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Really interesting. Thanks.
Fantastic article that's worth the read, thanks so much for sharing!
+1
This is what I call insanity. What is the annual salary of someone with a communications degree?
You would be better off going straight in to the military, serve 4 yrs, and get out with the GI bill and a full ride at most colleges.
Marks owes about $150,000 in student loans, he said, and he’s still one semester shy of his communications degree.
Lionsbaseball, I read the same thing and I'm sure most here follow Kendall on Twitter as well. I agree it's absolutely insane and the article paints a very realistic picture, financially, that many should take the time to read.
lionbaseball posted:
This is what I call insanity. What is the annual salary of someone with a communications degree?
You would be better off going straight in to the military, serve 4 yrs, and get out with the GI bill and a full ride at most colleges.
Marks owes about $150,000 in student loans, he said, and he’s still one semester shy of his communications degree.
Any kid who plays, or attempts to play at a major D1 goes in thinking he's a pro prospect. The military is not an avenue to pro ball.
This is worth a post. This is insane that a coach would allow a player to go into debt. Not sure that I really get this. You dont ever sacrifice your future for a championship ring.
150K? How much is tuition at Coastal anyway? Didnt he qualify for academic $? Didnt ANYONE help him?
Parents, dont ever let your player walk onto a program unless you have the means to pay or he is academically eligible. Dont let the coach tell him how much they need him and to sacrifice your money for others unless you can afford it. Dont do this to your children!!!!
TPM posted:This is worth a post. This is insane that a coach would allow a player to go into debt. Not sure that I really get this. You dont ever sacrifice your future for a championship ring.
150K? How much is tuition at Coastal anyway? Didnt he qualify for academic $? Didnt ANYONE help him?
Parents, dont ever let your player walk onto a program unless you have the means to pay or he is academically eligible. Dont let the coach tell him how much they need him and to sacrifice your money for others unless you can afford it. Dont do this to your children!!!!
Looks like about $11K in state, and $25K out of state for tuition, room and board adds another $10-11K. Per US News site, CC meets an average of 47% of need for students who get aid, and that percentage would include loans. So there's no guarantee there's anyone getting much of the cost their covered, especially in light of the school's endowment which is only ~$25M.
Clearly, making the grades to get into a more selective school with better academic/need based aid, is a huge deal given the relative lack of athletic money in baseball. I'm not sure how much of an option that is at the typical DI powerhouse, but it's one of the reasons I'm happier that my son's route to college involved academic ability more than athletic. Knock on wood, he'll come out with a manageable debt, a STEM degree, and still have had the opportunity to play ball.
jacjacatk posted:TPM posted:This is worth a post. This is insane that a coach would allow a player to go into debt. Not sure that I really get this. You dont ever sacrifice your future for a championship ring.
150K? How much is tuition at Coastal anyway? Didnt he qualify for academic $? Didnt ANYONE help him?
Parents, dont ever let your player walk onto a program unless you have the means to pay or he is academically eligible. Dont let the coach tell him how much they need him and to sacrifice your money for others unless you can afford it. Dont do this to your children!!!!
Looks like about $11K in state, and $25K out of state for tuition, room and board adds another $10-11K. Per US News site, CC meets an average of 47% of need for students who get aid, and that percentage would include loans. So there's no guarantee there's anyone getting much of the cost their covered, especially in light of the school's endowment which is only ~$25M.
Clearly, making the grades to get into a more selective school with better academic/need based aid, is a huge deal given the relative lack of athletic money in baseball. I'm not sure how much of an option that is at the typical DI powerhouse, but it's one of the reasons I'm happier that my son's route to college involved academic ability more than athletic. Knock on wood, he'll come out with a manageable debt, a STEM degree, and still have had the opportunity to play ball.
Thanks but i am sorry, thats ludicrous. Someone should have advised him he will be in debt for probably forever.
No, big athletic powerhouse D1 programs dont do this. If you cant afford it, they wont let you be a walk on for 3,4 years and accumulate that debt. Besides st most powerhouse programs you are lucky to get 4 years unless you had a medical redshirt. The coach tells you if you are not drafted your money is spent. If you contributed then they find money. Recruiting and making it work is why some coaches are good at it and others are not.
TPM posted:This is worth a post. This is insane that a coach would allow a player to go into debt. Not sure that I really get this. You dont ever sacrifice your future for a championship ring.
150K? How much is tuition at Coastal anyway? Didnt he qualify for academic $? Didnt ANYONE help him?
Parents, dont ever let your player walk onto a program unless you have the means to pay or he is academically eligible. Dont let the coach tell him how much they need him and to sacrifice your money for others unless you can afford it. Dont do this to your children!!!!
I thought the $150K debt was absurd. But I didn't want to be the first to post it and pee on his parade. When he's still paying off his loan in his 40s he'll be looking at his ring and asking if it was worth it.
If a kid accumulates $150K debt on college it better be for med school where there's a guaranteed ROI. This kind of debt is even questionable for law school now. I was told non Ivy law students who don't make Law Review are having trouble finding quality interviews. A friend's son graduated from a top twenty law school. He didn't make Law Review. He didn't get one major city law firm interview.
A group of parents discussed this article at my sons summer league game yesterday. Very thought provoking
I certainly learned some thing about the NCAA.
One of the more interesting discussions
NCAA says they are advocates for the kids but the rules hardly do anything to really protect anyone but the school and NCAA. How can you allow schools to pay one student more than another to participate. I.e. One student/athlete gets a full ride and another gets nothing? Walk ons abide by every responsibility and contribute just as much as any other player yet gets nothing. Furthermore, they are the most readily cut and still must abide by transfer rules? I mean if your paying your own way and the coach says we don't want you, shouldn't you be able to do whatever you want? Further still the coach has the right to tell you that there are places you can't play in your release? (I didn't believe that, but it's true) Then consider this, coach from prestigious baseball school offers walk on spot at his school that is very expensive for out of state kids. It's chance every kid wants so they turn down other offers only to never really be given a chance. One family had a kid that accepted a "preferred" walk on spot moved In to his dorm and got a text from coach saying roster was full sorry. So mom and dad's investment or student loans create hardships for people. The NCAA says academics first and parity is goal so what if every school has same money and everyone gets equal slice. Now the kids can freely choose what's the best situation for them and coaches can't manipulate kids without regard to their well being.
RJM posted:A friend's son graduated from a top twenty law school. He didn't make Law Review. He didn't get one major city law firm interview.
Have your friend get his son's hearing checked. Gonna need to hear sirens in the distance...
Nuke83 posted:RJM posted:A friend's son graduated from a top twenty law school. He didn't make Law Review. He didn't get one major city law firm interview.
Have your friend get his son's hearing checked. Gonna need to hear sirens in the distance...
LOL! He chose to take a position in one of the top small city law firms. They're known enough if he's a big hitter he could parlay it into a job in a Boston law firm.
12pitches posted:A group of parents discussed this article at my sons summer league game yesterday. Very thought provoking
I certainly learned some thing about the NCAA.
One of the more interesting discussions
NCAA says they are advocates for the kids but the rules hardly do anything to really protect anyone but the school and NCAA. How can you allow schools to pay one student more than another to participate. I.e. One student/athlete gets a full ride and another gets nothing? Walk ons abide by every responsibility and contribute just as much as any other player yet gets nothing. Furthermore, they are the most readily cut and still must abide by transfer rules? I mean if your paying your own way and the coach says we don't want you, shouldn't you be able to do whatever you want? Further still the coach has the right to tell you that there are places you can't play in your release? (I didn't believe that, but it's true) Then consider this, coach from prestigious baseball school offers walk on spot at his school that is very expensive for out of state kids. It's chance every kid wants so they turn down other offers only to never really be given a chance. One family had a kid that accepted a "preferred" walk on spot moved In to his dorm and got a text from coach saying roster was full sorry. So mom and dad's investment or student loans create hardships for people. The NCAA says academics first and parity is goal so what if every school has same money and everyone gets equal slice. Now the kids can freely choose what's the best situation for them and coaches can't manipulate kids without regard to their well being.
FWIW there are walk ons in every sport. Football included. However, if the player shows he can contribute, he will usually get something, even academic.
Not really sure why this player stayed for 4 years, though he said as a sophmore he thought about it. Not sure why someone didnt care enough to notice he was going to be strapped his whole life.
I am sure the signing team gave him nothing. Ironic though he owes so much. I hope that he does finish his degree and CC will help him do that.
They owe him bigtime.
Becoming a walk on at an out of state school is never a wise decision. It should always be the goal of the recruit and his family to never be in a situation like this.
Until things change I think, as has been echoed here in thread after thread on this topic and others, you really need to go to the school where you are very much wanted and where it looks like a very reasonable place where you'll be content with your playing time.
It is always people on the "bubble" who complain the most, whether that be on a Little League All-Star team all the way up through the AAAA level with players who bounce back and forth between MLB & AAA. You hear a ton of "it just isn't fair" in today's society.
Baseball is best when it is a tough, gritty sport played by very strong minded ballplayers. From the youth level in the USA at least, it is becoming more & more a rich kid sport. And way too many rich kids don't wanna work hard enough to elevate their game.
Yes, work for change if you believe in it, but until that change comes you should be aware of how things are done and then accept the reality. If you don't want to sit at a D1, go to a D3. You need to be realistic about the talent level you are at.
I have to say that is the mentality that scares me - so what they stole your car - you shouldn't have parked it there - get over it happens everyday, not worth looking for who did it
Great article. Thanks for sharing! I agree with most that falling that far into debt is not a wise decision. It's great that he got a ring, but think about the excitement/buzz this kid created for college baseball, and he gets left with owing a $150K. Doesn't really seem fair.
As TPM said earlier, I am not sure this happens much at the Power 5 level, because when we were speaking to a Power 5 school, the HC said that he doesn't have kids on his team that use student loans. So I think these coaches make every attempt to make it affordable for their kids. Not sure that the CC HC did right by this young man.
12 Pitches, I'm not sure what "that mentality" is you were referring to. If it is the post above by 3&2, I have to admit I agree with him. Our society has shifted toward one in which so many people feel they are "owed" something. No one owes you nor me anything. A chance is all my son was looking for. It was our responsibility to make sure he was fishing in the right pond.
Now he is injured. Is that fair? Life isn't fair from my perspective. It's simply what you make of it.
I'm not sure I see the relationship between a car being stolen and "bubble players" feeling slighted.
Anyone not happy with their present position in life is free to work harder to improve said position.
12pitches posted:I have to say that is the mentality that scares me - so what they stole your car - you shouldn't have parked it there - get over it happens everyday, not worth looking for who did it
Some people get their car stolen because they made a bad decision where to park it. Some kids make bad decisions about where to play college ball. They chose the dream school when their chances of getting on the field are slim and none. Then they become a candidate to be replaced on the roster every year. Making a decision to end up 100+K in debt is not a good decision. I'm betting he wasn't thinking about it the past four years. Now it's the elephant in the room.
rynoattack posted:Great article. Thanks for sharing! I agree with most that falling that far into debt is not a wise decision. It's great that he got a ring, but think about the excitement/buzz this kid created for college baseball, and he gets left with owing a $150K. Doesn't really seem fair.
As TPM said earlier, I am not sure this happens much at the Power 5 level, because when we were speaking to a Power 5 school, the HC said that he doesn't have kids on his team that use student loans. So I think these coaches make every attempt to make it affordable for their kids. Not sure that the CC HC did right by this young man.
It would be nice if a wealthy alumnus/supporter of the team offered to pay half for the enjoyment the team brought him. Then I woke up.
I cannot say for a fact that his kind of stuff happens "everywhere", but I think that would be a pretty safe bet. It certainly happens at every college and university in my state, including the Power 5 schools. I'm not saying that it happens to the same degree as it did with Marks. But, it is not unusual for college baseball players to end up with significant student loans when their playing days are over. Morrison's $40,000 in debt is not unusual. According to one article I read, the average student loan debt for all 2016 grads is around $37,000. Why should baseball players be any different than other students? In response to this article, Michael Roth tweeted that he had $25,000 in student loan debt when he left South Carolina. And, that's a kid who got athletic money, a lottery scholarship, and possibly other academic aid.
To those with kids headed toward college in the near future, I would not put a whole lot of faith in the suggestions that coaches will "find" your kid money. All they have is the 11.7. They have zero influence on academic and need based scholarships.
Parents with kids that may walk on, I would not get my hopes up about coaches later giving your kids money if they contribute. Some certainly do. But many others do not. Once your kid gets on campus and drinks the KoolAid, the coach knows he's not going anywhere. If he's got money that he can use to bring another asset on campus, that's what he's going to do. Of course, if he has extra money lying around, he probably didn't do a very good job of planning/recruiting. Football walk ons get money far more often than baseball walk ons.
Very few, if any, coaches are going to counsel a kid against going into debt to play college baseball. Nor will they counsel a kid against a worthless major in order to play baseball. Do you think financial aid people counsel kids against taking out big loans and/or taking worthless majors? Not if they want to keep their jobs. It's all about putting butts in seats. (Which is the main reason some schools have JV baseball teams). It seems unrealistic to me to expect coaches to do something that college financial aid folks aren't going to do.
From my perspective, academics should drive everything. But, people have different perspectives and priorities, and that's fine. College baseball is a business, pure and simple. There is nothing surprising in this article.
Some schools do have programs that pay for tuition, room and board after a player exhausts his eligibility. At that point, the 11.7 rule no longer applies. I suspect they do this because it helps with their 5 year graduation rates. After 4 years, my son needed 1 class to graduate with his ME degree. His school paid for the extra semester, and I mean everything, tuition, room, board, etc. They would have paid for the full year if he had needed it. I really hope Coastal has the same deal, but without the football revenue of a big D1, they may not. Although, a friend tells me the NAIA school at which his son played has the same deal.
That is a lot of debt, no doubt about it.
But there are many young people that leave college owing a small fortune. Our granddaughter will join that group in four years. She will have a degree, but no CWS ring or the memories or accomplishment of a lifetime.
I wonder just how many players would go into debt $150,000 to win the CWS? Not every decision is a wise one. This young man has accomplished greatness! Think about all those others that are in debt due to college. It would be interesting to follow this player and see if winning that championship somehow helps him succeed in life. Maybe that $150,000 becomes a great investment!
Still, I understand the unfairness of it all.
I don't see the big deal about the kid being in debt and playing baseball. He's just like any other student and got to play a game he loved. Had he not been a baseball player, he probably would have the same issue. The number of college students in big time debt is unconscionable. Tuition keeps going up and up, and the pushers keep giving them money. Moral of the story is make sure your degree can support the payback of the debt. Not many can.
Everyone cuts their own deal, good or bad. Obviously, he got bad advice on his part and the school, in hind sight, appears to have gotten a real bargain for his services.
The take away;
The coaches stock has risen with the COY award. Could mean a big pay day as a result.
The school is getting national recognition and potentially better recruits.
The team is now in the Sunbelt Conference. Unlikely move had they not made a deep run.
The NCAA is getting filthy rich from the CWS and the residual income from licensed apparel and merchandise, with a percentage back to the member school.
He's got a really cool ring, some great memories and got to play college baseball at his own expense.
Golfman25 posted:I don't see the big deal about the kid being in debt and playing baseball. He's just like any other student and got to play a game he loved. Had he not been a baseball player, he probably would have the same issue. The number of college students in big time debt is unconscionable. Tuition keeps going up and up, and the pushers keep giving them money. Moral of the story is make sure your degree can support the payback of the debt. Not many can.
Debt is a big deal. And he is no longer playing baseball.
In the business world we refer to it as bait and switch. Oh here is where your locker will be and here is all the free stuff you will get and you will be a rock star on campus - reality thanks for coming out we don't need you. Aside from the practice being highly unethical, it is really just bad business. However, when there are no rules to protect the kids, its just explained away as business as usual and the kid shoulda worked harder/been better or made a better decision. What if we had a rule that you recruit them, they follow the rules, you commit to them for 4 years?
A coach needs leverage, otherwise the players (and I hate to say it but especially a majority of this generation of players) won't go that extra mile to work hard and keep their spot on the roster or even fight for playing time. Then all of a sudden you have a culture of slackers on your team (that kind of thing is very contagious).
Next thing that happens is the team loses too much and the coach is going home to his wife & kids explaining that he got fired and they are gonna have to move and the kids are gonna need to change schools and make new friends (again)
I read somewhere in this thread that the NCAA is supposed to protect the student athlete. I almost spit coffee on computer screen reading that. That was funny.
Maybe coaches should work in the real world where they have employees and shareholders and a billion regulations and employment laws. You hire a person, you motivate them, you make them believe in corporate culture, and you hope they produce or as you say = the team loses too much and the coach is going home to his wife & kids explaining that he got fired and they are gonna have to move and the kids are gonna need to change schools and make new friends (again)
TPM posted:This is worth a post. This is insane that a coach would allow a player to go into debt. Not sure that I really get this. You dont ever sacrifice your future for a championship ring.
150K? How much is tuition at Coastal anyway? Didnt he qualify for academic $? Didnt ANYONE help him?
Parents, dont ever let your player walk onto a program unless you have the means to pay or he is academically eligible. Dont let the coach tell him how much they need him and to sacrifice your money for others unless you can afford it. Dont do this to your children!!!!
It is not just baseball. My sister took out tremendous student loans so her oldest daughter could get a degree in dance. At the time, I remember asking my sister why the loans were not in the daughter's name. Her response: Oh, she will never be able to pay them back. So even though baseball players get small scholarships, there are plenty of parents chancing their kids dreams in other directions also.
So with that debt, the end result is what employment the player will get with a degree from the school. USNews has the school ranked #63 in south region, #25Public school (south) and #6 best value in south region.
MTH posted:
Some schools do have programs that pay for tuition, room and board after a player exhausts his eligibility. At that point, the 11.7 rule no longer applies. I suspect they do this because it helps with their 5 year graduation rates. After 4 years, my son needed 1 class to graduate with his ME degree. His school paid for the extra semester, and I mean everything, tuition, room, board, etc. They would have paid for the full year if he had needed it. I really hope Coastal has the same deal, but without the football revenue of a big D1, they may not. Although, a friend tells me the NAIA school at which his son played has the same deal.
I wonder how you can find this out? I assume the RC would know? I doubt my son will graduate in 4 years, so that would help a lot :-)
Dadofa17 posted:MTH posted:
Some schools do have programs that pay for tuition, room and board after a player exhausts his eligibility. At that point, the 11.7 rule no longer applies. I suspect they do this because it helps with their 5 year graduation rates. After 4 years, my son needed 1 class to graduate with his ME degree. His school paid for the extra semester, and I mean everything, tuition, room, board, etc. They would have paid for the full year if he had needed it. I really hope Coastal has the same deal, but without the football revenue of a big D1, they may not. Although, a friend tells me the NAIA school at which his son played has the same deal.
I wonder how you can find this out? I assume the RC would know? I doubt my son will graduate in 4 years, so that would help a lot :-)
RC would definitely know. In fact most would use this as a selling point. They certainly did with us, and have continued to do so over the last 8 years.
If you pay to go to school and play baseball, you're a consumer.***
If you're offered a partial athletic scholarship, you're still a consumer.
You can't expect the salesman to look out for your interests. HIs job is to look out for the school's interests.
A 25% discount may not make an over-priced product that is unsuitable for you a good deal.
Throwing in an added feature like a baseball tryout may not make a purchase of education services a good value, regardless of whether they are offered at a discount price.
Education is a "some assembly required" purchase. If you don't assemble it carefully, it won't look like much when you're done.
It behooves all baseball players and their families to consider college a major purchase and to be explicit about what they are buying, what they are paying, how they will pay for it, and why they think it's a good value for them.
***As distinguished from football and basketball players whom fans and alumni pay to watch perform: they are products. The school considers their scholarships to be cost of materials.
The issue isn't whether the kids should or should not go into debt. It isn't a question of whether the experience and education received is worth $150k. And it certainly isn't a question of whether the head coach or the financial aid department of the school should be blamed (they shouldn't)!
The issue is that having equivalency sports is simply stupid and in no way "looks out for" the student athlete. Some will argue that the equivalency was born out of Title IX (count me in that camp), others will say it's not to blame.
The simple point of the article is that equivalency in baseball is bad. The debt is a symptom of the disease.
3and2Fastball posted:A coach needs leverage, otherwise the players (and I hate to say it but especially a majority of this generation of players) won't go that extra mile to work hard and keep their spot on the roster or even fight for playing time. Then all of a sudden you have a culture of slackers on your team (that kind of thing is very contagious).
Next thing that happens is the team loses too much and the coach is going home to his wife & kids explaining that he got fired and they are gonna have to move and the kids are gonna need to change schools and make new friends (again)
I'm not sure I follow this. You're saying that if there were full scholarships in baseball the coach wouldn't have any leverage? If that's the case, I pity the FBS football coaches out there, who must have zero leverage, having to deal with 85 full scholarships.
12pitches posted:In the business world we refer to it as bait and switch. Oh here is where your locker will be and here is all the free stuff you will get and you will be a rock star on campus - reality thanks for coming out we don't need you. Aside from the practice being highly unethical, it is really just bad business. However, when there are no rules to protect the kids, its just explained away as business as usual and the kid shoulda worked harder/been better or made a better decision. What if we had a rule that you recruit them, they follow the rules, you commit to them for 4 years?
It isn't bait and switch. If you're offered 25% you're going to be paying 75%. If you're offered a walk on opportunity you're paying the entire bill. That's not bait and switch. It's a take it or leave it offer. It's the same as buying anything expensive. The person has to ask, "Can I afford it?" Or "Can I afford the payments?" and make a sensible decision. Anyone owing $150K didn't make a sensible decision. Marx chose the Lexus when he can only afford the payments on the Chevy.
12pitches posted:Maybe coaches should work in the real world where they have employees and shareholders and a billion regulations and employment laws. You hire a person, you motivate them, you make them believe in corporate culture, and you hope they produce or as you say = the team loses too much and the coach is going home to his wife & kids explaining that he got fired and they are gonna have to move and the kids are gonna need to change schools and make new friends (again)
They deal with the AD, wealthy boosters and influential alumni. If you don't understand this pressure you've never talked to a coach. Jack Leggett (Clemson) is/was one of the best coaches in college baseball. He was let go last year for not winning the ACC and beating South Carolina frequently enough in the past few years.
I know someone who donates a mil per year to an SEC school. He's a diehard football fan with seats on the 50. Do you think he has the president's and AD's ear regarding the success of the team? To borrow and old phrase, You bet your bippy?