Hate to rain on the parade, but unless you have an MRI you can never be exactly sure what it is. If ins covers it get an mri end of story.
Let's peel the onion, sort of speak, on this.
The most common cause of tendonitis is overuse.
Most all agree, one really does not know what to expect, until the eyes are on it. Even MRI's are sometimes non-conclusive. But the knife rarely lies.
I must have tendonitis all over this bad bod.
It's cause? All age-related changes. Yet no-one can entirely explain it. The best explanation I have heard is due to changes in the blood vessels that supply nutrition to the tendons. This is called tendonitis. It literally means inflammation of the tendon. QED
With age, the tendons loose their elasticity and ability to glide as smoothly as they used to, and thus the elders are prone to developing symptoms of tendonitis. What color pill is that?
The most common cause of tendonitis is overuse.
Most all agree, one really does not know what to expect, until the eyes are on it. Even MRI's are sometimes non-conclusive. But the knife rarely lies.
I must have tendonitis all over this bad bod.
It's cause? All age-related changes. Yet no-one can entirely explain it. The best explanation I have heard is due to changes in the blood vessels that supply nutrition to the tendons. This is called tendonitis. It literally means inflammation of the tendon. QED
With age, the tendons loose their elasticity and ability to glide as smoothly as they used to, and thus the elders are prone to developing symptoms of tendonitis. What color pill is that?
quote:Originally posted by TPM:
Chronic tendinitous can cause more issues...
...If not treated properly more problems may here may be a problem causing the tendinitous which could be mechanical in nature.
....My son has had two bouts with tendinitous, a
Tendinitous should be considered serious and treated accordingly.....
JMO.
I agree it should be treated seriously,but what does that mean? How do you treat it? Right now he is not throwing with the pitchers just doing the normal posistion player work. Someone suggested cross tendon massage. I do know this that when he lays his arm on the table he can't extend it to a full 180 he is that tight short or whatever.As I said he really tries to stretch well but we are running out of options I guess,it just seems there would be something that we could do to remedy this,but maybe not. also I now live in Minnesota.Thanks.
Take care of the problem before it affects his shoulder. An elbow injury can change mechanics which in turn can damage other areas. Rest, physical therapy, bandwork and physical were most effective.
quote:Originally posted by scissorbill:
I guess,it just seems there would be something that we could do to remedy this,but maybe not. also I now live in Minnesota.Thanks.
OMG
Tendinitis is an inflammation or irritation of the tendon, a thick cord that attaches bone to muscle.
What Causes Tendinitis?
Tendinitis is most often caused by repetitive, minor impact on the affected area, or from a sudden more serious injury.
There are many activities that can cause Tendinitis, including:
Gardening
Raking
Carpentry
Shoveling
Painting
Scrubbing
Tennis
Golf
Skiing
Throwing and pitching
Incorrect posture at work or home or poor stretching or conditioning before exercise or playing sports also increases a person's risk.
Related Tendonitis Terms
patellar, relief, treatment, knee, biceps, de Quervain's, tennis elbow, symptoms
An abnormal or poorly placed bone or joint (such as length differences in your legs or arthritis in a joint) that stresses soft-tissue structures
Stresses from other conditions, such as rheumatoid arthritis, gout, psoriatic arthritis, thyroid disorders, or unusual medication reactions
Occasionally an infection can cause Tendinitis.
Who Gets Tendinitis?
Anyone can get Tendinitis, but it is more common in adults, especially those over 40 years of age. As tendons age they tolerate less stress, are less elastic, and are easier to tear.
Where Does Tendinitis Occur?
Tendinitis can occur in almost any area of the body where a tendon connects a bone to a muscle. The most common places are:
Base of the thumb
Elbow
Shoulder
Hip
Knee
Achilles tendon
What Are the Symptoms of Tendinitis?
The symptoms of Tendinitis include:
Pain at the site of the tendon and surrounding area. Pain may be a gradual buildup or sudden and severe, especially if calcium deposits are present.
Loss of motion in the shoulder, called "adhesive capsulitis" or frozen shoulder.
How Can I Avoid Tendinitis?
When performing activities:
Take it slow at first. Gradually build up your activity level.
Use limited force and limited repetitions.
Stop if unusual pain occurs. Do something else. Try again later and if pain recurs, stop that activity for the day.
How Is Tendinitis Treated?
Initial treatment includes:
Avoiding activities that aggravate the problem
Resting the injured area
Icing the area the day of the injury (24 hrs of ice, and if available, e-stem)
Taking over-the-counter anti-inflammatory medicines (da blue pill)
If the condition does not improve in a week, see your doctor or PT. You may need more advanced treatments, including:
Corticosteroid injections. Corticosteroids (often called " steroids") are often used because they work quickly to decrease the inflammation and pain.
("Rooster Shots for Knees are available and sometimes work but $$$$)
Physical therapy. This is very beneficial, especially for a "frozen shoulder." Physical therapy includes understanding and performing a series of ranges of motion exercises. Working the acceleration and deacceleration muscles and tendons of the arm, elbow & shoulder. Splinting too (thumb, forearm, bands). I highly recommend these guys, expecially the ones with the PT. O.C.S after their name! I see and recommend one in Maryland if located there!
Surgery. This is only rarely needed for severe problems not responding to other treatments.
quote:Originally posted by scissorbill:
I agree it should be treated seriously,but what does that mean? How do you treat it? Right now he is not throwing with the pitchers just doing the normal posistion player work. Someone suggested cross tendon massage. I do know this that when he lays his arm on the table he can't extend it to a full 180 he is that tight short or whatever.As I said he really tries to stretch well but we are running out of options I guess,it just seems there would be something that we could do to remedy this,but maybe not. also I now live in Minnesota.Thanks.
Besides overuse, pitchers poor mechanics probably contribute also.
First time was going up to the field practicing a knuckleball someone "taught" him, then using it throughout travel summer. Shut down for two months, PT and a rehab pitching program.
Second time, one bad ankle sprain in february and one in july. Shot of cortinson and shut down, PT, conditioning excercises, correction in mechanics and then slow rehab innings.
I agree with Bear's OMG, this is a common occurance for adults
( I think my whole body has tendinitous). In the case of a pitcher, often treatment is just bandaid in nature, and pitcher continues to pitch, which can lead to greater problems later on.
If your son has an issue for more than a week about anything, see a doctor.
The best remedy is to NOT return to the way he was throwing previously (outside of vertical) and start throwing (inside of vertical) with pronated (thumb down) drives and releases. Then you will see all the elbow problems disappear.
UPDATE on this kid.
This kid got an MRI last week and they finally let the family know today what the results are.
Partially torn UCL. The doctor is going to get him into the best Tommy John surgeon in Louisville (not sure of his name) for a second opinion in a couple of days.
My question to you guys is - this doctor said he could still play the field and hit because it won't get worse overall and I was wondering if others who have had this have a doctor tell them this?
I told his mom I'm not going to have him throw any until he gets the second opinion.
I really don't want him to throw and tear it completely and hurt him any further. As I have said before this is my first elbow injury and I don't want to make it worse.
Thanks
This kid got an MRI last week and they finally let the family know today what the results are.
Partially torn UCL. The doctor is going to get him into the best Tommy John surgeon in Louisville (not sure of his name) for a second opinion in a couple of days.
My question to you guys is - this doctor said he could still play the field and hit because it won't get worse overall and I was wondering if others who have had this have a doctor tell them this?
I told his mom I'm not going to have him throw any until he gets the second opinion.
I really don't want him to throw and tear it completely and hurt him any further. As I have said before this is my first elbow injury and I don't want to make it worse.
Thanks
I've posted this before but I'll post it again----a little story about my at-the-time rising high school senior. He was rehabbing his torn labrum to see if rehab would prevent surgery. The kindly doctor told him that he knew it was killing my son to not play baseball, so he was going to allow him to hit only, no throwing.
After being out for most of 3 months, my son played in a Babe Ruth league as the DH or EH. He finally got his swing back (he was a little rusty) when he got hit by a pitch--which broke his two wrist bones--which delayed the shoulder surgery by 8 weeks.
It was during the course of the shoulder rehab that the doctor determined that the wrist hadn't healed---and the long rehab to try to prevent wrist surgery----and finally, on the day of the high school try-outs at the end of February, a full EIGHT months after the break, he had surgery to repair the cartilage which had torn when he was hit by that pitch. He was out for his senior year, and he just started throwing again...due to an additional injury in August which required an additional surgery before Christmas.
Yes, it was freaky. But freaky things happen. I wish the doctor wasn't so considerate and had been much tougher on him to just be patient and rehab the shoulder.....he would have played his senior year and would have been able to play this year.
I'd advise your player to wait for the second opinion/diagnosis and chill.
After being out for most of 3 months, my son played in a Babe Ruth league as the DH or EH. He finally got his swing back (he was a little rusty) when he got hit by a pitch--which broke his two wrist bones--which delayed the shoulder surgery by 8 weeks.
It was during the course of the shoulder rehab that the doctor determined that the wrist hadn't healed---and the long rehab to try to prevent wrist surgery----and finally, on the day of the high school try-outs at the end of February, a full EIGHT months after the break, he had surgery to repair the cartilage which had torn when he was hit by that pitch. He was out for his senior year, and he just started throwing again...due to an additional injury in August which required an additional surgery before Christmas.
Yes, it was freaky. But freaky things happen. I wish the doctor wasn't so considerate and had been much tougher on him to just be patient and rehab the shoulder.....he would have played his senior year and would have been able to play this year.
I'd advise your player to wait for the second opinion/diagnosis and chill.
Coach,
Know of a few players who have trouble with the ligament but due to just being a position player the surgery can be postponed and recover for position players is short. Pujols is facing that now but will put off surgery until end of season, unless he has to have it sooner. If the doctor made that desicion and he has no pain, then that would be his choice to follow the doctors orders.
I am just amazed at the increase in incidence of young pitchers who reguire TJS these days.
Can you give us an idea on the player, like if he was one who threw too many pitches in an outing, if he threw too many innings when younger, etc?
This is really good information that may help parents to understand what causes the injury and what changes they may have to make for their young pitchers to avoid future issues.
Thanks.
Know of a few players who have trouble with the ligament but due to just being a position player the surgery can be postponed and recover for position players is short. Pujols is facing that now but will put off surgery until end of season, unless he has to have it sooner. If the doctor made that desicion and he has no pain, then that would be his choice to follow the doctors orders.
I am just amazed at the increase in incidence of young pitchers who reguire TJS these days.
Can you give us an idea on the player, like if he was one who threw too many pitches in an outing, if he threw too many innings when younger, etc?
This is really good information that may help parents to understand what causes the injury and what changes they may have to make for their young pitchers to avoid future issues.
Thanks.
coach
my experience with a torn ucl is,it usually only causes real pain with a hard throw or fastball. you can hit with out a problem. as a matter of fact it was said to us if you don't want/need to throw a ball you don't need tj to lead a normal life. i think my son was golfing within 8 weeks, was cleared to hit before he could throw.
i'm with you i wouldn't have him throw knowing it's torn. i couldn't live with myself.
my experience with a torn ucl is,it usually only causes real pain with a hard throw or fastball. you can hit with out a problem. as a matter of fact it was said to us if you don't want/need to throw a ball you don't need tj to lead a normal life. i think my son was golfing within 8 weeks, was cleared to hit before he could throw.
i'm with you i wouldn't have him throw knowing it's torn. i couldn't live with myself.
Thanks all, this has been a pretty frustrating season and this just sets it off. He is a great kid with a great future. He is our stud on the mound and is a sophomore in the mid 80's with control and junk. In my 15 years of coaching high school he is the best pitcher ever been around.
I don't think he was really overthrown that much when he was younger and I got him when he was a 7th grader. He really wasn't consider a great pitching prospect when he was younger (little league). He had to throw a bullpen when he was in 7th grade and for some reason I caught him. At that point he really impressed me so we upped his prep. I feel we didn't overthrow him in freshman / JV games because he pitched about once a week and played the field the rest.
He started going to a place in a local town to get private instruction. They altered his mechanics a little bit but nothing major. When we started preseason practice we spent a lot of time with his new mechanics and trying to get them down. His biggest problem with his mechanics was he landed on a stiff front leg and stayed straight up.
Before the season started he got his mechanics down and started looking good. First game of the season it was bottom of the third and he was at around 35 pitches and he hurt it. We were going to cap him at 65 pitches for that game and increase him each outing. His mechanics that game were all over the place. He would go back and forth from good mechanics to bad mechanics.
He has never had arm trouble in the time I have had him so I think it was more of a freak accident sped up with his mechanics problems.
I don't think he was really overthrown that much when he was younger and I got him when he was a 7th grader. He really wasn't consider a great pitching prospect when he was younger (little league). He had to throw a bullpen when he was in 7th grade and for some reason I caught him. At that point he really impressed me so we upped his prep. I feel we didn't overthrow him in freshman / JV games because he pitched about once a week and played the field the rest.
He started going to a place in a local town to get private instruction. They altered his mechanics a little bit but nothing major. When we started preseason practice we spent a lot of time with his new mechanics and trying to get them down. His biggest problem with his mechanics was he landed on a stiff front leg and stayed straight up.
Before the season started he got his mechanics down and started looking good. First game of the season it was bottom of the third and he was at around 35 pitches and he hurt it. We were going to cap him at 65 pitches for that game and increase him each outing. His mechanics that game were all over the place. He would go back and forth from good mechanics to bad mechanics.
He has never had arm trouble in the time I have had him so I think it was more of a freak accident sped up with his mechanics problems.
coach2709,
When they get over 80 mph they get more vulnerable to UCL problems and sometimes the best mechanics in the world won't make a difference. Just a fact of life. There's a lot of mlb pitchers who have stiff landing legs.
As far as playing a position and saying that won't cause further damage it really depends on the goal for his future. If he wants to pitch in the future and the diagnosis is correct then he needs to shut down for 7 or 8 weeks and come back very, very gradually almost as slowly as coming back from TJ surgery or he needs to get the surgery. I don't agree that he can't do further damage playing a position if there's a chance he'll be making hard throws from that position. There have been plenty of position players who have torn their UCLs. DH would be OK but not playing a position unless he's rehabbed fully.
Generally they'll recommend taking a conservative approach because they can always do the surgery later. If he only wants to be a position player in the future then he can probably rest it a while and then go ahead and play. The reality is that partial UCL tears typically heal with scar tissue and the likelihood of retearing it is fairly high especially if he pitches in the future.
When you say he has junk, was he throwing a slider? Those tend to be pretty hard on the UCL. If a pitcher throws a hard "curve" I recommend gunning them to see what the diffential is between their fastball and their breaking ball. I know of a kid who rehabbed a partial UCL tear going into his sophmore season. This season as a junior during the spring break tournament he threw 3 innings of "curves" one day and then came back the next day and did the same thing. His fastball was ineffective so the coach called for curves and he threw them. About 80% "curves" each day. Throwing that many curves on consecutive days would be risky, but I had a gun on him and while his fastball was 78-79, his "curve" was 73-74. In other words, he was throwing a slider not a curve. That was more than risky. I'd say his only hope of not tearing his UCL further is the fact that his fastball velocity has gone down since last season rather than up. It looks to me like he pronates excessively to protect the UCL when he throws his fastball and has lost velocity and command of the pitch as a result.
It is interesting to speculate about this but your player needs to listen to the doctors. The only thing you can do is make sure he lets the doctors know what his goals are relative to baseball so they can take that into account in determining the best course to take with him relative to conservative treatment or surgery.
When they get over 80 mph they get more vulnerable to UCL problems and sometimes the best mechanics in the world won't make a difference. Just a fact of life. There's a lot of mlb pitchers who have stiff landing legs.
As far as playing a position and saying that won't cause further damage it really depends on the goal for his future. If he wants to pitch in the future and the diagnosis is correct then he needs to shut down for 7 or 8 weeks and come back very, very gradually almost as slowly as coming back from TJ surgery or he needs to get the surgery. I don't agree that he can't do further damage playing a position if there's a chance he'll be making hard throws from that position. There have been plenty of position players who have torn their UCLs. DH would be OK but not playing a position unless he's rehabbed fully.
Generally they'll recommend taking a conservative approach because they can always do the surgery later. If he only wants to be a position player in the future then he can probably rest it a while and then go ahead and play. The reality is that partial UCL tears typically heal with scar tissue and the likelihood of retearing it is fairly high especially if he pitches in the future.
When you say he has junk, was he throwing a slider? Those tend to be pretty hard on the UCL. If a pitcher throws a hard "curve" I recommend gunning them to see what the diffential is between their fastball and their breaking ball. I know of a kid who rehabbed a partial UCL tear going into his sophmore season. This season as a junior during the spring break tournament he threw 3 innings of "curves" one day and then came back the next day and did the same thing. His fastball was ineffective so the coach called for curves and he threw them. About 80% "curves" each day. Throwing that many curves on consecutive days would be risky, but I had a gun on him and while his fastball was 78-79, his "curve" was 73-74. In other words, he was throwing a slider not a curve. That was more than risky. I'd say his only hope of not tearing his UCL further is the fact that his fastball velocity has gone down since last season rather than up. It looks to me like he pronates excessively to protect the UCL when he throws his fastball and has lost velocity and command of the pitch as a result.
It is interesting to speculate about this but your player needs to listen to the doctors. The only thing you can do is make sure he lets the doctors know what his goals are relative to baseball so they can take that into account in determining the best course to take with him relative to conservative treatment or surgery.
Coach 2709:
Reading this post was deja vu for me. It brought back memories from over two years ago with my son. Same scenario of a hard throwing high school pitcher who stopped after throwing a pitch, called his coach out and asked to be taken out because of a “different” pain in his inner elbow. We also went to various doctors who said everything from a stretched bicep muscle to some other wrong misdiagnosis. As someone else on this post stated, the MRI finally showed a UCL tear. For anyone else who experiences a potential UCL problem, get the MRI.
As far as your player continuing to play, my son also had to decide, forget the season and immediately have TJ surgery, or not pitch and continue to play another position. My son decided to play out the season but in hindsight, I think he realized it was mistake. I guess that is a decision your player’s family will have to make. Whether to have the TJ surgery if he is serious with his baseball career or not to have it will be a question he and his family will have to decide. Waiting to have the surgery, especially if he is an underclassman, only prolongs his recover in my opinion from living through almost the same situation.
I would tell your player that if he decides to have the surgery, to find the best surgeon who is experienced with this operation, to follow the prescribed rehabilitation program to the letter, and also be positive about the results. You can tell him his pitching career is not over if the surgery and rehab. program is done correctly.
This June will be two years since my son had the surgery. Yes it was an emotional ride, but I also recently watched on a radar gun his fastball be clocked at 92 mph while pitching for a D1 college.
Good luck for whatever your player choices.
Reading this post was deja vu for me. It brought back memories from over two years ago with my son. Same scenario of a hard throwing high school pitcher who stopped after throwing a pitch, called his coach out and asked to be taken out because of a “different” pain in his inner elbow. We also went to various doctors who said everything from a stretched bicep muscle to some other wrong misdiagnosis. As someone else on this post stated, the MRI finally showed a UCL tear. For anyone else who experiences a potential UCL problem, get the MRI.
As far as your player continuing to play, my son also had to decide, forget the season and immediately have TJ surgery, or not pitch and continue to play another position. My son decided to play out the season but in hindsight, I think he realized it was mistake. I guess that is a decision your player’s family will have to make. Whether to have the TJ surgery if he is serious with his baseball career or not to have it will be a question he and his family will have to decide. Waiting to have the surgery, especially if he is an underclassman, only prolongs his recover in my opinion from living through almost the same situation.
I would tell your player that if he decides to have the surgery, to find the best surgeon who is experienced with this operation, to follow the prescribed rehabilitation program to the letter, and also be positive about the results. You can tell him his pitching career is not over if the surgery and rehab. program is done correctly.
This June will be two years since my son had the surgery. Yes it was an emotional ride, but I also recently watched on a radar gun his fastball be clocked at 92 mph while pitching for a D1 college.
Good luck for whatever your player choices.
Youreout,
I really enjoyed your post and totally agree with your statements. My son is in his 10th month of Tommy John rehab, and yes the decisions can be hard to make. Also would like to tell everyone that after tearing your ucl that throwing a baseball should not be your only concern. I know they say if your not throwing a ball 100% you can probably keep playing a different position or just dh. In my sons case he had never had any arm problems before the tear. We were first told to rest then start throwing easy (before surgery). After about a month and a half Andrew started throwing easy and gradually stepped it up. The first time he swung a bat he got a severe pain in his elbow. What we found out was that when you tear your ucl you also have to be very carefull that you don't do damage to the nerve that's in your elbow(can't remember the nerve's name). When Andrew got the TJ surgery they said that this nerve was very irratated so they also moved it to prevent further problems. He told us later that he was more afraid of that first swing then he was of his first throw. When it comes to your elbow I would be really causcous about doing any further damage before getting it fixed.
JMO
Banditsbb
I really enjoyed your post and totally agree with your statements. My son is in his 10th month of Tommy John rehab, and yes the decisions can be hard to make. Also would like to tell everyone that after tearing your ucl that throwing a baseball should not be your only concern. I know they say if your not throwing a ball 100% you can probably keep playing a different position or just dh. In my sons case he had never had any arm problems before the tear. We were first told to rest then start throwing easy (before surgery). After about a month and a half Andrew started throwing easy and gradually stepped it up. The first time he swung a bat he got a severe pain in his elbow. What we found out was that when you tear your ucl you also have to be very carefull that you don't do damage to the nerve that's in your elbow(can't remember the nerve's name). When Andrew got the TJ surgery they said that this nerve was very irratated so they also moved it to prevent further problems. He told us later that he was more afraid of that first swing then he was of his first throw. When it comes to your elbow I would be really causcous about doing any further damage before getting it fixed.
JMO
Banditsbb
Just give everyone another update on my guy.
Between the initial doctor's appointment and the second opinion we let him DH but removed him once or twice because a swing would hurt his elbow. We kept ice on it and he wore a compression sleeve because he said it made it feel better.
Once he got the second opinion he and his family decided to have the surgery. He went to Birmingham Alabama and let Dr. Andrews do the surgery. He had it yesterday (Thursday May 1) and his mom said it went well.
So he will get started on rehab when he can.
Between the initial doctor's appointment and the second opinion we let him DH but removed him once or twice because a swing would hurt his elbow. We kept ice on it and he wore a compression sleeve because he said it made it feel better.
Once he got the second opinion he and his family decided to have the surgery. He went to Birmingham Alabama and let Dr. Andrews do the surgery. He had it yesterday (Thursday May 1) and his mom said it went well.
So he will get started on rehab when he can.
bandits,
Usually the Ulnar nerve.
Usually the Ulnar nerve.