I know that there is an infinate amount of answers, but what should the position of the elbow be, specifically how much of an angle/how bent should it be? Any opinions would be greatfully apprecaited.
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Andrew-
You need to be more specific i.e., at what time in the throwing sequence.
You need to be more specific i.e., at what time in the throwing sequence.
in the power position
Andrew-
Please define "power position".
quote:in the power position
Please define "power position".
when both feet are on the ground after the stride. I thought that that was a "proper" term, but I guess I'm wrong.
Power position is the correct term.
90 degree and you should as part of your drills throw from the power position thrusting hard towards the plate with your hips coming through. It focuses on the hips rotating.
The towel drill is also from the power position.
90 degree and you should as part of your drills throw from the power position thrusting hard towards the plate with your hips coming through. It focuses on the hips rotating.
The towel drill is also from the power position.
Andrew-
You've described the "power position" exactly as it's been taught for years.
IMO that the forearm and the upper arm form an “L”, or an angle less than or equal to 90 deg at the elbow. The hand could be just inside the elbow.
You've described the "power position" exactly as it's been taught for years.
IMO that the forearm and the upper arm form an “L”, or an angle less than or equal to 90 deg at the elbow. The hand could be just inside the elbow.
I would go the other way, Cap. 90 degrees or just a little more (hand a littel outside the elbow). Any less and you are "shortening the stroke". E.g., there is less time for the arm to apply force to the ball.
And the height of the elbow should be such that it is level with the shoulders. If the elbow is low, you'll lose velocity. Too low & you can potentially do damage to the elbow.
Don't worry about the terminology, Andrew. There are so many different terms thrown around, I think Cap was just trying to be absolutely sure he understood your question.
And the height of the elbow should be such that it is level with the shoulders. If the elbow is low, you'll lose velocity. Too low & you can potentially do damage to the elbow.
Don't worry about the terminology, Andrew. There are so many different terms thrown around, I think Cap was just trying to be absolutely sure he understood your question.
quote:I would go the other way, Cap. 90 degrees or just a little more (hand a littel outside the elbow). Any less and you are "shortening the stroke". E.g., there is less time for the arm to apply force to the ball.
IMO that the forearm and upper arm form a 90 deg or slightly less angle at the elbow for two reasons.
1) For rotating throwers, the shoulder-to-shoulder complex will be rotating around through release….the upper arm will be an almost straight-line extension of the shoulder complex. The forearm/hand will be trailing the lead of the elbow. An elbow angle set at 90 deg or less will allow the hand/ball to be accelerated through an arc of at least 90 deg during forearm fly-out to full arm extension at ball release. This equates to a longer distance that force is applied to accelerate the ball. The hand starting outside the elbow equates to a smaller arc (or shorter distance) for acceleration during final forearm fly-out extension. IMO that time is irrelevant.
2) For catapult, linear type throwers, it’s the same thing. The body stops and faces square to the target, the elbow, upper arm and shoulders are on the same axis and square to the target, and the forearm is laid back. As the angle of the elbow gets closer to 90 deg to the axis of the shoulders and upper arm, the more arc the forearm will use for the final acceleration phase to full forearm fly-out to ball release.
Good post Cap'n! It's also my opinion, based on my own personal exeprience, that an angle > 90 degrees (i.e. hand outside the elbow) can place additional stress on the throwing shoulder. This opinion is NOT based on fact but on my own personal experiences.
Jason
Jason
Cap, if the hand is inside the elbow (e.g., closer to the head) in the high L position, that is a shorter arc. What is the center axis of the arc? It should be a vertical axis running through center of the torso (e.g., the head). The closer the hand to the head, the shorter the arc. Simple geometry.
quote:1) For rotating throwers, the shoulder-to-shoulder complex will be rotating around through release...2) For catapult, linear type throwers...
Would someone please explain the difference between these two styles to me?
Maybe I don't understand "simple geometry" but based on your argument wouldn't it then make sense just to have the arm completely extended?quote:Originally posted by Texan:
The closer the hand to the head, the shorter the arc. Simple geometry.
Jason
Were that the only factor considered, yes.
But that is not the only factor, of course. If the arm were fully extended it would be horizontal to the ground. Hardly a good position to launch from.
And one area where I was not clear, I am not talking be outside the elbow by a lot.
But for a rotational type delivery, having the hand closer to the head (less than 90 degrees) does shorten the arc. Just go through the motion, you can easily see that for yourself.
Does that help any?
But that is not the only factor, of course. If the arm were fully extended it would be horizontal to the ground. Hardly a good position to launch from.
And one area where I was not clear, I am not talking be outside the elbow by a lot.
But for a rotational type delivery, having the hand closer to the head (less than 90 degrees) does shorten the arc. Just go through the motion, you can easily see that for yourself.
Does that help any?
As I read your post again, Cap, I'm not sure we are referring to the same moment in time.
I am talking about the instant when the shoulders are still on a line from 2B to HP, at about the time of the stride foot landing. Often referred to as the "high L". From this point on, force is being applied to the ball in the direction of the pitch until release.
Seems that your description is at a later point in time, when the shoulders have rotated to square up.
I am talking about the instant when the shoulders are still on a line from 2B to HP, at about the time of the stride foot landing. Often referred to as the "high L". From this point on, force is being applied to the ball in the direction of the pitch until release.
Seems that your description is at a later point in time, when the shoulders have rotated to square up.
quote:Originally posted by Texan:
Cap, if the hand is inside the elbow (e.g., closer to the head) in the high L position, that is a shorter arc. What is the center axis of the arc?...
Not really. If the hand is inside the elbow and moving backward for forearm flyout, seems to me it's increasing the distance over which to apply force.
I think you are considering the wrong axis at this point in the delivery.
quote:But that is not the only factor, of course. If the arm were fully extended it would be horizontal to the ground. Hardly a good position to launch from.
Actually, the reality is that when many pitchers release the ball the forearm is pretty much horizontal to the ground.
This actually is a very efficient thing to do from the standpoint of mechanical efficiency (but problematic from the standpoint of injury prevention) because it maximizes the length of the lever arm.
F=MA. Constant mass and longer lever arm = more acceleration = more velocity.
quote:I think you are considering the wrong axis at this point in the delivery.
There are two (vertical) axes of rotation when you are talking about a conventional pitcher. The first vertical axis of rotation is the rotation of the shoulders around the spine. The second vertical axis of rotation is the rotation of the forearm around the elbow.
Howeve, I believe that increasing the amount that the forearm rotates around the elbow increases the risk of injury.
quote:Originally posted by Coach Chris:quote:But that is not the only factor, of course. If the arm were fully extended it would be horizontal to the ground. Hardly a good position to launch from.
Actually, the reality is that when many pitchers release the ball the forearm is pretty much horizontal to the ground.
This actually is a very efficient thing to do from the standpoint of mechanical efficiency (but problematic from the standpoint of injury prevention) because it maximizes the length of the lever arm.
F=MA. Constant mass and longer lever arm = more acceleration = more velocity.
I was not talking about at release, as I thought was very clear. I was talking about at the high L position.
quote:Originally posted by Linear:quote:Originally posted by Texan:
Cap, if the hand is inside the elbow (e.g., closer to the head) in the high L position, that is a shorter arc. What is the center axis of the arc?...
Not really. If the hand is inside the elbow and moving backward for forearm flyout, seems to me it's increasing the distance over which to apply force.
I think you are considering the wrong axis at this point in the delivery.
I will agree that I don't think we are all on the same page. This would be much easier to discuss out on the field, where we could see & demonstrate.
The high L position is before the shoulders start to rotate as they will eventually square up with home. That was the original poster's question and is what I am addressing.
quote:I am talking about the instant when the shoulders are still on a line from 2B to HP, at about the time of the stride foot landing. Often referred to as the "high L". From this point on, force is being applied to the ball in the direction of the pitch until release.
Actually, one of the problems with the traditional pitching motion is that in many cases force isn't just being applied to the target. Instead, a lot of the force is being applied in an arc with much of it facing 3B or the 3B side of the plate (this is because the elbow rapidly extends toward 3B more than Home Plate).
Only in the last moments before the ball is released is most of the force being applied directly toward the plate.
Texan,
If you don't understand the discussion just say so. I personally don't appreciate you stating your disagreement with Cap'n and then, when pressed to explain your position, pulling out the "much easier to discuss out on the field" card. You didn't seem to mind that we weren't "out on the field" when you originally stated your disagreement so why is it so important now?
I think Cap'n did a fine job of explaining his position. You on the other hand did not but here is another opportunity to do so. How does the hand being < 90 (i.e. inside the elbow) create a shorter arc? If having the hand at a > 90 degree angle (i.e. outside the elbow) is desirable why is having the arm completely extended not so desirable? How much more than 90 degrees is the right amount and how much is too much? Why?
One last question... In the rotating type delivery that Cap'n mentioned, in your opinion, what does the forearm do? More specifically how does it move as the pitcher rotates from the "L" to release?
Thanks in advance.
Jason
If you don't understand the discussion just say so. I personally don't appreciate you stating your disagreement with Cap'n and then, when pressed to explain your position, pulling out the "much easier to discuss out on the field" card. You didn't seem to mind that we weren't "out on the field" when you originally stated your disagreement so why is it so important now?
I think Cap'n did a fine job of explaining his position. You on the other hand did not but here is another opportunity to do so. How does the hand being < 90 (i.e. inside the elbow) create a shorter arc? If having the hand at a > 90 degree angle (i.e. outside the elbow) is desirable why is having the arm completely extended not so desirable? How much more than 90 degrees is the right amount and how much is too much? Why?
One last question... In the rotating type delivery that Cap'n mentioned, in your opinion, what does the forearm do? More specifically how does it move as the pitcher rotates from the "L" to release?
Thanks in advance.
Jason
Pardon me, Flipp. I guess I haven't reached your stage of perfection. 
In trying to better understand what Cap was talking about, I again re-read his post and all thes subsequent posts.
If we are talking the high L position, I still disagree. There, does that make your tender feelings feel better? Do you appreciate now?
I will state this again, simply. Maybe you can follow.
AT THE POINT OF THE HIGH L:
The shoulders are aligned with 2B & HP.
The upper arm is extended back toward 2B.
The upper arm is parallel to the ground.
The upper arm is aligned with the shoulders.
From this point, assume the forearm is 90 degrees to the upper arm. That is, perpindicular to the ground.
There, are you with me so far?
Now, demonstrate this position to yourself. Strike the pose described.
Next, move your hand toward your head (as proposed by Cap).
Is your hand closer to HP, or farther? Of course it is closer. So from this position to release, there is less time for the force to act on the ball.
Is your hand closer to the vertical axis of rotation (e.g., a vertical axis passing through the center of the body and the head), or farther? Of course it is closer. So the arc is shorter. So from this position to release, there is less time for the force to act on the ball.
Is that simple enough for you? Clear enough?
As to your question on having the upper arm parallel to the ground, try it. The answer will be self-evident.
You are most welcome.
In trying to better understand what Cap was talking about, I again re-read his post and all thes subsequent posts.
If we are talking the high L position, I still disagree. There, does that make your tender feelings feel better? Do you appreciate now?
I will state this again, simply. Maybe you can follow.
AT THE POINT OF THE HIGH L:
The shoulders are aligned with 2B & HP.
The upper arm is extended back toward 2B.
The upper arm is parallel to the ground.
The upper arm is aligned with the shoulders.
From this point, assume the forearm is 90 degrees to the upper arm. That is, perpindicular to the ground.
There, are you with me so far?
Now, demonstrate this position to yourself. Strike the pose described.
Next, move your hand toward your head (as proposed by Cap).
Is your hand closer to HP, or farther? Of course it is closer. So from this position to release, there is less time for the force to act on the ball.
Is your hand closer to the vertical axis of rotation (e.g., a vertical axis passing through the center of the body and the head), or farther? Of course it is closer. So the arc is shorter. So from this position to release, there is less time for the force to act on the ball.
Is that simple enough for you? Clear enough?
As to your question on having the upper arm parallel to the ground, try it. The answer will be self-evident.
You are most welcome.
Texan,
There is absolutely no need for the insults or the smart a$$ comments. I never said I was an expert. As a matter of fact I haven't even given a single opinion in this thread. I've simply asked questions. Questions you obviously have a problem answering directly.
Here's a clip I posted in a different thread that may (or may not) help this discussion: Clemens
Jason
There is absolutely no need for the insults or the smart a$$ comments. I never said I was an expert. As a matter of fact I haven't even given a single opinion in this thread. I've simply asked questions. Questions you obviously have a problem answering directly.
Here's a clip I posted in a different thread that may (or may not) help this discussion: Clemens
Jason
I'm glad you feel there is no need for insults and smart comments. Shame you didn't feel that insults were not appropriate when YOU made your last post.
I try to be nice & give another poster the benefit of the doubt, and how did you respond?
And if my last post was not direct enough for you, just say so. I notice you have not responded to the discussion in it.
I try to be nice & give another poster the benefit of the doubt, and how did you respond?
And if my last post was not direct enough for you, just say so. I notice you have not responded to the discussion in it.
My Two Cents...
I like the lead arm to be slightly extended, sorta like a birds wing, not straight but not 90 degrees either, somewhere in-between, and is comfortable to the pitcher. I think the lead arm(shoulder) should be very "slightly" pointing upward with the forearm on a slight slope downward so the glove pocket can point back, again comfortable for the pitcher. When the pitcher begins his movement toward home, the elbow is pulled into the side and the glove to the chest,stommack, to belt, area.
I like the lead arm to be slightly extended, sorta like a birds wing, not straight but not 90 degrees either, somewhere in-between, and is comfortable to the pitcher. I think the lead arm(shoulder) should be very "slightly" pointing upward with the forearm on a slight slope downward so the glove pocket can point back, again comfortable for the pitcher. When the pitcher begins his movement toward home, the elbow is pulled into the side and the glove to the chest,stommack, to belt, area.
quote:Originally posted by Texan:
...Is your hand closer to HP, or farther? Of course it is closer. So from this position to release, there is less time for the force to act on the ball.
The above is where your calculations fail......unless you push the ball instead of throw it.
The assumption is that at the high L position, the ball (and palm) are facing roughly toward SS. I am assuming that for both Cap's positioning as well as what I am describing.
So no, closer to the head is less time to act on the ball when it is being thrown.
So no, closer to the head is less time to act on the ball when it is being thrown.
What if the ball goes backward from there.
Then the second bagger better have catcher's gear on...
When your hands break from the set position after the leg lift your front arm should begin to reach a level at a striaght out position from your shoulder. The throwing arm depending on you type of motion should rotate down and backwards until you are in a load position. again the elbow level to the shoulder. If you took at broom stick across the back behind your neck on your shoulders ,the broom stick wolud pass across the shoulders and touch eache elbow. As you come forward the back throwing elbow stays at that level which is 90 degrees from the body and the front elbow drops down and is pulled back close to the body as a counter reaction to propel the throwing arm forward. There are lots of pictures that are clear on this and I follow the experts on this until Chris comes up with something to prove otherwise.
When you are in fully loaded position before coming forward your elbows are parallel to the shoulders. Doctor's order.
When you are in fully loaded position before coming forward your elbows are parallel to the shoulders. Doctor's order.
A true over hand pitcher gets his elbow way up.
A good shot of Jeff Francis Colorado Rockies $1.8 M signing bonus. Shows this well.
http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Baseball/Canada/home.html
http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Baseball/Canada/home.html
quote:Next, move your hand toward your head (as proposed by Cap). Is your hand closer to HP, or farther? Of course it is closer. So from this position to release, there is less time for the force to act on the ball.
Actually, there is more time for force to be applied (but not all toward Home Plate).
If your hand is in the L (elbow bent 90 degrees), then your elbow will extend those 90 degrees as your shoulders turn. If your hand is closer to the head (say elbow is bent 45 degrees) then your elbow will extend those 135 degrees (90+45).
BTW, it is this rapid 90 to 135 degree extension of the elbow that strains the UCL and/or causes bone chips in the elbow.
quote:As you come forward the back throwing elbow stays at that level which is 90 degrees from the body and the front elbow drops down and is pulled back close to the body as a counter reaction to propel the throwing arm forward. There are lots of pictures that are clear on this and I follow the experts on this until Chris comes up with something to prove otherwise.
This is generally correct. Typically, the 90 degree angle between the torso and the upper arm is maintained.
If the elbow goes higher off the ground, then that is because the person is tilting their hips and/or tilting in their lower back as they come around.
I think you guys are missing something critical that happens (and that most people don't realize happens until they see it in slow motion).
Assuming a pitcher starts at the High L (or High Cocked or High Guard or Power) position with the shoulders pointing at home plate, the upper arm at the level of and in line with the shoulders (90 degrees of abduction from the torso), the elbow at the level of the shoulders and in line with the shoulders, and the forearm vertical (elbow bent 90 degrees) this is what happens.
1. As the shoulders start to turn, the 90 degree angle between the upper arm and the torso is maintained. The 90 degree angle between the upper arm and the forearm is also maintained. However, the inertia of the forearm causes the forearm to lay (or bounce) back 90 degrees (so that both the upper arm and the forearm are both horizontal). Some people call this point the point of Maximum External Rotation (or MER).
2. This attitude is maintained until the rate at which the shoulders are rotating starts to decrease. At the moment two things happen. First, the shoulder starts to internally rotate 180 degrees so that the forearm goes from being horizontal and pointed back toward 2B to being horizontal and pointed forward toward home plate. At the same time, the elbow rapidly extends 90 degrees so that the upper arm and forearm are now in line.
It is the combination of rapid external rotation of the shoulder and rapid extension of the elbow that I talk about in step 2 that places so much load on the elbow.
Assuming a pitcher starts at the High L (or High Cocked or High Guard or Power) position with the shoulders pointing at home plate, the upper arm at the level of and in line with the shoulders (90 degrees of abduction from the torso), the elbow at the level of the shoulders and in line with the shoulders, and the forearm vertical (elbow bent 90 degrees) this is what happens.
1. As the shoulders start to turn, the 90 degree angle between the upper arm and the torso is maintained. The 90 degree angle between the upper arm and the forearm is also maintained. However, the inertia of the forearm causes the forearm to lay (or bounce) back 90 degrees (so that both the upper arm and the forearm are both horizontal). Some people call this point the point of Maximum External Rotation (or MER).
2. This attitude is maintained until the rate at which the shoulders are rotating starts to decrease. At the moment two things happen. First, the shoulder starts to internally rotate 180 degrees so that the forearm goes from being horizontal and pointed back toward 2B to being horizontal and pointed forward toward home plate. At the same time, the elbow rapidly extends 90 degrees so that the upper arm and forearm are now in line.
It is the combination of rapid external rotation of the shoulder and rapid extension of the elbow that I talk about in step 2 that places so much load on the elbow.
quote:A good shot of Jeff Francis Colorado Rockies $1.8 M signing bonus. Shows this well.
In this picture what you are seeing is the moment that the shoulders are starting to turn but are still mostly in line with a line running from Home Plate to 2B (you can see this by noticing how is he looking out the corner of his eyes at the plate). The inertia of the forearm is causing it to lay back/bounce backward 20 (of 90 or so total) degrees and the inertia of the ball in his hand is causing his wrist to bend backwards. His elbow is still bent 80 to 90 degrees and will maintain this angle until the rate at which his shoulders start to turn starts to decrease. At this point his elbow will extend those 90 to 100 degrees.
quote:Originally posted by Texan:
Then the second bagger better have catcher's gear on...
I agree with Flippj.....
Texan-
From this point on, force is being applied to the ball in the direction of the pitch until release is IMO, an inaccurate statement.
From the “L” position, the hand does not go forward; it, in essence, goes backward. This is a reaction of the rotational and forward movements of the whole body. The hand/forearm is then pulled toward the target with the elbow leading the way.
What you’re describing is a “push” to throw with minimal forearm layback, or slinging the forearm out to the side because the arm is late in relation to the rotation position of the shoulder complex.
External shoulder rotation begins when the forearm starts going up from the hand break. External shoulder rotation ends at maximum forearm layback. Final internal shoulder rotation begins after maximum external shoulder rotation. Final forward force is applied to the ball with the final internal shoulder rotation.
With rotational throwing, there is forearm fly-out.
The “lever arm” is made up of four sections; the hand which is pivoted at the wrist, the forearm which is pivoted at the elbow, the upper arm which is pivoted at the shoulder, and the shoulder-to-shoulder complex. Each section plays a key roll in the acceleration… the larger parts moving slower, but transferring their energy to the smaller parts…each transfer speeding up the next smaller section.
If the hand starts out closer to the ear (which is the same thing as being closer to the shoulder,) this will translate to the hand being closer to the axis of the rotation of the body. Shoulder-to-shoulder complex rotation is responsible for forearm layback (the major portion of external shoulder rotation), and if you are positioned over the body’s rotational axis looking down [on top of the thrower] when full forearm layback (or full external rotation of the shoulder) is achieved, you will see the shoulder-to-shoulder complex and upper arm as an almost straight line, with the forearm forming an angle at the elbow, to the shoulder-to-shoulder-to-upper arm straight line, of less than or equal to 90 degrees. This means that during the internal rotation phase of the shoulder (to release), the hand is required to travel a longer distance (via a longer arc the elbow to hand has to travel) to release point. This longer distance to release also means a longer distance to keep applying force to the ball. If the hand is outside the elbow at full forearm layback, the accelerating distance (via the elbow to hand arc) is reduced.
quote:I am talking about the instant when the shoulders are still on a line from 2B to HP, at about the time of the stride foot landing. Often referred to as the "high L". From this point on, force is being applied to the ball in the direction of the pitch until release.
From this point on, force is being applied to the ball in the direction of the pitch until release is IMO, an inaccurate statement.
From the “L” position, the hand does not go forward; it, in essence, goes backward. This is a reaction of the rotational and forward movements of the whole body. The hand/forearm is then pulled toward the target with the elbow leading the way.
What you’re describing is a “push” to throw with minimal forearm layback, or slinging the forearm out to the side because the arm is late in relation to the rotation position of the shoulder complex.
External shoulder rotation begins when the forearm starts going up from the hand break. External shoulder rotation ends at maximum forearm layback. Final internal shoulder rotation begins after maximum external shoulder rotation. Final forward force is applied to the ball with the final internal shoulder rotation.
quote:The closer the hand to the head, the shorter the arc.
With rotational throwing, there is forearm fly-out.
The “lever arm” is made up of four sections; the hand which is pivoted at the wrist, the forearm which is pivoted at the elbow, the upper arm which is pivoted at the shoulder, and the shoulder-to-shoulder complex. Each section plays a key roll in the acceleration… the larger parts moving slower, but transferring their energy to the smaller parts…each transfer speeding up the next smaller section.
If the hand starts out closer to the ear (which is the same thing as being closer to the shoulder,) this will translate to the hand being closer to the axis of the rotation of the body. Shoulder-to-shoulder complex rotation is responsible for forearm layback (the major portion of external shoulder rotation), and if you are positioned over the body’s rotational axis looking down [on top of the thrower] when full forearm layback (or full external rotation of the shoulder) is achieved, you will see the shoulder-to-shoulder complex and upper arm as an almost straight line, with the forearm forming an angle at the elbow, to the shoulder-to-shoulder-to-upper arm straight line, of less than or equal to 90 degrees. This means that during the internal rotation phase of the shoulder (to release), the hand is required to travel a longer distance (via a longer arc the elbow to hand has to travel) to release point. This longer distance to release also means a longer distance to keep applying force to the ball. If the hand is outside the elbow at full forearm layback, the accelerating distance (via the elbow to hand arc) is reduced.
Cap, the torso and shoulders are moving forward. It is not so much that the hand is moving backward, but rather that the torso and shoulders are going forward and leaving the hand behind.
Sideview slomo video will show that from the high L, the ball always has a velocity vector component toward the plate.
I still disagree on the arc length. The path is three dimensional curvelinear. I think that you may be looking at it only in two dimensions.
With the hand outside the elbow, the ball will be farther toward 2B when the hand and torso begin moving forward. Thus the distance over which the force can be applied is longer.
And no, I am not advocating nor describing pushing the ball.
Sideview slomo video will show that from the high L, the ball always has a velocity vector component toward the plate.
I still disagree on the arc length. The path is three dimensional curvelinear. I think that you may be looking at it only in two dimensions.
With the hand outside the elbow, the ball will be farther toward 2B when the hand and torso begin moving forward. Thus the distance over which the force can be applied is longer.
And no, I am not advocating nor describing pushing the ball.
