Ethics in High School Coaching

It doesn't step over the unwritten rules; it steps over the written rules.

"Yelling balk just as a pitcher is getting ready to pitch." Warning the first time, then I'm tossing, by rule.

"Last night, we had a coach who would call a timeout with 2 strikes on the batter just as the pitcher was getting ready to [pitch]." I'm not granting time if I know what's going on. The first time he may get a pass as sometimes things happen. After that, if I think it's for the purpose of causing a balk, see the above consequences.

This is in all rule sets.

I understand Matt13 but as I have said before "We never have umpires of your level in high school except on a rare case."  Let's be honest.  Just because it is a rule or in the rule book does not mean most high school umpires will call it or even know it.  They are lucky to call balls and strikes and get the easy calls right 75% of the time.  I see coaches yelling  balk all the time who are doing it to draw the balk not just to help the umpire with a clear one.  Never seen the warning in all my years.  The umpires last night just went through their deal and told our coach he has the right to call one offensive time out an inning. 

Matt13 posted:

It doesn't step over the unwritten rules; it steps over the written rules.

"Yelling balk just as a pitcher is getting ready to pitch." Warning the first time, then I'm tossing, by rule.

"Last night, we had a coach who would call a timeout with 2 strikes on the batter just as the pitcher was getting ready to [pitch]." I'm not granting time if I know what's going on. The first time he may get a pass as sometimes things happen. After that, if I think it's for the purpose of causing a balk, see the above consequences.

This is in all rule sets.

Thank you.  I would hope the opposing team's fans would then taunt the coach appropriately - maybe that song "nah nah nah na, nah nah nah na, hey hey hey, gooooood bye".

If I were a coach facing this guy, I'd probably get out my rule book, write down the appropriate sections and then bring it with me to the pre-game meeting - at which time I would politely outline my concerns and maybe reinforce this with a brief recap of his prior actions.  I would also maybe set up another video camera and have someone film the coach and hopefully capture some of the game action at the same time.  Maybe select one of my quicker pitchers for the game.  If he is quick enough to legally call time, make sure the fans heckle him with "bush league".  This would drive me crazy.

If the coach is yelling balk and it's well known that he does it, I'd have a play where the ball 'slips" just as my pitcher throws it.....if it happens to land in the proximity of the coach, then so be it      It's hard to believe that if this is a regular occurence somebody hasn't instructed your umpires about how to handle the situation better.  Oh, and the coach is a jacka$$  lol

So, your HS Coach hasn't gone over and told him to his face it is BS?  I'd be much less gracious.  If this is a conference school, we'd have it out at the coach's post season meeting where all the others can chime in.  If it is a non conference opponent, they would be off of our schedule.  I want to play the best programs and invariably they seem to have the best coaches.  

Things happen for a reason.  Respect the game and it will respect you.

We had a coach do that to a pitcher one time and the game was being broadcasted via the internet.  I calmly went to the umpire and told him, "When that coach does that again, and my pitcher reacts and loses a pitch into the hitters head, that parent will use this broadcast to file a lawsuit against you because your speech always involves, "Safety first."  

Never happened again.

Just a note for those that want to start to complain about me telling my player to do that.   I didn't.

It is a region game and he does it every game.  He says it is just like icing a kicker or calling timeout right before a free throw.  The umpires say that he gets a timeout every inning so they are obligated to grant it.  I agree with you guys.  I would not grant it.  But again it is part of sports.  it is like the coach yelling balk.  They always claim they thought he balked because.....    It is coaches playing mind games with kids which is wrong. 

I don't have a problem with student sections having fun with players as long as they don't curse or make threats.  But an adult has no business yelling at players or being a part of the student section.  Cheer for your team and even yell at the opposing coach when he does something.  Having been an umpire and official I don't even care if you holler at the officials, they are being paid and should ignore it as long as you don't curse or threaten.  But adults need to leave kids out of it.

PitchingFan, I think it's wrong and inappropriate, but unfortunately it happens.  

During my son's game last week the opposing coach instructed his baserunners to yell "Runner" loudly to try to bait the pitcher into a balk, or maybe try to get into the catcher's head.  It didn't work, so he switched tactics.  He started yelling to his batters "This pitcher is a joke, this is the worst pitching staff I've ever seen, it's batting practice, hit the ball!"  Of course this was in earshot of everyone.  All this from a coach at a Christian school (who also runs a travel ball organization) who had a 10+ run lead.  He's a real class act.

PitchingFan posted:

I have always been of the thought that adults should never speak to or yell at a player.  But the question comes should a coach ever use his position to try to get in a player's head.

Examples:  Icing a kicker or free throw shooter. 

Yelling balk just as a pitcher is getting ready to pitch.

Last night, we had a coach who would call a timeout with 2 strikes on the batter just as the pitcher was getting ready to pitcher.  He did it in 6 of the 7 innings.  Does it every game and every team in our region knows it is going to happen.  It is amusing how the different coaches deal with it.  Catholic school took a knee and prayed for him every time he did it, I mean every player on the field and every player/coach in the dugout.  One team just stands and stares at them with no one moving including the third baseman stands on the bag and the players come out of the dugout.  Our coach took it lighthearted and our guys played rock, paper, scissors while the dugout did rain delay tactics. 

Your thoughts?  Are these actions appropriate or does it step over the unwritten rules of baseball lines.  I believe players can do things to get in each others heads but I believe adults need to be adults.

PitchingFan, this is very important. 

GET ME THAT PRAYER!  I CAN USE IT DAILY!

Complain to your league director.  We got a softball team kicked out of their league in their first year in the league due to unsportsmanlike comments against other team's pitchers.  

Yelling balk, no that's wrong.  Taking a time out...that's a tactic that is legal.  There are a lot of things in baseball that are technically legal but morally questionable. 14u game, down by 2 with 2 outs...my son was told to get up to the plate and strike out as fast as possible because there were only 3 minutes left in playing time and we needed to start a new inning. Tactic that is legal, but morally questionable.

Smitty28 posted:

PitchingFan, I think it's wrong and inappropriate, but unfortunately it happens.  

During my son's game last week the opposing coach instructed his baserunners to yell "Runner" loudly to try to bait the pitcher into a balk, or maybe try to get into the catcher's head.  It didn't work, so he switched tactics.  He started yelling to his batters "This pitcher is a joke, this is the worst pitching staff I've ever seen, it's batting practice, hit the ball!"  Of course this was in earshot of everyone.  All this from a coach at a Christian school (who also runs a travel ball organization) who had a 10+ run lead.  He's a real class act.

The offense's action cannot cause a balk based on 3-3-1n - results same as Matt points out.  As for the other sportsmanship words 3-3-1f is fairly broad and would encompass directing words at or about the other team.  If a batter does something to attempt to draw a balk, there is 6-2-4d(1) which indicates that a batter calling time and a pitcher in some way that commits a balk based on that - the balk is ignored.  If during that same action the umpire doesn't grant time, the pitcher delivers, it is a strike regardless of where the ball is.  In addition, if the batter called time, stepped out of the box, and the pitcher delivered - you add another strike for violation of 7-3-1 (IOW: 2 strikes on 1 pitch). You want to see a coach change his tune regarding such BS tactics - hit him where it's going to hurt.

Sorry to those of you who have umpires that don't know [these] basic game management techniques.

Played against enough people that were edgy to know that it is all about getting guys off their game.  A chatty catcher is in the same vein.  Forget about the trash talk in basketball and football which is on a whole other level.

At least the old physical stuff has mostly been drummed out.  Rarely see 1st basemen getting spiked, or the really dirty stuff around 2nd base anymore.  Although a fake tag pops up from time to time and that can get people spun up pretty quick.

I do know that once the people outside the fence get involved in this kind of thing it can get heated pretty quickly. 

In the end beating the perps is the best medicine. 

Nothing like going through a handshake line after a W and tossing a box of cough drops to the guy and saying - throat must be sore from all the noise you made.  Actually did that to a youth travel coach who was famous for this kind of thing.  Nearly started a riot.  Had a great laugh being reminded of it by this string.

CaCO3Girl posted:

Yelling balk, no that's wrong.  Taking a time out...that's a tactic that is legal.  There are a lot of things in baseball that are technically legal but morally questionable. 14u game, down by 2 with 2 outs...my son was told to get up to the plate and strike out as fast as possible because there were only 3 minutes left in playing time and we needed to start a new inning. Tactic that is legal, but morally questionable.

If I'm coaching the team that is leading, then I'm going to be very careful about how I pitch to your son.  Probably don't want my pitcher throwing too much over the plate - and probably have to go out and give him a good 90 second pep talk.  If he gets two strikes against your son, I might have to bring in my closer.  Can't afford you son executing a quick KO by swing at pitches 3 feet outside.  Who knows, I might intentionally walk the kid and throw over to first a few times to keep him close (even though he's probably standing on the bag).

I've been in the stands a few times when we were leading and our coach does the mound visit to kill some time.  I usually try to sneak away quietly to avoid any immediate embarrassment.

2017LHPscrewball posted:

CaCO3Girl posted:

Yelling balk, no that's wrong.  Taking a time out...that's a tactic that is legal.  There are a lot of things in baseball that are technically legal but morally questionable. 14u game, down by 2 with 2 outs...my son was told to get up to the plate and strike out as fast as possible because there were only 3 minutes left in playing time and we needed to start a new inning. Tactic that is legal, but morally questionable.

If I'm coaching the team that is leading, then I'm going to be very careful about how I pitch to your son.  Probably don't want my pitcher throwing too much over the plate - and probably have to go out and give him a good 90 second pep talk.  If he gets two strikes against your son, I might have to bring in my closer.  Can't afford you son executing a quick KO by swing at pitches 3 feet outside.  Who knows, I might intentionally walk the kid and throw over to first a few times to keep him close (even though he's probably standing on the bag).

I've been in the stands a few times when we were leading and our coach does the mound visit to kill some time.  I usually try to sneak away quietly to avoid any immediate embarrassment.

Pitcher pitched VERY high balls, son swung the bat like he was out for a Sunday picnic.  He didn't want to swing at three straight bad pitches but he did....one I think he swung after the catcher already had the ball.  It was rather pathetic to watch, but he did the job the coach assigned.

hsbaseball101 posted:

Complain to your league director.  We got a softball team kicked out of their league in their first year in the league due to unsportsmanlike comments against other team's pitchers.  

Their AD is the Region representative  LOL

Umpires are starting to apply a rule called "verbal interference" if kids yell anything while players are in motion while making an "athletic move or play" in softball and baseball. They are doing it only at the lower levels in our high school league to improve conduct in hopes it transitions as the kids move up. They are not doing it every chance they get but primarily when plays are being made close to the opposition's bench. There is an element of safety attached to it as several kids have gotten distracted by yells and screams and run into fences (and each other). I am old school so I am on the fence about the rule but the yelling has gotten worse that the old "Noonan, Noonan" type "cheers" we used to do.

PitchingFan posted:

hsbaseball101 posted:

Complain to your league director.  We got a softball team kicked out of their league in their first year in the league due to unsportsmanlike comments against other team's pitchers.  

Their AD is the Region representative  LOL

well crap.  I actually have never heard taunting in boys basketball.  It's extremely extremely quiet., only girls basketball and softball.  This girls team were chanting in our girls faces while we had the ball, and it was a blowout.  Same deal with softball.  Lots of chanting (not negative taunting, just very annoying) even though they're up by 10+ runs.  

When my son was playing HS baseball we had a HC who would up his chatter as the pitcher went into his windup.  Things like, "hey Johnny take what they give you".  "Watch the pitcher", etc.  Nothing as obvious as "Balk" but he was pretty silent until the pitcher came set and then started his motion.  The volume level at which he yelled instructions across the field would increase as the pitcher moved from set into his pitching motion.

At some point some of our parents took it upon themselves to start yelling "Bush" at the coach.  Im not a fan of that as well, but it turned into a whole thing.  The coach would start up his chatter.  The pitch/play would be over and a few parents would start yelling "Bush".  Coach would turn and give them the evil eye and then go back to it.  

In my coaching days, we had a game where there was a time limit.  We were the home team and we down early but had chipped away to a one run deficit and the momentum was our way.   Time was running short and we were up with two outs and a batter with 2 strikes on him.  I really needed the player to strike out fast to get to the next inning (#9 hitter was not going to help).  I did not have to worry about it as a parent from the visiting crowd yelled “30 seconds coach.”  The opposing coach called a mound meeting and ran out the clock on us.

Yeah, you can see a lot of delay tactics in tournament ball (due to time constraints) which can be frustrating when mounting a comeback...

IEBSBL posted:

We had a coach do that to a pitcher one time and the game was being broadcasted via the internet.  I calmly went to the umpire and told him, "When that coach does that again, and my pitcher reacts and loses a pitch into the hitters head, that parent will use this broadcast to file a lawsuit against you because your speech always involves, "Safety first."  

Never happened again.

 

Just a note for those that want to start to complain about me telling my player to do that.   I didn't.

I imagine this sort of behavior gets around amongst players and other schools in the conference.  I would imagine a fair warning via social media from the players could send a clear message that "our dude that throws 90 is gonna bury one in the ribs of your best dude if your Coach acts like a child".  Just sayin', the players would take care of their Coach.  

MuskyShane posted:

In my coaching days, we had a game where there was a time limit.  We were the home team and we down early but had chipped away to a one run deficit and the momentum was our way.   Time was running short and we were up with two outs and a batter with 2 strikes on him.  I really needed the player to strike out fast to get to the next inning (#9 hitter was not going to help).  I did not have to worry about it as a parent from the visiting crowd yelled “30 seconds coach.”  The opposing coach called a mound meeting and ran out the clock on us.

It would just as bush to have the player purposely strike out to extend the game.  

Big assumption there on your part - hoping for a strikeout and asking/ordering one are two different things.  Nicely done.

real green posted:

MuskyShane posted:

In my coaching days, we had a game where there was a time limit.  We were the home team and we down early but had chipped away to a one run deficit and the momentum was our way.   Time was running short and we were up with two outs and a batter with 2 strikes on him.  I really needed the player to strike out fast to get to the next inning (#9 hitter was not going to help).  I did not have to worry about it as a parent from the visiting crowd yelled “30 seconds coach.”  The opposing coach called a mound meeting and ran out the clock on us.

It would just as bush to have the player purposely strike out to extend the game.  

Not really.  On the timed games, there is an element of clock management.  I've seen some really quick innings, especially with the visitors (on the losing side of the score) pitching.  Quick meatballs either called a strike or put into play.  If I'm down by 2 and already have two outs, I could see my team wanting a quick strikeout so as to get one more shot with 3 outs.  The timing thing is somewhat arbitrary at times and if it takes an intentional strikeout to stay alive, sometimes that is preferable to missing out by 30 seconds or so.

MuskyShane posted:

Big assumption there on your part - hoping for a strikeout and asking/ordering one are two different things.  Nicely done.

I didn't assume you did, simply stating asking a low percentage kid to strike out to extend a game and get to the top of the line up is bush in my opinion.  

real green posted:

MuskyShane posted:

Big assumption there on your part - hoping for a strikeout and asking/ordering one are two different things.  Nicely done.

I didn't assume you did, simply stating asking a low percentage kid to strike out to extend a game and get to the top of the line up is bush in my opinion.  

That's because "bush" has been shaped by the culture of baseball, which hasn't included time limits.

The closest thing we have is weather/darkness, in which I offer this example:

Top of six, visitors down by one, with a runner on first. #9 hitter is up. A storm is coming in, and everyone knows the game is over at any second. You have to weigh between your current hitter ending the game on a DP, or having him take an out so your #1 hitter can (maybe) extend the inning up until the storm hits. What do you do? Does no out or one out matter?

I understand the need for time limits and thankfully I don't coach where we use them but if I was in them I hope I would just play the game.  I don't want to tell a kid to strike out on purpose to turn the lineup over or extend the game.  Just play the game.  I'm not going to make a mound visit unless there is something I need to talk about.  Not extend the game.  Just play the game.

Stuff like this is where the adults lose sight up the purpose of sport.  It's to play the game and win through competition.  Not manipulation

2017LHPscrewball posted:

real green posted:

MuskyShane posted:

In my coaching days, we had a game where there was a time limit.  We were the home team and we down early but had chipped away to a one run deficit and the momentum was our way.   Time was running short and we were up with two outs and a batter with 2 strikes on him.  I really needed the player to strike out fast to get to the next inning (#9 hitter was not going to help).  I did not have to worry about it as a parent from the visiting crowd yelled “30 seconds coach.”  The opposing coach called a mound meeting and ran out the clock on us.

It would just as bush to have the player purposely strike out to extend the game.  

Not really.  On the timed games, there is an element of clock management.  I've seen some really quick innings, especially with the visitors (on the losing side of the score) pitching.  Quick meatballs either called a strike or put into play.  If I'm down by 2 and already have two outs, I could see my team wanting a quick strikeout so as to get one more shot with 3 outs.  The timing thing is somewhat arbitrary at times and if it takes an intentional strikeout to stay alive, sometimes that is preferable to missing out by 30 seconds or so.

Bingo

Had a strange situation last week.  District game, playing the last place team and it's not competitive at all. We're up 18-0, backups in, etc. and they can't buy an out. Rain is closing in fast. We're in the top of 5 and we're hitting. Have to complete 5 to have an official game, otherwise you have to pick it back up on Monday. 

You better believe we bunted right back to the pitcher to give them outs. (It actually took 5 bunts to P for them to get 3 outs, but you get the point.) Bottom half of inning we got 3 quick outs. Finished the game in 5 do to run rule, and the bottom fell out as we were getting on the bus.

Maybe "bush," maybe not, but with a big week in front of us we had a good practice Monday and stayed on our routine rather than having to load up and drive across town to finish a run-rule victory. 

That was a first for me.

Nothing wrong with that at all. 

coach2709 posted:

I understand the need for time limits and thankfully I don't coach where we use them but if I was in them I hope I would just play the game.  I don't want to tell a kid to strike out on purpose to turn the lineup over or extend the game.  Just play the game.  I'm not going to make a mound visit unless there is something I need to talk about.  Not extend the game.  Just play the game.

Stuff like this is where the adults lose sight up the purpose of sport.  It's to play the game and win through competition.  Not manipulation

What if the game was necessary to make the district tourney, or state playoffs?

rynoattack posted:

coach2709 posted:

I understand the need for time limits and thankfully I don't coach where we use them but if I was in them I hope I would just play the game.  I don't want to tell a kid to strike out on purpose to turn the lineup over or extend the game.  Just play the game.  I'm not going to make a mound visit unless there is something I need to talk about.  Not extend the game.  Just play the game.

Stuff like this is where the adults lose sight up the purpose of sport.  It's to play the game and win through competition.  Not manipulation

What if the game was necessary to make the district tourney, or state playoffs?

I get what you're asking and that's why I'm glad I don't coach in this situation.  I cannot in any way envision a situation where a game with so much on the line at the high school level would ever be on a time limit.

A better question is would I do what ironhorse did and in all honesty yes I would because it is a true exception to baseball.  I wouldn't want to go back either just for whatever it was.  But manipulating time and at bats just doesn't appeal to me.  But I'm also competitive and who knows I may actually do those things in the heat of battle.

The rules of baseball weren't designed for the game to have a time limit. It was designed for the teams to have 9 innings to score as many runs as they could. In essence of time games for younger ages are shortened to 6 or 7 innings - however it still wasn't designed to be "timed", rather the teams get x number of innings to score their runs.

When you add in time limits, you change the nature of the way the game was supposed to be played. Whether we like it or not, time limits change the strategy of the game.

With that in mind, I don't fault a coach for using reasonable tactics within the rules to help his team win. I may not like it - but I have to play under all the rules, not just those that fit the way I think the game should be played.

Ultimately I look at it this way. If it gets to the point where my team loses a game because the opposing coach stalls, well isn't it my team's fault for being in that position? If I'm being honest, it's not the stalling that cost us the game - it is what we did leading up to that point.

Now that doesn't mean I can't wish stalling coaches get a terrible case of jock itch.