Drop and drive or tall and fall???

quote:

Originally posted by turnin2:
What do you teach in that aspect of mechanics??? I would say I'm more drop and drive and through high school, college, and as a "BP Machine" as my kids refer to me, still never get too sore or tired in the arm. My questioning is to benefit one of my players, he's about 6'3" and at a camp was told to "you are tall stay tall." Gimme some input on this tall and fall theory.

I tend to prefer that pitchers stay as tall because I believe that that causes the ball to be released on a more vertical plane.

Having said that, I have to admit that there have been many successful drop and drivers (e.g. Seaver and Oswalt).

If there was only one way...

I'm a believer in the "drop and drive method" too. But there is an advantage form throwing "downhill” as they say.

I like seeing a small break in the back knee as you start toward the plate. After that a lot is kid specific. I don't want the kid to get low or dive toward the plate. I think I get the best of both theories. You get momentum started with that break in the knee, but then drive forward and stay tall as you reach you release point and then follow through, low.

I simply try to get my kids to stand tall and relaxed. When they deliver the pitch, I want them to push with the calf muscle. My feeling is that if you dip and drive throughout the game you are going to tire and your mechanics will deteriorate. Everyone can stand upright and relaxed much easier than doing a squat 100 times per game. As they bring their front leg up they will get a slight natural bed in the back leg, this is fine but we try to avoid dipping.

I think it's right on to say it's specific to the player. You see both at the highest level.

My only thought on dropping and driving (and I may be completely wrong on this) is I always feel like guys that throw four seam fastballs like to drop and drive to get more velocity, but I think for those guys it can also flatten their fastball out. My reasoning: the only change in plane in a four seamer is due to a pitcher releasing the ball atop a mound and throwing down towards home plate since there is little to no movement side to side on a four seamer. By dropping and driving, you lower your release point and lose some of that downward plane the mound gives you.

Common sense tells you that the mound is there for a reason, and by dropping and driving you are giving up some of the advantages offered by pitching from a mound. However, as has been said previously, plenty of guys make it work for them. All I'm saying is that if you rely on a four seamer as your primary fastball, dropping and driving may give you some flattening out of your fastball, which probably would be a bad thing as players get older and can't blow straight fastballs by hitters.

So, as was my initial point, I think you have to base decisions on types of deliveries on the individual pitching style of the player in question.

Pretty small difference in angle, though. About 1 degree.

quote:

Originally posted by Texan:
Pretty small difference in angle, though. About 1 degree.

That's one of the things I wondered about. Like I said, this wasn't any scientific thinking of mine....just a personal thought and maybe I am wrong. How much of an angle above home plate is the pitcher's mound? (I'll let someone else do the math) It's only 10 inches higher than the ground around it, but it seemed to make a big difference in the late 60's when the height was lowered from 15 inches. Just some thoughts.

Google for angle calcuation.

0.8 degrees.

I personally don't like either instruction on its own, but I think both methods play a factor in the delivery. I like the "drive" for explosiveness to the plate and using the lower half, but I also like to have pitchers stay tall with the upper half of their body. This seems to help them keep their head centered and their body balanced through the delivery.

I ignore both the "drop and drive" and "tall and fall" cues. I also agree with Texan that the difference in angle by "staying tall" is insignificant and not worthy of attention over other more significant issues.

I simply focus on whether or not a pitcher builds up a good amount of momentum without inappropriate (i.e. energy-robbing) movements.

Cues...

Different cues will work with different players. And depending upon where the player needs to improve, different cues will be necessary.

Sometimes we can get too hung up on terminology. Some good comments, 07 & RT.

quote:

Originally posted by Texan:
0.8 degrees.

Does it really matter how much the difference in angle is? When you’re dealing with a sport where the smallest changes can cause significant differences, .8 degress isn’t really insignificant. A 32nd of an inch on where the ball hits on the bat can be the difference in a HR and a can-of-corn.

But when push comes to shove, there isn’t any template that will work for everyone equally well.

quote:

Originally posted by Texan:
Google for angle calcuation. 0.8 degrees.

What is the basis of this?

The difference between throwing sidearm and throwing overhand can be more than 12 inches, which is more than .6 degrees.

quote:

Originally posted by Scorekeeper:

quote:

Originally posted by Texan:
0.8 degrees.

Does it really matter how much the difference in angle is? When you’re dealing with a sport where the smallest changes can cause significant differences, .8 degress isn’t really insignificant. A 32nd of an inch on where the ball hits on the bat can be the difference in a HR and a can-of-corn.

And there is the effect of the wind, and the sun, and the temperature and the speed, and the movement on the ball. Everything has an effect. Some more than others.

I was talking to a DI coach the other day on this very topic. We've always been tall to fall. I pointed out what I percieve to be some need for improvement in our work. I do not believe in drop and drive and believe that if taught wrong, it really can hurt a kid's arm. JMO and I'm sure some of you would argue. This pitching coach pointed out a very astute observation, he asked if that same tilt I believe in for hitting has any place in the pitching motion? While not to the extent it is demonstrated in hitting, that tilt helps set the core and when done properly, give an appearance of a slight drop but isn't a drop at all. I tried his demonstration and wow. Our trainer and I are working on this now for an accurate description via muscle groups so that I can hand this out to our pitchers. If I'm confusing you, it is a kind of stick your butt out with the tilt and go. Naturally this is an oversimplication.

Demonstrations of what I've stumbled trying to say:

Personally I like "Tall and Drive".



...or was it "fall and drop"....

CoachB,

Congratulations my friend! You have just found part of the Holy Grail of the Pitching Delivery. It is also vital in the core rotation of a hitter. You describe it perfectly in your above post Coach.

Wayback figured it out several weeks back, and now you have pointed out the same tilt in body posture in the delivery of a pitcher, outstanding! It is always like a celebration when those who seek to improve their players receive gifts for their efforts. CoachB, you certainly are a deserving steward of the game to experience this> Get ready to see fruit from your labor!!

I do believe Ziggy calls the top clip example of Nolan Ryan, "bow-flex-bow", in the delivery.

If you will notice, there is no heel-to-toe in those excellent clips which perfectly demonstrate the "tilt" in the body posture in the "load" before the "acceleration phase". You nailed it Darrell, don't let anybody else make you think anything different. Stick by your guns on this one, trust me brother, you have discovered the key peace shep

quote:

Originally posted by Shepster:
If you will notice, there is no heel-to-toe in those excellent clips...

I disagree.

The Ryan clip shows him landing mostly flat, but slightly on his heel.

The Wagner clip shows him landing more on his heel than Ryan does.

I see nothing but the top of the mound and the back of the feet in the Wagner clip because the tilt of the mound causes more of a flat landing off the downhill slope in the delivery. You really can't tell by the angle of this clip of Wagner, IMHO.

Nolan Ryan lands flat, not heel-to-toe. Rivera certainly doesn't land heel-to-toe.

Look closer CC. peace shep

quote:

Originally posted by Shepster:
Nolan Ryan lands flat, not heel-to-toe. Rivera certainly doesn't land heel-to-toe.

I'll grant you that Rivera lands to the toe-to-heel side of flat. Also, like Maddux and Moyer, he tends to land on the inside of his foot.

Excellent painguy, you are open minded and I try to be, I appreciate that quality you have. Good job !! Your contributions are appreciated by me and others here. Keep it up! You're wanted here

The main objective for me is learn. I'm still learning my friend. peace, shep

Coach & Shep, I don't know if it's so much the butt tilting out, as it is the shoulders going over the knees, creating the bend that you're noticing. Shoulders over knees is key to balance. Without balance/body control, all the power in the world is just wasted.

But, as to the original question:

In my day, I emulated Seaver, worked on drop & drive, to the point of doing pushoff exercises with pulleys in the weight room.

I now believe this hinders development of both velocity and breaking pitch. (Wish I'd known this 30 years ago!)

"Tall and fall" is closer but still not exactly right. The action to the plate is not just tilting over until you can't hold it any more. It's more active.

It may be an exaggeration, but I have found that the best way to teach kids how to push off is by using one word: Don't.

As in, don't push off. Pushing off only shoves your hips forward and often causes the arm to lag behind. This robs velocity and makes it harder to get on top of breaking pitches. Sure, some can pull it off, but not many are Seaver or Oswalt.

I am a big believer in hip/trunk rotation. If you keep your lower half back over the rubber, instead of pushing it out ahead, then upon your lead foot landing, you can explode into your turn with a rotational speed that far exceeds what you can get out of a straight, calf-powered pivot leg pushing action. This will help the throwing hand whip ahead, which is where velocity really occurs. It also puts your hand in the best position to get over your breaking pitch.

I think Ryan came up in the drop & drive school with the Mets, but his control improved over the years as he changed his approach. The clip above is a great example of hip/trunk rotation allowing the pitching hand to whip through. What appears to be a push off is nothing more than the back leg trailing the hip action. The back leg is not straining, it is relaxed. It is also disengaged from the rubber far earlier than you would expect if you really believed in pushing off.

This is not pushing off, but neither is it simply allowing gravity to take its course. The lower body and trunk must remain active in creating the hip/trunk turn.

If you watch in slo mo, this is the power action of most of your 90+ guys. Whether you throw downhill or not, the key is to think of your pitching hand like cracking a whip. Start from the core and work the whip action until the hand gets to peak velocity at the release point.

I like throwing downhill more for the fact that it allows the follow through to take place less stressfully. Lots of guys generate huge MPH throwing upright, but so often you see them really jerk themselves when they stop. The downhill folding action is much smoother and to me, smoother means less risk of injury.

quote:

Originally posted by Shepster:
I see nothing but the top of the mound and the back of the feet in the Wagner clip because the tilt of the mound causes more of a flat landing off the downhill slope in the delivery. You really can't tell by the angle of this clip of Wagner, IMHO.

Nolan Ryan lands flat, not heel-to-toe. Rivera certainly doesn't land heel-to-toe.

Look closer CC. peace shep

Can't tell from this clip of Ryan either, for the same reason.

Koufax and Gibson did not land heel first. Ryan and Feller landed flat, not heel first.

quote:

Originally posted by Midlo Dad:
As in, don't push off. Pushing off only shoves your hips forward and often causes the arm to lag behind. This robs velocity and makes it harder to get on top of breaking pitches.

Agree that you don't want a violent push off. Also agree that hip rotation is very desirable.

And really, I doubt anyone literally does the tall & fall. There is some degree of push in any delivery. Just a matter of emphasis and how much.

But I can't follow your statement above. There is no reason for the arm to lag. Timing does not have to be affected by the degree of push. And the forward velocity is converted to rotational when the front knee locks in a slightly bent position, forcing the body to rotate around the front leg.

Also can't follow the logic behind being harder to get on top of breaking balls.

Midlo Dad said:

quote:

I don't know if it's so much the butt tilting out, as it is the shoulders going over the knees, creating the bend that you're noticing. Shoulders over knees is key to balance. Without balance/body control, all the power in the world is just wasted.

This is right on point Midlo Dad and I totally concur.

Midlo Dad also said this: "Whether you throw downhill or not, the key is to think of your pitching hand like cracking a whip. Start from the core and work the whip action until the hand gets to peak velocity at the release point."-Midlo Dad

This is cutting edge info and right on point as well and I appeciate your thoughts of knowledge and wisdom on this discussion. Outstanding Midlo Dad!!

That post is "GOLDEN" from start to finish!

Now we're getting close to the Grail! peace, shep

Midlo Dad said:

quote:

I like throwing downhill more for the fact that it allows the follow through to take place less stressfully. Lots of guys generate huge MPH throwing upright, but so often you see them really jerk themselves when they stop.

-End of Quote

Out of the 110+ minor league games I was in attendance in 2006, I saw "11" that threw 95MPH+ who all had this serious bobble that Midlo Dad dad describes as jerk, especially in the finish, and most all of those pitchers threw more upright than tucked. One thing I noticed, the variation of consistency in MPH from these same pitchers throughout the course of the season. Their were many who threw 95MPH+ who clearly had the bend in the waistline while loading before the acceleration phase. These pitchers' velocities were much more consistent with slight variation from outing to outing. Most of those with bend in load who landed flat-footed to frontball side in their landings were also promoted to at least AA too, or at least recommended! peace Shep

midlo dad, right or wrong, I'm a person that wants to teach a motion systematically as well as be able to stop a pitcher anywhere in that motion (stages) and have the pitcher tell me what they are doing and feeling. Therefore, I was trying to duplicate that portion of the motion I mentioned before but wasn't feeling it. This pitching coach gave me the cue to "feel like you are JUST starting to stick your butt out." Thus the mention in the post. I agree that it is more of a tilting action. BTW, in this discussion, I got 3 drills to compliment this action. When I get better versed in technology, I'll video myself doing them and if everyone promises not to laugh, I'll post them. BUT EVERYONE HAS TO PROMISE.

quote:

Originally posted by Midlo Dad:
Coach & Shep, I don't know if it's so much the butt tilting out, as it is the shoulders going over the knees, creating the bend that you're noticing. Shoulders over knees is key to balance.

It's not just a position of balance, it's also a position of postural strength - strength to maintain good posture and eliminate unnecessary movements throughout the delivery (especially during knee lift). Of course, these things are tightly coupled to balance.

I have the young kids I work with try to find that posture where they can stabilize their head and eliminate unnecessary head movement throughout their delivery. Then I have them start from that posture so they don't have to adjust into that posture during their delivery as that is itself an unnecessary movement. A pitcher who doesn't start with his strongest posture will adjust to it once he starts his delivery.

quote:

Originally posted by Midlo Dad:
I am a big believer in hip/trunk rotation. If you keep your lower half back over the rubber, instead of pushing it out ahead, then upon your lead foot landing, you can explode into your turn with a rotational speed that far exceeds what you can get out of a straight, calf-powered pivot leg pushing action. This will help the throwing hand whip ahead, which is where velocity really occurs. It also puts your hand in the best position to get over your breaking pitch.

If you're not pushing off and you're keeping the lower half back over the rubber then where does the "explosiveness" come from? I agree there is no big push-off but I disagree with keeping the lower half back over the rubber. The lower half has to "get going" as that's where momentum is initiated. (There is also muscular contibution along the way but that alone would not account for explosive rotation.) There has to be some stretch-shortening in the core and getting the lower half going increases that.

Ultimately, an explosive rotation depends on momentum/energy, proper body position/posture/balance, and proper timing.

quote:

Originally posted by CoachB25:
midlo dad, right or wrong, I'm a person that wants to teach a motion systematically as well as be able to stop a pitcher anywhere in that motion (stages) and have the pitcher tell me what they are doing and feeling.

The top pitchers in the game start their hips (and, therefore, their center of gravity) forward at or before the apex of their knee lift. From this point forward it is not really possible for them to stop unless they do things like keeping the weight back and going slow. Those kinds of things are undesirable.

quote:

BTW, in this discussion, I got 3 drills to compliment this action. When I get better versed in technology, I'll video myself doing them and if everyone promises not to laugh, I'll post them. BUT EVERYONE HAS TO PROMISE.

I promise!

Sandy Koufax

Tom Seaver

Here are a couple of greats that you fellas can argue about.

The more I read, the more I think about the cues from the past. How quickly we discount all the lessons we learned early for newer sexier terms. 1. Posture tilt = tuck the chin and bring your chest and knee toward each other (remember these). Scap load = proud chest. I am not saying there is anything wrong with any of these; it just strikes me that sometimes we try very hard to develop new ways to say similar things and that is good. I think sometimes wording something a little different can help different people get a little better picture of similar things.

Roger Thomas, when I made the post about stopping and starting, I was referring to a type of walk through with the motion. Of couse, I understand that I didn't work that paragraph very well. I have seen guys that try to have pitchers stop in their windup as they are throwing to catchers. Very dangerous in my opinion. My reference was more of what a pitcher should be able to achieve when doing mirror drills as slow tempo. Hope that clarifies that some.

i like the reponses comparing it to hitting and the use of the core. my college pitching coach used to tell me that my explosiveness came just like it did in hitting ( I was a 2-way player), from my lower half, as most of us seem to agree. Also, I loved the clips posted by coachB25, I think those give an accurate visual! as in hitting, the hips load, there is weight transfer, stride, spine alignment, and torque.

another thought to break it down more, what about the stretch?? what do you teach as balance (weight distribution), load (must go back to come forward), delivery??? to me, this is where the hitting similarity gets interesting.

quote:

Originally posted by CoachB25:
Roger Thomas, when I made the post about stopping and starting, I was referring to a type of walk through with the motion. Of couse, I understand that I didn't work that paragraph very well. I have seen guys that try to have pitchers stop in their windup as they are throwing to catchers. Very dangerous in my opinion. My reference was more of what a pitcher should be able to achieve when doing mirror drills as slow tempo. Hope that clarifies that some.

Yes, that clarifies it and I believe we are on the same page.

quote:

Originally posted by turnin2:

another thought to break it down more, what about the stretch?? what do you teach as balance (weight distribution), load (must go back to come forward), delivery??? to me, this is where the hitting similarity gets interesting.

1st, let me say that most coaches teach 2 stretch moves to the plate. One is when they are anticipating a runner running and the other for when they are behind in the count or know the runner isnt' running. The first one scares me some. It doesn't allow for proper load of the body and often kids rush that motion to the point that they stress their arms. Me? I'm more inclinded to throw over early and often. Then, rely on my catcher to throw the runner out. Of course, if you know how to call the game and anticipate then you can call pitches that give your catcher a chance. On that second stretch move, I think that you have to enable that pitcher to, again, load the core as well as gain or maintain a type of "tilt" as they load the scapula. Or as we say, get your arm out and up.

quote:

Originally posted by CoachB25:
1st, let me say that most coaches teach 2 stretch moves to the plate. One is when they are anticipating a runner running and the other for when they are behind in the count or know the runner isnt' running. The first one scares me some. It doesn't allow for proper load of the body and often kids rush that motion to the point that they stress their arms.

Use of the slide step makes the lower body quicker to the plate (pretty much because the knee lift is eliminated) while the total body moves only a little quicker. On the other hand, if you get the hips going sooner and faster, then the lower body appears no quicker (because the knee lift is retained) but the total body atually speeds up. Then you have just one motion regardless of runners on base.

But the slide step is really a different set of mechanics. Timing is very different. For those that want to work on it, fine. But they must master two sets of mechanics. Often in HS & younger ages I see velocity & control suffer in the slide step.

A quick leg lift in the stretch can accomplish pretty much the same thing. Since timing starts once the knee reaches the apex, raising the leg more quickly doesn't affect timing.

I don't like to see pick throws much at all. The pitcher can do just as well by varying his looks. This makes him unpredictable and keeps the runner from getting a jump. A pitcher who varies his looks and gets to the plate in 1.3 (which can be done with a quick leg lift as well as with the slide step) won't have much trouble at all with runners stealing with a decent catcher.

Too many pitchers are very predictable in their looks. And in that case, the runner feels comfortable in guessing & getting a good jump. He is stealing on the pitcher, not the catcher.

And a surprising number of pitchers remain very deliberate with a slow move to the plate. Not the catcher's fault.

Coach B25 Did you have that conversation in Cherry Hill ? If so, I found that coach to be most helpful regarding pitching mechanics. My interpretation of the "tilt" not so much a tilt but "pushing" hips back with a bit of leg flex, not really like hitting.

quote:

Originally posted by Texan:
But the slide step is really a different set of mechanics. Timing is very different. For those that want to work on it, fine. But they must master two sets of mechanics. Often in HS & younger ages I see velocity & control suffer in the slide step.

I'm not sure you understood but I was endorsing a single set of mechanics.

quote:

A quick leg lift in the stretch can accomplish pretty much the same thing. Since timing starts once the knee reaches the apex, raising the leg more quickly doesn't affect timing.

I think this is true only if you don't start forward until the apex of the knee lift. I try to get my pitchers going forward before the apex of the knee lift so, for me, timing starts with first forward movement.