Excessive pitching......

Yup, similar to Ironhorse, we don't have the kids all year.  Many, we just have for 2-3 months during the season.  We try to educate and advise regarding proper arm care during the course of the year.  For when they are not with us, we recommend a schedule of throwing and include a lengthy rest period.  This is different for each player depending on travel/club participation, other sports, etc.  For when they join us, we communicate and monitor where each pitcher is at regarding how much they have been throwing prior to joining us, any injuries or issues, gradual building up in a logical sequence, etc.  With each pitcher, we make sure they go through proper building up of flat ground work, long toss, short pens w/FB only, then FB, change, then full assortment.  Short inter-squads with pitch types matching where they are in pen sessions. Then gradual introduction into game innings.  We have a few winter sport guys who are just now seeing their first innings and we are 15 games into our season.  We do our best to schedule weekly bullpen sessions for every pitcher on days that allow proper rest between appearances.  It's tough on a small program with usually no PO's but HC is great about adherence.

We teach and encourage use of J-bands as well as identification and differentiation between soreness and pain.  We educate on proper strengthening exercises for pitchers and caution against certain types of lifting that may be harmful or counterproductive.  We include med ball and band exercises but do not have access to proper gym/workout equipment.  We often fail at getting the football players to adjust their year-long max lifting program during the baseball season.  We are not successful at getting complete buy-in nor are we able to maintain constant policing of each player.

I'm not going to rehash what ironhorse and cabbagedad have said because they nailed it.  Only thing we can do is lead them to water.  They have to be the ones to drink it.  

One thing I will say that I don't believe they hit on is what does a kid do if he gets conflicting instruction?  Let's say I tell him to do ABC and his private coach says do XYZ.  I tell my guys this will happen from time to time and we all need to communicate because the health and safety of the kid is priority.  I have no problem changing or having the kid do XYZ if that's what's best for him.  I just want to make sure that XYZ is beneficial and accurate.  

There are lots of ideas out there some are better than others. As long as they don't screw up good mechanics I'm open. We don't really have many guys close to be pitching instructors so its not a huge worry. I have to worry about the internet more than anything else.

@ cabbagedad

We are a small program about 650 kid 9-12.

Although we only have the kids for season Feb to late may we do remain active with them when possible. Luckily we only have a few dead periods.

We  start in June opening the weight room they are voluntary workouts but we are having more kids. Pitchers have throwing program and will do some bullpen work depending on what else is going on. We don't have a ton of kids in travel ball mostly because we compete in a wood bat league so we also have open  diamonds to practice for .  we don't have much contact  throughout august so kids have to workout on their own.  We split practice time between myself the varsity hc and assistant so we don't kill ourselves.

Then we have a fall ball league we do have to fight football over kids so we don't have a huge number of kids out. Most kids have time off over the winter until we open batting cage in january

Whenever I run into that situation I try and talk to the kids about the "why" piece of the instruction. I have very clear reasons for what I believe is the way to do things, but it's not "my way or the highway" at all. If the kids private coach explains the "why" to him and he likes that better, that's fine, after all it's the kids baseball career. (If the private guy can't or won't explain the "why" then run away). In the end, if the kid isn't getting the results he simply falls behind. If he is getting the results everyone wins.

I will say it is pretty frustrating/disappointing when a kid doesn't buy into your method and you're pretty confident it would help him out. I have one on my team now that is performing as an above average HS player, I just feel like he had so much more potential in him if he had done things a little differently starting a couple of years back. But. like I said, in the end it's his career, and all we can do as coaches is make suggestions, not force buy-in.

I've run into this as both a HS pitching coach and as a private instructor, so I've seen both sides of the coin and both are frustrating. Following is how I treated it as a coach.

If a kid is doing something that is off of what I am trying to teach them and they seem attached to it (often Dad is because he's paying fo it), we talk. Do it your way and if you are producing I have no problem. If you are really producing then I might have to take a look at what you're being taught and see if I want to rethink my own instruction. However, if you aren't producing then we'll try it my way or you will find yourself on the bench. I'm much more likely to let a pitcher struggle through bad outings when I'm confident that what he is doing has a chance of correcting the problem. If I'm not confident, then I'm likely to pull the plug early. If you are using mechanics I don't agree with and getting shelled, I'm very unlikely to keep rolling you out there using those mechanics.

Originally Posted by Cheesy Curve:

…I have already scouted one of our opponents twice and the first starting pitcher pitched a complete game the first game of the season at around 150 pitches.  I also saw their #2 starter come in the the 3rd and pitch 7 innings in  a game that ended in the bottom of the 9th.  143 pitches.   This was the 1st and 3rd game for the team both against county rivals.

Parents had no issue.

I’m not saying any of these apply to you, but is any of them at all possible?

There was no parental issue because the parents of those pitchers:

Are generally ignorant about the dangers of overuse?

Are afraid if they say anything at all there will be reprisals?

Don’t say anything where you would hear about it?

This is a district rival and little brother of #1 plays on a travel team with one of our kids brother that I help the team with their pitchers.  And at least that parent says they trust the coach he has had lots of success as an overall coach.  

Originally Posted by Cheesy Curve:

This is a district rival and little brother of #1 plays on a travel team with one of our kids brother that I help the team with their pitchers.  And at least that parent says they trust the coach he has had lots of success as an overall coach.  

Rival or not, how likely is it that at least one of the things I mentioned might be true?

Towards this thread, I'll submit the following personal experience.  BFS Jr. is working on a little tweak to his arm action, and had two relatively long back to back outings in big district games.  He has one start per week.  After the second outing he mentioned some shoulder tightness, and soreness which lasted a few days.  He has experienced some light soreness after a start before, but (knock on wood) has had zero arm problems.

Being a concerned parent, I sent the coach an email letting him know that Jr. is the type of kid (pretty typical in my opinion) that will not communicate this with his coach for fear of missing a start.  Here is the email exchange:

From me:

Hello Coach,

Just wanted to let you know that Jr. has been having some persistent shoulder tightness, and a little soreness on the front of his shoulder.  He is typically a little sore right after a long outing, but normally it goes away fast, this has lingered a little longer.  We have been doing as much nightly post throwing arm care as we can, and he told me yesterday it was a little better.  He is going to try to work in a short bullpen today.  I’m trying to get him to understand the difference between being sore (not a bad thing), and pain (not a good thing)…..however he is the kind of kid that will rarely complain of pain for fear of not having the chance to compete.  For this reason, I wanted to bring it to your attention…I’m not confident he will communicate it to you.  We have made good strides in shortening his arm action, and as he improves this, my expectation is that some of the stress on the shoulder will be lessened.  This could also be from the past two games, just getting used to being stretched out with his innings.  I’ll ask him how he feels after today’s practice, and get more treatment in this evening.

Best regards,

BFS

______

Reply from Coach:

I would have loved to hear something like that from ANY of Righthooks coaches.....I never received a response from email.   Sounds like you have a Coach that actually cares.

@stats4gnats

I gave the example of that parent because I think it is more that for some reason they trust the head coach and he has them convinced that 160 pitches in one game is not a bad thing that early in the season.

#3 is s possibility, but I know at least he once parent, at least says they have talked to the coach.

#2 No

#1  I think goes with the point I was trying to make,  I don't know that I would totally call it ignorance but the kids/parents/coaches from this school are very much about winning and coach has convinced them that if the kids are healthy and have plenty of rest between starts there is no issue.

Being an official supporter of the PitchSmart guidelines, I understand there is no perfect solution to preventing injury. Every individual is different, general guidelines are more universal.  However, you have to start somewhere.  Without guidelines we will always see cases of abuse.  Even with guidelines we will continue to see abuse.

Take the PitchSmart pitch count guideline... If most professional pitchers are on pitch counts, what level of play makes it right to allow that "give us another innng" attitude.  Are those wins that important that we should risk young arms?

That said nearly every arm surgery is a result of one or more of the following issues.

Poor conditioning

Fatigue

Poor mechanics

Genetics

Over usage

Insufficient recovery time

Other injuries that change mechanics

Lack of knowledge

Bad mound

Bad luck

One thing that we have noticed that seems to coincide with all the TJ surgeries.  20 years ago we would get excited seeing a high school pitcher touching 90 mph.  The 90 back then has become the 95 of today.  HS kids throwing 90 are easy to find these days.  I read that there are 52 MLB pitchers that have touched 100mph.  There might have been one 20 years ago.  So to me, there is no doubt that throwing high velocity is associated with the increase in injuries.

Here is the problem... What are the top colleges and MLB organizations looking for?  While the kid throwing mid 90s might have more risk of injury, he also has the best chance for success and to become wealthy and famous.  What do you call a HS pitcher throwing upper 90s? We could think he is an injury waiting to happen.  However what we really call him is a first rounder!

Because the best pitchers and hardest throwers are those most likely to win games, they end up throwing a lot more than other pitchers. It's not the bad pitchers logging the most innings.

There is definitely a risk and reward component involving pitching.  The best pitchers are the most likely to get hurt, but they also are the ones everyone wants.  It's not the soft tossers suffering the most injuries, but they're not the ones getting college scholarships and a big MLB signing bonus.  So there is an automatic risk involved with the success or reward. That is precisely why guidelines are helpful, even if not perfect for every pitcher.  It's simply giving young pitchers enough room to develop their ability, while eliminating gross abuse in the interest of winning a game.

In my mind, it is about education, educating coaches and parents in the interest of protecting young arms.  Even with rules and regulations there will be arm injuries, but maybe not as many caused by abuse or ignorance. 

Originally Posted by Cheesy Curve:

I gave the example of that parent because I think it is more that for some reason they trust the head coach and he has them convinced that 160 pitches in one game is not a bad thing that early in the season.

#3 is s possibility, but I know at least he once parent, at least says they have talked to the coach.

#2 No

#1  I think goes with the point I was trying to make,  I don't know that I would totally call it ignorance but the kids/parents/coaches from this school are very much about winning and coach has convinced them that if the kids are healthy and have plenty of rest between starts there is no issue.

It’s interesting that you believe no parent believes there might be some kind of reprisal if they question the coach, especially in an environment where winning is everything. Even on our team which is really not competitive this year, I’ve heard “grumblings” about what might happen if they spoke to the coach about their child’s role.

Another curious question. What does the coach feel is adequate rest, and does it only apply to starts? I have come across coaches who are very careful about rest between starts, but often throw a starter in a relief role. An example would be for a pitcher to start on Monday and go for 90 pitches, then throw a few innings on Thursday, and not start again until the next Monday. On the face of it he’s had 7 days between starts, but the reality is very different. Because of that, for a long time now one of the reports I kick out for everyone to get a look at is the attached.

@stats4gnats

My reference in this situation is to the parents of those 2 pitchers I referenced.  One I don't have a much experience with but the other through helping with a travel team I have been exposed to.   One kid plays an excellent first base, the other 2b and both are good hitters as well, parents could complain all they want but I don't see it likely that there would be reprisals. 

Never really talked to him about it.

Originally Posted by Cheesy Curve:

My reference in this situation is to the parents of those 2 pitchers I referenced.  One I don't have a much experience with but the other through helping with a travel team I have been exposed to.   One kid plays an excellent first base, the other 2b and both are good hitters as well, parents could complain all they want but I don't see it likely that there would be reprisals. 

I think reprisals are a bit overblown as far as what actually happens, but are a real deterrent to any kind of “complaining” none-the-less. As far as what parents do, I think that’s as far ranging as anything else, but I suspect parents of the “better” pitchers are so enthralled seeing their kid out there performing, they really aren’t worrying a lot about much else.

Never really talked to him about it.

Maybe it would be a good idea for parents of pitchers to actually find out what the coach’s ideas about such things are. In any case, it sure couldn’t hurt.

Sorry I forgot that attachment. Here it is.

@pgstaff

I totally agree about velocity.  We are sort of stuck in a self fulfilling prophecy.

I want to respond to pitchsmart guidelines.  In general I'm very supportive of the entire initiative but it is hard to take  study/guidelines completely seriously when they suggest that an 8 year old pitcher can throw 50 pitches Monday , have a birthdayon Saturday come back and throw 75 pitches.  Or just the idea of a pitcher in general aging one year and increasing his number of pitches that much.  That doesn't mean that the guidelines are bad.  No set of guidelines is ever going to perfect.

There are 10+ factors that go into these injuries and number of innings pitched is probably only a small percentage.

Good point, but I'm sure they mean season to season age.  Remember that these are guidelines, not necessarily rules at this point.  

Still 8-9 difference being 25 pitches doesn't seem like that can be based on any science.  I can see a bigger than annual jump between a kid  before puberty and after.  But Yes they are guidelines and I don't think any will ever be perfect.

I think often, situations are ignored. For younger kids (16 and under), strict guidelines protect the pitcher from long-term negligent overuse. That's all they are intended to do. It's important to note that, while there are times when accute injuries occur, we're talking about long-term damage caused by excessive pitching - especially when fatigued - that generally shows up in later stages of a pitcher's career. Exhibit one seems to be MLBs strategy of blaming too much pitching early for damage that shows up in major league pitchers at 28-35 years of age. A high school coach, for example, needs to know how long and at what level a kid has been pitching and what kind of load he carries over the summer. Let's look at two examples and say they are both seniors:

Kid A) he has been a high level pitcher since he was 9u and playing 7-8 months per year. He's going to play at the next level.

Kid B) Played a little rec as a kid and is a high school athlete who doesn't play summer ball. Really only started pitching much in high school.

I think the hs coach has a responsibility to both, but can make pitching decisions that are horrible for one, but would be a non-issue for the other.

Let's say toward the end of the high school season when the team is chasing a state title, HC starts riding Pitcher A. Throwing him 130 pitches an outing with three days rest in between. This is a very irresponsible move. The load he's putting on this kid may not lead to an immediate injury, but he's putting that on top of years of excessive pitching and, for this kid, there are more years of this to come.

Kid B used the same way, I probably don't have aproblem with. This use is unlikely to affect his life at all. he's not playing on the next level, so this is it for him. His last shot at baseball glory - go for it. He's taking a temporary increased work load, but he's not oputting that on top of years of excessive wear and tear and he won't be piling year's more of it on top of his senior season. That's why the story last year of the pitcher throwing 190 pitches (maybe I'm exaggerating a little?) didn't throw me into the rage that some felt. That kid was ending his HS career. He was done pitching not long after that. It was unlikely that this performance meant anythig to his arm, health-wise for the future.