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Feedback on Video... and Injury Help (Indiana/Ohio)

S SnowBall10+ posts
This is composite post. My son is away from home playing ball in a college league this summer. He has been tweaking his throwing motion and now he think he's messed up some things because he is in a good bit of pain that he can't seem to shake. He sent me the following video that he took with a teammate...

What I see is (a) lack of starting hip rotation and lack of core recoil (b) locked left leg, (c) stiff back and shortened follow-through.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=itXZ-UpBW6Q

Am I correct? Anyone see anything different?

He is a catcher and someone noted that he normally pulls arm straight back past ear... sort of old school. He is now trying to incorporate more of "circle" motion per Paul Bernstorf (see http://www.kudda.com/clinic/Catchers:_Throwing_Mechanic..._throwing_mechanics).

He started catching in Junior year of HS and has various arm issues since. As soon as one issue gets fixed, anothe pops up. Started with rotator... which is fine now. But, now problem is elbow, near TJ point.

Anyone know of someone that really understands throwing mechanics AND arm physiology... in the Indiana/Ohio area (which is where he is).

Thanks!!!!
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T thepainguy1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by SnowBall:
He has been tweaking his throwing motion and now he think he's messed up some things because he is in a good bit of pain that he can't seem to shake.


First of all, pain is never good. He should shut down and go see a doctor.

Second, his Throwing Arm Side elbow gets quite high; above the level of his shoulders like this...



This can lead to rotator cuff problems. I don't like the elbow to get above the level of the shoulders.

Third, he seems to show the ball to 2B/CF. This can increase the strain on the UCL. He should show the ball to 3B.
WalesWales1,000+ posts
thepainguy,

Just so that I'm clear in my mind about what you are talking about.

Can you please post a pic or two that clearly defines

quote:
he seems to show the ball to 2B/CF...He should show the ball to 3B


I'm pretty sure I know what you are talking about but I want to make sure before I jump to a conclusion

Thanks!
B BobbleheadDoll5,000+ posts
Pain you are right ,pain is never good especially when it comes from you.

The guy is a catcher and the video shows nothing but 2 guys playing catch.

Doc I am sure you know every coach from here to Timbucktoo teaches a pitcher to rotate the ball at the full **** position towards 2nd base. Our resident genius of couse disagrees.
Pain you are totally incorrect. you know nothing about pitching.
T thepainguy1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
Doc I am sure you know every coach from here to Timbucktoo teaches a pitcher to rotate the ball at the full **** position towards 2nd base. Our resident genius of couse disagrees.


I know they teach this.

The problem is that this isn't what 90% of pitchers do. Instead, most show the ball to SS or 3B.

For example...







You'll also notice the lack of the "L".

You guys need to start comparing what people are teaching to what the best pitchers in the world actually do.
T thepainguy1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Doc_K:
thepainguy,

Just so that I'm clear in my mind about what you are talking about.

Can you please post a pic or two that clearly defines

quote:
he seems to show the ball to 2B/CF...He should show the ball to 3B


Here's an example of what is usually taught.



Notice the...

- High elbow
- Showing the ball to 2B/CF
- The "L"

Notice how this isn't what you see in this frame of Greg Maddux.



Notice the...

- Low elbow
- Showing the ball to 3B
- The "V"

My inclination is to do what the greats do, not what some coach says I should do.
Last edited by thepainguy
M micmeister500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by thepainguy:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc_K:
thepainguy,

Just so that I'm clear in my mind about what you are talking about.

Can you please post a pic or two that clearly defines

quote:
he seems to show the ball to 2B/CF...He should show the ball to 3B


Here's an example of what is usually taught.



Notice the...

- High elbow
- Showing the ball to 2B/CF
- The "L"

Notice how this isn't what you see in this frame of Greg Maddux.



Notice the...

- Low elbow
- Showing the ball to 3B
- The "V"

My inclination is to do what the greats do, not what some coach says I should do.


Maddux is already flexing forward in this picture. You need to show the entire delivery in frame sync.
M micmeister500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by thepainguy:
quote:
Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
Doc I am sure you know every coach from here to Timbucktoo teaches a pitcher to rotate the ball at the full **** position towards 2nd base. Our resident genius of couse disagrees.


I know they teach this.

The problem is that this isn't what 90% of pitchers do. Instead, most show the ball to SS or 3B.

For example...







You'll also notice the lack of the "L".

You guys need to start comparing what people are teaching to what the best pitchers in the world actually do.


What pitch would you guys say these pitchers are throwing??? Their thumbs are tucked, so it's not a fastball. The arm is going to be bent in on a curve or breaking pitch, isn't it??? No need for a whip action on an off speed pitch!
T thepainguy1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by micmeister:
quote:
Originally posted by thepainguy:
quote:
Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
Doc I am sure you know every coach from here to Timbucktoo teaches a pitcher to rotate the ball at the full **** position towards 2nd base. Our resident genius of couse disagrees.


I know they teach this.

The problem is that this isn't what 90% of pitchers do. Instead, most show the ball to SS or 3B.

For example...







You'll also notice the lack of the "L".

You guys need to start comparing what people are teaching to what the best pitchers in the world actually do.


What pitch would you guys say these pitchers are throwing??? Their thumbs are tucked, so it's not a fastball. The arm is going to be bent in on a curve or breaking pitch, isn't it??? No need for a whip action on an off speed pitch!


Definitely a 4-Seam fastball in the case of Johnson. Probably a 4-Seam fastball in the case of Clemens. Definitely a 2-Seam fastball in the case of Maddux.

The three-point fastball grip is a myth. Most pros use a 4-point grip with the thumb tucked underneath.

Also, the arm action is going to be pretty much identical between a fastball, change-up, or curveball. The only difference is the grip and the degree of pronation or supination.

Otherwise you'd tip your pitches.
T thepainguy1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by LOW337:
that you can defend any argument with a photo that supports it......the painguy is implying that you can TEACH a kid to get where Maddux, Clemens, Johnson etc... are in those photos with the low elbow prior to the pitch.....


I teach kids to keep their elbows below the level of their shoulder every day.

It's just a function of where and how you break your hands.
deemaxdeemax500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by micmeister:
quote:
Originally posted by deemax:
mic
quote:
Their thumbs are tucked, so it's not a fastball.





So, are you saying they ARE throwing a fastball? Do you teach to tuck your thumb on a fastball???


What is your arguement Micmiester? Its pretty obvious you made up the "if the thumbs tucked it cant be a fastball" and now your trying to justify it. Many tuck their thumb on a fastball, and some dont. Your quote was grossly inaccurate.....move on.
B BobbleheadDoll5,000+ posts
I just can't remember a scout/trainer saying he was going to train a kid by emulating anyone.
Fact is they break down your delivery into stages making sure you do each properly. One stage makes sure your elbows are at shoulder height. Both of them.
Yean I can just see them saying were going to make a Maddux out of you and a Clemens out of this guy and so on. Most on here would agree there are several types of deliveries but some fundamentals remain constant.
If you are teaching kids you must be out there in the back 40 where no one had a clue.
T thepainguy1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
Pain elbow height is not in relation to the ground. Using you alphabet soup approch , the elbows are at approx shoulder height it you form a "T" with the spine.


This is true at the release point.

However, in terms of Ryan, Maddux, and Johnson it's not true as their PAS forearms pass through the high cocked position.







Notice the elbows below the level of the shoulders.

You guys need to start questioning what you're being told. In a lot of cases, it has no basis in fact or it's just what one random guy does.
Last edited by thepainguy
T thepainguy1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
I just can't remember a scout/trainer saying he was going to train a kid by emulating anyone.


Ask TPM who her son was taught to emulate both at the youth and the college level.


quote:
Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
Fact is they break down your delivery into stages making sure you do each properly. One stage makes sure your elbows are at shoulder height. Both of them.


This may be what people are teaching, but it's not what guys like Greg Maddux and Randy Johnson are actually doing.
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