What's the best way to handle a situation where your son is throwing too many pitches in the high school season? How should the player approach the coaches? And at what point do you step in as a parent?
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First of all how do you know if it is too many ?
Many variables here
The body of the pitcher
The time between appearances
The weather
The stress factor in the game---one huge pitch inning can do a pitcher in
Saw Tom seaver in an interview recently and he stated that even when he was pitching they had pitch counts but each pitcher was a different animal---he could go to 130---nolan ryan could go to 150 to 160
There is no general rule at the HS level, at least for me
Many variables here
The body of the pitcher
The time between appearances
The weather
The stress factor in the game---one huge pitch inning can do a pitcher in
Saw Tom seaver in an interview recently and he stated that even when he was pitching they had pitch counts but each pitcher was a different animal---he could go to 130---nolan ryan could go to 150 to 160
There is no general rule at the HS level, at least for me
Would over 250 in less than 7 days be too many?
I would say so in general
BUT
what were the conditions?
BUT
what were the conditions?
TRHIT I will send you a PM later this evening. I'm on my way to another game. 
I guess it's a good thing that my coach has a quick hook. At least for arm safety reasons.
quote:Originally posted by sportsmomof2:
Would over 250 in less than 7 days be too many?
Lot of factors to consider here - conditioning of pitcher, how much he plays at other spots, what he does in the off days - but 250 in 7 days can be manageable.
For instance he could start on Tuesday and throw 125 and come back on Monday with another 125 and probably wouldn't hurt him. May affect him later in the season.
Now if he went 25 - 30 about every other day then I would be worried on the cumulative effects in the 7 days.
i would think this early in the year, that is too many pitches. most all of the country has been chilly the last few weeks, so more than likely the weather wasn't great.
in high school i would think 100 should be tops in a game. that may be 200 in 7 day's, but if you count a bp to warm up before. assume 6 or 7 pitches between innings there is another 40 or 50. i know these aren't counted throw's but........
lot's of throwing early in the season, Tom Seaver he isn't. Tommy John maybe.
in high school i would think 100 should be tops in a game. that may be 200 in 7 day's, but if you count a bp to warm up before. assume 6 or 7 pitches between innings there is another 40 or 50. i know these aren't counted throw's but........
lot's of throwing early in the season, Tom Seaver he isn't. Tommy John maybe.
You are not your son's agent. Your son should talk to the coach. All you should do is help your son with what he's going to say.quote:And at what point do you step in as a parent?
I've been down that road. So has my son. If a kid goes 120+ pitches, there can be a negative effect on the quality of following starts. I am assuming proper conditioning, nutrition rest between starts, ect. Studies of MLB pitchers confirm a drop in quality following high pitch counts.
It generally takes more than a week to come back from a 120-130 pitch outing and pitch well, based on our experience.
Of course the long term negative effects of high counts has been long been a source of controversy.
Step in when ever you feel it is appropriate. Don't get conned into the myth of the unapproachable coach. There is no such thing. Step in, I say, if needed. It is probably best for the player to try to handle the situation first. If that doesn't work, then step in.
100 pitches with 5 days rest is plenty for high school.
It generally takes more than a week to come back from a 120-130 pitch outing and pitch well, based on our experience.
Of course the long term negative effects of high counts has been long been a source of controversy.
Step in when ever you feel it is appropriate. Don't get conned into the myth of the unapproachable coach. There is no such thing. Step in, I say, if needed. It is probably best for the player to try to handle the situation first. If that doesn't work, then step in.
100 pitches with 5 days rest is plenty for high school.
High School. 250 pitches in 7 days is excessive period. I dont care how well he is conditioned or what the circumstances are. There is no game worth putting that kind of stress on a kids arm. There will be consequences at some point and time and it may not show up now , it may not show up in a month but it will show up at some point and time.
When does and how does a parent step in in a situation where they believe their child is being abused? First of all you shouldnt have to. The coach should have enough sense to not put a player in that type of situation in the first place. But if he does the player should be educated to the point that he steps up and speaks for himself first. If that does not work then it is the parents right to and its the parents responsibility to step up for their child.
Why would you feel intimidated to approach a "coach" that doesnt have enough sense to look after one of his players any better than this? The coach is the one that should feel the pressure and heat for doing something like this. Not the player or the parent. 125 pitches in one game for a High School player is excessive , period. I dont care what time of year it is , how well conditioned he is or how important the game may be. Is their any High School game worth your childs health?
You know what usually happens in these types of situations? The player is a player he wants to win and he loves to compete. He wants to pitch and he will go till his arm falls off if it thats what it takes to help his team win. That is what he is taught to do. He knows he has thrown a ton of pitches and he knows he probably should come out. But the competitive drive to win and the never quit attitude that makes him what he is kicks in and he is not going to take himself out. The parent knows the kid has thrown too many pitches. But they dont want to step on anyones shoes. They dont want to black ball their kid or cause any ill feelings with the coaches. So they sit there cringing at every pitch and praying he will not grab his elbow or shoulder at some point and time during the game. The "coach" says "He's a Bulldog , he's strong as a mule , he was getting stronger as the game went on."
Then when its too late and the kid develops a bad arm the player is relegated to the bench and trys to pitch through the pain at some point and time to get back out there. The parent sits in the stands and talks trash about the coaches for hurting their kids arm. The coach says the kid didnt warm up properly. But the damage is done.
Teach your kids to step up and protect themselves if the coach will not do his job. Teach them that is doesnt mean they dont care about the team and they are not a whimp for protecting their arm. And if the "coach" still doesnt get it then its your job to make sure he does. If he doesnt like it so what? What would you rather have. A hurt child that no one pd off. Or a healthy child that can continue to enjoy the game.
The parent is the players agent. They are the ones that will have to take him to the doctor and deal with the consequences along with their child. The coach will move on and coach other players. This is your child and ultimately your responsibility. We are talking High School baseball. Why would there ever be a need to pitch a High School kid 125 pitches in one game? Or 250 pitches in a 7 day period? What the hell is so important or on the line that would be that important? Someone please explain that to me.
When does and how does a parent step in in a situation where they believe their child is being abused? First of all you shouldnt have to. The coach should have enough sense to not put a player in that type of situation in the first place. But if he does the player should be educated to the point that he steps up and speaks for himself first. If that does not work then it is the parents right to and its the parents responsibility to step up for their child.
Why would you feel intimidated to approach a "coach" that doesnt have enough sense to look after one of his players any better than this? The coach is the one that should feel the pressure and heat for doing something like this. Not the player or the parent. 125 pitches in one game for a High School player is excessive , period. I dont care what time of year it is , how well conditioned he is or how important the game may be. Is their any High School game worth your childs health?
You know what usually happens in these types of situations? The player is a player he wants to win and he loves to compete. He wants to pitch and he will go till his arm falls off if it thats what it takes to help his team win. That is what he is taught to do. He knows he has thrown a ton of pitches and he knows he probably should come out. But the competitive drive to win and the never quit attitude that makes him what he is kicks in and he is not going to take himself out. The parent knows the kid has thrown too many pitches. But they dont want to step on anyones shoes. They dont want to black ball their kid or cause any ill feelings with the coaches. So they sit there cringing at every pitch and praying he will not grab his elbow or shoulder at some point and time during the game. The "coach" says "He's a Bulldog , he's strong as a mule , he was getting stronger as the game went on."
Then when its too late and the kid develops a bad arm the player is relegated to the bench and trys to pitch through the pain at some point and time to get back out there. The parent sits in the stands and talks trash about the coaches for hurting their kids arm. The coach says the kid didnt warm up properly. But the damage is done.
Teach your kids to step up and protect themselves if the coach will not do his job. Teach them that is doesnt mean they dont care about the team and they are not a whimp for protecting their arm. And if the "coach" still doesnt get it then its your job to make sure he does. If he doesnt like it so what? What would you rather have. A hurt child that no one pd off. Or a healthy child that can continue to enjoy the game.
The parent is the players agent. They are the ones that will have to take him to the doctor and deal with the consequences along with their child. The coach will move on and coach other players. This is your child and ultimately your responsibility. We are talking High School baseball. Why would there ever be a need to pitch a High School kid 125 pitches in one game? Or 250 pitches in a 7 day period? What the hell is so important or on the line that would be that important? Someone please explain that to me.
Great post Coach May.
Glad to see you back, missed your excellent advice.
Glad to see you back, missed your excellent advice.
Welcome back Coach May - and I could not agree more.
quote:Originally posted by Coach May:
You know what usually happens in these types of situations? The player is a player he wants to win and he loves to compete. He wants to pitch and he will go till his arm falls off if it thats what it takes to help his team win. That is what he is taught to do. He knows he has thrown a ton of pitches and he knows he probably should come out. But the competitive drive to win and the never quit attitude that makes him what he is kicks in and he is not going to take himself out. The parent knows the kid has thrown too many pitches. But they dont want to step on anyones shoes. They dont want to black ball their kid or cause any ill feelings with the coaches. So they sit there cringing at every pitch and praying he will not grab his elbow or shoulder at some point and time during the game. The "coach" says "He's a Bulldog , he's strong as a mule , he was getting stronger as the game went on."
This really describes the situation my son was in last week. He wanted to finish the game and I do hold him responsible as well - but I feel like we should be able to trust the coaches to do the right thing too.
Dad04 hit the nail on the head too, as his performance was somewhat lacking in the next outing. All of the pitches, were from 2 complete games 6 days apart and he is a position player as well and had 2 additional games in between.
It is time to sit down and have a long talk with our son.
quote:2 complete games 6 days apart and he is a position player as well and had 2 additional games in between.
It is time to sit down and have a long talk with our son.
sportsmomof2,
I think you are right. You need to help your son understand that he will not be able to pitch in the future if he allows himself to be over-used like this. Right now he probably needs to take a week off from any kind of throwing, and another week after that before he pitches again. Otherwise, the rest of this season is going to continue to take a toll on his arm, which will show up eventually.
Good luck to you, and let us know how he is doing.
Julie
I've been away for a few days. It's nice to see Coach May back. He came back with a home run. Great post. I agree 100%
The scary part of sportsmomof2's story is that this is just the beginning of the season. How long will the coach ride this kid for the next two months? Somebody should speak up. The kid first, then the parents if the situation doesn't change.
The scary part of sportsmomof2's story is that this is just the beginning of the season. How long will the coach ride this kid for the next two months? Somebody should speak up. The kid first, then the parents if the situation doesn't change.
The kid's job is to focus on the game. While the game is in progress he won't know his pitch count and really shouldn't be keeping track of it.
The key from a parent's perspective is to avoid any suggestion that you are trying to manage the team. Yes, pitchers lose efficacy as their pitch counts mount, but if you start arguing that the guy should come out because he's going to give up runs, you're arguing strategy, not safety.
A high school player is typically a minor or, if an adult, barely an adult. The ultimate responsibility for that minor's well being resides in his parents. If any coach suggests that you should stay out of safety or health decisions that affect your own child, he is wrong and deserves to be challenged.
Clearly this can get out of hand, and some folks can become ridiculous about interfering and then couching it in terms that would seem to justify what is really just butting in. But abuse of pitchers is an all too common situation and because it is an area where some coaches are prone to crossing the line, there's always going to be a tension there, and there will be times when it's appropriate for a parent to choose words carefully, to approach calmly and privately, and put your foot down. And if you don't get satisfaction, you go to his superiors, because this is something you don't ask, you tell.
The key from a parent's perspective is to avoid any suggestion that you are trying to manage the team. Yes, pitchers lose efficacy as their pitch counts mount, but if you start arguing that the guy should come out because he's going to give up runs, you're arguing strategy, not safety.
A high school player is typically a minor or, if an adult, barely an adult. The ultimate responsibility for that minor's well being resides in his parents. If any coach suggests that you should stay out of safety or health decisions that affect your own child, he is wrong and deserves to be challenged.
Clearly this can get out of hand, and some folks can become ridiculous about interfering and then couching it in terms that would seem to justify what is really just butting in. But abuse of pitchers is an all too common situation and because it is an area where some coaches are prone to crossing the line, there's always going to be a tension there, and there will be times when it's appropriate for a parent to choose words carefully, to approach calmly and privately, and put your foot down. And if you don't get satisfaction, you go to his superiors, because this is something you don't ask, you tell.
I'm typically a stand in right field and keep your mouth shut kind of guy when it comes to coaches decisions however if this was happening to my son that policy would be adjusted immediately! Coaching strategy is one thing, abuse is another!
Hey CM nice to have you back!
Hey CM nice to have you back!
I dont know why it is but our kids let us know when they are done on the mound---sometimes they are "soft" but most times they are accurate and sometimes we push them a little because they are so attuned to limited innings and pitches they do not know how to extend themselves in a proper fashion--we like to think we have a great relationship with our kids and we can all speak openly with each other and I truly think that helps
As much as I care for kids arms I think we have become too soft---many arms are not ready for the rigors of college ball much minor league baseball.
As much as I care for kids arms I think we have become too soft---many arms are not ready for the rigors of college ball much minor league baseball.
Husband has an agreement with the coach since son was a freshman, he is now a senior. Husband will stand with a counter and when he thinks enough is enough he will get the coaches attention and show him the counter, coach pulls son. This may not be normal to most but it is a long standing agreement between the coach and my husband. In four years my husband has only had to do it twice.
I am interested in this subject as my son could be in this situation as the season goes along.
While there have been a number on great comments, I have not seen anyone state what should be reasonably and responsibly expected from a HS pitcher as far as pitch counts per week and rest between starts.
I know there are many variables, but what would be a good baseline that some of the many coaches on this board use for their teams?
Coach May, what guidelines do you use for your pitchers?
While there have been a number on great comments, I have not seen anyone state what should be reasonably and responsibly expected from a HS pitcher as far as pitch counts per week and rest between starts.
I know there are many variables, but what would be a good baseline that some of the many coaches on this board use for their teams?
Coach May, what guidelines do you use for your pitchers?
quote:Originally posted by sportsmomof2:quote:Originally posted by Coach May:
You know what usually happens in these types of situations? The player is a player he wants to win and he loves to compete. He wants to pitch and he will go till his arm falls off if it thats what it takes to help his team win. That is what he is taught to do. He knows he has thrown a ton of pitches and he knows he probably should come out. But the competitive drive to win and the never quit attitude that makes him what he is kicks in and he is not going to take himself out. The parent knows the kid has thrown too many pitches. But they dont want to step on anyones shoes. They dont want to black ball their kid or cause any ill feelings with the coaches. So they sit there cringing at every pitch and praying he will not grab his elbow or shoulder at some point and time during the game. The "coach" says "He's a Bulldog , he's strong as a mule , he was getting stronger as the game went on."
This really describes the situation my son was in last week. He wanted to finish the game and I do hold him responsible as well - but I feel like we should be able to trust the coaches to do the right thing too.
Dad04 hit the nail on the head too, as his performance was somewhat lacking in the next outing. All of the pitches, were from 2 complete games 6 days apart and he is a position player as well and had 2 additional games in between.
It is time to sit down and have a long talk with our son.
Try as your son might, very soon he will probably start to get shelled and have a short outing, or outings. The process is usually self-correcting, but needn't be, if the coach will show some management skills. Hopefully no long-term damage is done in the mean time.
College athletic training rooms are littered with pitchers who loaded their high school teams on their backs, only to end up with torn up elbows and shoulders after high school baseball is a distant memory, except for maybe a $50 trophy in the trophy case in the hallway. These guys are usually forgotten and fade from view in college.
I know a guy who stood behind the dugout with his pitch counter when his son pitched. The message sent was clear.
Hi Sportsmomof2,
I always had very similar concerns and had different appraoches and responses over time as my son and I learned more. Your questions have a lot a variables as others have pointed out. But I will interject what my son and I did.
What's the best way to handle a situation where your son is throwing too many pitches in the high school season? How should the player approach the coaches?
I would never do or say anything during a game situation. Your son should first approach the coach before or after practice or some other convienent time. He needs to ask the coach what is his idea of pitch count limits during a single outing and the rest interval between starts/relief.
Once your son (and you) understand what your coach is planning then you need to decide if you agree. What is reasonable to you. As others have pointed out, IMHO, the pitch count should be low early in the season and progress through the season to the goal (sons/yours and coaches). What that limit is is different, depending on your age, physical stature and conditioning. Some coaches will not give you a number and say it changes over the season. We were very lucky during HS and the coach started off with 50/60 pitches and progressed to 70/80 and 90/100 over the first three or four weeks of the season so that by the end of the first month he had all the starters getting to 100 pitches. The last month of the season I saw 125 to 130 or so pitches on the top guys.
One RULE OF THUMB we always used however was one hour rest for each game time pitch, 100 pitches 100 hundred hours to next game time pitch, give or take a couple of hours. I believe this gives some credit/rest for the pre-game warm up and between innings throwing. If the coach does not offer his idea of a rest period between outings then your son needs to suggest what he would like and ask the coach if he can accomadate this request. If he does, great. If not, I believe this gets to your other question.
And at what point do you step in as a parent?
If the Coach does not agree to a pitch count limit or rest period between outings, I believe this is the point that the parent needs to speak with the coach.
During this conversation remain calm at all times and never tell the coach what he must do. I would simply state your concern for your sons health and that you do not want to see him hurt his arm. Ask the caoch if he ever lost a pitcher because arm issues. You might want to do some research before this conservation and find out from other sources if the coach ever put a kid into surgery or physical therapy from overuse before. Coaches seem to develop a reputation for these kind of things. At this point the coach realizes why you are talking to him, so go ahead and suggest the pitch count and rest period you believe will help protect your sons health. Then ask the coach if he can accomodate this request. Don't try to soften your concerns, simply state your interest in preserving your sons health and your belief that pitches over the limit and insufficent rest between outings is not in the best interest or your son or the baseball program to get through the season without hurting someones arm/shoulder.
Once I figured some of things out I always tried to have this conservation with the coach eary before the season. Once you establish what the coach thinks and, if different from yours, he understands your concerns most coaches are reasonable. If the coach does not respond or respect your request then you may have to go to the school athletic director or administration. This is last resort and will probbably result in other consequences, but I believe you must step up and protect your sons arm. Otherwise you may have to watch and endure the abuse. I have watched kids just shut down on the mound and grab and rub their arms after every pitch and wondered how the coach can do this to a kid. IT HAPPEN EVERY YEAR TO SOME KID, and it is due mostly to overuse and abuse. Sometimes other factors cause the arm troubles such as flaws in pitching mechanics and trying to throw hard, but most times it is overuse by the coach.
I always had very similar concerns and had different appraoches and responses over time as my son and I learned more. Your questions have a lot a variables as others have pointed out. But I will interject what my son and I did.
What's the best way to handle a situation where your son is throwing too many pitches in the high school season? How should the player approach the coaches?
I would never do or say anything during a game situation. Your son should first approach the coach before or after practice or some other convienent time. He needs to ask the coach what is his idea of pitch count limits during a single outing and the rest interval between starts/relief.
Once your son (and you) understand what your coach is planning then you need to decide if you agree. What is reasonable to you. As others have pointed out, IMHO, the pitch count should be low early in the season and progress through the season to the goal (sons/yours and coaches). What that limit is is different, depending on your age, physical stature and conditioning. Some coaches will not give you a number and say it changes over the season. We were very lucky during HS and the coach started off with 50/60 pitches and progressed to 70/80 and 90/100 over the first three or four weeks of the season so that by the end of the first month he had all the starters getting to 100 pitches. The last month of the season I saw 125 to 130 or so pitches on the top guys.
One RULE OF THUMB we always used however was one hour rest for each game time pitch, 100 pitches 100 hundred hours to next game time pitch, give or take a couple of hours. I believe this gives some credit/rest for the pre-game warm up and between innings throwing. If the coach does not offer his idea of a rest period between outings then your son needs to suggest what he would like and ask the coach if he can accomadate this request. If he does, great. If not, I believe this gets to your other question.
And at what point do you step in as a parent?
If the Coach does not agree to a pitch count limit or rest period between outings, I believe this is the point that the parent needs to speak with the coach.
During this conversation remain calm at all times and never tell the coach what he must do. I would simply state your concern for your sons health and that you do not want to see him hurt his arm. Ask the caoch if he ever lost a pitcher because arm issues. You might want to do some research before this conservation and find out from other sources if the coach ever put a kid into surgery or physical therapy from overuse before. Coaches seem to develop a reputation for these kind of things. At this point the coach realizes why you are talking to him, so go ahead and suggest the pitch count and rest period you believe will help protect your sons health. Then ask the coach if he can accomodate this request. Don't try to soften your concerns, simply state your interest in preserving your sons health and your belief that pitches over the limit and insufficent rest between outings is not in the best interest or your son or the baseball program to get through the season without hurting someones arm/shoulder.
Once I figured some of things out I always tried to have this conservation with the coach eary before the season. Once you establish what the coach thinks and, if different from yours, he understands your concerns most coaches are reasonable. If the coach does not respond or respect your request then you may have to go to the school athletic director or administration. This is last resort and will probbably result in other consequences, but I believe you must step up and protect your sons arm. Otherwise you may have to watch and endure the abuse. I have watched kids just shut down on the mound and grab and rub their arms after every pitch and wondered how the coach can do this to a kid. IT HAPPEN EVERY YEAR TO SOME KID, and it is due mostly to overuse and abuse. Sometimes other factors cause the arm troubles such as flaws in pitching mechanics and trying to throw hard, but most times it is overuse by the coach.
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
As much as I care for kids arms I think we have become too soft---many arms are not ready for the rigors of college ball much minor league baseball.
I understand what you’re saying about some players being “too soft” regarding workload however in the example given: 250 pitches in a week (plus playing position during rest of week) I would say this would have to be considered hard core, not soft.
As to how much do they need to throw to be ready for the rigors of college/pro... a front line pitcher in HS probably logs between 50-70 innings a year during their HS season, plus summer and fall ball. I would say most of these boys are throwing plenty to be ready for college/pro. Actually I think many are throwing too much already.
I can't speak to the rigors of college baseball however you have to remember that professional baseball has four or more years available to them to work most HS draftees up to the kind of pitch count/innings that would be required to pitch as a starter at the major league level. In my son’s case they tell him they don’t want him to increase his innings more than 20% a year. Based on that if he threw 90 innings last year in high school (school season, fall and summer ball) then based on 20% increases over 4 years time he would be over 180 innings per season. Based on this I would think the baseline for most starting HS pitchers would be sufficient to go to the next level regarding work load.
coach may..... excellent post
trhit....i couldn't disagree more! my own son threw in a tournament when he could barely feel his fingers. they came in second in the state, he made the all state team and it cost him two years on the mound. thank God he didn't need surgery. last year i saw an umpire stop a varsity game, because our left handed pitcher was grabbing his shoulder and wincing in pain after every pitch. the kid was freshman who had pitched 75 pitches the night before in a jv contest. he wanted to make the most of his varsity start.....it cost him the rest of his freshman season.
i've talked to college coaches.....they feel that the arms aren't ready, not because their hs coaches have been too soft on them, but because they've inherited the overuse/abuse by hs, rec and travel coaches.
our son adheres to the little league rules, as approved by his doctor. no more that 95 pitches in a day with 3 complete days of rest in between for a 13-16 year old. no more than 105 with the same rest requirement. we also build up....his pitch limit the 1st half of the season is 80 pitches. second half he can add 5 every two weeks. by summer at 17 his limit will be 100, never any more....
also.....the doctor's signed requirement prior to the season beginning help address the situation before he finds himself in a tough spot.
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
I dont know why it is but our kids let us know when they are done on the mound---sometimes they are "soft" but most times they are accurate and sometimes we push them a little because they are so attuned to limited innings and pitches they do not know how to extend themselves in a proper fashion--we like to think we have a great relationship with our kids and we can all speak openly with each other and I truly think that helps
As much as I care for kids arms I think we have become too soft---many arms are not ready for the rigors of college ball much minor league baseball.
trhit....i couldn't disagree more! my own son threw in a tournament when he could barely feel his fingers. they came in second in the state, he made the all state team and it cost him two years on the mound. thank God he didn't need surgery. last year i saw an umpire stop a varsity game, because our left handed pitcher was grabbing his shoulder and wincing in pain after every pitch. the kid was freshman who had pitched 75 pitches the night before in a jv contest. he wanted to make the most of his varsity start.....it cost him the rest of his freshman season.
i've talked to college coaches.....they feel that the arms aren't ready, not because their hs coaches have been too soft on them, but because they've inherited the overuse/abuse by hs, rec and travel coaches.
our son adheres to the little league rules, as approved by his doctor. no more that 95 pitches in a day with 3 complete days of rest in between for a 13-16 year old. no more than 105 with the same rest requirement. we also build up....his pitch limit the 1st half of the season is 80 pitches. second half he can add 5 every two weeks. by summer at 17 his limit will be 100, never any more....
also.....the doctor's signed requirement prior to the season beginning help address the situation before he finds himself in a tough spot.
.
About PITCH COUNTS:
AL MA said this above, which is very similar to what I learned thru research when my son was a HS pitcher, and ended up working well for him:
In my son's case he worked with a private coach for a month before his HS practices started in early March., so he was ready for about 70 game pitches at his first start of the season. By the end of the spring season (late May) he could comfortably go about 120 pitches in a game in warmer weather.
Also as AL MA said above, the standard recommendations from reputable sources like ASMI (www.asmi.org) call for 1 hour rest per game pitch thrown. So theoretically, if he throws 24 pitches in relief in an evening game, he could do the same again the next evening.
All of the recommendations need to be adjusted to fit your son's age, strength, and conditioning, and he should listen to his own body. My son found that his personal best performance level during HS was when he would pitch a complete game at 110 to 125 pitches, and then have a full week of rest before pitching again. When he came back on shorter rest (example: pitch 120 on a Monday, then 5 days/120 hours later on Saturday pitch again), his velocity and effectiveness was less on that Saturday start, even if his arm felt "okay". But if he waited until the following Monday he could pitch another complete game and be at his best.
Any of the recommendations above might not work for your son or the other pitchers on his team, and are just starting points. Each pitcher needs to listen to his own body, and the coaches or informed parents need to look for differences in effectiveness based on usage and rest time. Throwing too many pitches in one game is usually not the problem (within reason - up to 130 or so game pitches for a 17-18 year old pitcher). It's what happens in the week and month after that long game that does the damage, or not.
Julie
About PITCH COUNTS:
AL MA said this above, which is very similar to what I learned thru research when my son was a HS pitcher, and ended up working well for him:
quote:We were very lucky during HS and the coach started off with 50/60 pitches and progressed to 70/80 and 90/100 over the first three or four weeks of the season so that by the end of the first month he had all the starters getting to 100 pitches. The last month of the season I saw 125 to 130 or so pitches on the top guys.
One RULE OF THUMB we always used however was one hour rest for each game time pitch, 100 pitches 100 hundred hours to next game time pitch, give or take a couple of hours.
In my son's case he worked with a private coach for a month before his HS practices started in early March., so he was ready for about 70 game pitches at his first start of the season. By the end of the spring season (late May) he could comfortably go about 120 pitches in a game in warmer weather.
Also as AL MA said above, the standard recommendations from reputable sources like ASMI (www.asmi.org) call for 1 hour rest per game pitch thrown. So theoretically, if he throws 24 pitches in relief in an evening game, he could do the same again the next evening.
All of the recommendations need to be adjusted to fit your son's age, strength, and conditioning, and he should listen to his own body. My son found that his personal best performance level during HS was when he would pitch a complete game at 110 to 125 pitches, and then have a full week of rest before pitching again. When he came back on shorter rest (example: pitch 120 on a Monday, then 5 days/120 hours later on Saturday pitch again), his velocity and effectiveness was less on that Saturday start, even if his arm felt "okay". But if he waited until the following Monday he could pitch another complete game and be at his best.
Any of the recommendations above might not work for your son or the other pitchers on his team, and are just starting points. Each pitcher needs to listen to his own body, and the coaches or informed parents need to look for differences in effectiveness based on usage and rest time. Throwing too many pitches in one game is usually not the problem (within reason - up to 130 or so game pitches for a 17-18 year old pitcher). It's what happens in the week and month after that long game that does the damage, or not.
Julie
WBC pitch counts 65 1st round, 2nd round 80. I understand it was done for two reasons. Protecting pro athletes from injury and limiting one sided games.
Lets do the math on two complete 125 pitch games in 6 days. Warm up = 25-30 pitches, 7 innings = 125, warm up between innings 5 per 7 innings = 35. Total pitches 190 pitches for 7 innings x 2 = 380 pitches over 6 days.
I subscribe to the theory every pitch over 100 counts as two. So in my book you can tack on another 50 for a grand total 430 pitches over 6 days. Not to mention practices throughout the week as a position player. Add it all up and what you have is a pitcher that will change mechanics to over come fatiqued resulting in a pointless arm injury.
I would imagine that this it not a one time event. The player has probably been throwing similiar counts for quite awhile, if it were, the original poster would already know the answer, because his kid would not be able to lift his arm. The real question is. When will the coach develop some pitching?
Lets do the math on two complete 125 pitch games in 6 days. Warm up = 25-30 pitches, 7 innings = 125, warm up between innings 5 per 7 innings = 35. Total pitches 190 pitches for 7 innings x 2 = 380 pitches over 6 days.
I subscribe to the theory every pitch over 100 counts as two. So in my book you can tack on another 50 for a grand total 430 pitches over 6 days. Not to mention practices throughout the week as a position player. Add it all up and what you have is a pitcher that will change mechanics to over come fatiqued resulting in a pointless arm injury.
I would imagine that this it not a one time event. The player has probably been throwing similiar counts for quite awhile, if it were, the original poster would already know the answer, because his kid would not be able to lift his arm. The real question is. When will the coach develop some pitching?
"And at what point do you step in as a parent? "
"You are not your son's agent."
You are your childs parent. 99% of High School coaches would probablly think 250 pitches in 7 days is a high # and would schedule a rest period for his pitchers taking into account all factors. A high school student/player's, Head coach is his authority, a student should in no way be asked to have the discussion that needs to be had, in this situation. Hopefully your son is not dealing with that 1%, but if he is. You should approach the coach through email or a call to find a good time for him to have the discussion. Tell him your justifiable concerns very calmly, and discuss the situation. Then monitor closely.
"You are not your son's agent."
You are your childs parent. 99% of High School coaches would probablly think 250 pitches in 7 days is a high # and would schedule a rest period for his pitchers taking into account all factors. A high school student/player's, Head coach is his authority, a student should in no way be asked to have the discussion that needs to be had, in this situation. Hopefully your son is not dealing with that 1%, but if he is. You should approach the coach through email or a call to find a good time for him to have the discussion. Tell him your justifiable concerns very calmly, and discuss the situation. Then monitor closely.
I completely agree with Coach May on this. There is no justification to have a young man playing in high school throw excessive pitch counts, especially early in the season. During high school season, I umpire and then coach during the summer. Just this week, I had to call 'timeout' and have a HS coach come out to talk to his pitcher...in the first inning! The kid had already thrown about 50 pitches, and had walked off the mound several times to tell his coach his arm hurt. The coach just motioned for him to go back and pitch. I was coaching the bases, and finally reached my breaking point when the boy walked off at the end of a batter and pleaded with the coach. I called time and told the coach to get out there and deal with it. What did he do? Put the kid in center field. I spoke with the kid after the game, and he told me his arm was killing him, but his coach said he had to pitch. Perhaps that's why he faced 14 batters and only recorded one out?n I wonder how he'll be the next outing? Or if there'll be a next outing...
I think that coaches need to have pitch limits, but that they should be different for each pitcher. Over the years, a few of the young men who've pitched for me have gone on to pitch in college, and I always had different ranges where I was going to pull a pitcher that depended on each individual. Some of the guys seldom got beyond 80-85 pitches, while others were allowed to go 100 and still a few more up to as much as 120 or so. The key is to understand the difference in each pitcher by talking with them and their parents (remember, I coach summer ball, not HS ball) and working within those limits. We do not look at summer ball as a live and die situation where winning a game comes before managing player workloads intelligently, and high school ball should be the same.
Last summer, one of our players was heading to a Pac-10 school to pitch in the fall. Prior to the start of summer ball, I had an email conversation with his college pitching coach to find out how THEY wanted him to be used during the summer, then we executed that plan. Most of his outing were limited to around 70-75 pitches, while we extened him close to 100 a few times. Keep in mind that this young man is 6'4" and over 200 pounds. The key they wanted us to focus on, was to work on developing a change up, as well as build on a few other things. Now, during his school season, this pitcher's HS coach had him go about 135 pitches in a March game, shortly after finished basketball season. That outing effected the player for weeks afterward. We had to start his workload off lighter due to the abuses he endured during HS season, and then gradually build him back up. He was frustrated but understood what we were talking about, and his college coaches supported it. Now, he's playing college ball in the Pac-10 and I don't think life gets much better than that. That players high school coach thinks I'm an idiot, but I can think of 7 pitchers who played for him in high school over the years, who've either had arm surgery or no longer play baseball due to arm injuries. He's abusive, plain and simple...but he wins and that's what he cares about.
You have to use common sense, and realize that no game at this stage of their life is 'life or death.'
I think that coaches need to have pitch limits, but that they should be different for each pitcher. Over the years, a few of the young men who've pitched for me have gone on to pitch in college, and I always had different ranges where I was going to pull a pitcher that depended on each individual. Some of the guys seldom got beyond 80-85 pitches, while others were allowed to go 100 and still a few more up to as much as 120 or so. The key is to understand the difference in each pitcher by talking with them and their parents (remember, I coach summer ball, not HS ball) and working within those limits. We do not look at summer ball as a live and die situation where winning a game comes before managing player workloads intelligently, and high school ball should be the same.
Last summer, one of our players was heading to a Pac-10 school to pitch in the fall. Prior to the start of summer ball, I had an email conversation with his college pitching coach to find out how THEY wanted him to be used during the summer, then we executed that plan. Most of his outing were limited to around 70-75 pitches, while we extened him close to 100 a few times. Keep in mind that this young man is 6'4" and over 200 pounds. The key they wanted us to focus on, was to work on developing a change up, as well as build on a few other things. Now, during his school season, this pitcher's HS coach had him go about 135 pitches in a March game, shortly after finished basketball season. That outing effected the player for weeks afterward. We had to start his workload off lighter due to the abuses he endured during HS season, and then gradually build him back up. He was frustrated but understood what we were talking about, and his college coaches supported it. Now, he's playing college ball in the Pac-10 and I don't think life gets much better than that. That players high school coach thinks I'm an idiot, but I can think of 7 pitchers who played for him in high school over the years, who've either had arm surgery or no longer play baseball due to arm injuries. He's abusive, plain and simple...but he wins and that's what he cares about.
You have to use common sense, and realize that no game at this stage of their life is 'life or death.'
I have enjoyed this topic about excessive pitch counts lots of opinions.
I agree that the athlete needs to tell coach he has no more left in the arm especially in HS ball.
Last week the HS coach had his 4 pitchers go over 100 pitches then played them in the field and no they did not win the games. One was a freshman 2 sophmores and one senior. No one/parents or coaches think this is wrong. The senior told us he don't mind he trying to get a scholarship so that should help him. My son knows to go about 70-75 especially this early in the season. But kids are told before game if can't give me 100 pitch count you not going. So son(JR)has not had much play time. But he's good with that ocassionally he gets in when they up over 110 count and has his 9 to 12 count innings. This year has been a challenge.
Glad there is some umps out there watching situations. Thanks to the Umps and coaches that use common sense.
I agree that the athlete needs to tell coach he has no more left in the arm especially in HS ball.
Last week the HS coach had his 4 pitchers go over 100 pitches then played them in the field and no they did not win the games. One was a freshman 2 sophmores and one senior. No one/parents or coaches think this is wrong. The senior told us he don't mind he trying to get a scholarship so that should help him. My son knows to go about 70-75 especially this early in the season. But kids are told before game if can't give me 100 pitch count you not going. So son(JR)has not had much play time. But he's good with that ocassionally he gets in when they up over 110 count and has his 9 to 12 count innings. This year has been a challenge.
Glad there is some umps out there watching situations. Thanks to the Umps and coaches that use common sense.
Just gotta chime in, since this is a particular sore point with me. Son pitches HS and high level showcase travel ball. Varsity starter as a 14 yo freshman. Our HS coach is a fool. First game of season fresman year, son is in RF to start. Pitcher gets in trouble a couple of innings in, son comes in from right, gets a couple of outs, goes back to RF next inning. Coach brings him in to close a couple of innings later. After the game was over and the coach was alone, I proceeded to tell him, in no uncertain terms, what I thought about his care of a young arm, coaching skill, and what the rules would be for my son if he was ever going to play on that team again. During summer ball, son can go up to 110 this year, provided a week of rest is observed. During the HS season, the limit is 85-90 (lower the first couple of starts) for three reasons. First, it is early in the year, and time is needed to condition. (we only get about two weeks of practice before games start.) Second, It provides an incentive to be efficient, and in this part of the world, HS teams only have a couple of solid hitters anyway, he really shouldnt need more than that. Third, as far as Im concerned, this particular coach can go screw. After that first incident, I reallized that coach put himself in front of players, and there is no way that I am going to let my kid get run into the ground for the greater glory of some clown that cant develop players. This is HS ball, not MiLB where the players are indeed commodities. The goal should be to make better players and people, not to be some joker that sponges off of a bunch of kids. To me, good coaches contribute, not take away from, the youngsters that they are charged with. Players that have good coaches come out of the experience better, in all ways, than they were before they started. I just dont understand why parents let coaches do some of this **** to their kids.
BBMom34, as the father of a former player with a 7" scar on the inside of his throwing elbow (that means Tommy John surgery) please take this issue seriously. My son was a catcher, not a pitcher, but it doesn't matter when they lose a year and have to go through arm surgery. These guys, especially the younger ones, are at risk with very high pitch counts. Unless they are big strapping kids who are more physically mature, they are at greater risk than they'd otherwise be. As for the senior, he needs to realize that college coaches look for effective pitching, not necessarily how many pitches he can throw. If he's throwing excessive loads, some college coaches might shy away if they see him as likely to suffer arm injury.
Thank goodness, our coach is pretty good about this, especially getting plenty of rest and not playing in the field too close to pitched games. My son pitches varsity and plays position on JV. He went 7 innings last Monday night. Tonight will be his next game pitching. 9 days rest. Last night he was in a JV game, but did not play in the field, only DH'd. After he pitches tonight, he will not play in either of the JV games on Friday and Saturday. Only DH in them.
He's not the only one. Last Wednesday, one of the varsity starters (RF) started on the mound. Next varsity game was on Friday. He did not start, only DH'd. Had a freshman start in his place. Point is that fortunately our coach is pretty good about the rest between starts and making sure they get plenty of rest - that includes playing in the field.
Makes feel better knowing that someone is looking out for his interests. From the sounds of some peoples experience, that is not always the case. If that is true, I agree with those that have posted stating that when it comes to safety, parents are parents and we ultimately are responsible for our kids. Play time, game strategy, running the team etc... are not any of our business as parents. The health of our kids is totally our business and we should act accordingly.
He's not the only one. Last Wednesday, one of the varsity starters (RF) started on the mound. Next varsity game was on Friday. He did not start, only DH'd. Had a freshman start in his place. Point is that fortunately our coach is pretty good about the rest between starts and making sure they get plenty of rest - that includes playing in the field.
Makes feel better knowing that someone is looking out for his interests. From the sounds of some peoples experience, that is not always the case. If that is true, I agree with those that have posted stating that when it comes to safety, parents are parents and we ultimately are responsible for our kids. Play time, game strategy, running the team etc... are not any of our business as parents. The health of our kids is totally our business and we should act accordingly.
Highcheese, you have a PM.
Catcher Dad
I do take this very serious its the coaches/other parents players on our team that do not. I totally agree with you.
As I said my son will not and knows he is not to go more than 70-75 pitches in a game for him that is normally a Complete game. The other's just go for it. They want to play no matter what the cost. Have given them articles, websites about pitch counts and pretty much just laugh at me.
Heck they don't even ice or do running next day. They trust the coach when he says its no big deal.
Sorry Catcherdad about your son. The senior is about 5'8 150 lbs and my son 6'3" 210 so they (coach) make fun of my kid since he don't want(knows better) to go over 100 pitches.
The life of hs baseball. Never has he had a coach tell him to go that much and he has played summer/travel ball a long time and won a few national championships. He has seen kids get injured.
I do take this very serious its the coaches/other parents players on our team that do not. I totally agree with you.
As I said my son will not and knows he is not to go more than 70-75 pitches in a game for him that is normally a Complete game. The other's just go for it. They want to play no matter what the cost. Have given them articles, websites about pitch counts and pretty much just laugh at me.
Heck they don't even ice or do running next day. They trust the coach when he says its no big deal.
Sorry Catcherdad about your son. The senior is about 5'8 150 lbs and my son 6'3" 210 so they (coach) make fun of my kid since he don't want(knows better) to go over 100 pitches.
The life of hs baseball. Never has he had a coach tell him to go that much and he has played summer/travel ball a long time and won a few national championships. He has seen kids get injured.
I sure dont want this to turn into a HS coaching bash party. The vast majority that I know actually do a great job protecting their kids from over use.
There are many issues that crop up with HS baseball and over throwing by players. At most schools the top arms are also the best posistion players. Many times they are playing a posistion and then rotate on the mound in the rotation. In between games they are practicing at their defensive posistions and many times do not get the needed recovery and prep for the next outing on the mound. This only adds to the problem of over use. You can talk about excessive pitch counts but do you also factor in the posistion play? Do you factor in the throws in practice in between games? Or what about the fact that instead of properly preparing for the next start you are spending that time instead hitting , practicing your defensive posistion etc etc? Many times you see a good arm early in the year only to see a worn out arm later in the year. Then you see the same kid in the summer and he is a shell of what he was during the HS season. Then it culminates in hearing about the labrum or rotator etc after the summer season. Happens all too often.
Someone asked so I will talk a bit about how we handle our guys. We play three games a week and a total of 24 regular season games. Typically we have one non conf game a week and two conf games a week. This means we have to have three guys that can start each game that week. We have to have two more guys that can come in to relieve in those games over the course of the week. So we have to have 5 guys that can take the mound for us. We set up the rotation so we can have our top arms pitch the conference games. If they play a posistion as well we play them at 1B or DH them or sit them the game after they pitch. The vast majority of their time is spent preparing to pitch for their next outing after a start.
This also means we are not going to have a top shelf arm on the hill every game. It means we are going to have to rely on some other guys to help us win. It means we have to develop other arms. And it means we are going to take some L's along the way. But this is ok because it makes your players better and your team better for the end of the season.
We manage our pitch counts on an individual basis based on several factors. How old is the player? How strong is the player? How does he bounce back? How are his mechanics? What was his pitch count the last outing?
Early in the year we limit our older experienced guys to 75 - 80 pitches. Later in the year we will let them go up to 100. The younger guys will be limited to 65-70 and limit them later in the year to 80-85. They never start on less than four days rest. And if they relieve and push past the 40 - 45 limit they dont come back on less than three days rest.
What it has shown me is these guys actually get stronger as the year goes along and at the end of the year they are peaking and at their best.
50-55 innings is about the max we have ever had a kid throw in a HS season including playoffs.
The problem is the guys with the best arms are the ones at the most risk of over use. And then they leave the HS season with a worn out arm and move on to showcase ball. Then they are trying to impress the college coaches with an arm that is just flat out tired. Its a never ending cycle. They come out of the summer season and instead of resting and working to strengthen the arm they move into the fall season.
When you are pitching and you dont have the proper recovery time and you are not doing the proper things between starts to prepare for the next outing you are taking money out of the bank and your not putting any back in. At some point and time the account is over drawn. That is just a fact.
Yes some kids are soft. They will find a reason to come out of game if they are getting hit but are fine if they are cruising. But that is easy to determine as a coach. But their are many that will throw that rock until that arm falls off because they are warriors. The problem is it will fall off if the coach does not do his job and care more about the player than winning a game. Develop all your guys and give them all an opportunity to help the team win and compete. Quit trying to ride one horse because at some point and time he is going to run out of gas and then there is no one ready to be saddled up.
There are many issues that crop up with HS baseball and over throwing by players. At most schools the top arms are also the best posistion players. Many times they are playing a posistion and then rotate on the mound in the rotation. In between games they are practicing at their defensive posistions and many times do not get the needed recovery and prep for the next outing on the mound. This only adds to the problem of over use. You can talk about excessive pitch counts but do you also factor in the posistion play? Do you factor in the throws in practice in between games? Or what about the fact that instead of properly preparing for the next start you are spending that time instead hitting , practicing your defensive posistion etc etc? Many times you see a good arm early in the year only to see a worn out arm later in the year. Then you see the same kid in the summer and he is a shell of what he was during the HS season. Then it culminates in hearing about the labrum or rotator etc after the summer season. Happens all too often.
Someone asked so I will talk a bit about how we handle our guys. We play three games a week and a total of 24 regular season games. Typically we have one non conf game a week and two conf games a week. This means we have to have three guys that can start each game that week. We have to have two more guys that can come in to relieve in those games over the course of the week. So we have to have 5 guys that can take the mound for us. We set up the rotation so we can have our top arms pitch the conference games. If they play a posistion as well we play them at 1B or DH them or sit them the game after they pitch. The vast majority of their time is spent preparing to pitch for their next outing after a start.
This also means we are not going to have a top shelf arm on the hill every game. It means we are going to have to rely on some other guys to help us win. It means we have to develop other arms. And it means we are going to take some L's along the way. But this is ok because it makes your players better and your team better for the end of the season.
We manage our pitch counts on an individual basis based on several factors. How old is the player? How strong is the player? How does he bounce back? How are his mechanics? What was his pitch count the last outing?
Early in the year we limit our older experienced guys to 75 - 80 pitches. Later in the year we will let them go up to 100. The younger guys will be limited to 65-70 and limit them later in the year to 80-85. They never start on less than four days rest. And if they relieve and push past the 40 - 45 limit they dont come back on less than three days rest.
What it has shown me is these guys actually get stronger as the year goes along and at the end of the year they are peaking and at their best.
50-55 innings is about the max we have ever had a kid throw in a HS season including playoffs.
The problem is the guys with the best arms are the ones at the most risk of over use. And then they leave the HS season with a worn out arm and move on to showcase ball. Then they are trying to impress the college coaches with an arm that is just flat out tired. Its a never ending cycle. They come out of the summer season and instead of resting and working to strengthen the arm they move into the fall season.
When you are pitching and you dont have the proper recovery time and you are not doing the proper things between starts to prepare for the next outing you are taking money out of the bank and your not putting any back in. At some point and time the account is over drawn. That is just a fact.
Yes some kids are soft. They will find a reason to come out of game if they are getting hit but are fine if they are cruising. But that is easy to determine as a coach. But their are many that will throw that rock until that arm falls off because they are warriors. The problem is it will fall off if the coach does not do his job and care more about the player than winning a game. Develop all your guys and give them all an opportunity to help the team win and compete. Quit trying to ride one horse because at some point and time he is going to run out of gas and then there is no one ready to be saddled up.
Not many kids are going to tell a coach, I am done. Coach walks to mound to see how the pitchers doing and asks " how you feeling " - "good" " can you finish the game" - "yes.
Adrenaline's pumping and they do feel good. It's 3-4 days later when their still hurting. The kid knows he screwed up but will repeat the process because he wants to play. The coach needs to take the lead and play it on the conservative side. And again he needs to develop his pitching.
I contend if your working out pretty much year round and are in excellent condition, with respect to your age and the quality of competition, a player could throw 100 pitches. The posts I have been reading suggest most kids are starting their conditioning 2-4 weeks before the season. IMO it's not enough time.
Adrenaline's pumping and they do feel good. It's 3-4 days later when their still hurting. The kid knows he screwed up but will repeat the process because he wants to play. The coach needs to take the lead and play it on the conservative side. And again he needs to develop his pitching.
I contend if your working out pretty much year round and are in excellent condition, with respect to your age and the quality of competition, a player could throw 100 pitches. The posts I have been reading suggest most kids are starting their conditioning 2-4 weeks before the season. IMO it's not enough time.
By high school it's time for parents to stop holding their kid's hand. It's time for the kid to start standing up for himself. There's no reason why a kid can't tell the coach his arm isn't built up for that many pitches over the time period. If the coach doesn't like it and doesn't pitch him, the kid doesn't have to worry about abuse and will still pitch on his travel team.quote:"And at what point do you step in as a parent? "
"You are not your son's agent."
You are your childs parent.
It is really not about hand-holding. The recruiting coordinator at son's college called his high school coach after the first start of HS senior season to complain after son threw 115 pitches. College folks have been down this road too often. They don't care about holding hands. They care about healthy elbows and shoulders.
Just as an FYI, the other thing our coach does is when infielders are taking infield in practice - not before games, infielders do not throw to first after the catch. They just make an easy throw into the catcher. They do long toss to keep arms in shape. Pitchers have a regimen including long toss, running, band work and bullpens. Point is that there is not a lot of throwing from positions during practice. This really helps with the non pitching related overuse.
RJM, I say the player should be able to talk to the coach. If it doesn't work, the parents should step in when it comes to safety. JMHO.
Dad04, my sons off season pitching instructor is concerned about arm health as well. He said if the coach has a problem with limits, I should give his number to the coach and let him talk to him. Haven't had to do it, but it was offered.
RJM, I say the player should be able to talk to the coach. If it doesn't work, the parents should step in when it comes to safety. JMHO.
Dad04, my sons off season pitching instructor is concerned about arm health as well. He said if the coach has a problem with limits, I should give his number to the coach and let him talk to him. Haven't had to do it, but it was offered.