Effort in hands....

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...If the top hand doesnt reach here?

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pitch location and other things considered.......

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Originally posted by deemax:
I agree, but my question is with the effort through impact in relation to are you going fast enough at impact if you dont reach this post impact position. Im not trying to state fact, just raise a question that I was presented with that Im still trying to answer.

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but what your hands do after contact means nothing, the ball is gone and you can do nothing to change where it goes after that.

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Deemax, wouldn't the final kick be the final kick on every swing?.......

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Originally posted by deemax:

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but what your hands do after contact means nothing, the ball is gone and you can do nothing to change where it goes after that.

My point being if the hands were not in position after impact, were they traveling as fast as possible at impact. I not trying to change what has already happened in the swing, but I am trying to learn from it.

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The hands, by way of forearm rotation, turn the barrel rather than pulling on the knob by way of lead arm's connection to the lead shoulder's rotation. This latter method is simply bat drag. Waiting for the barrel to come around until the hands/arms change direction is a slow process and drags the bat.

All the good hitters turn the barrel in their hands
at "go". The technique is counter-intuitive, in that they actually send the barrel rearward instead of toward the ball.

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The each are different kinds of hitters....yet they all create the arc....and then move the arc in front of the ball.

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Originally posted by Chameleon:


This player starts his barrel arc identical on each swing. One of the pitches is up. Two are down. Notice how after the barrel arc is begun, he adjusts the arc for the low pitch.......one of which he hit out of the park.

If you need to, save the clips and play them frame by frame in Quicktime. It is very noticeable.

And...

Check out the arc these Japanese players create. They each are different kinds of hitters....yet they all create the arc....and then move the arc in front of the ball.



Also, notice the upright nature of their spine. This is very important. Not completely upright...but not tilted over either. Athletic leaning toward upright.

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Originally posted by BlueDog:
The torquing and untorquing of the handle of the bat between the hands happens well before ball contact......

"The hinge angle of the wrist needs to be held until ball contact......"

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Originally posted by Chameleon:
I don't like your terminology deemax but I think I hear what you're saying. The part where you said the barrel for a righty goes toward right center (lefty leftcenter) is what clarified your position for me. That is absolutely true and can only be done properly with the hands.

The hands, by way of forearm rotation, turn the barrel rather than pulling on the knob by way of lead arm's connection to the lead shoulder's rotation. This latter method is simply bat drag. Waiting for the barrel to come around until the hands/arms change direction is a slow process and drags the bat.

All the good hitters turn the barrel in their hands at "go". The technique is counter-intuitive, in that they actually send the barrel rearward instead of toward the ball.



Create the arc. Get the arc in front of the ball.

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That is why "knob to the ball" is a very dangerous cue. Knob to the ball, to most people means just that...pulling on the knob to take it toward the ball so the barrel comes around like a dog that has out run his leash. That movement combines the "powering of the swing" with the "adustment of the swing". It can not work.

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Originally posted by Chameleon:
If you are saying, that through the "jutting" upward of the lead elbow, the hands remain out over the plate, they fight the body's rotation, they fight being pulled out of the zone, they do not take a hard right (lefty batter) or hard left (righty batter) so the already arcing barrel can hit the ball, then we agree. And if you are saying that the hands will take the already arcing barrel to the ball and in so doing will move outside for an outside pitch or pull in for an inside pitch, I agree.

IF, however, you are saying the swing is "powered by" the action (arms and body's rotation) that takes the knob to the ball, I couldn't disagree more.

Power comes from one area (actually two; hips and hands) and adjustments come from another (arms). Combining them is what poor hitters do.

That is why "knob to the ball" is a very dangerous cue. Knob to the ball, to most people means just that...pulling on the knob to take it toward the ball so the barrel comes around like a dog that has out run his leash. That movement combines the "powering of the swing" with the "adustment of the swing". It can not work.

What direction is the first movement of the barrel in each of those clips I posted? Torquing the handle in that direction will be accompanied by elbow lowering. Elbow lowering by itself will not guarantee the proper barrel direction at "go". See the amateur in the Bonds clip.

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I know that my swing does the same thing that Bonds and Gwynn's swing does.

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Originally posted by deemax:
micmister

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I know that my swing does the same thing that Bonds and Gwynn's swing does.

Please post a clip so we can see how to duplicate Bonds and Gwynns swing.

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Originally posted by deemax:

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That is why "knob to the ball" is a very dangerous cue. Knob to the ball, to most people means just that...pulling on the knob to take it toward the ball so the barrel comes around like a dog that has out run his leash. That movement combines the "powering of the swing" with the "adustment of the swing". It can not work.

While watching college hitters practice this approach (knob to the ball) I noticed "the hard left hand turn by righties." The result was that thier best bolts were pulled foul, and what was put into play was a defecting blow (a slice). The coach that I worked with was big on creating the best angle of attack (In regards to the barells action to and through the ball). This was the opposite of what thier college coaches had taught them (knob to the ball). Im not a fan of the cue "knob to the ball", what do you feel would be a better que in regards to what should happen at go?

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Originally posted by baseballpapa:
I think there is a punch before contact with the wrists (hands). Look back at the frames, the bat is close to the back shoulder at initiation and is driven late into contact with the wrists.

However, I think it is time to junk the top hand/bottom hand arguement. Both hands initiate and both hands rip the barrel through. The delaying of the barrel causes more angular velocity of the barrel. The backwards press of the bat, the punch of the hips put everything in position to accomplish this.

I used to tell my kid to "delay your wrists." This resulted in a swing that did not "cast" but kept things tight until the wrists ripped through last minute. I also taught him the hands were a unit, both initiate and both rip the barrel through. This makes sense in chopping down trees with an ax and also in hitting a baseball.

I also ignore the teaching of wrist roll. If a player follows through, yet hits palm-up/palm-down, the wrists have to roll or break. This doesn't have to be taught.

By the way, the fastest swing is the swing on the inside pitch. The law of conservation of angular motion is demonstrated by the skater that brings his arms in to turn fast on the ice and extends his arms to slow up. Same with hitting. When a player hits and inside pitch, the elbows stay close to the body yet the hitter doesn't get to extension.

Most really long homeruns are pulled or straight away, but mostly pulled. Regardless of where the pitch is contacted delaying the wrists is important -- they are not just along for the ride.

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Originally posted by micmeister:

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Originally posted by deemax:
micmister

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I know that my swing does the same thing that Bonds and Gwynn's swing does.

Please post a clip so we can see how to duplicate Bonds and Gwynns swing.

If I can figure out how to do it, I will post a video of my son. With the swing I taught him, he hit 3 balls in one game over 360' when he was 14 years old. At the time he weighed 135 pounds and was 5' 6" tall. His 1st game of High School ball (which was in a J.V. game), he hit a ball 380' against a 87 MPH fastball and he still only weighed 145 pounds. You can't do that and not have early and late batspeed at his size.

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Originally posted by Chameleon:

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Originally posted by micmeister:

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Originally posted by deemax:
micmister

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I know that my swing does the same thing that Bonds and Gwynn's swing does.

Please post a clip so we can see how to duplicate Bonds and Gwynns swing.

If I can figure out how to do it, I will post a video of my son. With the swing I taught him, he hit 3 balls in one game over 360' when he was 14 years old. At the time he weighed 135 pounds and was 5' 6" tall. His 1st game of High School ball (which was in a J.V. game), he hit a ball 380' against a 87 MPH fastball and he still only weighed 145 pounds. You can't do that and not have early and late batspeed at his size.

Actually, I'd rather see your swing.....the one like Bonds and Gwynn.

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Originally posted by micmeister:

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Originally posted by deemax:
micmister

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I know that my swing does the same thing that Bonds and Gwynn's swing does.

Please post a clip so we can see how to duplicate Bonds and Gwynns swing.

If I can figure out how to do it, I will post a video of my son. With the swing I taught him, he hit 3 balls in one game over 360' when he was 14 years old. At the time he weighed 135 pounds and was 5' 6" tall. His 1st game of High School ball (which was in a J.V. game), he hit a ball 380' against a 87 MPH fastball and he still only weighed 145 pounds. You can't do that and not have early and late batspeed at his size.