll stay a bit off topic - - you said, "they changed it back to 21" -

until 1984 when the federal goverment held highway funds hostage, states were responsible for setting their own age - and many had it lower than 21 - there was just no way to study or come to a valid conclusion until after a change.

afterward, it seemed to have an affect on highway fatalities, but they also lowered the speed limit, made cars safer, made seatbelts mandantory, and instituted alcohol education programs during that time

and now the proponents of a "State's right" to lower it again are armed with 20 yrs of data showing it had the opposite effect intended


peace

ps: my brother-in-law is a Brewmaster, overseeing operations at 3 micro-breweries, so my view is somewhat tempered by the fact that - - -
"he goes to work everyday and drinks beer as his job" (my over-simplified description)

To simplify the debate, I'll just say that illegal stuff should not be part of an official visit to a college. Period.

i feel the need to put in my two cents here

first of all, your son is going to college, at college there will be parties, at these parties your son will drink whether he plays baseball or not

second, you want to make sure your son goes to a college he likes, why is it so bad for him to go to a party and truely experience the college so he finds out if he likes it or not?

yankeeclipper

can you honestly tell me you never drank before you were 21, or sped while driving, or did anything illegal in your entire life?

I'm a soph in HS and have never drank.

back on topic -
to simplify further - -

if your son is offered a beer -
"the sky isn't falling" & he's not in a moral "mud pit"


y'all can reach any conclusion ya want with BAD LOGIC

I've been "testing" the speed limit & rolling thru stop signs for 35 yrs (illegal), it didn't lead to cheating (my college transcripts can attest to that), I didn't go on to cocaine, robbery, or assault

We taught (attempted?) the kids the hazarards of alcohol abuse, how to act responsibly around the opposite s-e-x, that a 396/375 hp Camaro can be dangerous (), and to refrain from swimming at night -

I'm pretty sure the car stuff took OK, as neither drives anything that will go fast UPHILL

Completely on-topic, Yankeeclipper is spot on: drinking should not be a part of an official visit, whatever the bonding situation, as it's illegal.

If the question is underage drinking, it is also illegal. However, I believe we're pretty much the only country with a drinking age of 21, and the rest of the planet isn't in a basket wondering where they're going with a drinking age of 18.

Our children will be exposed to pretty much everything at college....that's part of the wonderous experience that is college: choices, mistakes, questioning, and learning in a semi-protected atmosphere.

I, too, have seen friends of my children in their coffins and in comas as a result of substance abuse. I've also seen friends of my children go completely mad-dog after having been raised with an iron hand when they were finally let out on their own.

All we can do is try to instill judgement in the little darlings. As my old Dad used to say: "Toughest job in the world and there's no training".

quote:

Originally posted by yankeeclipper:
To simplify the debate, I'll just say that illegal stuff should not be part of an official visit to a college. Period.

Right on young man. Good post and good thinking.

FutureBack.Mom---I agree with you very much.

again, I respect the opinions expressed

To be consistent, it would then be in your best interest to include in your preliminary communications with schools your intent to decline any offers, visits, or opportunities from any school where any contact with alcohol is possible - it would prevent your wasted time & open opportunities for others



bbscout, just wondering whether you guys had 2004 #1, Matt Bush on your draft board, & where?

My post was just simplifying the fact. But that isn't what I believe in. I have drank before but it isn't something I do alot and I probably won't do it for a while. Nice to read the feedback from everyone and I agree with you all.

quote:

Originally posted by Bee>:
again, I respect the opinions expressed

To be consistent, it would then be in your best interest to include in your preliminary communications with schools your intent to decline any offers, visits, or opportunities from any school where any contact with alcohol is possible - it would prevent your wasted time & open opportunities for others



bbscout, just wondering whether you guys had 2004 #1, Matt Bush on your draft board, & where?

way, way, down the list. And Bee, I don't make the picks on draft day either.

quote:

Originally posted by Bee>:
again, I respect the opinions expressed

To be consistent, it would then be in your best interest to include in your preliminary communications with schools your intent to decline any offers, visits, or opportunities from any school where any contact with alcohol is possible - it would prevent your wasted time & open opportunities for others



bbscout, just wondering whether you guys had 2004 #1, Matt Bush on your draft board, & where?

To be consistant, the topic is about drinking on official visits. It is against the law, but I guess that does not matter to some people. That is until a kid gets hurt or in trouble, or worse.

Drinking impairs judgement. My mother was killed by a drunk driver

FBM, I don't think that anyone here thinks drinking is ok for their teenagers or college students. Just because someone knows it happens, doesn't mean they want to promote or encourage it in anyway.

Alcohol has touched my family in tragic ways as well - my son and I have had conversations about alcohol just like we have about many other subjects. He knows my feelings very well.

njbb,

The human element in these threads is unbelievable at times. My deepest condolences.

FBM - agree with you and your well-written thoughts.

Bee - you are the ultimate devil's advocate I have decided. Are you a lawyer by any chance? If not, take this as a new career suggestion for you

Difficult topic, and no way we will end up with a concensus. But, it is more than important enough to discuss and debate. This post is hopefully food for thought for the "don't do it because it is "illegal" crowd." Admittedly, it is outside the "booze on recruiting trip" topic, but, hopefully addresses our thinking in general on this particular topic; what is the best approach for our sons?

I think it was "Futureback" who said that nothing good comes out of drinking and, basically, I agree. (However some pretty irrefutable studies demonstrate that regular alcohol consumption IN SMALL AMOUNTS (e.g. approx. 2 drinks per day) is actually quite healthy, emprically, for our species.) So how do we help our kids navigate between the societal pressures, from both sides, and a healthy life style?

Look at history. We had a situation, once upon a time, where the vast majority of Americans did not drink. It was a relatively simple matter to pass an amendment outlawing all consumption of alcohol in this country. What happened? Because it was "illegal" but not "unfashionable" drinking was introduced to, and became part of the lifestyle of, untold numbers of people who would not have bothered before. In other words, it became cool, quite possibly because it was illegal. By the time prohibition ended we had entirely new segments of society drinking alcohol.

The same might be said about drugs. During the 60's, 70's, 80's some of you parents out there may have indulged for awhile because, although it was illegal, it was fashionable. The imprimatur of illegality meant nothing to you because you knew that, basically, it was a stupid legal principle. You had experienced a thousand + kids go through all kinds of usage without problems, notwithstanding the dire consequences predicted by our collective parental units who, for the most part, had absolutely no experience in this arena. So what is the big deal, particularly when you were only a party user? Our parents were clueless, why should we listen to them? That is how many, if not most, of us felt. Given this, it is hard to ignore the hypocrisy of some of the parent generated stuff going on today. Why should our kids feel any differently than we felt?

I realize that many a present parent has taken an "anti-drug or alcohol" position because of their own experiences which were, all told, less than positive. But, we will never, ever, succeed in keeping our children, their kids, and so on, from these potential dangers by making the activity illegal. How many times are we allowed to ignore history before we ourselves are the biggest problem? In other words, what really upsets me is adding on to the potential problems drug or alcohol use could cause in small numbers of people, the incredible legal problems drug or alcohol use can now cause for all kids who happen to get caught, even if it is the first and only time they have ever gone down this road.

For example, I believe Bee is entirely correct historically. At one time all the states had different drinking age laws, some even differentiated between 3.2 beer and other kinds (levels) of alcohol. Then, as now, the best a parent could do was to explain, coach, cajole, a son or daughter about the consequences of what was legally available to them. They waited on pins and needles, just as we do today. One thing that a parent didn't have to worry about was the cost, trauma, loss of focus, ambition and hope, a son or daughter might now face when their fashionable, but recently illegal activity puts them in jail. However, the federal government (arguably illegally) decided to flex its financial muscles (as it did with the 55 mph speed limit) to tell every state what was best for them, or else.

The most important thing is to realize that this age limit stuff is entirely subjective. The age limit in New York when I grew up was 18. Here in Fla., back then, it was 21. I could have been arrested during our annual baseball trips to Fla. for something that was completely legal in my home state. More importantly, everybody on the team was used to dealing with the decision to drink or not to drink, and for the most part we just said no when there was a game the next day. I can say in no uncertain terms that the 18 year old citizens of New York did not suffer by comparison to other states because we had an 18 yr. old drinking age, while their drinking age was 21.

Now, as a parent, we need to worry not only about the serious consquences of drinking, (which are statistically tiny, but nevertheless important) but also the onerous legal consequences. I don't know how any parent of a teenager can be in favor of that. These often ridiculous laws are not going to stop our kids from doing what is fashionable. If we have any hope in this regard, it is to look at other cultures and realize that it doesn't have to be this way. It may take time and perhaps several generations of counseling. But, I believe this goal we all want is very important, and will never happen when some artificial governmental entity is standing over our shoulders with a threat.

For example, I have seen 12 year-old German boys drinking shoupers of beer after dancing for the patrons of a local establishment. It was no big deal. Their fathers' might work on the automobile factory floors where beer is also available at will. It is no big deal. Beer is sold in vending machines virtually everywhere (movie theaters, McDonald's etc), it is no big deal. Drinking alcohol is no big deal, getting drunk,... that is another story. I could go on to many other countries and cultures, but I am sure many of you have seen the same thing. We (the USA) may have a flaw in this matter which is a cultural imperative, not a legal issue. The bottom line, with education, cultural refocus etc., we should be able to handle this, just as other countries and societies have.

I brought my kids up in the American fashion. No booze until legal age, no small sips or celebratory drinks, and so on. I did not wish to give them the idea that, by my acquiescence to small amounts of alcohol, drinking was OK. In retrospect, it simply doesn't work. The topic needs to be demystified and most definitely decriminalized. My oldest child was a female athlete. For the prom they had organized a pre-party where the parents were invited to take pictures etc. It was a nice affair. The girls were beautiful, the boys were handsome, and they all, particularly the boys, seemed too young to even consider drinking etc. As we were leaving one of the Mom's shouted out: "OK, who are the designated drivers for tonight?" Several kids raised their hands, and she checked them out as they left. I was initially appalled at her suggestion that there would be any need for a designated driver. But, as I drove home, I was quite thankful for her perceptions, and many of those pins and needles I might otherwise have felt were put to rest. She was a lot smarter than I was.

As for baseball, you couldn't go into a pro locker room immediately after a game in the 60's, early 70's (and probably long before that) that wasn't thick with cigarette smoke, and populated by hundreds of empty beer bottles . Take a look now. Times have changed. Change is possible, but effective change comes from interest (team or self) not some government edict. Let us try to have the strength on issues like this to work for what will ultimately succeed, not what is expedient.

"consquences of drinking are stitistically tiny"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm a social worker, Ive seen the consquences of drinking it's domestic violence,aids and pregnancy, you'd be shocked at the number of times I've heard "I was at a party and got drunk"
Sorry if I'm off topic

IMO it's all about idealism and reality.

In a perfect college world... people don't
drink, cheat, steal, speed, practice unsafe ***, party with a vegence,...

In a real college world many people (not all)choose to do all these things...and they are a part of what college is now. I may not agree with it, in fact may see real harm or risk in it, but it is the reality.

The key IMO is to have raised a young man who understands choices and consequences.

To some extent it is all Moot...If a recruit goes to a party he has a choice... on a recruiting trip can decide for himself what he chooses to do and what he does not. No matter where he is taken, shown or offered. No one is going to make my son do anything. It is his choice and he needs to be raised with personal boundaries.

I figure watching what the other players do and how they handle themselves in such situations tells me a great deal about the priorities and senisibilities of the program. Are these people I want to be around for the next 4 years?

Just my 2 cents worth - I could feel like a lousy mother after reading some of these posts but I don't feel like I've done a bad job raising my sons. I drank at parties while in HS, 30 yrs. ago and have known and allowed my sons to do the same. I guess I'm a realist. I even let kids drink at our house with them knowing they had to spend the night. Alot of the parents of my kids friends felt the same way we do, we'd rather know they're in a safe environment than out driving drunk. I've gotten phone calls in the middle of the night asking me to come and get them and always did. I always told them to call instead of getting behind the wheel and they did listen to me.
Am I going to be naieve and think there won't be any booze in the refrig at school? No. He's living with kids that are 21 and they do drink. Thankfully, I had an open dialogue with my sons as they were growing up about the dangers of drinking, drugs and ***. Sure they experimented. I like that they feel comfortable enough to tell me what went on at a party. It can lead to some very good discussions about the choices they make and how it can affect them in the future. We also were wise enough to never ever leave them home alone for a weekend. We knew whenever somebody's parents were away for the weekend that's where the party would be. I wasn't that naieve. Does my 23 yr. old buy my 20 yr old beer? Yeah he does. Do his friends older siblings do the same thing? Yes they do. I'd rather not bury my head in the sand and think, not my kid. They have friends that choose not to drink and they consider that ok, too. My 23 yr old hardly ever drinks now that he can, hasn't gotten anyone pregnant and doesn't do any drugs so I think we did ok. My 20 yr old will sometimes tell me that so-in-so is probably going to be an alchoholic so they know what's up.
As to the drinking on an official visit, yeah he did drink on all of them at the campus parties. And yes, the coaches knew. Luckily the school he chose does not have parties except Thur. nights so he doesn't have the pressure that goes on at some of the schools. Do I wish he didn't drink? He's 20 so of course I wish he didn't but I also am enough of a realist to know that he does and hope we've done enough talking to at least make him somewhat smart enough to know how to handle it. I don't know if how I raised them is the "right" way but I've done the best I can do and hope they've taken the lessons learned with them for the future. So far they haven't disappointed me or their dad.

Whether you want to admit it or not, its the way of life at college. It all depends on how you raised your son and the example you gave him at home.

You are aware pabbmom that you could be arrested for allowing under age drinking and be held liable for the actions of any one drinking at your home.

PABBMOM

Having parties at your house and letting the kids drink? You are only asking for trouble. Just because they will spend the night(or you think they will) does not get you off the hook. It is illegal. That is the black and white of it. Suppose one falls and gets hurt or has a fight and hurts somebody or drinks so much that he requires medical attention or leaves and drives.

Originally posted by njbb:
"consquences of drinking are statistically tiny"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm a social worker, Ive seen the consquences of drinking, domestic violence,aids and pregnancy, you'd be shocked at the number of times I've heard "I was at a party and got drunk"
Sorry if I'm off topic

There is no doubt that if I was offered a beer that I would take ONE. I wouldn't get drunk. I wouldn't go to the party and try to pick up a girl. I would want a focused mind when I am on a visit.

People sometimes trivialize the use of alcohol. I teach Health education in High school. When teaching the alcohol unit the attitude of the kids sometimes is one of yea everybody drinks and gets drunk and some see it as humorous. I do not let that go far. Every year i ask them how many know of somebody a friend etc who was taken to the emergency ward of a hospital for alcohol poisoning. Over half raise their hand. Sobering thought.

Again it comes down to one thing: it's illegal. Look at prisons in our country.
Obviosuly murder and robbery 'Happen' but does it make it right and legal? NO. That's an extreme example but I hope you get my point. This site helps promote being the best baseball player you can become, and the last time I checked, alcohol can't help you hit a curveball.

PAbbMom, I agree that we never know for sure if we've raised our children the "right" way, but
I think you've also had a little luck on your side-jmo.

I do find it curious that your children HEEDED your advice when you told them to call you when they were under the influence of alcohol, but DIDN'T listen to you when they were sober and you told them of the problems of underage drinking.

From what I've been reading on a lot of posts here, maybe I'm in the minority when it comes
to raising kids. YES, YES, YES, We all know drinking, drugs, *** etc. goes on every day across the country-is this the rationale to excuse it? Kids do it, just accept it? Just give
up because you're not going to stop it? A little drinking never hurt anyone? As long as they
call home and tell us they're drunk it's OK?

I'm not here to tell everyone how to raise their children-heaven knows my wife and I have made our share of mistakes and are by no means perfect. I just think we are sending the
wrong message when we just give in because we can't lick it. I know my kids have felt the pressure from schoolmates to drink and probably have as well, but they also know that they
won't get the stamp of approval from Mom and Dad. After all, doesn't someone have to be
the adult?

It's Sunday and I'm through with my sermon-sorry.

quote:

, and the last time I checked, alcohol can't help you hit a curveball.

What has always amazed me is how some parents will spend hundreds of dollars on private instruction, showcases, travel ball, weight training, etc. and then look the other way when it comes to their son's drinking. Drinking isn't going to help baseball performance, it isn't going to help with academics ... and it certainly can lead to heartbreaking incidents.

PA, I applaud your honesty in making your post. To read the thread, one might assume we were all raising little angels with rules and regulations followed down the line. Hmmmm....sounds like a lot of conversations with parents I've had.

Like the ones with parents of a teammate of my son's in hs, who was to his parents, a stellar student, universally loved, unfailingly polite, completely law-abiding, and set to be drafted. And to many of the adults, he was. (see Eddie Haskell) And when he was drag-racing his new Mercedes with three teammates in the car, all under the influence of more than one illegal substance, lost control and put himself through a wall before the car arrived (he wasn't wearing his seatbelt), he remained the perfect son because he was theirs. Most fortunately, he survived the coma with relatively few problems.

It would seem you have a very open and close relationship with your son, and that is a rare gift that you have fashioned. Don't let anyone put you off the highly personal decisions you have made in raising your children.

I've been cursed with a good memory and am well aware of what I was doing at the ages of 18 and 20, my kids' current ages. Of course, they are much too young and inexperienced for some of those things .

pa mom.

Just announced yesterday and today in Illinois....

A mother and her son were arrested for serving liquor at a party at their house where a 16 year old got drunk...left the party; and, drowned when he decided to go for a swim in a pond nearby. Apparently the mother served anyone and everyone. She didn't even know many of the "party" attendees! Wonderful, mom.

I try to do my best as a parent but I can't control my sons and others in their/other environment. I know one mom who smokes joints with her sons and in front of my sons. When I called to complain, she was "indignant" that I would call.

I think any minor should be required to serve 30 days in jail for the first offense of underage drinking; 60 for the second and so on.

They know exactly what they are doing. They know exactly the "buzz" they want. They get "emboldened" by the booze.

Remember when I was a teenager who tried beer once and didn't like it. Used to go to the quarries near Lemont (those of you from CHicagoland would know what I'm talking about)with a 6-pack...didn't have 12 packs or 24 packs at that time. Most of the guys got wasted and wound up laying around under some trees and in the bushes not knowing exactly where they were....and I wound up with their girlfriends for the night.

by clevedad,
bee "Are you a lawyer by any chance?"
OUCH! & double OUCH!
no, I actually work for a living, dirty hands etc



in reading thru alot of resonable responses on both sides, one thing seems to ring true

the "CULTURAL INFLUENCE"

if the parent was raised in a family or community with 'HEALTHY VIEW" of alcohol -
a tolerant additude is evident

if the parent was raised in a family or community where alcohol was a problem or viewed as "THE KEYS TO THE EVIL EMPIRE" - a very intolerant view is evident



and, before you're too quick to comdem Pabbmom, the additudes & actions in their peer group may well have prevented tradgedies - - in fact the info she related only support that conclusion



yes Will, something IS wrong there - in my 35 yrs since hs, including being active with kids while mine were school age (coaching, chaperoning, etc), and also counting my wife's 12 yrs in the medical field I/we don't know anyone who was treated at the ER for alcohol poisoning

tho during the '70's when Ohio was 18 yrs (for 3.2), we'd often see kids from Pitt in Y'town and Kent getting pretty crazy with their newfound freedom -


John, that's truly sad regarding the drowning tragedy - thoughts & prayers to the family



also Will, is it taught in health class/alcohol unit that during night swimming under the infulence, the inner ear/sense of balance can be screwed up to the point the swimmer will swim franticly to the bottom thinking it's the surface?? the cause of most night swimming tragedies!

Spot on, Bee --- most of our attitudes come from personal experience, and many times people presume those attitudes to be the same as Universal Truth.

In England, all new mothers are offered as much Guiness as they want because of the iron content and the effect alchohol has in dialating the blood vessels --- it helps breastfeeding. Patients in hospital are given wine with dinner, particularly those with mobility problems, for the same reason -- dialating the blood vessels helps blood flow and therefore healing. When my son had colic, I was "prescribed" brandy to help soothe him.

Alchohol doesn't mean excess. Excess means excess.

For starters, I nominate this thread for the Golden Threads forum. Bee, just to be clear, my comment was meant as a compliment to your argumentitive skills.

The following is somewhat stream of conscious so please forgive in advance.

After reading the many outstanding posts on this subject, I have found myself waffling on the issue somewhat. Not necessarily to the narrower issue of drinking on an official visit but to the broader issue of teenage drinking itself.

It seems you need the wisdom of Solomon to be a parent these days. These are some of the questions I have: When something is strictly forbidden does it make it even more alluring to the child? If we are to forbid our children, should we also not drink ourselves?

I have tried to rationalize these feeling by saying that I am a responsible drinker for the most part. I can go weeks without drinking and not miss it one bit. At the same time, I love to drink and enjoy the effects of alcohol. I also have a long memory as Orlando suggests and there is a certain amount of guilt I carry with me.

The real issue we all have is the fear of something harmful happening to our children while at the same time wanting them to have normal and fun social lives at college. Thus, it seems to me that drinking will ALWAYS be part of the college experience and we should promote ideas that mitigate any possible harm.

On the record, I tell my kids not to drink until they reach legal age. Off the record, I forbid drinking and driving or getting into the car with a drunk. I have told my son 1000 times I will gladly pay for a cab or motel room no matter what the expense and regardless of whether you have to leave your car behind or not.

With respect to the official visit - I think the recruit has to be told forcefully up front by the team leader and/or coach whether they may be exposed to some drinking while they visit but by no means are they expected in any way to participate. This way, all conflicts and ambiguities are resolved for the player.

For instance, if the recruit is being taken to a football game, I can guarantee they will be exposed to drinking. The purpose of the trip is about the young man only and baseball. It is in no way a test to the young man's manhood whether he turns down a drink. He needs to know upfront that how he acts in these social settings of the visit (drinking wise) does not impact the view of him as a player or teammate.

Sorry for rambling but....

Here is a tip for parents when they travel. We used to leave my older son home alone when we traveled. On one trip many years ago, he hosted a party where both sides of the street for hundreds and hundreds of feet were occupied with vehicles of teenagers having a party at our home. When we got home, the neighbor came rushing up and said...you should have seen the party at your house - there must have been 200 kids there!!!! I was enraged and horrified at the same. I said why didn't you call the cops! After I settled down, I realized it wasn't my neighbor's responsibility but mine.

Ever since, when we were both out of town, I called the police station within ear-shot of my son. I asked them if they would kindly watch my house for any signs of a party. You know what? The police where happy that I called. Their only question was whether he was allowed to have any cars over. I said no more than one car at a time and only to pick him up or drop him off. They said fine, watched my house like a hawk, and I never had a problem again.

Official visits--never heard of one--my son's or others'-where alcohol was not available.

Parents who host parties--the rest of us hate you. How come you never call the parents of the kids who attend your parties to make sure that it is ok with US if they drink at your house?

Parties at our house--Thanks to a very nosy nextdoor neighbor, never an issue--at least not with the first one....

The forbidden fruit--I was told by a very reliable source that the reason for drinking in HS had a lot to do with the fact that it was illegal and against house rules and that was what made it fun. Once it is easily available at college, it wasn't as fun and, as a result, happened far less often.

My son/daughter doesn't drink-- I hope all of you are correct. We know a lot of parents who said the same of their kids, but in every single case we knew differently. The difficult question is whether or not to say anything about it.

quote:

if the parent was raised in a family or community with 'HEALTHY VIEW" of alcohol -
a tolerant additude is evident

And whose definition do you choose to use then you define "healthy view"? well, I thnk it seems obvious that it is your personal definition based on the following "leap":

quote:

if the parent was raised in a family or community where alcohol was a problem or viewed as "THE KEYS TO THE EVIL EMPIRE" - a very intolerant view is evident

It would seem from some of your comments that those of us who feel that consuming alcohol should be discouraged .. one doesn't have to recover from alcoholism if the path is never taken ... have an "unhealthy view" and therefore very intolerant view. Well, that is quite a leap from estblishing rules in our own homes that say illegal activities will not be tolerated, just as it is a big leap to imply that those of us who maintained a relatively authoritative household were ruling with an iron fist. Both my husband and I consume alcohol ... tho my consumption has diminished significantly as my age has advanced and my values have changed. We don't really care what other people do legally when it comes to alcohol, but I can say that there would have been hell to pay had my son ever been in a home where the parents provided alcohol to underage drinkers. For some of us, it isn't a matter of any "cultural difference influence" but a matter of our personal values which do not make compromises because of what the rest of the "world" is doing. I make no apologies for that or for my strong belief about the matter.

But then, this goes back to my earlier comment about swimming against the tide ... it gets a little tiring but I can use the exercise.

I would like to second the motion that this thread be added to the "Golden Thread" forum. It has been most thought-provoking.

Seems to me that there is a chasm between idealism vs. realism and how each of us chooses to handle the two entities. It appears most of us have the same "ideal" here.....under-aged drinking is something we don't want our kids to participate in...PERIOD. However, that "ideal" wasn't very "realistic" in MY college experience....and I don't expect it is very realistic in my son and daughter's college experiences either. It is how we choose to bridge this gap between the idealistic and realistic expectations that seems to be the issue. Do we insist that our kids don't drink at college, and leave it at that? Would that have worked when YOU were a college student? Or do we understand that drinking is a part of most college experiences and prepare our kids to deal with it the best they can? The best I can do is to teach them what is expected and if they decide to ignore it....I've talked to them re: drinking responsibly (something that was never done in my household growing up...because WE JUST DIDN'T DRINK AT ALL) ....and if they don't learn how to partake responsibly they've been taught the possible reprocussions (physical, legal,and moral), ad nauseum (no pun intended ). There comes a point where you can preach thru words and actions only so long...our kids have to decide if they want to adopt our lessons, ignore them, or incorporate SOME of our beliefs with SOME of theirs. That is part of growing up...and a BIG part of a college education IMO. I've seen enough bizarre choices coming from IMO great families that I sometimes think it might just be a c*r*a*p shoot as to whether our kids get thru unscathed...but we want to give our kids the best odds at it. Personally, I don't know what MORE I can do, and my kids can never claim to not know what MY viewpoint on under-aged drinking is...it is now up to my kids to make their choices. I might HATE some of those choices and I'll surely let them know it, but I'm going to love them no matter what.

Re: official visits and alcohol. I can say that I know my son's college team mates would NEVER think negatively upon anyone who decides to not drink...recruit or not. In our experiences, I don't think whether a recruit decides to have a drink or not is part of the "recruiting decision making" on the coach's part either. Personally, I don't even know if the team has any voice at all in WHO the coach ultimately decides to bring onto the team...unless there was some VERY BIZARRE behavior exhibited by the recruit that the team feels is in the best interest for the coach to be aware of. Personally, if my son went on a recruiting visit where everyone got falling-down drunk....I would thank my lucky stars that he got to see it on the official visit...and NOT when he showed up in the fall after a "less than honest" recruiting trip where the team was obviously on their best behavior. I'd rather he made his decision based on an honest assessment of team camraderie and behavior both on and off the field so he could determine if THAT is the environment he wants to deal with for the next 4 years of his life.

Everyone is expressing opinions here, FutureBackMom. By definition, that is their view.

As I was the one who used the 'iron fist' reference, may I clarify that that was also my experience, as stated. It was your "big leap" FBM, to apply it to "those of us" and personalize it.

And there are cultural differences in the world (no quotation marks needed --- there is a world and I'm not using the word ironically), many of which have both been imported into the US and have influenced both American culture and law. Cultural differences are not an attack on anyone's values or opinions.

This is a conservative country. Why do people with conservative views regard themselves as swimming against the tide? "Conservative rebel" seems like quite an oxymoron .

As luvbb said, this thread has been most thought-provoking. When I scout kids, the first thing that happens is I try and decide if the young man is a prospect or not. If I feel he is a prospect, I will then check out his background to the best of my ability. Part of that check is to see if anything pops up in the way of drugs, alcohol or off field problems.

There was one reason only that I ran an Area Code Team for many years.......I wanted to be right next to the kids for a week or so, because from experience, red flags would pop up if things were not just right. In scouting, we make mistakes on talent all the time, but in the 11 years that I had an Area Code Team, I never made a mistake on a players make up. Having the team saved me a few times, because there were some players that I would have drafted if I had not known some things that I found out by being around them so much. I had one player (4th round pick) who died from alcohol poisoning at age 26. All the signs were there at 17.

Of all the players that I have signed over the years, the one that I knew would get to be as good as he possibly could be was Chris Singleton. He did not drink, smoke, swear or do anything wrong. He just worked hard and it turned out that he got to be as good as he could be. He put up with teamates who ragged him for never drinking and also for being religious. He ended up being nosed out by Carlos Beltran for the Rookie of the Year award and while he was doing that, he also went back to college and completed his degree.

Only one time have I signed a guy who had red flags, and the sad part was that we released him in "AA" when he had an ERA of 1.92. He was a much better prospect than Singleton, but the bottle was more important to him and he never sniffed the big leagues.

Orlando ...

Your points are well taken, but if I may clarify a couple of things:

>>I mis-typed/mis-spoke when I used the term 'cultural difference' ... meant 'cultural influence'; I do not see how the statements Bee> used regarding tolerance and intolerance have anything to do with cultural influence ... personal experiences, perhaps. But I still think it is quite a leap to use the word 'intolerant' under these circumstances

>>My use of world in quotes has to do with being "in this world but not of this world"

>>Why do people with conservatie views regard themselves as swimming againt the tide? To answer this would really put us off topic and I suspect we would all probably prefer not to have another one of those threads ... as happened a couple of times pre-election last year ... that pitted some "friends" against "friends" etc. Please let it suffice for me to say, with all due respect to your life experiences and your opinions, that there really are times that I do feel like a "conservative rebel" ... after all, this is the Left Coast out here, even if I am living in one of the most conservative counties ... sometimes I have to drive out of the OC and face other realities

I grew up in a household that had no tolerance for drinking....out of the 5 children that were products of that environment 4 will drink on occasion 1 is a teetotaler...myself...my husband and I do not drink..but I would be an outright liar to say that none of my 3 children has not tried it or even been inebriated once or twice...I vividly remember my oldest attending a party and calling me to get her as she had had a few too many...I picked her up(bringing with me a large bucket as car motion can induce vomiting)...she used that bucket all the way home...I never said one word to her either way about what she had done and she quizzed me a few weeks later as to why I had not read her the riot act...I explained to her that I was very angry at what she had done and probably would have said a lot I would have regretted later but that I also felt that since she was so sick that was a lesson in of itself on just how much fun it is to drink...well she is now 27 and does not drink...lesson learned...it would be very naive on my part to assume that at my sons college drinking is not part and parcle of their weekend activities....I have lectured on the ramifications of drinking to excess...what alcohol does to your brain(ever see someone with Korsakoff's Syndrome) and other parts of your body...the whole gamut...every conversation I have with him I add some thought on drinking so that he hears my voice every time he hoists one....does it work...I am not sure...but I will give my hardest and ****edest to prevent it....I do not abide in the rationalization that everyone is doing it therefore we must be tolerant...I will never be tolerant...if we hold to that theory then why not just go out and break every law set forth because everyone is "doing it"...as far as allowing my child to drink in your home...sorry but if you allow this then when I do find out(and I will find out) then you will have very irate mother to deal with...as far as the ethnic component...my husband is European....ouzo and retsina are always gracing the tables of family and friends and despite having had it that way for years many still become quite inebriated especially at functions...I am of the heritage that is well known for their drinking capabilities....beening drunk is not flattering and I have seen many who have made fools of themselves while under the influence...I can do that without the aid of alcohol

Discussions like this are always difficult because, despite the existance of the dictionary, we all have our own interpretations of words.

Being realistic does not equal tolerance. A parent can realistically expect their child to be offered alcohol, that doesn't mean they won't come down on that child for accepting.

Understanding why a child accepted that alcohol (those of us with long memories again), also doesn't mean condoning that act.

Being part of a culture that accepts alcohol openly also doesn't equate to abuse. Personally, I don't think that scare tactics work with teenagers, I think that element of danger can intrigue some with the tactic having the opposite effect.

Again, it's a matter of doing our best to equip them to make the right choice, and still being there to love them and protect them when they don't.

"Being realistic does not equal tolerance...It's a matter of doing our best to equip them to make the right choice and still being there to love them when they don't."

I'm not so sure about the "protect" part tho....As much as "protect" is in my nature as a mom, I would want my kids to face the consequences of their actions if they are merited. To me, that's one of the hardest aspects of parenting...stepping back and letting the chips fall (especially when they know the action they chose was illegal). Sometimes it is how they learn best.

There's that old debill word problem again. Perhaps 'protect' wasn't the word I should have used. I meant as in making sure they know that no matter what they do, there's one person who will always be there for them and get them what they need. (Words again: "need" doesn't mean "want".)

Orlando...you have a PM

Great Thread!

I can't say my boys have never had a drink. I will say they did not drink in HS. They felt baseball was to important, and knew not only our view on the subject but the coaches.

From reading this board, and I haven't seen it come up, sometimes recruits are offered beer just to see if they will. Maybe the coach finds out and the offer is gone.

Mine was offered at 2 of 4 schools he visited. He decided not to persue either of those schools, yet his decision of where to play didn't pan out either.... just because it wasn't offered during the visit doesn't mean it is not going to be around, and by the players, not just the general students. So in someways maybe it is best you KNOW upfront that is going to be part of it, and if it happens HOW to handle it.

From another thread on here years ago a mom or dad over heard their player talking with a bunch of guys over xmas what they did, something to the effect that the college guys were taking up collections for a keg and their son gave $10. When the classmate asked why when you don't drink, he answered, the more you drink, the worse you play, and the better shot I have at taking your job.

This is why I LOVE this PLACE!!

PA, thanks for your honesty. I would rather my son be at your house, with you having his keys than out at Beenthere's park, and decide to drive home.

FMB - - WOW - that's some selective comprehension

the LEAP was yours by removing a few of my statements from any previous context

while it would seem unlikely that someone could take my observations so far out of context - your extreme response just may give more credence to them


anyway - this is not directed at anyone - just a simplification "almost" anyone can understand


regarding views on alcohol

IF - -
#1 - a kid's introduction is by his parents at a Polka Grove in the Pocono's
or
#2 - a kid's introduction is protecting his mom from a drunk boyfriend

their perspectives are sure to be vastly different

peace

I enjoyed observing your observations, and since my son is a likely recruiting host this fall, forwarded them to him for his observation.........

Thanks for taking the time.

But if you're FormerObserver how can you be currently observing?

I guess it's time for a new name..........

Hi Hard Heat get's first pick.

Mmmmm....I don't know....H3's come up with some pretty off-the-wall names!

Orlanda! That's it!

offthewall

Thanks.

I agree --- it fits!

one of our subcontractors name is ONTHEWALL for wallcovering! (cept I think they should be OFFTHEWALL... being from TN and all)

The topic was about drinking on official visits, so I will try to stay on topic.

One of the purposes of the official visit is for the host of that recruit to introduce him to campus college life, that will certainly involve a visit to a party, tailgaiting (if on a football weekend), and visits to the other players apartments.

The host is given a list from the coaches of about 100 things he can and cannot do. The recruit is given a list before the official visit of what is expected of him. The host is also expected to report back to the coach if he feels that the recruit does or doesn't fit in, the coach does not expect to get a minute by minute description of everything the recruit did or did not do. Basically, the question asked, "is he someone who can be part of our team". That's all the coach wants to know.

It is at that time, that everything that you have talked to your sons (or daughters) about should click into place, and they will know HOW to BEHAVE and will know if he/she fits into that atmosphere.

We never asked what son did on his official visits and he never told us. That was between him and his possible future team mates. Would be very naive of us to believe that he did not go to a party and not indulge, not because he wanted to "fit" in , but because I don't think he ever passed up a free beer in his life

Beer? glass of wine? shot of Jack Daniels? How about 2 beers? 2 glasses of wine? 2 shots of Jack? What is the purpose of alcohol? How about a joint? how about a line?

If a person does not drink to get high, then why do they drink? I guess that getting high was the answer, but why would a youngster need to get high on a visit? Is he lacking confidence? Maybe 3 Jacks will make him more confident than just one?

When I like to have a good time, I usually just go with the virgin stuff. The only times I really have a beer are when adults are around, like at the Super Bowl party. I see the points told by everyone and I will do my best to stay away from alcohol untill I am of age. There are just too many damaging effects that in my opinion override the good time.

I guess I should answer some of the people who think I'm just an awful parent - I have never bought alchohol for my kids. My husband and I drink a glass of wine or have 1 beer on a rare occasion so the kids did not grow up seeing us drinking all the time. We're actually quite dull in our advancing stage of life. And most importantly, the parents of the kids who have drank at our house did know and we never allowed him to have more than maybe 8 or 10 kids who were part of his close knit group of friends. And it was not alot, maybe 3 times. We have actually gone to alot of graduation parties where the parents and kids were all drinking. When it came time for him to have one we decided against it because we did not want a bunch of drunks carrying on in our backyard. Actually, alot of the parents don't know when to stop drinking and we did not want the underage kids drinking. It's one thing to be able to have some control over the situation and we knew we would not.
I can't tell you how many times we chose not to go away with our friends because we knew that there would be a party and I know it would've been a whole lot bigger than 10 kids. Usually one of the other couples who did go away while we stayed behind had the big bash while they were away. Since I knew what would happen, we stayed home. I also cannot tell you how many times my son would get a call from some hysterical girl who had too much to drink and a fight with her boyfriend. Usually her and her friends would ask him to come and get her and take her home. He'd always go, tell me he listened, gave advice and took her home. Usually he'd go in with her and let the parents know what happened.
I always raised them to tell me if one of their friends was in trouble to let me know because there's always a way to let the parents know without the friend knowing it was them that let the cat out of the bag. In jr. high he came to me scared that one of his friends was going to die because he was smoking. This was not someone who's mom I knew but I had to keep up my end of the bargain and call the mom to tell her Steve was very concerned. Not only was he smoking but Steve ran into him as he was stealing a lighter from a store. Recently he told me that one of our best friends' daughter had been thrown to the ground and choked by her boyfriend. Their daughter is a really good friend of his and confides quite abit to him but she never told him about this incident so when one of her friends told him about it, he confronted her. My girlfriend had asked me what was going on at a party they had (and yes the parents and kids were drinking) because our kids seemed to being having a very intense conversation. I asked him and he told me so of course I had to let my friend know. This seems like a rather level headed kid to me. I don't have all the answers, I'm just doing the best I know how. I was raised in a house where I could tell my parents everything and I guess that's how I have raised my kids. I'm not saying it's the right way, just that it's working for us. That's the end of my posting on this particular subject. We can only do what we think works with our own kids.

PAbbmom, sweet post.
Takes a lot of heart to write like that. I think your doing a fine job with your son and even Jesus made mistakes, so don't worry. Just ride out the waves.

Zero tolerance!

quote:

I/we don't know anyone who was treated at the ER for alcohol poisoning

Bee>,
My sister didn't make it to ER, either...Instead, they called the coroner...She got so drunk, she went into a coma & suffered cardiac arrest. Her "friends" thought she had "just passed out"!
Underage drinking is illegal. Any parent who would "tolerate" this kind of lifestyle, much less encourage it, should be held accountable by the courts. I honestly hope you don't have to see your kid mamed or dead from the destruction you perpetuate on your child. Maybe not today, but you may have just "created another alcoholic" that will bring havoc to his/her family or anothers.
Count me among the extremely "intolerant"!

bbmom,
you certainly have my condolences for the tradgedy your family suffered. I can understand that you have some high emotions on this topic, thanks for taking the time to post.

I just re-read my previous posts, so if you could kindly bring to my attention where I encourage underage drinking, I'll certainly retract it, I couldn't find it.



the Topic - drinking on an official visit

MY position from the get-go has been - -
parent your kids (& 18 yr ods) to deal with the real word, communicate, be consistent, keep lovin' 'em when they make mistakes, comunicate some more

the popular position seems to be - -
outrage, cross schools off your list, iron fist (w/18 yr olds), zero tolerance, & more outrage
(or is it rage?)

AND - I have also been informed the later position is actually the "healthy view"

go figure!


Bear, clue me in on the "zero tolerance" deal regarding an 18 yr old who's about to leave home - "out of the will", or what?? (and hey, I got NO leverage there)


by FBM
"Bee> used regarding tolerance and intolerance have anything to do with cultural influence ... personal experiences, perhaps. But I still think it is quite a leap to use the word 'intolerant' under these circumstances"

FBM - "tolerant/intolerant" reference was to ALCOHOL, reading it "in context" it should be clear

Bee>
I don't have "high emotions". I have common sense!
Regardless of my little sisters' "choice", it is illegal & utterly disregarding ones health, mentally, emotionally, psycologically & physically, as well as potentially others.
My post is directed at "any parent"...then "that parent"...Whoever it is...should be held accountable & I hope that a tragedy is not visited upon "that parent".
Sorry you interpretted that it was directed at you personally...unless the shoe fits.

Concerning drinking on official visits, I've had the talk with my kid...He gets it.

bbmom, the misunderstanding is yours

RE: "Parts of a Letter"

(salutation) Bee>,
(followed by body of the letter "to" Bee) .....................
"Any parent who would tolerate this kind of lifestyle should be held accountable by the courts.
I honestly hope you" ....................



best of luck on your son's visits

Good discussion: Drinking is part of society and certainly a big part of college life and perhaps even more prevalent with college sports. I think parents sometimes send the wrong message - i.e. Official visit: Parent is part of the "good old boy" society where drinking is accepted. Parent wants son to "fit in". Son wants to be well liked and for host players to think he is a "team player". Thus pressure to conform off the field.

Bee,
Are you from Youngstown?

Orlando,
Heck, 29 years ago in my lamaze class they strongly suggested drinking beer. They still do!

Pabbmom

You say you never bought alcohol for your kids but in an earlier post you said you let kids drink at your house. I do not see the logic.

TPM, the beer in the LaMaze class was for YOUR HUSBAND!

OffTheWall, My understanding of the post was that her Lamaze instructor strongly suggested that TPM drink beer 29 years ago, and (to this day) they still encourage TPM to drink beer . Hey, I understand that...

I don't think any drinking happened when my middle son went on his official visit, but when my older son, who plays football, went...his "official visit host" got so drunk that my son had to take care of him all night..it was my son's first experience with this and he was not distressed at all. He did not go to that school. The thing that upset me as a parent was that the coaches stopped by during this official visit to drop off another recruit...saw what was happening and did nothing. Wow!!!!

OTW,
I don't understand the fomerly FORMberObserver part?
Orlando,
Experiencing jet lag, thanks for explaining. What I meant is that they suggested that nursing woman drink beer and still do for nursing women to this day, 29 years later.
Not that TPM doesn't enjoy a beer once in a while
Got a great recipe for lime beer anyone interested?
I am just finding this thread very interesting, I don't think it was meant for us to get into a discussion on underage drinking.

But just for converstaion, I am trying to get into place a program in our schools here on peers helping peers regarding safe rides home, instead of getting into a car when drinking at a party.
NO ONE, not even parents seem to be very much interested.

Curious, hasn't anyone received information before the Official Visit regarding the policy on drinking while on visitation?

Surely you jest, TPM. I have never heard of anyone, anywhere encouraging alcohol intake for nursing mothers. Quite the opposite, actually.

A relative who is a fully degreed nurse specializing in pedi was appalled at the thought of nursing mothers consuming alcohol.

Back to the original thought in the thread.

Even if a kid drinks (which I would not recommend), I would not recommend him drinking on a recruiting trip.

Texan,
I said it was beer. I think Orlando got it.

quote:

Even if a kid drinks (which I would not recommend), I would not recommend him drinking on a recruiting trip.

Ditto, there Texan, Ditto.

quote:

fomerly FORMberObserver part

Was on my second six pack on the couch with my wireless keyboard....................

TPM, guess that one is slipping right by me. {Not that it takes much on a Monday.}

FO aka OTW,
I find your honesty quite refreshing

Bee,
in reference to Ohio U being pegged as the #2 party school in the USA by the Princeton Review


I heard the OU students want a recount

they're not buying Wisconsin Madison as #1

Texan, I started the nursing mothers on Guiness element. In England, new mothers in hospital are offered Guiness both for the iron content and the dialation of blood vessels. I'm not surprised a US nurse would be appalled. I found many differences in the medical field there.

I have heard people say it is best to be drunk before trying to eat the food in England...

Don't be silly.

They don't have food in England.

thanks chair, I'll pass that along -

her crowd is a bit different - - I once walked in "unannounced" on an unsupervised track/cc party that we found out about - - & I'm figuring - "I gotcha"

I found coolers full to the brim with poweraid & bottled water - - kitchen counters lined with pans of spagetti, lasagna, salsa, trail mix, and UNBUTTERED popcorn

I made some excuse about needing something from my daughter's jeep - - anyway they welcomed me to stay for the 2 Steve Prefontaine movies that they were gonna watch (4+ hrs) -

I mumbled something about meeting some friends at B'dubs for some wings & a FB game and quickly left



TPM, 20 mi west of Y'Town, 10 mi south of Kent

quote:

I heard the OU students want a recount

they're not buying Wisconsin Madison as #1

They can have all the recounts they want, it's not even close.

Which is one of the reasons my son was not allowed to apply there.

My son got his official-visit package in the mail yesterday from a school notorious for its party rep. I'm sure I read in no less than four different places in the package that they have a zero-tolerance policy for alchohol consumption (and other activities as well) by recruits and student hosts during official visits. ...not entirely clear what "zero tolerance" consequences might be, but it sounds foreboding enough.

I'm not so naive as to think it doesn't happen, or that he won't find himself in a situation where he's faced with a choice during his visit. But I have spoken with him about it, thanks in large part to this thread, and he's made it clear that he's not going to jeapordize his opportunity to play at this school just to have a beer. He can wait, and he knows how to say no without being disrespectful or judgemental. It will be interesting to learn what his actual experience in this area will be.

Film at 11:00...

There are place you don't show up drunk. Official recruiting visits is one of them. If the kid is not bright enough to get that, then college baseball, among other things, probably won't work out.

As in all situations know what the rules are going in. If your son finds himself in a situation that may cause trouble he has to make a decision. As parents the "we know it is going on mentality" has to be tempered with we know but you better not be involved and if you are you face the music. The college situation is much different than high school as they are on their own and sad to say drinking is glorified as a right of passage in those years.

quote:

sad to say drinking is glorified as a right of passage in those years

Sad to say that it's glorified as a right of passage by many parents. Again -- mixed messages

HRDAD

As I have said on other occassions kids will do what you let them. In my youth my parents laid down the law and you better abide by it. Black and white no areas of grey. They were tough. If I screwed up I knew what was coming. There was consequences to my actions. Of course that was in the dark ages when parents were not enlightened by all the psychologists and psychiatrists who today write books telling parents how to raise their kids. How to be their friend and be mindful of their childs self esteem. Anybody can be a mother or father but it takes special people to be moms and dads.

Will ...

quote:

Of course that was in the dark ages when parents were not enlightened by all the psychologists and psychiatrists who today write books telling parents how to raise their kids

You and I must have lived in the same neighborhood growing up (I grew up in Pennsylvania) ... and we used a similar approach with our youngin' ... absolutely NO mixed messages, and he knew the basic 'law of the land' ... them that pays the bills makes the rules. We had no problems when he was in high school, and when he was in college, what he did at school out of our eyesight and earshot was between him and God. But whenever he was home for breaks, holidays, or the summer, he respected our rules until he was on his own.

HRDAD ...

There are a lot of things I learned from my parents however I must admit at the time I did not like everything but who said being a parent demanded approval from your kids. As I look at it you are stuck(for lack of a better description) with one another so make the best of it. somebody onc said it is easy to do the right thing when everybody is looking the hard part is doing the same when nobody is looking.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bee>:
bbmom,

the Topic - drinking on an official visit

MY position from the get-go has been - -
parent your kids (& 18 yr ods) to deal with the real word, communicate, be consistent, keep lovin' 'em when they make mistakes, comunicate some more

the popular position seems to be - -
outrage, cross schools off your list, iron fist (w/18 yr olds), zero tolerance, & more outrage
(or is it rage?)

AND - I have also been informed the later position is actually the "healthy view"

go figure!


Bear, clue me in on the "zero tolerance" deal regarding an 18 yr old who's about to leave home - "out of the will", or what?? (and hey, I got NO leverage there)

/QUOTE]

Quite simply if a student-athlete is drinking, and gets caught by local authorities, the school administration, or the coaches, by NCAA
and college guidelines that he/she agreed too, there the student athlete would be become a student and removed from the baseball program.
ie college has zero tolerance for underage drinking!

Regards
Bear

quote:

Originally posted by BigWI:
[QUOTE]I heard the OU students want a recount

they're not buying Wisconsin Madison as #1

QUOTE]

BW,

I should have called, I stopped into Madison WI, several times this summer.

cheers
Bear

Can you say "cheers" on here?

Good post Bear.......cheers.

bear, curious plan
the visiting player is not yet a student at the college, nor member of the baseball team, nor under NCAA substance testing

and as we read on another topic it prolly would be impossible to even find a "one strike and OUT" code of conduct anywhere

you as the "zero tolerance" parent, I'd guess must remove him from his hs team, then after graduation get him a factory job, passing on college - or am I missing something?



skol



ps - I work in a factory, but not as punisment (I don't think)

quote:

Originally posted by Bee>:
bear, curious plan the visiting player is not yet a student at the college, nor member of the baseball team, nor under NCAA substance testing

and as we read on another topic it prolly would be impossible to even find a "one strike and OUT" code of conduct anywhere

you as the "zero tolerance" parent, I'd guess must remove him from his hs team, then after graduation get him a factory job, passing on college - or am I missing something?

skol

ps - I work in a factory, but not as punisment (I don't think)

Bee,

1. I'm not sure of your message that you work in a factory......I work with a Shipyard, (whatever is left of it).

2. I am trying to support a young man (not of my blood, yet love him like family) who was drafted out of HS, drafted again 1st year from HS, ran into a zero tolerance college issue, had a life altering family issue,
and has been overlooked by last years June draft.

What I do, as a baseball man, that cares about the young man, is to try to help? And the network of great baseball men is as deep as it is wide!

3. Young teenagers today try to grow up too fast. In retrospect, 24+, 25+, 26+ y/o, with what's left of a baseball career, long to be younger!

4. Is it ["impossible to even find a "one strike and OUT" code of conduct anywhere"] ??

....It is probably NOT possible to find a college that is NOT zero-tolerant to student-athletes who break the law!

5. Are you missing something?
I have no clue.

However, may I suggest you continue helping your "student" as a parent and find a way to send the message that he/she enter, stay in, and or return to college, and try and graduate with either with a AA or Bachelors.

Good Luck

Bear

If the boy dont drink he simply says--" I will have a club soda with lime"

Is it that difficult ?

bear, I think we're on the same page, just expressing it differently

best of luck with your young man, I'm sure he'll look back and be glad he had you in his corner

Look, so we can end some of the acrimony:

I'm all for it. It probably would have helped.

Oh, you're talking about the kids?

Let them find their own party. They probably won't have to look very hard.

There are so many other things that are more important than this. That this thread got to a second page surprises me.

With all due respect, move along.

Thanks Old VAman. It seems that this issue was taken way too far and everyone has to remember that it is mostly kids like your own sons. You know your sons and you know that they won't likely do this stuff. There are always people out there that will get drunk but most baseball players have good heads on their shoulders and we know when the line is crossed.

quote:

I should have called, I stopped into Madison WI, several times this summer.

I wish you had, I would have driven up and taken you out for Pizza!

The good news is I expect I will be coming out your way more often now the Kris is going to school out there.

Driving him out on Friday (If there is any GAS)

Won't be able to call you this trip, but will try next time.

D,

Have the young son stop by the house for something to eat. JHU is 15 min away!

Regards
Bear

My son was offered a drink on a non-baseball visit with a host student at a very prominent university last spring. I died laughing when he told me how he replied...
He told them.. "I am closer to 12 than 21" and it ended the issue.

quote:

Originally posted by Bear:
D,

Have the young son stop by the house for something to eat. JHU is 15 min away!

Regards
Bear

Tom,

I will let him know, Thanks.

We leave at 9:00 Tomorrow, getting a bit nervious about the drive.

Well heres what i experienced, usually you go to a football game, then go to parties after, there will be drinks there, and your not forced to drink, so its your own decision, but yes there ARE drinks there, it IS a college party, the coaches have no clue about it, but its part of the real world, so if your not gonna drink you wont, if you do you do. Thats just how it is. Its all up to you.

I think that younger people posting in this thread are going to have a very different opinion then the older people posting. I'm a high school student, and most students have drank at one point or another. It's not just athletes or kids thats not in school, it's drama kids, smart kids, everyone. A little alcohol is a lot different than a little coke or another drug. If you manage your alcohol correctly there shouldn't be a problem. In Europe teens are allowed to drink and they don't seem to be having problems with it. A coach should never drink on a visit, but a player at parties, that's up to him. But like I said, drinking is a natural occurance. If you punished everyone who drank in high school you'd be punishing the majority of the kids.

nd943,
It's called peer pressure, most student's want to fit in to there little group. And do not want to feel like there not part of the crowd.
And yes Drinking is just like other Drug's, It's mind altering.
in fact it is sometime's the worst drug ever made.
And to think that a Parent's View is differant then a HS student's View about underage Drinking and Drug use.
Well maybe the parent's understand what has happened to themselves are other people that they have Known, When they let Drinking and drug's into there live's to a point were they no longer had control of there own life.
Spiraling down to the Bottom of depth's and despair.

On a lighter note.
You and you alone are Responseable for your action's.
Live with the consequences.
Are Learn from other's that may have something to say about this subject. EH

I'm not saying underage drinking is good, just that it happens. Some kids do it to fit in, but I think more do it because they want to. It's not just upper level high school kids that drink either. It's freshmen, sophomores, and even some middle school kids too.

quote:

but I think more do it because they want to.

You and you alone are Responseable for your action's.
Live with the consequences. EH

I havent read the whole thread only a few posts here and there but I'd like to add that drinking in High School can mess up your future even worse than drinkin in college my cousin was going to football camps and being looked at by Glen Mason of the Gophers and he had a party on homecoming night and got cought and got a minor next thing you know he quits football and parties every weekend. He ended up with 4 minors by the end of the year. Now he transfered to a different school and transfered back and its a big mess but he's gettin his head back on straight now but his college dreams of football have long since gone out the window

quote:

You and you alone are Responseable for your action's.
Live with the consequences. EH

EH:

I had overnight baseball visits at more than 5 schools and at all but one I was offered drinks. I didn't end up drinking, because first of all I didn't drink at all in high school and secondly because I didn't want to even take the chance that by some fluke the coach found out about the incident. However, that doesn't mean that those players who took me to the parties are bad kids who aren't worthy of my presence at the school as many of you have implied. It is college and for better or worse that is the atmosphere that college students live in. My school's unofficial motto is "where fun comes to die", and yet there is a lot of underage drinking.

agallan,
You are a very responsible person.
You seen that maybe your actions do mean something to other's ?? Maybe not?
EH

my son had two overnight visits where the baseball kids got roaring drunk. Although he is no angel he was horrified and it put him off both schools. Sets a very bad example for those looking at schools.

Ok I don't think drinking should happen on official visits and I really don't see the appeal of drinking at all - I have tried it on a few occasions and I just don't see the appeal in it. I have never been drunk and don't plan on it.

Now that being said I don't think the coach is completely at fault if it happens. You have to look back at the parents of the recruit and player first. Drinking on the visit probably isn't the first time those kids drank.

I went to college and played baseball and went to parties all the time. My closest buddies on the team (there were 5 of us) did not drink at all and we went to the parties and were still popular. You can go to parties and not have a drink. If I was in charge of a recruiting visit back in the day I would have taken the kid to a party. I had fun at parties (although I never drank) and would want a recruit to see how much fun is at parties. If he said anything about drinking I would tell him my views and that I did not drink and if he chose to drink I was not going to babysit him that night and the coach would be notified. Now it's his choice. When I went to a party I was never pressured into trying to drink. People did ask me if I wanted something but when I told them I didn't drink the usual response was "sweet that's more for me".

I hope to be a college coach in the coming weeks and I already have my views on drinking (although I have to go with what the head coach has established).

I will not tolerate it at all by anyone under the age of 21.

If you are over the age of 21 then it is your choice if you do it.

Under 21 you drink during the off season then you will be punished - during the season you will be removed from the team.

Over 21 and you drink during the season you will be removed from the team as well.

If I put you in charge of a recruit (and I hope I pick good kids to lead the recruit) and there is drinking the player is off the team because that is not the image I want for my team, school and what I endorse as a coach.

I am not going to go out and try and follow my players to catch them drinking. They are all legal adults and are responsible for their decisions. If they can drink and get away with it then so be it but if they get caught then I will punish them as I see fit.

The season is what you practice and play for. If you cannot say no to alcohol for the 4 months or so it takes for the season then you have a problem.

coach2709: Way to go. Great philosophy.

Coach 2709,
I applaude your stance! I wish more coaches had this type of policy. Too often, they just ignore "the problem".

Coach2709, Thank You. I applaud your stance. I guess I'm just old school or old time enough to ask, "if your underage, we shouldn't be having this discussion." If whether or not you should drink on your official visit is a concern of yours, you need to re-think your priorities and get your act together.

concrats & good stance c-2709 ...

tho I doubt it's as much a problem as many here are lead to believe
if you are as adamant about the weight room you'll go far

anyway, don't beat your guys up tooo much and good luck!!

Coach2709, I agree to a point.
I believe that players should be responseable,
And be held accountable for there action's.
But not to the point of being kicked off the team for a first and maybe only mistake.
I believe in second chances, After punishment of course.
But I would like to help them to understand there action's and the effects that they could have on there life.
To lose everything, without the possibility of redeemtion.

I don't know, I would like a second chance sometimes.
EH

Everyone should be responsible for their own actions. By the time they are HS seniors they have faced many temptations and in college they will face many more. People have choices.

Situation exists probably just about everywhere, but as stated multiple times - kid has to take responsibility.

One visit Junior went on, team took him to an off-campus party. get there, immediately gets offered a beer, declines, saying he can't b/c of his medication. gets asked what he has, tells them, gets these replies:

Player #1: Man, that's a shame, my mom has Rheumatoid Arthritis - that su<ks.

Player #2: Yeah, really, my brother has Crohn's disease -- that REALLY su<ks.

Player #3: "Oh, man, that's great, we have a designated driver" and tosses Junior the keys!!

Hey sorry for not getting back with people sooner but I am at my moms house and she has dial up so I try to stay off here because I have no patience.

EH you make some good points and I really won't disagree with you but I can't also really agree either. When reading your response something comes to my mind about mixed messages that coaches at different levels send (I hope we don't really get off topic here but I think it sort of applies).

Why in high school do you hear a lot of coaches talk about the players as "young men" and in college you hear a lot of coaches talk about the players as "boys"? One implies being responsible for your actions and knowing the difference between right and wrong while the other implies not really knowing the difference and should be given the chance to learn.

As for the underage drinking I can always back up my rule with "it's against the law". If a player (regardless of age) breaks into a store and steals stuff or rapes a female would you give that player a second chance so he could learn from his mistake? Now the flipside to that would be so is getting a speeding ticket - all of those are against the law so where do you draw the line between educating vs. eliminating because of serious trouble.

It's a tough spot to be in but I feel if you post and let your players and their parents know the rules then they are now responsible for the decisions they make. They know something is against the rules and what the consequences are now they are responsible for their decision. If they have to learn from that mistake then what else will you have to teach that player?

Honestly I have changed my rules over the years. I used to can players when they got caught drinking but now I make it a school decision. It has actually became the basis for the school policy as to how to handle alcohol and tobacco offenses for our school in this upcoming school year. So in my case the school has taken the decision away from me and other coaches.

Lastly if a college player who is probably getting part of his education paid for through a scholarship and other award lined up by the coach (probably) has to have a drink during the season - has a problem and needs help. To me his parents are the only ones who can provide that help. If he cleans up and proves he has changed then I will consider a second chance but until then I have 30 - 40 other players I am responsible for.

quote:

by c-2709: if a college player .. has to have a drink during the season - (he) has a problem and needs help... his parents are the only ones who can provide that help. If he cleans up and proves he has changed then I will consider a second chance but until then I have 30 - 40 other players I am responsible for.

if you indeed feel you are "resposible" for managing the day to day off field behavior of 40 guys w/50%+ being over 21 ...
that's either admirable or crazy

exactly when will you have time to teach, coach & play baseball?


re parents: I'm thinking not to many parents are involved in the day to day management of their adult children - - exception, Ray Romano



are players also in jeopardy for violating fish & game laws?
or do you have an "A" list, like robbery, rape, and a 21 yr old having a beer at Pizza Hut?

coach2709,
If there forewarned, then its there responsiability
To follow the rules.
All a coach can do is be consistant.
EH

quote:

are players also in jeopardy for violating fish & game laws?
or do you have an "A" list, like robbery, rape, and a 21 yr old having a beer at Pizza Hut?

Bee not sure I get what you are implying here and with other parts of your post. Could you explain a little more - thanks.

EH that is my point completely. I am not going to enforce something that they do not know. If I don't have a rule about drinking then I can't do anything about it. If I have a rule then I have to do something. A kid or their parents don't agree they can go play for someone else.

coach, I tried to lead you toward reaching some obvious conclusions, but ...

ok, so before giving yourself high fives, consider the following


the issue(s) we're discussing here have been "issues" for a looong time -
IF/WHEN you land a job as a college assistant you'll find

a) you are their employee

b) your university as an institution has ALREADY established policies in this area

c) they rely on "entry level staff" to follow the policies .. not to re-invent them

d) those policies are passed DOWN the chain of command thru the athletic department to the Head Coaches, who in turn spell them out to the assistants

e) assistant coaches are at the very bottom of that chain of command -

f) policies are NOT passed UP the chain of command

g) an assistant's stance on an issue is irrelevant unless it's also the stance of the university .. in which case it isn't really his stance, it's the school's

h) privacy laws protect most student info

i) I'm going out on a limb here, but I'm guessing that privacy policy would trump the crusade of an entry level staff member to notify parents that HE diagnosed their 21 yr old kid as needing substance counseling for having a beer at the Wing Place while watching the NBA finals.


however, I'd back ya on counseling IF he were watching "world cup futbol" & drinking sweet tea



j) and, of course .. wishing you the best

Wow glad to see you really didn't pay any attention to any of my posts. I pretty much hit on most of the important stuff you listed.

quote:

Originally posted by Bee>:
coach, I tried to lead you toward reaching some obvious conclusions, but ...

ok, so before giving yourself high fives, consider the following


the issue(s) we're discussing here have been "issues" for a looong time -
IF/WHEN you land a job as a college assistant you'll find

a) you are their employee

*********YES THAT IS CORRECT***********

b) your university as an institution has ALREADY established policies in this area

*****CAN YOU GUARANTEE EVERY SCHOOL HAS A POLICY? THE SCHOOL I AM INTERVIEWING WITH DOESN'T HAVE ONE IN PLACE. THAT IS ONE OF THE THINGS MYSELF AND THE HEAD COACH HAS TALKED ABOUT. LAST YEAR WAS HIS FIRST AND HE IS RELEASING ABOUT HALF THE ROSTER BECAUSE OF DRUG AND ALCOHOL PROBLEMS. HE SAID THE SCHOOL WILL LET HIM DO AS HE SEES FIT.******

c) they rely on "entry level staff" to follow the policies .. not to re-invent them

**********AS I STATED EARLIER THAT IN THE HIGH SCHOOL I MIGHT BE LEAVING DID NOT HAVE ANY POLICIES IN PLACE. THE NEW IDEAS THAT HAVE TURNED INTO POLICY CAME FROM ME - "ENTRY LEVEL STAFF". IF THERE IS NO POLICY BUT ALL OF A SUDDEN THERE IS ONE IT HAD TO BE FROM SOMEONE.**********

d) those policies are passed DOWN the chain of command thru the athletic department to the Head Coaches, who in turn spell them out to the assistants

*********A GOOD HEAD COACH WILL LISTEN TO HIS ASSISTANTS. IF I HAVE AN IDEA ON A POLICY ON ANYTHING I AM GOING TO PRESENT IT TO THE HEAD COACH AND THEN IT'S UP TO HIM IF HE WANTS TO FOLLOW IT OR NOT. IF HE FOLLOWS IT THEN I GUESS IT DID GO UP THE CHAIN.********

e) assistant coaches are at the very bottom of that chain of command -

***********YES YOU ARE CORRECT BUT STILL A LINK THE CHAIN AND SHOULD BE LISTENED TO************

f) policies are NOT passed UP the chain of command

*********POLICIES ARE HANDED DOWN THE CHAIN OF COMMAND BUT IDEAS SHOULD BE ABLE TO GO UP THE CHAIN OF COMMAND AND MAYBE ONE DAY COME DOWN AS POLICY******

g) an assistant's stance on an issue is irrelevant unless it's also the stance of the university .. in which case it isn't really his stance, it's the school's

************PUBLICLY YOU ARE CORRECT BECAUSE THE ASSISTANT SHOULD FOLLOW WHAT THE BOSS WANTS. BEHIND CLOSED DOORS HE SHOULD BE ABLE TO DISAGREE WITH THE STATUS QUO**********

h) privacy laws protect most student info

***********NO IDEA WHERE YOU GOT ANYTHING FROM WHAT I PUT TO MENTION THIS BUT I WILL AGREE WITH YOU********

i) I'm going out on a limb here, but I'm guessing that privacy policy would trump the crusade of an entry level staff member to notify parents that HE diagnosed their 21 yr old kid as needing substance counseling for having a beer at the Wing Place while watching the NBA finals.

************WELL I DO HAVE A MASTERS DEGREE IN COUNSELING SO I WOULD HAVE A GOOD IDEA IF SOMEONE HAS A PROBLEM. ALSO I HAVE A SISTER WHO IS GETTING CLEAN AND SOBER SO I HAVE ALSO SEEN HOW IT CAN CHANGE A PERSON. BY THE WAY GUESS HOW ALCOHOLISM GETS STARTED???? BY DRINKING ALCOHOL. NOW DON'T GET ALL UPTIGHT AND THINK I AM SAYING THAT JUST BECAUSE YOU DRINK YOU WILL BECOME AN ALCOHOLIC. MY POINT IS WHY DRINK DURING THE SEASON? HOW WILL IT BENEFIT YOUR PERFORMANCE? IF YOU HAVE THE CONTROL TO NOT DRINK DURING THE SEASON THEN YOU SHOULD NOT DO IT. BUT IF YOU CANNOT STOP YOURSELF FROM DRINKING THEN YOU HAVE A PROBLEM.*******


however, I'd back ya on counseling IF he were watching "world cup futbol" & drinking sweet tea

*********YEAH FUTBOL IS PRETTY LAME*********



j) and, of course .. wishing you the best

Please don't take the all caps as "shouting". I just wanted to show the difference in what you put versus what I put.

I am not as **** as you think but policy is policy regardless of who comes up with it.

I wish you the best as well.

quote:

by C2709: THE SCHOOL I AM INTERVIEWING WITH DOESN'T HAVE ONE (policy) IN PLACE. THAT IS ONE OF THE THINGS MYSELF AND THE HEAD COACH HAS TALKED ABOUT.

hmm, a college w/no student conduct code or discipline policies ...
sounds interesting, you may indeed have your hands full, especially w/no apparent support from your administration.

quote:

by c2709: DELETED by the BEE>

sounds like someone will have a busy summer recruiting.

good luck, it could be a tough sell as many players/parents would hesitate committing to an admitted party school atmosphere, governed by an administration w/few or no rules

C2709, you have a PM

quote:

Originally posted by Walawala:
coach2709,

I dont know where you plan on or are coaching right now but if every kid who drank and used tabacco during the season got kicked off my team, there would be no team.

I think some of you older people are being a little bit naive. College student athletes are adults capable for making descisions for themselves. At some point the parents and coaches have to stop making all the descisions for them. If they make a poor choice and get in trouble with the school or law, or their athletic/academic performance suffers because of it, then that is something they have to live with and take responsibility for. Its part of growing up.

I cant imagine there being a competitive D1 baseball team where nobody on the team used alcohol, tobacco, or even drugs.

If you want to run 9 choir boys out there you might go 0-56.

How old do you think I am and exactly what is your definition of old is? I would also like to know how old you are if you don't mind. To get the ball rolling I am only 33 years old. Although I am no longer a young guy I am by no means "old".

You said that

quote:

College student athletes are adults capable for making descisions for themselves. At some point the parents and coaches have to stop making all the descisions for them. If they make a poor choice and get in trouble with the school or law, or their athletic/academic performance suffers because of it, then that is something they have to live with and take responsibility for. Its part of growing up.

and I believe that supports my case. If it is a rule you cannot drink during season nor visits and you do then you made an adult decision and have to suffer the consequences of it. If it's stated you are removed from the team then the player chose to remove themselves from the team.

Do you honestly think no school in America doesn't have policies like this? Do you think the coaching staffs and schools of the 8 teams going to the College World Series don't have some sort of no drinking policy?

I know college students are going to drink and do drugs and all kinds of stuff that would make good parents upset and I am not going to go sneaking around the campus and outlying area trying to find them doing the stuff. If they choose to do it then they have to suffe the consequences.

It is about choices and having rules. As Bee has stated what if a guy goes to Pizza Hut to eat some wings, watch the NCAA tournament and drink a pitcher - he better hope I don't walk in on him because we would be in season.

If you really look into all college programs you will see the drinking policies - regardless if they are from the school or coach - are not something new.

quote:

by C2709: Do you think the coaching staffs and schools of the 8 teams going to the College World Series don't have some sort of no drinking policy?

I don't know where/how you got that into your head ... from my experience during 4 DI seasons, & 4 post seasons w/Omaha ... No, I don't think they do

tobacco? you mean like the coach from an un-named rival in Fla's panhandle w/the wad in his cheek on tv?

in another topic here some pretty reliable sources decribed the harsh warnings they recieved from their staff regarding steroids - - followed up by a house location, ph # and contact name ...
so they'd be sure to avoid it?

quote:

by C2709: As Bee has stated what if a guy goes to Pizza Hut to eat some wings, watch the NCAA tournament and drink a pitcher - he better hope I don't walk in on him because we would be in season.

that's a heck of a season if you're still playing during NBA or NCAA finals

...if you hit .400 you can drink all you want.

I never mentioned the NBA finals - only NCAA finals (tournament) which happens in March. You know March Madness? When do you think college baseball season is played?

Also, everyone is entitled to their opinion and I could care less what you think. I am going to do what I think is right and go from there.

I am now finished posting here because everyone involved is too stuck in what they believe.

quote:

2709 says: LAST YEAR WAS HIS FIRST AND HE IS RELEASING ABOUT HALF THE ROSTER BECAUSE OF DRUG AND ALCOHOL PROBLEMS ... I am going to do what I think is right and go from there.

"what is right" is keeping confidential info confidential


hmm, the new assistant posting drug & alcohol accusations regarding his players on a public message board ... I don't believe I've ever seen that before


ya may want to study up on the school's privacy policies, because the HC may have some explaining to do for publicly releasing medical/discipline file info thru you on his players

I know I said I wouldn't post anymore but I have to say Bee that you are an idiot. In none of my posts have I mentioned who I am, where I want to coach at nor the school I am interested in. I really don't see how anybody can identify who I am talking about since the HC never told me which players were dismissed for their problems.

Also, how can it be confidential when ESPN puts everything on their news reports? Pro and college players problems are on the news all the time.

I am glad you have a wealth of knowledge in the world of college coaching when you have PROBABLY never coached at that level - if you have then I apologize for assuming wrong.

If you and walawalla want to allow drinking then go ahead and do it. I don't care because that would be your team. This thread was about what to do on drinking on an official visit and I posted my views.

people skills and integrity are pretty important for those in coaching roles.

since you HAD clearly identified your potential employer I (tactfuly) noted in a recent PM my concern that you had compromised team/school privacy and deleted my previous "quote" reference to it, suggesting you do the same (page 8). it went unheeded

due to your employment offer & access to inside info w/HC it's likely that any who read your diatribe would conclude that ALL players released from that team have serious substance abuse issues.

I do have a problem with you laying it out as fact in public as I'm sure would the players, parents, and the school.

it's likely that some close to that program are now following your comments with interest
I gotta wonder how they'd come across to an AD preparing to interview ya, or to players and potential recruits


I will be pulling for the guys on that team hoping that things work out for them ...

they deserve some quality adults as mentors and role models



btw, in re-reading my posts, none indicate an endorsement of underage drinking
but do endorse the use of "horse sense", a seemingly rare commodity