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@swampboy

Sort of..  in this case the "consumer" is really a contract worker bound by a restrictive contract that is binding by mere participation for any period of time. These workers cannot freely take their business elsewhere as a consumer could.  Once bound by the contract whether they receive any financial assistance or not, they must abide by the rules of two entities, the school and the NCAA who in fact own their baseball rights and can dictate their future in accordance with rules.  ie lets say a walk on gets cut.  This does not break the contract it just merely means he cant play a said school.  He must sit out a year at the school where he would like to play if D1 and can only do that if the school grants his release and places no restrictions on it.  Now in the real world I cant do that to my customers or employees.  There are non-compete agreements for highly compensated but none for entry level employees.  Such a practice in the business world where having someone agree to play/work at said place/school with an exclusivity clause (once agreement is reached I agree not to talk to other employers) and then if the offer be revoked the employee/consumer would have to be compensated not restricted 

12pitches posted:

Maybe coaches should work in the real world where they have employees and shareholders and a billion regulations and employment laws.  You hire a person, you motivate them, you make them believe in corporate culture, and you hope they produce or as you say =  the team loses too much and the coach is going home to his wife & kids explaining that he got fired and they are gonna have to move and the kids are gonna need to change schools and make new friends (again) 

12pitches, welcome to the site.  I see in your profile that your son is a former college player.  I would be curious, if you are willing to share, what his experience was like.  I'm trying to get a better understanding of your perspective.

Go44dad posted:
Golfman25 posted:

I don't see the big deal about the kid being in debt and playing baseball.  He's just like any other student and got to play a game he loved.  Had he not been a baseball player, he probably would have the same issue.  The number of college students in big time debt is unconscionable.  Tuition keeps going up and up, and the pushers keep giving them money.  Moral of the story is make sure your degree can support the payback of the debt.  Not many can. 

Debt is a big deal.  And he is no longer playing baseball.  

How is that different from average joe college student?  

Running away the best article I have read on this topic. It does seem the scholarship levels need to be higher in baseball. The challenge is to figure out some happy medium (revenue based?) that recognizes baseball is becoming a revenue sport without bankrupting the lower ranked programs. (Talk of splitting D1 up into 2 divisions based on available scholarship money is an idea but one hard to sell.)

The article brings up so many interesting points... Do we force all programs (including the northern ones) to fully invest in their program or leave D1? Do we force them to make money or bow out? 

I would like to see scholarships increase to at least 14 or 15. I truly believe the NCAA can generate more revenue off baseball (video games, more effort to balance competition in the north, more TV games, etc). There should be some type of revenue sharing to allow all teams to afford the max scholarship level. If you had a lower salary cap in the MLB, would that be fair?

____

Amazon: Going with the Pitch SE

Author of "Going with the Pitch: Adjusting to Baseball, School and Life as a Division I College Athlete" (Second Edition)

 

 

 

3and2Fastball posted:

A coach needs leverage, otherwise the players (and I hate to say it but especially a majority of this generation of players) won't go that extra mile to work hard and keep their spot on the roster or even fight for playing time.  Then all of a sudden you have a culture of slackers on your team (that kind of thing is very contagious).

Next thing that happens is the team loses too much and the coach is going home to his wife & kids explaining that he got fired and they are gonna have to move and the kids are gonna need to change schools and make new friends (again)

You are a 13U coach?

The culture comes from the coach. Most coaches work real hard on that concept. If they dont win it means the coach didnt do his job.

Golfman25 posted:
Go44dad posted:
Golfman25 posted:

I don't see the big deal about the kid being in debt and playing baseball.  He's just like any other student and got to play a game he loved.  Had he not been a baseball player, he probably would have the same issue.  The number of college students in big time debt is unconscionable.  Tuition keeps going up and up, and the pushers keep giving them money.  Moral of the story is make sure your degree can support the payback of the debt.  Not many can. 

Debt is a big deal.  And he is no longer playing baseball.  

How is that different from average joe college student?  

Those of us here try very hard to educate others on helping parents to help their players find the right program so they will not accumulate huge debt or parents dont have to 2nd mortgage the house or dip into their already  down 401K. If thats not working, whats the purpose here?

Come on folks, this isnt a Duke or Standford or Yale, Harvard or Princeton degree that iscworth money in itself.  Its pretty hard these days for college grads with undergrade degrees to compete against those with graduate degrees. If you must, spend it on grad school.

What ever happened to saying no?  Parents are so afraid to say no. No you cant go there because we cant afford it and we dont want you to accumulate huge debt.  You can go to the state school and you can walk on there if you wish!  

We said no to son, we cant afford UMiami, they didnt have endowments back then. Son could have gone to state school and got money back in his pocket. Another option became available, but if it hadnt been affordable he would not have gone oos.  

I am very sorry, son has an ACC championship ring (2 now actually) and played in Omaha and no it isnt worth paying 150k for. Great memories and accomplishments, but that doesnt pay your bills.

Of course all of this is JMO, you can take from it what you wish.

MTH posted:

I cannot say for a fact that his kind of stuff happens "everywhere", but I think that would be a pretty safe bet.  It certainly happens at every college and university in my state, including the Power 5 schools.  I'm not saying that it happens to the same degree as it did with Marks.  But, it is not unusual for college baseball players to end up with significant student loans when their playing days are over.  Morrison's $40,000 in debt is not unusual.  According to one article I read, the average student loan debt for all 2016 grads is around $37,000.  Why should baseball players be any different than other students?   In response to this article, Michael Roth tweeted that he had $25,000 in student loan debt when he left South Carolina.  And, that's a kid who got athletic money, a lottery scholarship, and possibly other academic aid.  

To those with kids headed toward college in the near future, I would not put a whole lot of faith in the suggestions that coaches will "find" your kid money.  All they have is the 11.7.  They have zero influence on academic and need based scholarships.  

Parents with kids that may walk on, I would not get my hopes up about coaches later giving your kids money if they contribute.  Some certainly do.  But many others do not.  Once your kid gets on campus and drinks the KoolAid, the coach knows he's not going anywhere.  If he's got money that he can use to bring another asset on campus, that's what he's going to do.  Of course, if he has extra money lying around, he probably didn't do a very good job of planning/recruiting.   Football walk ons get money far more often than baseball walk ons.

Very few, if any, coaches are going to counsel a kid against going into debt to play college baseball.  Nor will they counsel a kid against a worthless major in order to play baseball.  Do you think financial aid people counsel kids against taking out big loans and/or taking worthless majors?  Not if they want to keep their jobs.  It's all about putting butts in seats.  (Which is the main reason some schools have JV baseball teams).  It seems unrealistic to me to expect coaches to do something that college financial aid folks aren't going to do.    

From my perspective, academics should drive everything.  But, people have different perspectives and priorities, and that's fine.  College baseball is a business, pure and simple.  There is nothing surprising in this article.   

Some schools do have programs that pay for tuition, room and board after a player exhausts his eligibility.  At that point, the 11.7 rule no longer applies.  I suspect they do this because it helps with their 5 year graduation rates.  After 4 years, my son needed 1 class to graduate with his ME degree.  His school paid for the extra semester, and I mean everything, tuition, room, board, etc.  They would have paid for the full year if he had needed it.  I really hope Coastal has the same deal, but without the football revenue of a big D1, they may not.  Although, a friend tells me the NAIA school at which his son played has the same deal.  

 

 

37-40k is a lot different than 150k.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Golfman25 posted:
Go44dad posted:
Golfman25 posted:

I don't see the big deal about the kid being in debt and playing baseball.  He's just like any other student and got to play a game he loved.  Had he not been a baseball player, he probably would have the same issue.  The number of college students in big time debt is unconscionable.  Tuition keeps going up and up, and the pushers keep giving them money.  Moral of the story is make sure your degree can support the payback of the debt.  Not many can. 

Debt is a big deal.  And he is no longer playing baseball.  

How is that different from average joe college student?  

The monthly loan repayment is the same, baseball player or non sports playing student.  In theory, the baseball player has a better support system around him?  Maybe it was his choice.

It can be overcome and paid back.  Sleep on a couch with four roommates in a cheap apartment, eat spaghetti every night for ten years, ride a bike to work.  Sounds kinda like the minor leagues?

Teach your kids finance, and the time value of money.

I feel sorry for Marks, and other graduates with really high debt loads with degrees with low starting salaries.

Go44dad posted:
Golfman25 posted:

I don't see the big deal about the kid being in debt and playing baseball.  He's just like any other student and got to play a game he loved.  Had he not been a baseball player, he probably would have the same issue.  The number of college students in big time debt is unconscionable.  Tuition keeps going up and up, and the pushers keep giving them money.  Moral of the story is make sure your degree can support the payback of the debt.  Not many can. 

Debt is a big deal.  And he is no longer playing baseball.  

He signed with the giants

TPM posted:
pabaseballdad posted:

I don't understand the debate on kids taking on debt.  It says right in the article that he chose to do it.     If the kid and his parents make the choice what's the problem? 

So you would allow your child to leave college with that debt?

 

Nope.  But it's not my place to criticize anyone else's choice.   Free country. I really don't care if he's a million in debt.   He has to live with the choice.  I don't 

pabaseballdad posted:
Go44dad posted:
Golfman25 posted:

I don't see the big deal about the kid being in debt and playing baseball.  He's just like any other student and got to play a game he loved.  Had he not been a baseball player, he probably would have the same issue.  The number of college students in big time debt is unconscionable.  Tuition keeps going up and up, and the pushers keep giving them money.  Moral of the story is make sure your degree can support the payback of the debt.  Not many can. 

Debt is a big deal.  And he is no longer playing baseball.  

He signed with the giants

Yeah, the ~$1500/mo payment on his loan(s) should be straight-forward enough to pay off on an undrafted FA signing bonus/salary.

Making what 1200 a month?  

jacjacatk posted:
pabaseballdad posted:
Go44dad posted:
Golfman25 posted:

I don't see the big deal about the kid being in debt and playing baseball.  He's just like any other student and got to play a game he loved.  Had he not been a baseball player, he probably would have the same issue.  The number of college students in big time debt is unconscionable.  Tuition keeps going up and up, and the pushers keep giving them money.  Moral of the story is make sure your degree can support the payback of the debt.  Not many can. 

Debt is a big deal.  And he is no longer playing baseball.  

He signed with the giants

Yeah, the ~$1500/mo payment on his loan(s) should be straight-forward enough to pay off on an undrafted FA signing bonus/salary.

Making 1200 give or take a month as well.

pabaseballdad posted:
TPM posted:
pabaseballdad posted:

I don't understand the debate on kids taking on debt.  It says right in the article that he chose to do it.     If the kid and his parents make the choice what's the problem? 

So you would allow your child to leave college with that debt?

 

Nope.  But it's not my place to criticize anyone else's choice.   Free country. I really don't care if he's a million in debt.   He has to live with the choice.  I don't 

No you dont, but i do really care for others and the good and bad choices they make in life. 

TPM posted:
pabaseballdad posted:
TPM posted:
pabaseballdad posted:

I don't understand the debate on kids taking on debt.  It says right in the article that he chose to do it.     If the kid and his parents make the choice what's the problem? 

So you would allow your child to leave college with that debt?

 

Nope.  But it's not my place to criticize anyone else's choice.   Free country. I really don't care if he's a million in debt.   He has to live with the choice.  I don't 

No you dont, but i do really care for others and the good and bad choices they make in life. 

I'm sure you are a caring person but how do you know it was a bad choice. Maybe it was in your world.   Maybe in his world  he thinks it was the best choice he ever made.   Maybe winning the national championship and playing at that school was his life's goal.  What the heck is wrong with that. It's his life to live.  

pabaseballdad posted:
TPM posted:
pabaseballdad posted:
TPM posted:
pabaseballdad posted:

I don't understand the debate on kids taking on debt.  It says right in the article that he chose to do it.     If the kid and his parents make the choice what's the problem? 

So you would allow your child to leave college with that debt?

 

Nope.  But it's not my place to criticize anyone else's choice.   Free country. I really don't care if he's a million in debt.   He has to live with the choice.  I don't 

No you dont, but i do really care for others and the good and bad choices they make in life. 

I'm sure you are a caring person but how do you know it was a bad choice. Maybe it was in your world.   Maybe in his world  he thinks it was the best choice he ever made.   Maybe winning the national championship and playing at that school was his life's goal.  What the heck is wrong with that. It's his life to live.  

 

17 -22 year olds dont always understand the implications of their choices, especially where money is concerned.

pabaseballdad posted:
Go44dad posted:
Golfman25 posted:

I don't see the big deal about the kid being in debt and playing baseball.  He's just like any other student and got to play a game he loved.  Had he not been a baseball player, he probably would have the same issue.  The number of college students in big time debt is unconscionable.  Tuition keeps going up and up, and the pushers keep giving them money.  Moral of the story is make sure your degree can support the payback of the debt.  Not many can. 

Debt is a big deal.  And he is no longer playing baseball.  

He signed with the giants

Given he was undrafted, signed as a free agent, not a pitcher and 5'7" he will be fortunate to be more than two years of A ball roster filler. If he wants to get in on coaching it's a good move. If he ever wants to pay off the 150K he just delaying reality two more years. However, doesn't he have to start paying off the loan now that he's out of college and employed? Not that $1200 a month will help much.

one thing that I haven't seen posted in this thread, I am not attempting to be a prick and I think the schools, the NCAA and Title 9 screw men and baseball in particular the hardest.

the kid took out 150 k in loans for 4 years? at coastal? nothing against them but lets face we aren't talking about Vandy, Lehigh, or Harvard or one of many others...At some point people do need to be responsible for the choices they make. Maybe everything will work out for this kid but I have to say that it may not have been the most well thought out plan, I would think he should have considered some other alternatives if the price of school was that big of an issue.

it seems to me like he was determined to play D1 baseball and didn't care what it costs until the ride was over and the bill was left to pay. It feels much like the person who buys the expensive house or luxury sports car and then a few months later when the bills role in...buyers remorse.

I feel like nobody involved handled this particular situation very well.

It's easy to compare the limited baseball scholarships to the scholarships available to football, basketball, or softball players and conclude that baseball players are getting a bad deal.

And it's true that years of political horse trading have created a status quo that's hard to respect as a model of consistency or equity.

But it's also true that in a completely unregulated market, there would probably be fewer baseball scholarships, not more.

Schools that offer athletic scholarships value sports because they promote the college brand, increase tribal loyalty, enrich campus life, and draw in potential students.

Schools that offer baseball scholarships generally do so not because baseball significantly helps accomplish these objectives but because it's baked into the cost structure of a complete D1 or D2 athletic program. I don't think any baseball programs make money for their schools.

If schools were free to sponsor sports on an a la carte basis and free to offer scholarships based only on their own sense of value, there wouldn't be many baseball scholarships.

So the NCAA offers the worst possible system for baseball players--unless you compare it to what baseball players would have without it.

If we think playing baseball through college and graduating with $150,000 in debt is troubling...

Suppose after the first year this young man is offered a 25% scholarship for his remaining 3 years (isn't that what we're all striving for?)  Then he would be dealing with a "mere" $121,875 student loan debt after 4 years!  Is that much better??

younglefty posted:

If we think playing baseball through college and graduating with $150,000 in debt is troubling...

Suppose after the first year this young man is offered a 25% scholarship for his remaining 3 years (isn't that what we're all striving for?)  Then he would be dealing with a "mere" $121,875 student loan debt after 4 years!  Is that much better??

No. Get additional $ that is academic.  Or go choose a more affordable option. Why is this so difficult to undetstand.

Pay more attention to your GPA than ERA or BA.

Go44dad posted:

as if people needed another reason to move to Texas....

Annual Tuition at the most expensive Texas publics 

tuition costs1

Out of curiosity, if anyone has a quick list of their states public tuition, I'd like to see it.

 

Uh, Texas isn't unique in this regard, they're basically the median state for in-state tuition (though a touch below the average thanks to the most expensive states).  Source, https://trends.collegeboard.or...five-year-percentage.

Missing from those numbers, of course, is room and board, which is likely to at least double the cost most places. And the fact that a degree from A&M-Kingsville is likely going to lead to a different long-term income than one from UT-Austin, even though the cost for an in-state kid is going to be pretty similar.

RJM posted:
rynoattack posted:

Great article.  Thanks for sharing!  I agree with most that falling that far into debt is not a wise decision.  It's great that he got a ring, but think about the excitement/buzz this kid created for college baseball, and he gets left with owing a $150K.  Doesn't really seem fair. 

As TPM said earlier, I am not sure this happens much at the Power 5 level, because when we were speaking to a Power 5 school, the HC said that he doesn't have kids on his team that use student loans.  So I think these coaches make every attempt to make it affordable for their kids.  Not sure that the CC HC did right by this young man.

It would be nice if a wealthy alumnus/supporter of the team offered to pay half for the enjoyment the team brought him. Then I woke up.

This thought got me thinking, and I don't know enough about NCAA rules to know the answer, but here's a "what-if":

What if a strong alumni network for a particular school decided that they were going to set up a trust, or an endowment of sorts.  Independent and unaffiliated with the school, but with the intent of directing money from the trust to pay off half (or 75%, or 100%) of student loan debt for all graduating baseball players.  AFTER graduation, when the player is no longer subject to NCAA rules.  No written agreement that this will happen, no signed contracts, just an alumni network helping out fellow alumni.

Is there anything in place to stop this from happening?  If there are no roadblocks, how come this isn't done more often?  It would be a huge recruiting tool, and would have most likely changed my college baseball career.  Imagine - "I can offer you a 25% scholarship, but the remaining 75% of the $50k out of state tuition is on you.  But, when you graduate, all your student loans will be paid off."

Some schools will obviously have advantages with a stronger alumni support network, but I wonder how this might change the college baseball landscape...

I don't think it is all that rare for young adults to rack up $100k or more in student loans.  Something needs to be done.  It's not really a baseball issue  for most.  In fact, it is a bigger issue among non athletes.

Our oldest grandson's fiancé graduated from college this year and is going to veterinarian school.  Not sure how all of that will work out, just hoping there are some high paying vet jobs out there and she gets one of them. She did have an athletic scholarship (volleyball) for the first four years, but these next four years it's just some academic money.

Guess I never realized that Coastal Carolina was that expensive.  I feel for the baseball player being that far in dept.  At the same time, he got much more out of that money than most who rack up that much dept.  Signing a free agent contract might not sound like that big of a deal.  But it is to a lot of baseball players that go undrafted.  I bet he thinks it was all worth it.  I hope it all turns out great for him.

I would assume having what you mentioned would be considered illegal if offered to a potential recruit. Some students stay on to be asst coaches and get the unfinished part of school paid.

One thing for future college players to also understand is many dont finish in four years adding even more to the total. Those that get drafted and get their school paid for dnt have to consider that. 

For us we did all we could to make sure son was done in four years as he was at expensive school. 

Try to have your student take online summer classes to fullfill some of the general education classes and save some ge so each summer they can complete. 

Many students that play sports cut back from the 15 approx units they need each semester to graduate in four years. 

Even when they play summer ball they can maintain some online classes. My son took classes every summer even the one after hs. 

Have to figure some things out on your own some with that type of stuff. 

We have no debt for his school and his is under 25,000 for a 50 plus school

 

 

Last edited by fanofgame
pabaseballdad posted:
TPM posted:
pabaseballdad posted:

I don't understand the debate on kids taking on debt.  It says right in the article that he chose to do it.     If the kid and his parents make the choice what's the problem? 

So you would allow your child to leave college with that debt?

 

Nope.  But it's not my place to criticize anyone else's choice.   Free country. I really don't care if he's a million in debt.   He has to live with the choice.  I don't 

I don't think that is the point that is being made.  I am currently taking an HR Class for my MBA Program, and as a part of the curriculum, we are discussing many "Case Studies".  This is essentially a great case study for us to discuss.  Many will think it is bad to go $150K in debt in order to play baseball.  

I had a neighbor once who was 150K + in debt for his Doctorate, and he was having problems paying it back.  

Nobody cares if you do not care about the subject.  If you don't care, don't comment...

RJM posted:
12pitches posted:

In the business world we refer to it as bait and switch.  Oh here is where your locker will be and here is all the free stuff you will get and you will be a rock star on campus - reality thanks for coming out we don't need you.  Aside from the practice being highly unethical, it is really just bad business.  However, when there are no rules to protect the kids, its just explained away as business as usual and the kid shoulda worked harder/been better or made a better decision. What if we had a rule that you recruit them, they follow the rules, you commit to them for 4 years?

It isn't bait and switch. If you're offered 25% you're going to be paying 75%. If you're offered a walk on opportunity you're paying the entire bill. That's not bait and switch. It's a take it or leave it offer. It's the same as buying anything expensive. The person has to ask, "Can I afford it?" Or "Can I afford the payments?" and make a sensible decision. Anyone owing $150K didn't make a sensible decision. Marx chose the Lexus when he can only afford the payments on the Chevy.

How many stories have we heard on this site alone where a coach takes away the scholarship of a 2nd year player to give to an incoming freshman?  Or the coach leaves and the new coach comes in takes away scholarships?  Nothing is guaranteed year to year and trying to rely on baseball money is a recipe for disaster.   

If my son doesn't get into a military academy he will most likely go straight into the military and at 22 yrs old will have his GI bill to pay for his college.  And if he wants to play baseball will still have that opportunity. 

RJM posted:
pabaseballdad posted:
Go44dad posted:
Golfman25 posted:

I don't see the big deal about the kid being in debt and playing baseball.  He's just like any other student and got to play a game he loved.  Had he not been a baseball player, he probably would have the same issue.  The number of college students in big time debt is unconscionable.  Tuition keeps going up and up, and the pushers keep giving them money.  Moral of the story is make sure your degree can support the payback of the debt.  Not many can. 

Debt is a big deal.  And he is no longer playing baseball.  

He signed with the giants

Given he was undrafted, signed as a free agent, not a pitcher and 5'7" he will be fortunate to be more than two years of A ball roster filler. If he wants to get in on coaching it's a good move. If he ever wants to pay off the 150K he just delaying reality two more years. However, doesn't he have to start paying off the loan now that he's out of college and employed? Not that $1200 a month will help much.

Not necessarily.  He could keep going to school working towards his masters, but he will have to pay the piper eventually.  I agree it is too much debt to take on.

Swampboy posted:

Schools that offer baseball scholarships generally do so not because baseball significantly helps accomplish these objectives but because it's baked into the cost structure of a complete D1 or D2 athletic program. I don't think any baseball programs make money for their schools.

***************************************************************

I don't have figures to support my position but just off the top of my head, I would be surprised if Mississippi State and LSU don't make money on their baseball. Probably Arkansas too and maybe TAMU.  They may be unique but with their season ticket holders support and number of people that normally attend games, I believe they make money on their baseball.

 

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