First Pitch

In most instances I agree with you but game situations may dictate that you do otherwise in certain situations-- we always want to be aggressive--being down 0-1 can put a batter in a hole and he may have seen the best pitch of that at bat.

I tried to work with each hitter individually. Most of my hitters were expected to analyze the situation and make their own decision. Others I would encourage to have a really small "swing zone" on the first pitch.

As TRhit points out, there are many factors. The pitcher, the game situation, how the hitter has been doing, etc.

First Pitch? Interesting! Well, I'm in favor of strike one! That's my favorite pitch in baseball. Seriously, it depends upon a lot of factors including pitch philosophy. I'm a proponent of "pitching backwards." Against a well coached program, 3,4,& 5 will not get a first pitch fastball for a strike to hit but one time thorugh the order. Now, you say, well you're setting the hitter up for success and the pitcher up for failure. Well, most programs will have these young men sit on a fastball and take the breaking pitch. We throw a first pitch breaking pitch except one time we will throw a fastball up and in. Now, should we get behing 1-0, we still have a lot of options. We can throw a fastball strike or we can throw another off speed. Should we get to 2-0, the hitter is sitting on a fastball knowing that we will throw a fastball = we throw a changeup. Now, if you don't practice all of this, you're in big trouble. If you do, you and your pitchers mentally are prepared, you're going to really mess with the opposition. All of this is just my humble opinion. I know all of the experts out there will tear this apart. Theory vs what we do each and every year with success.

All of this means nothing to a well disciplined, well taught hitter.

He isn't going to swing at anything but fastball. We don't care when you throw it. You'll get us out sometimes and we'll hit the ball sometimes. When we hit it, we will drive it.

And, you're going to walk a lot of my hitters.

cvsting

The hitter needs to expect HIS pitch and swing at it when it comes. First pitch, second pitch, 15th pitch. Makes no difference.

If a hitter wants to take a pitch his first time up to get a look at the release and delivery, fine. I'm ok with that. But from there forward, if he's taking HIS pitch, he doesn't need to be playing.

The definition of HIS pitch can change based on the quality of the hitter, quality of the pitcher. Your game experience should educate you as to how they are pitching you and how they expect to get you out. Now, HIS pitch may be something different than it was yesterday.

bbscout said it best. Swing at fastball strikes only. You'll get about 4-6 per game (assuming 4 at bats). Hit any 2 of them hard and you're a .500 hitter. Why concern yourself with all the rest?

Theory v reality! That is, unless you have a majical formula for telling your hitters that the changeup is coming. Also, if a pitcher is well disciplined themselves, they are never going to throw that meat down the middle.

Teacherman

At what age does the "well disciplined, well taught hitter" emerge ??

I am curious

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Originally posted by TRhit:
Teacherman

At what age does the "well disciplined, well taught hitter" emerge ??

I am curious

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After about 4 weeks of preseason work outs with me, he'll know the plan. And he'll have game bp daily to practice the plan. From there, anyone can be fooled. But there is a huge difference between being fooled and not executing your plan.

Once I get game feedback about which it is, then I determine whether he can play for me or not.

Teach,

I disagree, it all does mean something if the coach has a policy that the hitter takes the first pitch, so is the kid going to violate the coaches policy ?

Some coaches I've known would bench a kid if he swung at the first pitch after being told to sit on it.

Teacherman

I asked at what age !!!!!!

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Originally posted by CoachB25:
Theory v reality! That is, unless you have a majical formula for telling your hitters that the changeup is coming. Also, if a pitcher is well disciplined themselves, they are never going to throw that meat down the middle.

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As usual a coach thinks he can save the player on every pitch with a coaching cue. It is overcoaching. You have to realize the pitcher is the favorite. You have to maximize your players chances. You don't do that be teaching him he can cover the entire strike zone. He should take control of HIS happy zone. Dare the pitcher to throw it there and rip it if he does. If the pitcher gets you out hats off to him. He's done his job.

The biggest disgrace is getting yourself out by not having a plan or not executing your plan.

The goals is to play the odds. A good pitcher will get a good hitter out 5 out of 10 times, regardless. Hats off to the pitcher.

Those other 5 at bats are where the money is made. A poor at bat plan, your success will be less than 3. A good at bat plan and maybe 4 or those are successful.

A player with my at bat plan will make sure those 3 or 4 other times are well executed

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Originally posted by cvsting:
Teach,

I disagree, it all does mean something if the coach has a policy that the hitter takes the first pitch, so is the kid going to violate the coaches policy ?

Some coaches I've known would bench a kid if he swung at the first pitch after being told to sit on it.

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Are you kidding me. The coach should be benched for a ridiculous policy. He's taking the bat right out the hands of his best hitters.

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Originally posted by TRhit:
Teacherman

I asked at what age !!!!!!

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Knowing what to do in the box should be and can be learned at a very young age. Say 10-12. Will they be masters of it. No. They will get fooled often. But again, there is a difference between being fooled and poorly executing your plan.

Swinging at a changeup that your sensors told you was a fastball is one thing. Swinging at a changeup that you knew was a change up is something totally different.

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..Also, if a pitcher is well disciplined themselves, they are never going to throw that meat down the middle.

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This is as rare as the steak I ate last night.

At the high school level, you'll see some very good pitching. Even those guys can not locate every time they take the mound. And, they struggle later in the game with fatique.

Without my plan, your hitters will chase anything and everything all game long. Early in the game, or when the pitcher is on, you'll fail no matter what you do. If he's that good. But later in the game, a disciplined hitter, still waitng for the meat, will get it often against a good pitcher who is tiring.

Against average pitching it comes at least once per at bat.

If it is a fastball the hitter can drive, crush it. We use this approach with my 11u team and they rarely get out of a good hitting position. Each one of my hitters are different but each is the same in their approach.

I actually agree with teacherman on this one without splitting hairs.

I like to see most kids, especially those lower in the order be aggressive on the first pitch. That doesn't mean that they should swing at anything, just that if they get their pitch then they should try to hammer it. If the pitcher fools them, then good job by the pitcher and let's set up for the next pitch.

Like anything else you have to pay attention to what the pitcher is throwing and if he sets up a pattern of all off speed or off the plate on the first pitch you have to adjust your approach.

Hitters tend to take a lot of first pitches. That is why it is a good idea for pitchers to throw strikes on the first pitch even if it means giving up some hits to the more aggressive hitters.

At what age do you need to start looking inside vs. outside. Based on the contact point, you're talking about a 4-6 foot difference and therefore would need to anticipate the inside pitch.
Last year, playing as 13U, the pitchers' speed wasn't great enough that we couldn't adjust.

In other words, we could just sit fastball. But I think soon we'll have to start looking in or out. Maybe when the pitching gets into the 80's (mph)??

You don't start looking in and out until the pitchers can consistently do that to you.

Which is probably after high school although you will see an occasional high school pitcher who can do it.

I've yet to see high school pitchers who don't make mistakes. Be ready for them. Expect them. And rip it when it happens.

Teacherman

Are you saying your good hitters are going to be failing hitters without "your" plan ?

I have to agree with Teacherman and all others who plan on hitting the fastball.

Knowing the opposing pitcher is important. There are times to look for the breaking ball or other off speed pitches. Especially with 2 strikes. I’ve always been in favor of hitters developing a 2 strike approach.

Nearly all pitchers throw fastballs. While all these fastballs are not the same quality, for most pitchers the fastball is the pitch they control the best. That’s why they call certain counts, fastball counts. (There’s always exceptions and the higher the level the more likely an exception) A young hitter swinging at anything except fastballs in his zone with no strikes on them is cheating himself. (IMO) He will usually get himself out before he’s seen a good pitch to hit.

The best hitters are looking for fastballs and without 2 strikes they’re looking for fastballs in their best hitting zone. When the good hitter sees the fastball in his zone, he is 100% ready and owns it! Of course, sometimes the good fastball moves.

There are many benefits in gluing in on a zone and looking for one pitch. The biggest benefit is in the hitter’s readiness for that pitch. It may be called guessing, but it isn’t. It should be called expectation.

There is the one situation I’ve brought up before (with some disagreement). It has more to do with winning baseball than personal success, some would say. I understand that argument, but don’t necessarily agree. I think it can benefit personal success as well.

The situation is a hitter leading off an inning with a full count. In the interest of winning, we would practice recognizing what were called 50-50 pitches. In other words those pitches that in theory would be called strike 3 half the time and ball 4 the other half.

While the .500 OB% sounds good to the team, the hitter striking out doesn’t do much for the hitter. Here are some other things we found out. Our hitters were hitting much better in these counts. Because they were gluing in and swinging at strikes and weren’t overly concerned with protecting the plate.

Hitters don’t live on 50-50 pitches. A leadoff hitters job is to get on base. Everyone at one time or another will leadoff an inning. So not only did our hitters have the advantage of (in theory) getting on base .500 in that situation vs a very low % if they’re swinging at 50-50 pitches. They also had the advantage of concentrating on pitches (usually fastballs) that were strikes, often strikes right in their zone. Similiar to the 0 strike approach!

I don’t expect everyone to agree with this type of (percentage baseball) I only know that it worked for us. Yes, it didn’t make it any easier for our hitters when they were called out on strikes. However, in the end I believe it actually helped their batting average. I know this approach helped us win some games.

I would much rather have my hitter punched out than swinging at a pitch he can't handle.....even if it is strike three.

Is that redundant?

I'll weigh in here before we all get wet in the usual TR v. Teacherman p***ing contest.
I pretty much agree with the Teach on this. One of my biggest pet peeves is watching a kid who physically does most things right, but continually gets himself out by refusing to learn patience and discipline in the batters box.
I teach don't swing at anything but fastballs before 2 strikes...period. If a kid is fooled that's one thing. We'll keep working on pitch recognition. However, a young player who continually hacks at breaking or offspeed pitches early in the count will very rarely be successful.
At what age? This should be beat into a kids head starting around age 10 or 11 or whenever he begins to see curve balls.
Even at the high school level,it's the rare pitcher who can consistently throw the breaking ball for strikes. Sit dead red fastball until you have 2 strikes. It's amazing how much more frequently you'll find yourself in good hitter's counts getting good pitches to hit.
As far as the first pitch....if its a fastball in your happy spot come out of your shoes....

rbinaz

Do you subscribe to the theory that at the HS level the best pitch you might see in an at bat is the first pitch ???

How about the ability of the batter in given situations? Do you vary what you do depending on the hitter and his ability to do things in certain situations?

Bottom line for us---we are aggressive and want our guys to jump on the first pitch IF HE LIKES IT!!!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by TRhit:


Do you vary what you do depending on the hitter and his ability to do things in certain situations?
QUOTE]

Are you saying a lesser hitter is better off hitting the pitchers pitch rather than a fastball in his zone?

Or

Are you saying let a good hitter have more discretion and be more selective, thereby taking a pitch you might want someone else to swing at.

I was asking rbinaz a question

Thank you

My bad. For a second there I thought you might have an answer.

I post on what we do. I posted on how we approach First Pitch from a Pitcher's Perspective. We've(I've) had success. We (I)believe in "Repetition is no fun but it's the reason we have won." We (I) believe that our kids can locate. We do this against some of the best competition around. Nuff Said!

School's out!!

It might not be in St. Charles yet. How was that morning walk this morning? Just walk across the Mississippi anytime you'd like.

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Do you subscribe to the theory that at the HS level the best pitch you might see in an at bat is the first pitch ???

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Perhaps, but this is an impossible question to answer. Again, if the first pitch is a fastball in a spot I'm looking for I'm hackin' hard.

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How about the ability of the batter in given situations? Do you vary what you do depending on the hitter and his ability to do things in certain situations?

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If you are asking if I would give the take on the first pitch,the one scenario would be a lesser or less disciplined hitter coming to bat after a 4 pitch walk...and then the planets better be pretty well aligned because you also stand to get a BP fastball in that situation.

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Bottom line for us---we are aggressive and want our guys to jump on the first pitch IF HE LIKES IT!!!

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I guess that's what I meant by:

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As far as the first pitch....if its a fastball in your happy spot come out of your shoes....

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CoachB25:

Please don't tell me Teacherman is from
St. Charles MO. Do you know this for a fact?

THop

Things I know for certain - I still have a lot to learn! I love my kid and wife. I've got the best kids to coach of any person on the planet. WE WILL HAVE A LOT OF LAUGHS AND SOME HEARTACHE THIS YEAR! I love my job and can't wait to get here each day. If I died today, I'd have no regrets!

Thanx rbinaz

No p----ng contest here !!!!

Just great back and forth discussion without attitude
Thanx again

Right back at ya Tom.

Teaching hitters is never a "cookie cutter" process. All hitters are different, with different flaws and strengths. As a coach, it is important to know your kids and to teach a quality plan of attack. As long as your kids understand what you are teaching and buy into it, your plan can work. Many successful programs teach watching the 1st pitch for the majority of their hitters. In our program, we only force kids to lay off the 1st pitch late in a close game. The reason is two-fold: 1- we need baserunners, so hitters must be even more selective than usual to help us start a rally; and 2- many players get overly nervous during crunch time, which forces them to stray from their normal hitting plan and swing at anything in an attempt to "avoid striking out".
Amazingly enough, I agree with most of what Teacherman said here...we teach 1 pitch, 1 spot and having the discipline and mental toughness to control the AB by making good decisions throughout.

I've gotten a little confused from the start of this thread to this point on the thread, but I think I'm in agreement with Coach Knights post for the most part.

Basically in a game situation 1 & 2 spots are to get on base while making that pitcher throw as many pitches as possible giving the rest of the team a chance to see what the pitchers arsenal consists of. After that, everyone is to be aggressive at the plate unless we are in situational baseball in the late innings. I know that's kind of a nutshell but...............

IMHO

I've heard that its okay to take the first pitch your first time up in a game, if that's what you like to do. However, after you've seen the pitcher, or a reliever comes in, go up ready to hit the 1st pitch if its one that you like.

As a general rule we teach our kids to never let a pitcher get ahead of you with a fastball in your zone. In other words when you get in the box you are going to hit your pitch - if its the first one great. If its the fifth one great. We want to be agressive but disciplined. Pitchers dont get good hitters out good hitters get themselves out. Taking the first pitch is a situational thing only. There might be times in a game when you want them to take a pitch. But as a general rule we want to mash first pitch fastball thats a strike. We want to hit fastballs and lay off everything else untill we have two strikes. At some time in every at bat you are going to get a fastball over the plate. It might be a little outside or inside and sometimes it might be right down the middle. But you will never get that pitch if you swing at the other stuff. What happens to a kids head when you have them take the first pitch and its right down the heart for a strike? Ill tell you what "Well there goes my pitch now Im not going to get anything else to hit". We want to dictate to the pitcher. We want him to know that he is not going to throw one fastball for a strike without being challenged. We are going to make him show us that he can get ahead with the off speed consistently. When you sit back and let the pitcher dictate to you, you are in trouble. I am a huge advocate of teaching young kids to be agressive and disciplined. In other words have a game plan when you get in the box. That game plan is when he throws a fastball for a strike crush it. 1st pitch 6th pitch I dont care. And Im going to be disciplined enough to lay of the junk untill I get that pitch. If a team does this they will work a pitcher to death and dictate to him what the story that day is going to be.

I have never been in favor of certain guys in the order taking pitches because thats were they hit in the order. For instance #1 #2 take pitches so we can see his arsenal etc. #1 might not lead off but once that game. #2 might not hit #2 but once that game. Nothing better to me than my #1 taking the first pitch of the game in the gap for a double or a jack. That sends the message that I want to send to the pitcher and the other team. Go ahead try to throw a fastball for a first pitch strike. You better rethink that today fellas. As far as seeing what he has in his arsenal we have plenty of time to see what we need to see. I know this, he has a fastball in his arsenal and if he thinks that he is going to work ahead of us today by throwing it for a first pitch strike he just learned he isnt.

You go coach.