Excessive pitching......

Well, LHD, I'm usually the first to offer up possible explanations for coach's actions in an effort to talk parents down from the ledge.  I got nothin'.  In fact you are doing better than I would at not making contact yet.

 

The only thing I"m curious about is if you were aware that this JV coach threw another kid over 130 twice last season, why didn't you discuss pitch limits with this guy ahead of time?  You always strike me as someone who is very much on top of things and one who has great perspective and experience.

Well, after the kid, last year, suffered aome arm fatigue from that situation, the V HC set a pitch limit for the JV HC.  I honestly did not think that I would need to speak out and talk to thisCoach about that.  No one on JV has pitched more than 4 innings to this point, mainly because they couldn't go any longer(we are far short on pitching talent, but there are plenty of kids that could use/need developmental time).  One of the ptichers has started four out of the ten games, usually out by the fourth/fifth inning.  The team was coming off of a defeat from the night before, in which several freshman and a soph made some some basid fundamental errors.  My son said those players were called in to the office indivvidually, after the game but while the others were still in the locker room, and reemed a new one.  To the point one left in tears. )Diferent discusiioopn on who should have been reemed...IMO..it was the Coach for his poor decision making...lol)  My feeling is the Coach was feeling a "W" was within sight and was riding my kid for all he could.  I spoke to my son after, who said he felt great and wanted to go back out for the 9th, but miraculously the coach said "no".  I had to explain to him that every kid wants to stay in because they are cruising or feeling good and doing great, but it's th Coaches responsibility to take control and look out for the player.

 

I already have an email drafted, to be sent out later today, that will impose a pitch limit on Righthook for the remainder of the season.  I did inform my son of the reason and gave him a heads up that the email was going out.  He was very understanding and agreed.  

While I feel your concern make sure you give it some time before you email - email can't be taken back or retracted.  I'd suggest a face to face conversation where you can better gauge the situation.  Also, be prepared.  According to ASMI recommendations, high schoolers are at 95-105, with 4 days rest - the coach may reference that.   

I agree with the face to face conversation rather than an email.  Emails can be taken out of context and misconstrued.  If it were me, I would email or call he coach requesting an appointment.  You have valid concerns and they should be heard.  My own personal rule of thumb for emails... "Never send and email you don't want forwarded".

I don't see the problem. 106 pitches for HS ball is normal.

There is no real way to stop this, no email, no pitch counts, no relying on the coach to count the pitches right. You have to do it yourself. And the only way I know to do it is to do it yourself. Have your pitcher check you out in the stands after a certain predetermined inning (4th?) and have some sign signal that says to the kid Enough! You've reached OUR pitch limit for the day. Then it is up to them to inform the coach that they are out of gas.

 

 

 

 

Only from my own experiance.I have no opinion on the face to face.Others here will more than likely give better advice on that.I would send the email.Maybe wait till sunday night with a ton of rereads and changes if that makes you more comfortable.IMO a trust has been broken.Something in writing is very appropiatte.My guys first 2 varsity starts his pitch total was 125+132 as a freshman.in the first 1/4 of the season.The coach will find some lame a$$ excuse.The V HC will back him.The AD will complete the circling of the waggons.They will tell you it won't happen again.Even tho its not the first time.You need a response from coach in writing.I hope your situation ends up working out.For me I have a group of kids in charge of a larger group of teenagers.Everyone says enjoy the ride.Its going into year 3 and I can't wait till this phase is over.Buy yourself a pitch counter.Have you or your wife stand in C sight line every start.It helps some.

On the surface I agree with you.  106 pitches in 8 innings is less than 14 per inning. What was the weather like though?  Did he have any long innings where he threw more than 20 pitches?  How long did he sit while his team was hitting?  Did his mechanics start to change due to fatigue? If the weather was good and he was just cruising, then I have no problem with the number of pitches thrown (If it was my son).  However, without knowing any of this I will have to give lefthookdad the benefit of the doubt.

Speaking as a parent of a LHP 2015 who is 6 months post-TJ (starts his throwing program on Tuesday), I also would agree with the concern.  If there was one thing I regret, it is not being more "protective" of my son as a 9th//10th grader.  Not that it would have changed his fate...but there is always that guilt.....

 

I do believe 100+ pitches is too much (IMO), although I know many would disagree.  But again, I can't pretend to know the throwing program your son has been on, etc. 

 

At the very least, its worth the conversation...and no one will look out for the health of your son as much as you.   Best of luck to him this season.

But is it right? 

Originally Posted by Goin_yard:

On the surface I agree with you.  106 pitches in 8 innings is less than 14 per inning. What was the weather like though?  Did he have any long innings where he threw more than 20 pitches?  How long did he sit while his team was hitting?  Did his mechanics start to change due to fatigue? If the weather was good and he was just cruising, then I have no problem with the number of pitches thrown (If it was my son).  However, without knowing any of this I will have to give lefthookdad the benefit of the doubt.

 

A couple months ago I took the time to try to come up with a way to do more than just look at pitch counts. Ever since ASMI came out with their recommendations people have been looking for something “better” because they KNOW there are other factors besides the pure number of pitches thrown.

 

I use the raw number of pitches, but also take into account the number of pitches in an inning as well as the additional stress that comes from the number of outs, runners, and the umpire’s pitch count. The attachment shows the result of using those things to compute additional pitches. Notice that although the most pitches a starter has thrown is 85 in 5 and a third, its really like throwing 107 pitches.

 

I’m gonna guess that even though the kid in the OP only averaged 14 pitches an inning, it would have been over 120 equivalent pitches or more.

How many starts has your son had?

Someone that posts here sent me an article on Kevin O'Sullivan, HS and pitching coach for Florida.

He will not allow his pitchers to throw over 75 max the first few outings. He is thinking about each guys future, not the W.

Why is this ok for a HS pitcher?

I dont care how people try to justify this, there is NO reason why a JV player in HS needs to throw over 100 pitches this time of year, regardless of how many it averages out to an inning.

Agreed!

LHD, just my opinion, but have the conversation. I have no opinion on whether the email or face to face is best, though I am the type guy who wants to look in coaches eye. I do understand the comment above about having something in writing for future use if need be. Not to cut into your thread but I will give you a personal story very similar to yours. Summer after my son's 9th grade year. Our school program has a "summer" program that runs the month of June. Son starts the game. Is cruising. After 5th, we are up 8 or 9 to 0 ( not that the score is even important). I see another pitcher in bullpen warming up. Son comes back out in the 6th. Now I'm squirming and talking to myself. One of the parents from the opposing team compliments me on my son's outing and then asks if they have a pitch count on him. My reply,"Obviously not!"  Well he comes back out top of 7th. I am furious, but have never interfered before. I new nothing if this site at the time. When the game ended, I made a bee line toward the dugout. I was headed to confront the coach. My son met me and asked what was wrong. I explained and he replied,"Dad I felt fine and told them I wanted to continue."  I sent him to get me a pitch count. The coaches response was "around" 100. Fast forward 3 months. Son felt a "pop" in elbow while making a throw from outfield. Fortunately he didn't require TJ even though MRI showed a UCL tear. I vowed I would NEVER keep quite when it comes to my son's health. You can't change this coach's philosophy, but you can certainly make sure he doesn't put your kids future in jeopardy. I hope everything goes well with your son and he suffers no further health issues. Luckily for us, my son is a senior now with no further instances, but his pitch count is strictly monitored.

The only thing that will slow down what anyone sees as pitching overuse/abuse is to come up with some kind of system that takes in enough factors so it’s reasonably valid, make sure whatever limits are determined are easy to understand and understood by everyone, but most importantly, the players, parents, and coaches all have to be on the same page.

 

But what’s sad is, usually only one of the 3 parties is interested until something bad happens. The players are conditioned to be “manly” and to say they’re tired or sore is being very unmanly. Not all parents have the drive to learn about the pros, cons, and consequences, so they often overreact. And coached are so conditioned to be unchallenged, when they are it’s taken as an affront to their authority and knowledge, even if all that’s happening is a parent being concerned.

I have slept on it and haven't sent the email yet.  I have had numerous face to face conversations with the HC, face to face talks are not an issue.  However, the problem with face to face talks with people that won't own their actions, in my experience, they tend to deny deny deny that the conversation took place.  I choose the email route to avoid that issue when it comes to major topics like this one, paper trails are nice to have down the road if things go sideways.

 

On face value I tend to agree with others in the sentiment that 106 is not necessarily a horrible number.  He was cruising, no long innings, felt great, showed no signs f fatigue and wanted to go more....what kid that age wouldn't?

 

The weather was absolutely perfect, probably upper 70's.  This was only his second time on the mound this season, and he is the daily SS.  I had already laid the foundation that if they were to use him as a pitcher, it would be in the last game of the week.

 

A 70/75 pitch limit was set by the V HC last season after the other case that I mentioned.  There was absolutely no reason for any of the JV pitchers to go that long, especially with the philosophy the JV HC has been using up until this game...which is the LL approach, if you don't play today, you play next game, regardless of talent level.

 

I can understand a pitcher , later in the season, on V, maybe when the team is jockeying for a seeding position in the District playoffs, or maybe even in a District playoff game, but definitely not JV.  So, that will be my parameters set forth in  the email.  Unless he is pulled up to supplement the V staff when JV season is over, his pitch limit from this point forward will be 70 pitches+- finishing a batter, and still on ly the last game of the week.

 

maybe I am over reacting after Lefthooks injury, who was last years #1 and starting CF when not pitching....I just won't take the chance....there is no logical reason to do so,

You are not overacting, you are doing your job protecting him against stupid coaches.

 

However, being the everyday short stop and being a starting pitcher really isnt the best thing for a young pitcher. IMO.

Lefthookdad,

 

You are a better man than I .... I would have had a conversation asap.  And knowing me it would have not been pretty.  Going into this season I asked my sons to go to the coach and discuss pitch counts... I also had major concerns about 2018 pitching V and playing SS on the JV..

 

Tomorrow 2016 is throwing for the third time and his pitch limit is 75....this is the coaches rule and I will hold him to it.

 

106 at this level is insane.  I know some players will say I felt great, but the adult ( coach) has to do a better job.

That's not an unrealistic number of pitches for a HS kid... later in the year. Generally kids aren't going 100+ pitches (even while being efficient like your son was) in March. That's pretty darn early.

 

It's not terrible abuse but it isn't exactly great either. I know how you are feeling, I am sure of it. But I'd probably skip saying anything and give the coach another chance and see what happens of it. If he's eclipsing 115 or anything like that, you then have ammo in the bank to take to a meeting.

As a pitching coach I like about a 75 or 80 tops pitching limit early on.  But honestly I am not sure 106 is so bad if he has been throwing for some time now.  The point I guess is we as coaches should error on the side of safety.  In reality since most serious players start throwing in january your son was probably ready to throw 100+ pitches.  But the final kicker is the fact it is a JV game.  No way he should throw that much this early in a JV game.  I think there is a middle ground here between being furious and letting it go.  I would e mail (agree with you about wanting it on record) and put it on yourself rather than the coach...  "dear coach I know I am probably a little paranoid after what happened to left, but when right threw 100+ pitches so early in the season the other night it made me really nervous.  Great game by the way.  I would really like to have a conversation about pitch limits going forward.  Really not trying to cheat the team of my son's efforts but if I didn't guard his arm after what happened to my older son I am not sure I could forgive myself"  By putting it on yourself like that it defuses things a bit.

Kyle, I agree...that pitch count is not egregious, just unacceptable at this point in the season and on JV.  I did send the email and just pointed out to he V HC that this activity was an issue last year, and resulted in an injury to a player.  I also reminded him that HE is responsible for development and safety of the entire HS program.  That he needs to be involved with the JV program, not just turn a blind eye as to what is happening.  I held back on any demands and choice words and only asked that he deal with the JV HC, as that I thought it was probably not a good idea for me to talk to that coach right now.  

jolietboy, some great points, and the reason I held off sending the email until last night.  I have had numerous conversations with these coaches.  They are both former college pitchers, and the V HC is a former minor leaguer.  The V HC is not much better when it comes to using pitchers.  He used his #1 guy for 90+ pitches in the first pre-season game this year.  So, there is not much faith in the coaching staff doing what is best for the kids.

At our parents meeting this year, our coach brought up the new pitching rules and explained that he did not agree with them.  He thinks a kid in HS should be able to throw 120 pitches in a game without issue.  The issue with how many pitches a pitcher can throw in a game is when he gets tired and loses form, but not to worry as the coaches will watch out for form breakdown and be ready to pull the pitcher.  You can rest a week and do it again.  To me it's not worth the risk.

I think solely relying on pitch count is always a mistake. A lot of variables go into to when a pitcher should be at what workload. The OP obviously knows is kid, but I mean the others saying 80 pitches "this early" is a mistake. The overall plan for development and where he is on that arc is what matters.

 

We had a kid throw 80 pitches last week, and I was perfectly comfortable with it. Kid that started the second game for us was pulled at twenty five in the middle of an inning. Our team is at the same point in the season, but these two kids are in vastly different places. Managing arm health is more than just a pitch count.

Having 4 sons that pitch at different levels I feel I have some insight to pitch counts.  A lot of this depends on the pitchers age, how much he has already throw, body type , the way in which he pitches etc  

 

I honestly feel that in any JV game if and when said pitcher was at 93 he should have been pulled.  He ended up with 106, but he could have ended up with 126.  There was no reason, none why the pitcher should return to a JV game in the 8th inning already having thrown 93 pitches...

 

IF this was a jr/sr pitcher throwing district or playoffs I can see climbing to 115-120.... but this was not the case.  The coach was wrong, he made a bad decision.  The HC coach should have a clear pitch count rule for JV.

 

There are good high school coaches and there are bad high school coaches.  Everyone wants to win. Putting rules in place to avoid this is the best way to handle it.

 

I know as a parent its easy to get mad, and then think of the

consequences that talking to the coach might have on the ret of the season.. but you have to take care of your son.  2018 throws hard and his V coach has him at 50.... for the entire season.... he understands that while he can win games he is a freshman with a 15 year old arm... he is thinking of the kids future .

 

Frankly, my  sons college coaches are far better about pitch counts, innings, arm care, etc than the high school coaches ever were.

To me it is a philosophical issue.

 

At the JV level you need to have limits set on how far a pitcher will go, not see how far he can go. You don't just wing it.  Set a limit - pitches or innings, whatever your method - and stick with it.

 

Seriously, in the 8th inning of a JV game the pitcher is probably facing 2nd or 3rd string batters. The starter has done his job, now get some other guys out there for an inning or two. The worst thing that will happen is you will lose.

 

 

I will agree with those that have no problem with a HS pitcher throwing 106 pitches over 8 innings. That's cruising, actually. I do have an issue with doing it in a JV game. It seems rather stupid. This is obviously a kid you're going to be depending on next year if not playoff time this year. Why risk anything over a JV win? Jv should be simply for getting in mound experience and development. Nothing else.

 

Colorado implimented pitch count rules, but they ended up tabling them for one year. Our HS coach has decided to use those for JV. The pitch count rules will be different for varsity and JV. Varsity must leave the mound at 115 pitches and rest four days, JV must leave nad rest the same at 86 pitches. You have to be somewhat careful to watch the coaches in this manner. My son, after playing on varsity Saturday - first game of the year (only got one ph appearance) - started the jv game on the mound. He did pitch three innings, but cruised. 41 pitches and struck out all nine batters he faced. Some on the jv wanted to leave him in even though we had a 14-0 game just for the purpose of seeing if he could throw a perfect five inning game with 15 K's (it looked possible the way he was dominating). The varsity HC happened to be on the bench though and basically responded with "Who gives a %^*& about a jv game? He's only pitching to get in some work so he's ready for next weekend's varsity tourney." I liked the attitude.

Maybe they are getting him ready for varsity action this year.

 

Maybe they want to see if he could start and complete varsity games for them next year.

This is sad all the way around. The sooner we get these coaches out of the game the better off everyone will be.

 

I'm talking off the top of my head but I think one study suggests pitchers pitch 5 pitches for each year of age. Now I think this is a little conservative but for a 15 year old jv pitcher 75-80 pitches is not a bad number.  There is NO reason a jv player should throw 106 pitches. I will say I am impressed that he averaged like 13 pitches an inning.

 

Our jv pitchers are limited to 50 in their first start, varsity a little more 60ish. Increasing with each start. My jv pitch count is 75.  Rarely have we had a varsity guy pitch much over 100.

I've held my tongue long enough. I know that my opinion is not going to be popular, but I'm tired of bashing on coaches unnecessarily. Parents need to look in the mirror when it comes to injuries. Do coaches make poor decisions? Sure. Is 106 pitches in an early season game too many? Probably so. IF that pitcher hasn't been throwing all winter long already and has his arm in "mid-season form." 

 

young gun talks about his son feeling a pop in his elbow 3 months after throwing "around 100 pitches." How can you claim that one particular outing led to that? What about the pitching lessons? The showcases? The radar gun? Fall ball leagues? Winter leagues? 10 games in a weekend? Pitchers are throwing WAY TOO MUCH. Combine that with scientifically-flawed "recovery efforts" that baseball won't let go.

 

Before y'all cast stones, you may want to make sure you've been perfect yourselves. 

Each state's UIL organization needs to set a pitch count that cannot be exceeded and pitch counts with certain mandatory days of rest. 

 

Right now the rules are so loose that there might as well not be any rules. 

 

Parents shouldn't have to worry every time their son pitches in a game, whether his arm will be abused by a coach. 

 

 

I was with you until this little nugget. Totally unhelpful. Like a pro athlete refusing to take criticism from a sportscaster who did not previously play as a pro in that sport. Nobody is perfect and this rationale makes coaches above question. That's the epitome of non-helpful.

 

In a vacuum, I'd say 106 pitches under the circumstances is not terrible. But it is barely reasonable/explainable, especially for a JV game early. So caution is needed in how to communicate/confront the HC, AFTER calm heads prevail. And looks like they have. Good luck.

I would like to point out the repeatedly made hypocritical comment about this not being acceptable "FOR A JV GAME." 

 

Can someone explain that logic? If it's not acceptable to push a kid for a JV win, what makes it ok for a varsity win? Are HS varsity games the gold standard? Everyone's screaming at the coaches, but every one seems ok with this gross abuse, as long as it occurs one level up. Very confusing. 

 

What should a Junior on JV be allowed to throw, compared to a Freshman on varsity? So for a college conference game what doesthe moral compass say?

 

It's either about arm care for kids or it's not. 

I think ironhorse has this right.  In fact I'd go a step further and say there is no such game played in so called "amateur" baseball worth overextending a pitcher.  In fact even in professional baseball it has become so rare that what happened in the World Series became such a headline.

 

It is kind of interesting that in the OP the pitch count is 106 and not the 160 (or more) that it might have been not too long ago.

Ironhorse, for me it's the age difference and point of development of the body.  Simply, pitch counts should be a bit lower for a 14 yo freshman than for a 17 yo junior. 

 

Additionally, I certainly agree that abuse should not happen at either level, of course.  But at JV, you are supposed to be developing several potential pitchers for V.  So, the idea of even coming close to a pitch count doesn't make much sense to me when you theoretically should have several other young arms that need to see game innings.  At V, you are trying to win games, so are more likely to throw your best pitchers close to the SAFE limits.

 

Again, I totally agree with the premise that safe arm care should be in place in both instances.

That makes sense and that's my point. The 14-year old needs 14-year old arm care, not varsity arm care, and the 17 yo needs 17 yo not JV arm care. That's what needs to be looked at in this instance.

 

We play a lot of tournaments early, so sometimes subvarsity pitch counts get extended simply due to not having enough arms we'd like to see, but overall I agree completely with the philosophy.

What role should a high school coach play in the strengthening and conditioning aspect of a pitcher's arm care?  I have no agenda and I don't want to start a pissing match, but I am curious how the coaches on the board view this.

It comes down to coaches with the proper perspective, parents and administrators that hold everyone accountable and athletes that understand it doesn't have anything to do with how manly or tough you are.

 

I have already scouted one of our opponents twice and the first starting pitcher pitched a complete game the first game of the season at around 150 pitches.  I also saw their #2 starter come in the the 3rd and pitch 7 innings in  a game that ended in the bottom of the 9th.  143 pitches.   This was the 1st and 3rd game for the team both against county rivals.

 

Parents had no issue.

 

I feel like my job is to instruct them on how to maintain their arms. I give my kids written programs for weights, arm exercises, long toss programs, and we supply them Jaeger bands during the school year.

 

That being said, i'm not going to be with them enough to fully oversee the program, so they have to have accountability. 

 

I try to give them the knowledge of how to keep it healthy, and it's up to them to adhere to or augment that program.