Excellent Article on 11.7 at D1 level

lionbaseball posted:

RJM posted:

12pitches posted:

In the business world we refer to it as bait and switch.  Oh here is where your locker will be and here is all the free stuff you will get and you will be a rock star on campus - reality thanks for coming out we don't need you.  Aside from the practice being highly unethical, it is really just bad business.  However, when there are no rules to protect the kids, its just explained away as business as usual and the kid shoulda worked harder/been better or made a better decision. What if we had a rule that you recruit them, they follow the rules, you commit to them for 4 years?

It isn't bait and switch. If you're offered 25% you're going to be paying 75%. If you're offered a walk on opportunity you're paying the entire bill. That's not bait and switch. It's a take it or leave it offer. It's the same as buying anything expensive. The person has to ask, "Can I afford it?" Or "Can I afford the payments?" and make a sensible decision. Anyone owing $150K didn't make a sensible decision. Marx chose the Lexus when he can only afford the payments on the Chevy.

How many stories have we heard on this site alone where a coach takes away the scholarship of a 2nd year player to give to an incoming freshman?  Or the coach leaves and the new coach comes in takes away scholarships?  Nothing is guaranteed year to year and trying to rely on baseball money is a recipe for disaster.   

If my son doesn't get into a military academy he will most likely go straight into the military and at 22 yrs old will have his GI bill to pay for his college.  And if he wants to play baseball will still have that opportunity. 

You make a good point.  This happens all the time.  Coaches lowering or taking away scholarships, but yet the kids don't have the freedom to move.  Very unfair IMHO.  Especially for walk ons.

lionbaseball posted:

Hmmmm...... 

 

A friend's daughter decided to change her major to sociology at Georgetown. Dad said no way in hell is he paying 60K per year for a sociology degree. He told her if she wants that major she can come home, do the first two years at the local JuCo and the next two years at one of the low end state universities. End of sociology career.

Matt Reiland posted:

RJM posted:

rynoattack posted:

Great article.  Thanks for sharing!  I agree with most that falling that far into debt is not a wise decision.  It's great that he got a ring, but think about the excitement/buzz this kid created for college baseball, and he gets left with owing a $150K.  Doesn't really seem fair. 

As TPM said earlier, I am not sure this happens much at the Power 5 level, because when we were speaking to a Power 5 school, the HC said that he doesn't have kids on his team that use student loans.  So I think these coaches make every attempt to make it affordable for their kids.  Not sure that the CC HC did right by this young man.

It would be nice if a wealthy alumnus/supporter of the team offered to pay half for the enjoyment the team brought him. Then I woke up.

This thought got me thinking, and I don't know enough about NCAA rules to know the answer, but here's a "what-if":

What if a strong alumni network for a particular school decided that they were going to set up a trust, or an endowment of sorts.  Independent and unaffiliated with the school, but with the intent of directing money from the trust to pay off half (or 75%, or 100%) of student loan debt for all graduating baseball players.  AFTER graduation, when the player is no longer subject to NCAA rules.  No written agreement that this will happen, no signed contracts, just an alumni network helping out fellow alumni.

Is there anything in place to stop this from happening?  If there are no roadblocks, how come this isn't done more often?  It would be a huge recruiting tool, and would have most likely changed my college baseball career.  Imagine - "I can offer you a 25% scholarship, but the remaining 75% of the $50k out of state tuition is on you.  But, when you graduate, all your student loans will be paid off."

Some schools will obviously have advantages with a stronger alumni support network, but I wonder how this might change the college baseball landscape...

I don't know what the rules are now. But in the 90's USC alumni/boosters were endowing positions on the football team.

LA Times 1986  

http://articles.latimes.com/19..._1_usc-football-team

RJM posted:

A friend's daughter decided to change her major to sociology at Georgetown. Dad said no way in hell is he paying 60K per year for a sociology degree. He told her if she wants that major she can come home, do the first two years at the local JuCo and the next two years at one of the low end state universities. End of sociology career.

That's a smart Dad.  One of the best things I did with my oldest son is tell him I wasn't giving him a dime for college, it was all on him.  He worked his tail off, got good grades and found academic scholarship money.   He now has one year left at an elite East Coast grad school and has guaranteed employment with the United States Foreign Service all lined up for when he graduates.

He told me "Dad, I was angry at you at first when you said you wouldn't help pay for college, but looking back I probably would have been like those other kids in my dorm freshman year who were screwing around & partying too much and getting C's.  Once I knew it was all on me and that I had to get great grades to get & keep scholarship money, I worked a lot harder.  And I still had some fun, too."

As a freshman at the U of Texas in 1984, if I remember right, my tuition was well under $1,000 per semester.

RJM posted:

lionbaseball posted:

Hmmmm...... 

 

A friend's daughter decided to change her major to sociology at Georgetown. Dad said no way in hell is he paying 60K per year for a sociology degree. He told her if she wants that major she can come home, do the first two years at the local JuCo and the next two years at one of the low end state universities. End of sociology career.

Not that one shouldn't be careful with cost/benefit analysis on what degree to pursue and how expensive a college at which to do so, I think it's generally a little flippant to just dismiss degrees that don't have an immediate job cachet attached to them.

It is possible to major in Philosophy (or almost anything) and still come out of school with a viable career path and a manageable debt situation. That's probably even more the case the better the academic reputation of the school. The calculus on a Philosophy degree at Harvard when your parents make less than $100K/year is way different than on even a Mathematics degree at CC when your parents make $250K/year and live in Florida.

My oldest, non athlete son wanted to change his major to philosophy.  He is in the Business Honors Program at UT and they are paying his full tuition for 4 years.  I said no way, but since he had earned a large scholarship, we would pay for him to stay a 5th year to get a second degree in philosophy.  Some day he will thank me for the ability to pay his rent, but until then, I understand that  philosophy is important to him.  I am willing to pay for that 5th year because he has taken his studies seriously and has been very responsible with the money we provide for non-tuition expenses.  He is fully aware that he must uphold his end of the bargain. 

All this to say that I am a parent.  It is my job to guide my son whose frontal cortex is not fully developed and who doesn't have the world experience to understand what a significant debt or major which won't pay the bills will do to his future.  Too many parents don't parent.  They buy into the dream of their kid playing in the MLB.  One can love their child and support their dreams while still living in reality.

jacjacatk posted:

RJM posted:

lionbaseball posted:

Hmmmm...... 

 

A friend's daughter decided to change her major to sociology at Georgetown. Dad said no way in hell is he paying 60K per year for a sociology degree. He told her if she wants that major she can come home, do the first two years at the local JuCo and the next two years at one of the low end state universities. End of sociology career.

Not that one shouldn't be careful with cost/benefit analysis on what degree to pursue and how expensive a college at which to do so, I think it's generally a little flippant to just dismiss degrees that don't have an immediate job cachet attached to them.

It is possible to major in Philosophy (or almost anything) and still come out of school with a viable career path and a manageable debt situation. That's probably even more the case the better the academic reputation of the school. The calculus on a Philosophy degree at Harvard when your parents make less than $100K/year is way different than on even a Mathematics degree at CC when your parents make $250K/year and live in Florida.

It's really just a cost / benefit thing.  My kid is looking at three possible paths.  Engineering, Business and teaching/coaching.  If engineering, we'll pay up to just about anywhere as the likelihood of a solid income is there.  Business, we'll be a little more careful.  But if he gets into a top program at a top school, we'll spend the money.  If teaching, then he is going in state as the teacher's salary just won't keep up with the cost of the degree (which even in state isn't cheap).   

Golfman25 posted:

jacjacatk posted:

RJM posted:

lionbaseball posted:

Hmmmm...... 

 

A friend's daughter decided to change her major to sociology at Georgetown. Dad said no way in hell is he paying 60K per year for a sociology degree. He told her if she wants that major she can come home, do the first two years at the local JuCo and the next two years at one of the low end state universities. End of sociology career.

Not that one shouldn't be careful with cost/benefit analysis on what degree to pursue and how expensive a college at which to do so, I think it's generally a little flippant to just dismiss degrees that don't have an immediate job cachet attached to them.

It is possible to major in Philosophy (or almost anything) and still come out of school with a viable career path and a manageable debt situation. That's probably even more the case the better the academic reputation of the school. The calculus on a Philosophy degree at Harvard when your parents make less than $100K/year is way different than on even a Mathematics degree at CC when your parents make $250K/year and live in Florida.

It's really just a cost / benefit thing.  My kid is looking at three possible paths.  Engineering, Business and teaching/coaching.  If engineering, we'll pay up to just about anywhere as the likelihood of a solid income is there.  Business, we'll be a little more careful.  But if he gets into a top program at a top school, we'll spend the money.  If teaching, then he is going in state as the teacher's salary just won't keep up with the cost of the degree (which even in state isn't cheap).   

I was a philosophy major. It's a good major if you're thinking ahead to graduate school. When I graduated, I couldn't find one single listing for a sophist in the want ads, so it was either McDonald's or law school. I'm still not sure if I chose correctly.

Golfman25 posted:

 

 

It's really just a cost / benefit thing.  My kid is looking at three possible paths.  Engineering, Business and teaching/coaching.  If engineering, we'll pay up to just about anywhere as the likelihood of a solid income is there.  Business, we'll be a little more careful.  But if he gets into a top program at a top school, we'll spend the money.  If teaching, then he is going in state as the teacher's salary just won't keep up with the cost of the degree (which even in state isn't cheap).   

It is a cost / benefit thing, but these can be perceived differently. For example, I have one kid in college at a very good engineering school, and I'm very happy about that, but I do think that before long students in STEM fields, particularly engineering, are going see a lot of competition for work, even without 1B visas making it even more difficult.  In business, well yeah, but  there's a big difference in business degrees.  All the accounting majors and most of the finance majors I've known have never lacked for work.  As for teaching/coaching, the benefit, hopefully, is job satisfaction. And where we are a couple with 2 teachers salaries are not rich but can live -- and retire -- very nicely.

The real issue here is that easy student loans have driven up the cost of college.  I started college in 1983 and it was feasible to have a part time job and a good summer job pay for the majority of college. 

Go44dad posted:

Golfman25 posted:

Go44dad posted:

Golfman25 posted:

I don't see the big deal about the kid being in debt and playing baseball.  He's just like any other student and got to play a game he loved.  Had he not been a baseball player, he probably would have the same issue.  The number of college students in big time debt is unconscionable.  Tuition keeps going up and up, and the pushers keep giving them money.  Moral of the story is make sure your degree can support the payback of the debt.  Not many can. 

Debt is a big deal.  And he is no longer playing baseball.  

How is that different from average joe college student?  

The monthly loan repayment is the same, baseball player or non sports playing student.  In theory, the baseball player has a better support system around him?  Maybe it was his choice.

It can be overcome and paid back.  Sleep on a couch with four roommates in a cheap apartment, eat spaghetti every night for ten years, ride a bike to work.  Sounds kinda like the minor leagues?

Teach your kids finance, and the time value of money.

I feel sorry for Marks, and other graduates with really high debt loads with degrees with low starting salaries.

Feel sorry for Marks?   I feel sorry for whoever he competes with when he decides what it is he wants to do with his life!   This kid had no business in a D1 baseball field.  5 ft 7. Terrible slap hitting swing.  Below average arm.  He is fast.   I'll give him that.   what  he is is a winner.   He's an animal.   He had the gall to think he could walk on and make it at a d1 program when his only other option was point park in Pittsburgh.   No one even knew him around here.    Not only makes the team but leads them to the national championship ???   That can't happen.  But it did.   I have a feeling he's going to be fine.   Id hire him in two seconds over a kid with a business degree from Harvard 

pabaseballdad posted:

Go44dad posted:

Golfman25 posted:

Go44dad posted:

Golfman25 posted:

I don't see the big deal about the kid being in debt and playing baseball.  He's just like any other student and got to play a game he loved.  Had he not been a baseball player, he probably would have the same issue.  The number of college students in big time debt is unconscionable.  Tuition keeps going up and up, and the pushers keep giving them money.  Moral of the story is make sure your degree can support the payback of the debt.  Not many can. 

Debt is a big deal.  And he is no longer playing baseball.  

How is that different from average joe college student?  

The monthly loan repayment is the same, baseball player or non sports playing student.  In theory, the baseball player has a better support system around him?  Maybe it was his choice.

It can be overcome and paid back.  Sleep on a couch with four roommates in a cheap apartment, eat spaghetti every night for ten years, ride a bike to work.  Sounds kinda like the minor leagues?

Teach your kids finance, and the time value of money.

I feel sorry for Marks, and other graduates with really high debt loads with degrees with low starting salaries.

Feel sorry for Marks?   I feel sorry for whoever he competes with when he decides what it is he wants to do with his life!   This kid had no business in a D1 baseball field.  5 ft 7. Terrible slap hitting swing.  Below average arm.  He is fast.   I'll give him that.   what  he is is a winner.   He's an animal.   He had the gall to think he could walk on and make it at a d1 program when his only other option was point park in Pittsburgh.   No one even knew him around here.    Not only makes the team but leads them to the national championship ???   That can't happen.  But it did.   I have a feeling he's going to be fine.   Id hire him in two seconds over a kid with a business degree from Harvard 

I agree!  But lion or lamb, payment is still $1300 a month.

Someone will hire him based on his competitiveness.

It would be nice to know more details, his story.  But it's also his private story.

Go44dad posted:

pabaseballdad posted:

Go44dad posted:

Golfman25 posted:

Go44dad posted:

Golfman25 posted:

I don't see the big deal about the kid being in debt and playing baseball.  He's just like any other student and got to play a game he loved.  Had he not been a baseball player, he probably would have the same issue.  The number of college students in big time debt is unconscionable.  Tuition keeps going up and up, and the pushers keep giving them money.  Moral of the story is make sure your degree can support the payback of the debt.  Not many can. 

Debt is a big deal.  And he is no longer playing baseball.  

How is that different from average joe college student?  

The monthly loan repayment is the same, baseball player or non sports playing student.  In theory, the baseball player has a better support system around him?  Maybe it was his choice.

It can be overcome and paid back.  Sleep on a couch with four roommates in a cheap apartment, eat spaghetti every night for ten years, ride a bike to work.  Sounds kinda like the minor leagues?

Teach your kids finance, and the time value of money.

I feel sorry for Marks, and other graduates with really high debt loads with degrees with low starting salaries.

Feel sorry for Marks?   I feel sorry for whoever he competes with when he decides what it is he wants to do with his life!   This kid had no business in a D1 baseball field.  5 ft 7. Terrible slap hitting swing.  Below average arm.  He is fast.   I'll give him that.   what  he is is a winner.   He's an animal.   He had the gall to think he could walk on and make it at a d1 program when his only other option was point park in Pittsburgh.   No one even knew him around here.    Not only makes the team but leads them to the national championship ???   That can't happen.  But it did.   I have a feeling he's going to be fine.   Id hire him in two seconds over a kid with a business degree from Harvard 

I agree!  But lion or lamb, payment is still $1300 a month.

Someone will hire him based on his competitiveness.

It would be nice to know more details, his story.  But it's also his private story.

Here's where I never understand people when it comes to student loans. I hear these stories about kids making $30k a year with $1600/mo. student loan bills. They are either full of it or stupid. Anyone is eligible for payments based on income. Income based payments for someone making $30k to $40k per year will bring payments down below $100 a month. When your income goes up, your payments go up. Then, after 20 years, the rest can be forgiven. If you're a teacher or in public service it's much better. You can pay income driven payments for 10 years and have it forgiven then. Anyone paying those huge amounts is either making very good money are isn't smart enough to fill out an application for a payment based on income.

Go44dad posted:

pabaseballdad posted:

Go44dad posted:

Golfman25 posted:

Go44dad posted:

Golfman25 posted:

I don't see the big deal about the kid being in debt and playing baseball.  He's just like any other student and got to play a game he loved.  Had he not been a baseball player, he probably would have the same issue.  The number of college students in big time debt is unconscionable.  Tuition keeps going up and up, and the pushers keep giving them money.  Moral of the story is make sure your degree can support the payback of the debt.  Not many can. 

Debt is a big deal.  And he is no longer playing baseball.  

How is that different from average joe college student?  

The monthly loan repayment is the same, baseball player or non sports playing student.  In theory, the baseball player has a better support system around him?  Maybe it was his choice.

It can be overcome and paid back.  Sleep on a couch with four roommates in a cheap apartment, eat spaghetti every night for ten years, ride a bike to work.  Sounds kinda like the minor leagues?

Teach your kids finance, and the time value of money.

I feel sorry for Marks, and other graduates with really high debt loads with degrees with low starting salaries.

Feel sorry for Marks?   I feel sorry for whoever he competes with when he decides what it is he wants to do with his life!   This kid had no business in a D1 baseball field.  5 ft 7. Terrible slap hitting swing.  Below average arm.  He is fast.   I'll give him that.   what  he is is a winner.   He's an animal.   He had the gall to think he could walk on and make it at a d1 program when his only other option was point park in Pittsburgh.   No one even knew him around here.    Not only makes the team but leads them to the national championship ???   That can't happen.  But it did.   I have a feeling he's going to be fine.   Id hire him in two seconds over a kid with a business degree from Harvard 

I agree!  But lion or lamb, payment is still $1300 a month.

Someone will hire him based on his competitiveness.

It would be nice to know more details, his story.  But it's also his private story.

http://www.baseballamerica.com...#XoI7EkZZ85631YVV.97

Good old article on him in baseball America 

Swampboy posted:

It's easy to compare the limited baseball scholarships to the scholarships available to football, basketball, or softball players and conclude that baseball players are getting a bad deal.

And it's true that years of political horse trading have created a status quo that's hard to respect as a model of consistency or equity.

But it's also true that in a completely unregulated market, there would probably be fewer baseball scholarships, not more.

Schools that offer athletic scholarships value sports because they promote the college brand, increase tribal loyalty, enrich campus life, and draw in potential students.

Schools that offer baseball scholarships generally do so not because baseball significantly helps accomplish these objectives but because it's baked into the cost structure of a complete D1 or D2 athletic program. I don't think any baseball programs make money for their schools.

If schools were free to sponsor sports on an a la carte basis and free to offer scholarships based only on their own sense of value, there wouldn't be many baseball scholarships.

So the NCAA offers the worst possible system for baseball players--unless you compare it to what baseball players would have without it.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Never understood why this perspective isn't acknowledged here more often.  Most baseball programs lose significant money.  Thank goodness for the system that is currently in place that is somehow keeping college baseball alive across a broad spectrum.

roothog66 posted:

If you're a teacher or in public service it's much better. You can pay income driven payments for 10 years and have it forgiven then. 

Ummmm...can you explain or tell me where to find more info on this part? Never heard of it.

On the teacher side, you can get some or all of your loans forgiven for teaching in a Title I school for 5 years, and you can defer them while completing the 5 years. IIRC, there's a limit on the forgiveness that's substantially below the kind of number Marks' would need, and you have to teach in an area of need (STEM or SpEd) to get the most out of it.

Different states/local school districts may offer more than that, I think that's just the Federal program.

https://studentaid.ed.gov/sa/r...ation/public-service

A good place to start looking.

Yes, I've looked there but I don't see anything about forgiveness after 10 years.  I know about the Title I stuff, but I don't want  my wife working in any of the Title I schools around here. 

If there is a 10 year plan I can't find anything about it. Just checking to see if you knew any specifics.

I'll give you an example (went and looked up the numbers). My wife just got her degree two years ago. She left college with app. $89K in student loan debt. She teaches Special Education. She makes $31K/yr. Her student loan payments would be $841/mo. However, she pays on an income driven plan. She pays $36/mo. After 120 payments the remaining debt will be forgiven. I work for the State Government. I would also qualify. Anyone working for any level of government is eligible.

Which means she will pay only around $3k of her loans back. This is the equivalent of $85,000 of extra pay over her lifetime. Actually a lot more, considering interest. To me, this is a great incentive for teachers to take jobs in areas or fields that are under-represented.

That's awesome. I'm guessing this is something your state does? I can't find any federal program like that, and nothing in Texas. I could use that help.

https://studentaid.ed.gov/sa/r...cancellation/teacher

It's a little tricky, but it works like this. There is a five year plan for teachers that completely forgives, but only up to $17,500. If you work for a public school, however, you can use the gov't/public service route on the 120 payment plan. I'm not entirely sure if this is because my wife is considered to be working for the county government or because it's a public service field, but she qualified. She could also have gone the 5 year route, but was advised not to because of the amount of debt. She was advised by the school district HR department. There are a lot of private companies that advise on this, but most look like scams.

ironhorse posted:

That's awesome. I'm guessing this is something your state does? I can't find any federal program like that, and nothing in Texas. I could use that help.

Awesome is word for it, as a taxpayer who doesn't work for the government I would probably use a different term...just sayin

ironhorse posted:

That's awesome. I'm guessing this is something your state does? I can't find any federal program like that, and nothing in Texas. I could use that help.

The PSLF was passed under the same general bill that gave us the Affordable care Act. It slipped in under the radar. Any government employ at any level automatically qualifies. Working for a non-profit in public service I believe also is automatic. Otherwise, you have to have your employment approved as public service. For teachers, you have to meet certain qualifications. here is a link to a directory of schools for which teachers are all eligible:

https://www.tcli.ed.gov/CBSWeb...IPubSchoolSearch.jsp

old_school posted:

ironhorse posted:

That's awesome. I'm guessing this is something your state does? I can't find any federal program like that, and nothing in Texas. I could use that help.

Awesome is word for it, as a taxpayer who doesn't work for the government I would probably use a different term...just sayin

Well, we bitch and moan about the quality of teachers and how they are underpaid, but we do nothing about it. This is how we draw more qualified people into the field. I guess the school district could just up property taxes more, but then only homeowners would be paying for better teachers.

old_school posted:

ironhorse posted:

That's awesome. I'm guessing this is something your state does? I can't find any federal program like that, and nothing in Texas. I could use that help.

Awesome is word for it, as a taxpayer who doesn't work for the government I would probably use a different term...just sayin

Yes. Because as a teacher and coach I'm obviously one of those members of society not pulling my weight and deserving of the occasional break.

If they are needing to offer incentives to hire teachers or government employees it's because they can't find enough. So rather than complain you can do your part and quit your job and start teaching, and that will cut down on the need for such incentives...just sayin.

roothog66 posted:

The PSLF was passed under the same general bill that gave us the Affordable care Act. It slipped in under the radar. Any government employ at any level automatically qualifies. Working for a non-profit in public service I believe also is automatic. Otherwise, you have to have your employment approved as public service. For teachers, you have to meet certain qualifications. here is a link to a directory of schools for which teachers are all eligible:

https://www.tcli.ed.gov/CBSWeb...IPubSchoolSearch.jsp

Thank you, sir. I'll check it out.

ironhorse posted:

roothog66 posted:

If you're a teacher or in public service it's much better. You can pay income driven payments for 10 years and have it forgiven then. 

Ummmm...can you explain or tell me where to find more info on this part? Never heard of it.

I haven't heard of it.  I'm just the "debt is bad" guy.  If you can send me to the info, that would be great.

https://studentaid.ed.gov/sa/r...ans/understand/plans

https://studentaid.ed.gov/sa/r...ation/public-service

I wasn't actually aware of these (started teaching 2 years ago, modest amount of debt to get there), but eyeballing it looks like it could save me from ultimately paying about half my loans.

You basically have to get on an income based repayment plan, and as long as you're willing to bet that you'll do the 10 years of required work, go for the plan with the lowest required current repayment (to maximize remaining balance at the 10 year mark). There's not a lot of downside risk, at least in my case.  You defer interest by being on an income plan, so effectively end up paying back more if you lose the "bet" about being willing to do the 10 years of required employment, but in my case I'd only be on the hook for around $2K more total if I don't make it to 10 years, vs potentially saving several times that amount.

roothog66 posted:

old_school posted:

ironhorse posted:

That's awesome. I'm guessing this is something your state does? I can't find any federal program like that, and nothing in Texas. I could use that help.

Awesome is word for it, as a taxpayer who doesn't work for the government I would probably use a different term...just sayin

Well, we bitch and moan about the quality of teachers and how they are underpaid, but we do nothing about it. This is how we draw more qualified people into the field. I guess the school district could just up property taxes more, but then only homeowners would be paying for better teachers.

Teacher pay is awful. Starting pay in our district out of college is $51K. PhD+ is over $100K. A teacher commented they earn every penny dealing with know it all parents. I once got irritated dealing with the know it all (We know what's best for your child more than you do. We're trained for this.) teachers and advisors.

RJM posted:

roothog66 posted:

old_school posted:

ironhorse posted:

That's awesome. I'm guessing this is something your state does? I can't find any federal program like that, and nothing in Texas. I could use that help.

Awesome is word for it, as a taxpayer who doesn't work for the government I would probably use a different term...just sayin

Well, we bitch and moan about the quality of teachers and how they are underpaid, but we do nothing about it. This is how we draw more qualified people into the field. I guess the school district could just up property taxes more, but then only homeowners would be paying for better teachers.

Teacher pay is awful. Starting pay in our district out of college is $51K. PhD+ is over $100K. A teacher commented they earn every penny dealing with know it all parents. I once got irritated dealing with the know it all (We know what's best for your child more than you do. We're trained for this.) teachers and advisors.

Citation needed.

Even ignoring cost of living, the US top decile is around $90K and median is about $56K (http://money.usnews.com/career...chool-teacher/salary), and the vast majority of teachers earning at that level have at least a Master's.  New York and a couple of other NE states lead the US in teacher pay, and while it's certainly possible that the numbers you cite are correct for one of those areas, the COL is markedly higher there as well.

Here's the district I worked in last year, http://www.fultonschools.org/e...20Salary-Teacher.pdf. Assuming you can get a job in that district straight out of school (not a given), starting bachelor's pay is $44K and with 25 years in and a PHD you don't get to $100K, and that's one of the better paying districts in GA, which all things considered isn't a terrible place to be a teacher.

I did 15 years in the normal corporate world, and made more 15 years ago than I do now.  Teaching is substantially more actual work than any of the corporate jobs I've held, though the side benefits of doing that work within a school year schedule are nice, especially with school age kids, and I actually find teaching far more enjoyable. I would invite anyone who thinks it's "easy" or whatever to man up and quit their existing job and join us.

roothog66 posted:

old_school posted:

ironhorse posted:

That's awesome. I'm guessing this is something your state does? I can't find any federal program like that, and nothing in Texas. I could use that help.

Awesome is word for it, as a taxpayer who doesn't work for the government I would probably use a different term...just sayin

Well, we bitch and moan about the quality of teachers and how they are underpaid, but we do nothing about it. This is how we draw more qualified people into the field. I guess the school district could just up property taxes more, but then only homeowners would be paying for better teachers.

my brother is a teacher, works hard does great job. makes a good solid income, top rate at 90k for a job with tenure and a pension is that is so it good it is bankrupting the state funds....all I am saying is they, being public employees, should pay for their own debt like every other profession.

The thought that public employees are unpaid is factually incorrect, you can do the research for yourself but it is true. The compensation curve changed years ago and is actually accelerating the other way.

old_school posted:

my brother is a teacher, works hard does great job. makes a good solid income, top rate at 90k for a job with tenure and a pension is that is so it good it is bankrupting the state funds....all I am saying is they, being public employees, should pay for their own debt like every other profession.

The thought that public employees are unpaid is factually incorrect, you can do the research for yourself but it is true. The compensation curve changed years ago and is actually accelerating the other way.

The idea that front-line teacher pay/benefits is bankrupting states is ludicrous. Teacher retention is a huge problem in a lot of areas, especially in STEM, which is good evidence that pay/benefits are too low in those places, as is the fact that there aren't tons of people jumping at the opportunity to fill those jobs.

Just like a lot of public goods, where there's no obvious profit in providing them, it's easy to dismiss/vilify teachers. 

old_school posted:

roothog66 posted:

old_school posted:

ironhorse posted:

That's awesome. I'm guessing this is something your state does? I can't find any federal program like that, and nothing in Texas. I could use that help.

Awesome is word for it, as a taxpayer who doesn't work for the government I would probably use a different term...just sayin

Well, we bitch and moan about the quality of teachers and how they are underpaid, but we do nothing about it. This is how we draw more qualified people into the field. I guess the school district could just up property taxes more, but then only homeowners would be paying for better teachers.

my brother is a teacher, works hard does great job. makes a good solid income, top rate at 90k for a job with tenure and a pension is that is so it good it is bankrupting the state funds....all I am saying is they, being public employees, should pay for their own debt like every other profession.

The thought that public employees are unpaid is factually incorrect, you can do the research for yourself but it is true. The compensation curve changed years ago and is actually accelerating the other way.

Proud of your brother. That's awesome. My reality is busting my butt for $55k. If I do it for 20 more years I'll be at $67k. No tenure. Not complaining. I love my job. But for you to act sanctimonious about me taking advantage of a government program to help with student loan debt is an a-hole move plain and simple. Sorry you disagree with it, but since you don't know me you can shove your opinion up your you know what. 

jacjacatk posted:

old_school posted:

my brother is a teacher, works hard does great job. makes a good solid income, top rate at 90k for a job with tenure and a pension is that is so it good it is bankrupting the state funds....all I am saying is they, being public employees, should pay for their own debt like every other profession.

The thought that public employees are unpaid is factually incorrect, you can do the research for yourself but it is true. The compensation curve changed years ago and is actually accelerating the other way.

The idea that front-line teacher pay/benefits is bankrupting states is ludicrous. Teacher retention is a huge problem in a lot of areas, especially in STEM, which is good evidence that pay/benefits are too low in those places, as is the fact that there aren't tons of people jumping at the opportunity to fill those jobs.

Just like a lot of public goods, where there's no obvious profit in providing them, it's easy to dismiss/vilify teachers. 

Not in mine brother, 30 years and retire at 90 percent pension for the rest of your life....it is sweet heart of deal that nobody could ever get again. Our district has 100 plus applicants for 6 or 8 jobs a year.  almost all of the new full timers spend a year or 2 as full time sub to get in the door. as long as you show up and make an effort it the safest job you could get with good money at the top and lifetime pension...so they could at least pay their own college bills...like everyone else.

I do the love the sorry story but it doesn't hold water.

ironhorse posted:

old_school posted:

roothog66 posted:

old_school posted:

ironhorse posted:

That's awesome. I'm guessing this is something your state does? I can't find any federal program like that, and nothing in Texas. I could use that help.

Awesome is word for it, as a taxpayer who doesn't work for the government I would probably use a different term...just sayin

Well, we bitch and moan about the quality of teachers and how they are underpaid, but we do nothing about it. This is how we draw more qualified people into the field. I guess the school district could just up property taxes more, but then only homeowners would be paying for better teachers.

my brother is a teacher, works hard does great job. makes a good solid income, top rate at 90k for a job with tenure and a pension is that is so it good it is bankrupting the state funds....all I am saying is they, being public employees, should pay for their own debt like every other profession.

The thought that public employees are unpaid is factually incorrect, you can do the research for yourself but it is true. The compensation curve changed years ago and is actually accelerating the other way.

Proud of your brother. That's awesome. My reality is busting my butt for $55k. If I do it for 20 more years I'll be at $67k. No tenure. Not complaining. I love my job. But for you to act sanctimonious about me taking advantage of a government program to help with student loan debt is an a-hole move plain and simple. Sorry you disagree with it, but since you don't know me you can shove your opinion up your you know what. 

didn't say you shouldn't take advantage of it, just said I didn't like the program...kind of different.

old_school posted:

jacjacatk posted:

old_school posted:

my brother is a teacher, works hard does great job. makes a good solid income, top rate at 90k for a job with tenure and a pension is that is so it good it is bankrupting the state funds....all I am saying is they, being public employees, should pay for their own debt like every other profession.

The thought that public employees are unpaid is factually incorrect, you can do the research for yourself but it is true. The compensation curve changed years ago and is actually accelerating the other way.

The idea that front-line teacher pay/benefits is bankrupting states is ludicrous. Teacher retention is a huge problem in a lot of areas, especially in STEM, which is good evidence that pay/benefits are too low in those places, as is the fact that there aren't tons of people jumping at the opportunity to fill those jobs.

Just like a lot of public goods, where there's no obvious profit in providing them, it's easy to dismiss/vilify teachers. 

Not in mine brother, 30 years and retire at 90 percent pension for the rest of your life....it is sweet heart of deal that nobody could ever get again. Our district has 100 plus applicants for 6 or 8 jobs a year.  almost all of the new full timers spend a year or 2 as full time sub to get in the door. as long as you show up and make an effort it the safest job you could get with good money at the top and lifetime pension...so they could at least pay their own college bills...like everyone else.

I do the love the sorry story but it doesn't hold water.

It doesn't hold water where you live. Which is obviously the only place in America. 

http://www.yankeeinstitute.org...-papers/unequal-pay/

"Part of the reason is because portions of the state budget are growing at a much faster pace than the economy as a whole. In particular, the growth in pay and benefits of state employees — which already accounts for more than a third of the state budget — is far outpacing Connecticut’s economic growth. This study examines how public employees are compensated, and why the growth in state worker compensation has become unsustainable."