Coach May,
I agree with you. I really like your style and I bet your team is fun to watch.
I need to get down your way in NC.
Thanks. We have been pretty good over the years. Our talent level right now is the best we have had. But even Im smart enough to know thats not what its all about. Redbird we have an assistant coach that lives in VA. Just across the line. Our county borders Va. We just got a transfer in from VA he played for the Virginia Patriots AAU team are you familiar with them? He looks like a pretty good player. Maybe one weekend you can bring down some of your boys and we will let you practice with us on a Saturday. You guys can stay down and use the facilities for the weekend. I probaly can get a local team your age and let you play a dh on Sunday maybe a game Saturday afternoon. PM me and if your interested I would be glad to work it out with you.
interesting. I do usually like my 1 and 2 hitters to work the pitcher a bit. There oba's were right around 50%, so we're not getting hurt too bad by watching him.
Especially in the first inning, I like to get a feel for his delivery and speed. Hard to do that on the first pitch. If he's got something funky in his delivery, or if the ball has a tail, I'd like to find that out quickly.
Having said that, I always wince when a fb right down the middle gets looked at (but that's usually after the first inning).
Especially in the first inning, I like to get a feel for his delivery and speed. Hard to do that on the first pitch. If he's got something funky in his delivery, or if the ball has a tail, I'd like to find that out quickly.
Having said that, I always wince when a fb right down the middle gets looked at (but that's usually after the first inning).
I have taught my players that there is a "1" and "2" hitter every inning. (along with 3,4,5.....nth hitters). It takes an adjustment by players, but with a good balanced line-up I have gotten more productivity(runs) this way IMO. It has paid off the best in tight games in the later innings.
I have found that very few high school hitters are prepared to hit a good fastball on the inside corner when they first step in the box. They usually freeze, pop it up, or hit a foul ball. Either way now we are up in the count. After a couple of times through this sometimes changes and also can be different for a 4-5 hitter. But I like to challenge early when they don't know what's coming rather than behind when they have a better chance of guessing. As far as our approach at the plate we teach that each hitter gets 3 strikes...the hitter's, the umpire's, and the pitcher's. If you are always trying to hit the last two, you are not going to have the success we need. Look fastball early, make the pitcher show he can control the breaking ball. If he throws the fastball in your zone..rip it. We have had good success with this approach.
hscoach,
I'm in agreement with you for the most part..Might have a hitter or two that is ready to rip right out of the gate, but generally they are not. The last two seasons we have had great success and our philosophy is 50 pitches in 3 innings. We are going to sit dead red till two strikes as well.. /we don't always take the first pitch hte first time thru, but will as a general rule be very patience.I i might put the brakes on to make the pitcher work at times. Our best hitter who is now an upper level college player as a freshman swung at the first pitch of ANY at bat very seldomly and I never saw him do it the first time up until the Semi's last year and he grounded into a double play. He had great patience and got his pitch to drive. With two strikes we go no-stride-choke up-open up and get all over the plate.We think A to B and look middle away...
I'm in agreement with you for the most part..Might have a hitter or two that is ready to rip right out of the gate, but generally they are not. The last two seasons we have had great success and our philosophy is 50 pitches in 3 innings. We are going to sit dead red till two strikes as well.. /we don't always take the first pitch hte first time thru, but will as a general rule be very patience.I i might put the brakes on to make the pitcher work at times. Our best hitter who is now an upper level college player as a freshman swung at the first pitch of ANY at bat very seldomly and I never saw him do it the first time up until the Semi's last year and he grounded into a double play. He had great patience and got his pitch to drive. With two strikes we go no-stride-choke up-open up and get all over the plate.We think A to B and look middle away...
Hi Roy,
I found what you wrote quite interesting and revealing. As you indicated yesterday you are working on employing a swing more characteristic of big league hitters with your team. I believe you will see your production increase greatly and more of your hitters will be prepared to play at the next level when you successfully do this.
I am not saying this to be mean spirited so please don’t take it the wrong way. I would not want to be a hitter under your stated philosophy and I wouldn’t allow my sons to be.
This is why.
First of all, you are pretty much limiting your hitters to often one strike an at bat to drive the ball. In many at bats they would have no pitches to drive.
You say you preach extreme patience on the first pitch. This attitude would cause most kids to be quite defensive regardless of what your intentions for them are.
Even with one strike you are preaching dead red. The chances are the second strike will not be dead red. It would more likely be an off speed or a fastball on a corner for strike two.
Now with two strikes, you are telling the kids to change their swing and open up, no stride, and pretty much throw the bat at the ball and look middle away.
You are telling the kids that the pitcher is dictating that they must be on the defense. That causes a lot of kids to be leaning over the plate and chasing breaking balls in the dirt and outside. Any adequate inside fastball will saw them off or freeze them.
Your strategy is dependant on the pitcher having problems or being mediocre rather than on teaching your batters how to sit back and mash. That strategy among other things will never win a state championship because eventually you will run into a decent pitcher that can exploit it.
Once again this is certainly just my take on things and would be interested in other’s take. I am not saying your way is wrong for you, I’m just saying I wouldn’t use it. In fact, many coaches in high school and college use your strategy or similar ones. On the other hand there are several top high school coaches that post here that instead teach their kids to be mashers and that’s the strategy I prefer also. It’s also a lot more enjoyable for the kids but it takes a coach how to instruct them how to mash. Based on yesterday’s conversation, it appears that is your interest.
I found what you wrote quite interesting and revealing. As you indicated yesterday you are working on employing a swing more characteristic of big league hitters with your team. I believe you will see your production increase greatly and more of your hitters will be prepared to play at the next level when you successfully do this.
I am not saying this to be mean spirited so please don’t take it the wrong way. I would not want to be a hitter under your stated philosophy and I wouldn’t allow my sons to be.
This is why.
First of all, you are pretty much limiting your hitters to often one strike an at bat to drive the ball. In many at bats they would have no pitches to drive.
You say you preach extreme patience on the first pitch. This attitude would cause most kids to be quite defensive regardless of what your intentions for them are.
Even with one strike you are preaching dead red. The chances are the second strike will not be dead red. It would more likely be an off speed or a fastball on a corner for strike two.
Now with two strikes, you are telling the kids to change their swing and open up, no stride, and pretty much throw the bat at the ball and look middle away.
You are telling the kids that the pitcher is dictating that they must be on the defense. That causes a lot of kids to be leaning over the plate and chasing breaking balls in the dirt and outside. Any adequate inside fastball will saw them off or freeze them.
Your strategy is dependant on the pitcher having problems or being mediocre rather than on teaching your batters how to sit back and mash. That strategy among other things will never win a state championship because eventually you will run into a decent pitcher that can exploit it.
Once again this is certainly just my take on things and would be interested in other’s take. I am not saying your way is wrong for you, I’m just saying I wouldn’t use it. In fact, many coaches in high school and college use your strategy or similar ones. On the other hand there are several top high school coaches that post here that instead teach their kids to be mashers and that’s the strategy I prefer also. It’s also a lot more enjoyable for the kids but it takes a coach how to instruct them how to mash. Based on yesterday’s conversation, it appears that is your interest.
I respect your opinion on the subject. some of what you said may be true, but listen to what we are really trying to accomplish.. I want them to mash, and not all my guys are taking the first time thru.. remember i said 50 in 3..Lots of times that is in the second 
, but the basic philosophy i have is everyones first time thru to be patient and get your pitch..lay off the offspeed all night unless we have to change..We hope by then if we are facing a tough pitcher that we have all got some great looks and have a better plan of attack..Believe me we aren't up there making 9 consecutive outs, but even if it did happen we would have made the guy work.. Most times you will get 4 at bats..We don't get cheated and by dead red i just meant a fastball that we can drive. not to sound defensive or cocky, but with two strikes we still swing the bat..we don't punch at it like sissies.lol. since you got semi-personal..nt wanting to play for a coach like me.Last year we struck out in 6 playoff series (eleven games 57 times. We played at several minor league venues and did play for the State Champonship. We have won 48 games in the past two seasons and are currently #3 in the state..Former players include Laynce Nix and dozens and dozens more who are currentlly playing D1 college baseball and minor league ball. some of those i was an assistant, but i coach my butt off and have formulated a plan that is working in High School Baseball for us. In 99 we hit 56 jacks before they gotr rid of the -5's..Your kid wouldn't be held up by me i promise. Move on down..could always use a player. 
, but the basic philosophy i have is everyones first time thru to be patient and get your pitch..lay off the offspeed all night unless we have to change..We hope by then if we are facing a tough pitcher that we have all got some great looks and have a better plan of attack..Believe me we aren't up there making 9 consecutive outs, but even if it did happen we would have made the guy work.. Most times you will get 4 at bats..We don't get cheated and by dead red i just meant a fastball that we can drive. not to sound defensive or cocky, but with two strikes we still swing the bat..we don't punch at it like sissies.lol. since you got semi-personal..nt wanting to play for a coach like me.Last year we struck out in 6 playoff series (eleven games 57 times. We played at several minor league venues and did play for the State Champonship. We have won 48 games in the past two seasons and are currently #3 in the state..Former players include Laynce Nix and dozens and dozens more who are currentlly playing D1 college baseball and minor league ball. some of those i was an assistant, but i coach my butt off and have formulated a plan that is working in High School Baseball for us. In 99 we hit 56 jacks before they gotr rid of the -5's..Your kid wouldn't be held up by me i promise. Move on down..could always use a player.
Roy,
I wasn’t trying to get personal, personal and I certainly could have said that better. I should have said not play for you with the philosophy as I conceived through the post. In fact after reading your reply, if we were there, I’m sure every thing would work out well. I know the weather sure is a lot more baseball friendly too.
Congratulations on your success. I would not disagree with the reason you give is that you outwork the other guys. I almost get the feeling that you inherited your “patient” strategy from your predecessor and you are looking at getting your kids just a little more aggressive than they had been in the past.
Best of luck to you this season
I wasn’t trying to get personal, personal and I certainly could have said that better. I should have said not play for you with the philosophy as I conceived through the post. In fact after reading your reply, if we were there, I’m sure every thing would work out well. I know the weather sure is a lot more baseball friendly too.
Congratulations on your success. I would not disagree with the reason you give is that you outwork the other guys. I almost get the feeling that you inherited your “patient” strategy from your predecessor and you are looking at getting your kids just a little more aggressive than they had been in the past.
Best of luck to you this season
Hello everyone,
I think you gentle men are leaving out one key factor, The scouting report.
As you see a hitter though out the season you pick up on his Strengths and weakness, If I have seen a hitter Constanly swing at the frist pitch cause hes looking dead red, I Lable him a first pitch swinger. And throw him something to his weakness. If I pick up on the pitcher as not spotting his pitches, or can't throw his Curveball/Change or what ever for a strike but can get his Fastball in for a strike, I tell my hitters be aggressive, that dosnt mean Swing at something you need a ladder for. You see it there hit it. "See ball, Hit ball"
I think you gentle men are leaving out one key factor, The scouting report.
As you see a hitter though out the season you pick up on his Strengths and weakness, If I have seen a hitter Constanly swing at the frist pitch cause hes looking dead red, I Lable him a first pitch swinger. And throw him something to his weakness. If I pick up on the pitcher as not spotting his pitches, or can't throw his Curveball/Change or what ever for a strike but can get his Fastball in for a strike, I tell my hitters be aggressive, that dosnt mean Swing at something you need a ladder for. You see it there hit it. "See ball, Hit ball"
If the first pitch is hittable, then by all means, hit it............
Quit trying to wait for a mistake pitch......Teach players how to hit and let them do it.....
You Coaches are handicapping your hitters with the dead red philosophy.....Plain and simple, you are.....
Quit trying to wait for a mistake pitch......Teach players how to hit and let them do it.....
You Coaches are handicapping your hitters with the dead red philosophy.....Plain and simple, you are.....
I'm with BlueDog on this one...if you continually try to make decisions for your hitters, they will become passive at best. Hitting is just like pitching...the more you think, the less you are successful. If it's a strike pound it.
There are always situations, but for the most part, let hitters hit!
There are always situations, but for the most part, let hitters hit!
Most of you try to overcoach your hitters......When a hitter gets in the box, leave him alone.....Quit talking to him.....He needs to clear his mind, not wonder what you're telling him......Let him pick the pitch to swing at......He's the one in the box, not you.....Quit filling his head with clutter and let him hit.......Don't handicap him like most of you do.... 
quote:...The scouting report.
...
Read a little deeper.
No one said swing at the first pitch. They said swing at the first good pitch you get no matter what pitch it is.
I've heard many different ways to approach this topic. A style that we like to use is this.
If it's the 1st time the batter has faced the pitcher we take the first pitch. If the pitcher throws a fastball the batter has free reigns to hit the next fastball thrown. If he throws an offspeed pitch the batter should take that also. Now he has seen 2 of his pitches and hasn't shown where he is vulnerable. After the players 1st at bat they are free to swing at the 1st pitch in their next at bat.
Our main goal is to let the other hitters see as many pitches as possible before their 1st at bat. We also want to get their starter out of the game as quickly possible. If each batter takes the first pitch and say hits the second we are looking at a minimum of 18 pitches through the first 9 batters. If the avg pitches per hitter stays the same (unlikely, usually higher) we would have him out around the 5th inning on a 100 pitch count. And if we are behind, a new pitcher could help spark a rally that otherwise wouldn't happen with a dominant pitcher with a low pitch count.
Now, if we recognize that the pitcher throws the most hittable pitch 1st then we cut this philosophy off and swing away. Usually you can tell within the 1st 4 hitters.
I'm not saying this is the best approach but one that I feel we are successful with. Our teams batting avg. is consistently around .350
If it's the 1st time the batter has faced the pitcher we take the first pitch. If the pitcher throws a fastball the batter has free reigns to hit the next fastball thrown. If he throws an offspeed pitch the batter should take that also. Now he has seen 2 of his pitches and hasn't shown where he is vulnerable. After the players 1st at bat they are free to swing at the 1st pitch in their next at bat.
Our main goal is to let the other hitters see as many pitches as possible before their 1st at bat. We also want to get their starter out of the game as quickly possible. If each batter takes the first pitch and say hits the second we are looking at a minimum of 18 pitches through the first 9 batters. If the avg pitches per hitter stays the same (unlikely, usually higher) we would have him out around the 5th inning on a 100 pitch count. And if we are behind, a new pitcher could help spark a rally that otherwise wouldn't happen with a dominant pitcher with a low pitch count.
Now, if we recognize that the pitcher throws the most hittable pitch 1st then we cut this philosophy off and swing away. Usually you can tell within the 1st 4 hitters.
I'm not saying this is the best approach but one that I feel we are successful with. Our teams batting avg. is consistently around .350
Personally I feel that Teacherman has the best approach here and one that we have always followed. Hit the first good pitch. I hated to have to take pitches when I was a player and I dont want my guys taking pitches. Be relaxed be confident and know what you like. If its the first pitch good. If its the fifth pitch fine. But I dont want to put negative thoughts in my players heads. What I have seen is guys taking a first pitch fastball down the heart and then getting down 0-2 when the pitcher throws a deuce on pitch 2 for a strike. Never let the pitcher dictate to you your ab. If he knows that he can not work ahead by throwing first pitch fastballs over the plate you will force him to start you off with his second best pitch. This often leads to you getting up in the count which ultimately leads to you getting a real good pitch to hit if you are disciplined and lay off the poor pitches. JMO
You can't sit on one pitch for an entire at bat b/c a good pitcher will never throw it to you and if they do your only giving yourself 1 chance to hit it. Everyone says a pitcher will make a mistake but the same holds true for the hitter swinging at his 1 perfect pitch.
I have my guys go up and with no strikes they should focus on the zone that they drive the ball best.
With one strike they expand their zone just a little.
With two strikes we are trying to put the ball in play, if it's a pitch we can't hit hard we foul it off.
I have my guys go up and with no strikes they should focus on the zone that they drive the ball best.
With one strike they expand their zone just a little.
With two strikes we are trying to put the ball in play, if it's a pitch we can't hit hard we foul it off.
You can sit on a fastball, and at the high school level you would be foolish not to. If you get 4 AB's, you will get about 4-6 fastballs in the strikezone that you can handle........hit two of them hard and you will be a successful hitter. Take the breaking ball and hit the fastball. Taking the first pitch fastball is one of the main reasons that Greg Maddux has 300 wins. He is ahead of the hitters 0-1 all the time.
bbscout,
Been patiently waiting for someone to say that.
Unless you have a pitcher that throws nothing except breaking balls, why would you swing at anything other than a fastball on the first pitch? Especially at the high school or lower levels. Is there anyone (at any level) whose batting average is higher hitting breaking balls rather than fastballs?
Been patiently waiting for someone to say that.
Unless you have a pitcher that throws nothing except breaking balls, why would you swing at anything other than a fastball on the first pitch? Especially at the high school or lower levels. Is there anyone (at any level) whose batting average is higher hitting breaking balls rather than fastballs?
Jerry, In 1967 in spring training, I was sitting around listening to 3 young players asking Willie Mays questions about hitting. One guy asked him "what is the best way to hit the curve ball". Willie laughed and said "the best way to hit the curve ball is to hit the fastball first".
You guys said it all. There is nothing else to say about this thread. That covers it all.
quote:... With one strike they expand their zone just a little.
With two strikes we are trying to put the ball in play, if it's a pitch we can't hit hard we foul it off.
Gosh I hope my team plays yours.
With one strike you widen the zone. With 2 strikes you widen it more and protect the plate???
Your hitter will lower his BA at least 100 points each time he widens. Why 100....because now he has to not only cover more plate but cover more pitches.
Just sit down if you're going to protect with 2 strikes. That is the biggest 'give up' I've seen in baseball.
How do you think a good pitcher feels when the hitter goes to his 'protect' swing? Especially the 3, 4, 5 hitters? He practices his swing over and over and over, every day all year long and then because he has 2 strikes you want him to take a 'new' and 'different' swing? The opposing coach says....."Thank you very much."
Unless it's very late in a very close game AND the game is VERY important, I don't wish to lower my players BAs with a coaching call. One that ranks with 'watch the coach when you tag up instead of the ball'.
You're falling into the "I can coach him to get a hit THIS AT BAT" trap, instead of teaching him a successful at bat plan that works a high percentage of the time but not everytime.
By teaching him these different approaches your hitter will learn to get himself out so often that the pitcher doesn't even have to work.
Few things more important than showing a hitter the difference between getting himself out and making the pitcher get him out. Tip your hat to the pitcher when HE gets you out......you still did your job. But, take yourself to the woodshed when you get yourself out. You deserve it.
Teacherman:
With all due respect,
”With one strike you widen the zone. With 2 strikes you widen it more and protect the plate???”
I teach my hitters not to change a thing until they get “two strikes”. However the poster has obviously faced some very talented pitchers to have them do this with only one. I do encourage my players to use their “two strike swing” the entire game when we face an exceptional pitcher who can locate his pitches regardless of count (once a month). Not so I can win the game but so they can and gain confidence in beating a superior pitcher.
”Your hitter will lower his BA at least 100 points each time he widens. Why 100....because now he has to not only cover more plate but cover more pitches”.
With all due respect, you have it backwards. Kids will raise their batting averages 100 points if they learn to shorten swing and expand strike zone with two strikes. They will also add to their RBI totals.
”Just sit down if you're going to protect with 2 strikes. That is the biggest 'give up' I've seen in baseball”.
With all due respect, exactly which high school, college or professional coach are you trying to prepare your hitters for?
”How do you think a good pitcher feels when the hitter goes to his 'protect' swing? Especially the 3, 4, 5 hitters?”
He absolutely hates to see a smart hitter shorten up and expand his strike zone with 2 strikes. Because he knows his “out pitches” will be far less effective. And he really hates it when an entire team has learned to do this, because he knows he won’t be able to pitch a complete game.
”You're falling into the "I can coach him to get a hit THIS AT BAT" trap, instead of teaching him a successful at bat plan that works a high percentage of the time but not everytime”.
This is my successful at bat plan- Anticipate and capitalize on all fast ball counts (try to hit the ball over the lights). Lay off of all curve balls until they get 2 strikes. And with 2 strikes, to shorten swing and expand strike zone. Any pitch that’s close and low must at least be fouled off. And I have to tell you that I have a lot of ex players in a lot of different colleges that have told me they are still successful with this approach (similar to what their college coach teaches as well). Fast ball counts are
1. 0-0
2. 1-0
3. 2-0
4. 2-1
5. 3-0
6. 3-1
7. 1st pitch after a mid inning pitching change
8. Next pitch after an embarrassing off speed pitch
9. Most pitches when the 1b runner is a serious threat to steal
10. Most pitches when you are the 7, 8, 9 batter
”By teaching him these different approaches your hitter will learn to get himself out so often that the pitcher doesn't even have to work”.
I respectfully disagree. Good pitching will over come good hitting. But if you tell your hitter to try to mash a belt high, middle in, fastball on an 0-2 count (in other words make zero changes or adjustments) how far is he going to hit that curve in the dirt or fastball that’s 6 inches off the plate which the ump has been giving all day?
”Tip your hat to the pitcher” only when HE GETS AHEAD OF YOU, but don’t let him get you out easily. With 2 strikes everything changes. It’s time to battle.
Ask anyone in MLB if Alex Cora’s 18 pitch at bat last year was as good as any home run that Barry Bonds hit. There answer will be “better”.
THop
With all due respect,
”With one strike you widen the zone. With 2 strikes you widen it more and protect the plate???”
I teach my hitters not to change a thing until they get “two strikes”. However the poster has obviously faced some very talented pitchers to have them do this with only one. I do encourage my players to use their “two strike swing” the entire game when we face an exceptional pitcher who can locate his pitches regardless of count (once a month). Not so I can win the game but so they can and gain confidence in beating a superior pitcher.
”Your hitter will lower his BA at least 100 points each time he widens. Why 100....because now he has to not only cover more plate but cover more pitches”.
With all due respect, you have it backwards. Kids will raise their batting averages 100 points if they learn to shorten swing and expand strike zone with two strikes. They will also add to their RBI totals.
”Just sit down if you're going to protect with 2 strikes. That is the biggest 'give up' I've seen in baseball”.
With all due respect, exactly which high school, college or professional coach are you trying to prepare your hitters for?
”How do you think a good pitcher feels when the hitter goes to his 'protect' swing? Especially the 3, 4, 5 hitters?”
He absolutely hates to see a smart hitter shorten up and expand his strike zone with 2 strikes. Because he knows his “out pitches” will be far less effective. And he really hates it when an entire team has learned to do this, because he knows he won’t be able to pitch a complete game.
”You're falling into the "I can coach him to get a hit THIS AT BAT" trap, instead of teaching him a successful at bat plan that works a high percentage of the time but not everytime”.
This is my successful at bat plan- Anticipate and capitalize on all fast ball counts (try to hit the ball over the lights). Lay off of all curve balls until they get 2 strikes. And with 2 strikes, to shorten swing and expand strike zone. Any pitch that’s close and low must at least be fouled off. And I have to tell you that I have a lot of ex players in a lot of different colleges that have told me they are still successful with this approach (similar to what their college coach teaches as well). Fast ball counts are
1. 0-0
2. 1-0
3. 2-0
4. 2-1
5. 3-0
6. 3-1
7. 1st pitch after a mid inning pitching change
8. Next pitch after an embarrassing off speed pitch
9. Most pitches when the 1b runner is a serious threat to steal
10. Most pitches when you are the 7, 8, 9 batter
”By teaching him these different approaches your hitter will learn to get himself out so often that the pitcher doesn't even have to work”.
I respectfully disagree. Good pitching will over come good hitting. But if you tell your hitter to try to mash a belt high, middle in, fastball on an 0-2 count (in other words make zero changes or adjustments) how far is he going to hit that curve in the dirt or fastball that’s 6 inches off the plate which the ump has been giving all day?
”Tip your hat to the pitcher” only when HE GETS AHEAD OF YOU, but don’t let him get you out easily. With 2 strikes everything changes. It’s time to battle.
Ask anyone in MLB if Alex Cora’s 18 pitch at bat last year was as good as any home run that Barry Bonds hit. There answer will be “better”.
THop
Are you saying Alex Cora shortened his swing in the two strike situation.......?
The Alex Cora who is a lifetime .246 hitter with 27 HR's over 7 seasons.....? (4/yr)
His fouling all those pitches may be his greatest big league accomplishment. Yet, he's your example?????? Please.
Interesting the examples people use to promote a losing theory.
The other tactic. Taking "good swing" and calling it "mashing" to help his point.
Finally, the biggest lie of all.........a two strike hitter increases his BA by 100 points by shortening his stroke..? What? Do you know what the BA of hitters with two strikes is???????
With your theory a pitcher better never get two strikes on a hitter.
Do you think?...........or just react?
The Alex Cora who is a lifetime .246 hitter with 27 HR's over 7 seasons.....? (4/yr)
His fouling all those pitches may be his greatest big league accomplishment. Yet, he's your example?????? Please.
Interesting the examples people use to promote a losing theory.
The other tactic. Taking "good swing" and calling it "mashing" to help his point.
Finally, the biggest lie of all.........a two strike hitter increases his BA by 100 points by shortening his stroke..? What? Do you know what the BA of hitters with two strikes is???????
With your theory a pitcher better never get two strikes on a hitter.
Do you think?...........or just react?
If a hitter is a better hitter by shortening their stroke on 2 strikes, they might just as well do it all the time. In the meantime I’d look for a hitter that can drive the ball to replace them.
Do coaches who instruct their hitters to take different swings have their players practice all their swings each batting practice?
I guess I just assumed the better hitting coaches and hitters promoted just one swing and adjusted their strike zone accordingly.
I am not sure why some coaches tell their players to automatically not swing at breaking balls. A good hitter with solid fundamentals should welcome a hanging belt high breaking ball whenever they may get it as long as they have their hands back and their weight between their legs.
It seems that a lot of the coaching and theories that go on are done to cover up poor hitting mechanics or to take advantage of bad pitching.
Another thing that is overlooked by many regarding the first pitch is on-deck preparation. If a player does their homework on-deck or while in the dug out watching their team mates hit, they should be better prepared to do something with the first pitch.
Do coaches who instruct their hitters to take different swings have their players practice all their swings each batting practice?
I guess I just assumed the better hitting coaches and hitters promoted just one swing and adjusted their strike zone accordingly.
I am not sure why some coaches tell their players to automatically not swing at breaking balls. A good hitter with solid fundamentals should welcome a hanging belt high breaking ball whenever they may get it as long as they have their hands back and their weight between their legs.
It seems that a lot of the coaching and theories that go on are done to cover up poor hitting mechanics or to take advantage of bad pitching.
Another thing that is overlooked by many regarding the first pitch is on-deck preparation. If a player does their homework on-deck or while in the dug out watching their team mates hit, they should be better prepared to do something with the first pitch.
SBK:
Great comments about duugout and on deck preparation. And I don't say a word to my hitters when they swing at an occasional hanging curve ball. I do remind them on a 2-0 count that they could have gotten a better pitch than that curve in the dirt.
Teacherman:
“Do you think?...........or just react?”
I thought it through. That’s why I include “with all due respect”.
“Are you saying Alex Cora shortened his swing in the two strike situation.......?”
Yes, and expanded his strike zone.
“The Alex Cora who is a lifetime .246 hitter with 27 HR's over 7 seasons.....? (4/yr)”
Yes. The same Alex Cora that played for 3 years at the University of Miami and was drafted in the 3rd round by the LA Dodgers out of there and today is one of the best 900 hitters (out of 9,000,000) that play the game.
“His fouling all those pitches may be his greatest big league accomplishment. Yet, he's your example?????? Please”.
He’s my example. It’s the greatest “at bat” I have ever seen.
“Finally, the biggest lie of all.........a two strike hitter increases his BA by 100 points by shortening his stroke..? What? Do you know what the BA of hitters with two strikes is???????”
Again, I said “With all due respect, you have it backwards. Kids will raise their batting averages 100 points if they learn to shorten swing and expand strike zone with two strikes”. A hitter with 2 strikes that shortens his swing and expands his strike zone will bat 100 points (maybe 200) points higher than those that don’t with 2 strikes.
Respectfully,
THop
Great comments about duugout and on deck preparation. And I don't say a word to my hitters when they swing at an occasional hanging curve ball. I do remind them on a 2-0 count that they could have gotten a better pitch than that curve in the dirt.
Teacherman:
“Do you think?...........or just react?”
I thought it through. That’s why I include “with all due respect”.
“Are you saying Alex Cora shortened his swing in the two strike situation.......?”
Yes, and expanded his strike zone.
“The Alex Cora who is a lifetime .246 hitter with 27 HR's over 7 seasons.....? (4/yr)”
Yes. The same Alex Cora that played for 3 years at the University of Miami and was drafted in the 3rd round by the LA Dodgers out of there and today is one of the best 900 hitters (out of 9,000,000) that play the game.
“His fouling all those pitches may be his greatest big league accomplishment. Yet, he's your example?????? Please”.
He’s my example. It’s the greatest “at bat” I have ever seen.
“Finally, the biggest lie of all.........a two strike hitter increases his BA by 100 points by shortening his stroke..? What? Do you know what the BA of hitters with two strikes is???????”
Again, I said “With all due respect, you have it backwards. Kids will raise their batting averages 100 points if they learn to shorten swing and expand strike zone with two strikes”. A hitter with 2 strikes that shortens his swing and expands his strike zone will bat 100 points (maybe 200) points higher than those that don’t with 2 strikes.
Respectfully,
THop
The purpose of the 2 strike swing is to foul off the close pitches the pitcher is trying to get you to swing. Hoping he makes a mistake and serves up a better pitch. Could you tell me what Sammy Sosa's batting average is with 2 strikes and how many homeruns he hits with 2 strikes. He doesn't change his swing with 2 strikes and I see him strike out on a lot of ugly pitches. Actually. Teacherman, I would love to pitch against your team with 2 strikes. While they are trying to smash for that homerun with 2 strikes I would just keep feeding them off speed pitches knee high and 4 inches off the outside corner where the ump has been giving me the strike all day.If they do hit it it is going right to my all star second baseman.
Just don't recall ever seeing Barry Bonds shorten his swing. Maybe he has. But I know your eyes can not detect it.
I see Albert Pujols play alot.....never seen him shorten up.
Maybe one time (I'm guessing) I've seen a mlb player shorten up in the late innings of a tight World Series game. But, I don't remember it.
Here's a theory.......lets dumb down some players......tell them to take a slightly less than good swing when they have two strikes....that way, they will hit some ground balls instead of striking out.
Then I'll go to them and say "see, that works."
And, if I say it often enough, they will believe it. You see, I'm more interested in winning than developing players. Because anyone with a brain can tell you that taking anything less than my good swing is against the percentages.
Shortening up is the beginning of teaching a hitter to get himself out.
What, no comment on the "mashing". Were you exposed? You see, the good swing can cover a large part of the zone after it has matured. After hundreds of at bats. Why not let the hitter develop?
I see Albert Pujols play alot.....never seen him shorten up.
Maybe one time (I'm guessing) I've seen a mlb player shorten up in the late innings of a tight World Series game. But, I don't remember it.
Here's a theory.......lets dumb down some players......tell them to take a slightly less than good swing when they have two strikes....that way, they will hit some ground balls instead of striking out.
Then I'll go to them and say "see, that works."
And, if I say it often enough, they will believe it. You see, I'm more interested in winning than developing players. Because anyone with a brain can tell you that taking anything less than my good swing is against the percentages.
Shortening up is the beginning of teaching a hitter to get himself out.
What, no comment on the "mashing". Were you exposed? You see, the good swing can cover a large part of the zone after it has matured. After hundreds of at bats. Why not let the hitter develop?
quote:...While they are trying to smash for that homerun with 2 strikes...
Another who can not read. Or compehend. Or has an agenda.
quote:Originally posted by Ametsman:
The purpose of the 2 strike swing is to foul off the close pitches the pitcher is trying to get you to swing. Hoping he makes a mistake and serves up a better pitch..
And, if you are in two strike mode, just what are you going to do with the mistake pitch?
I'll tell you.....exactly what the pitcher hopes you'll do with it. If you're a good hitter and in two strike mode you'll get much less than if you took your good swing.
Just what the pitcher desires.
I do not subscribe to the "protect with 2 strikes" theory. We work very hard on pitch recognition and strike zone awareness (usually dependant upon the umpire for the day). I do not want my hitters giving any advantage to the pitcher. I would rather trust all of our hard work in practice than trash it just because we get 2 strikes on us.
Also, certain situations will require a hitter to shorten up and put the ball in play but, for the majority of the time, I would rather them take their normal approach at the plate. A weak GB is just as bad as a punchout, IMO.
That being said....our approach is hit the ball hard in the middle of the field - gap to gap.
Also, certain situations will require a hitter to shorten up and put the ball in play but, for the majority of the time, I would rather them take their normal approach at the plate. A weak GB is just as bad as a punchout, IMO.
That being said....our approach is hit the ball hard in the middle of the field - gap to gap.
If you widen your strike zone with two strikes, you will be an easy out. If you are good enough to foul off a two strike pitch, why not just hit it hard instead of fouling it off? Most of what I have read about two strike approaches so far is doing nothing except creating fear in the hitter.
If you want a kid to raise his average, have him sit on the fastball and take the breaking ball. A hitter who has two strikes does not change anything in his swing. He should change a little in his mental approach.......think about staying balanced and trying to hit the ball up the middle.
If you want a kid to raise his average, have him sit on the fastball and take the breaking ball. A hitter who has two strikes does not change anything in his swing. He should change a little in his mental approach.......think about staying balanced and trying to hit the ball up the middle.
I think we need to change this discussion. This is how the original post went - "What's your feeling on the first pitch ?
I as a coach have always given the green light. Most pitchers want to get that first pitch across.
Is that being too agressive to go after it or should you take it and get a look at the pitch?
Sometimes I may tell em the first at bat take a look at it and from then on go after the first one."
This was supposed to be a discussion about first pitch and it has turned in to a discussion on 2 strike approach. Perhaps we should start a new thread about 2 strike approach and let this one end. That way if someone has something to add about the first pitch they can. This thread is buried 4 pages deep. I would love to keep the 2 strike approach thread going but as a new one. What do you think?
I as a coach have always given the green light. Most pitchers want to get that first pitch across.
Is that being too agressive to go after it or should you take it and get a look at the pitch?
Sometimes I may tell em the first at bat take a look at it and from then on go after the first one."
This was supposed to be a discussion about first pitch and it has turned in to a discussion on 2 strike approach. Perhaps we should start a new thread about 2 strike approach and let this one end. That way if someone has something to add about the first pitch they can. This thread is buried 4 pages deep. I would love to keep the 2 strike approach thread going but as a new one. What do you think?
I prefer to see the hitter trying to hit hard any strike rather than waiting for his pitch with two strikes.
The only uncertainty comes when the umpire has demonstrated that he'll call a pitch well off the plate a strike. Take a pitch he'll probably call a strike or swing at a pitch nobody but Vlad could hit well is just a no win situation.
With two strikes the hitter also needs to go ahead and swing at a breaking ball in the zone, but certainly try to hold up if it is marginal. All of these things are things that a hitter tries to make a habit, but in any one at bat all they can do is react.
The most important thing is to hit a fastball hard before you get to 2 strikes if possible. Going back to the first pitch strike, it is an advantage for the pitcher because hitters take it too often. Hitters need to jump on first pitch fastballs.
Since we're working with 13 and 14yo who don't generally read off speed pitches very well we encourage right handers to try to go to right center with two strikes and lefties to left center to try to get them to wait on the pitch a bit more. I've found that if we try to get them to go completely to the opposite field it messes their swings up enough that waiting a bit longer doesn't help much.
The only uncertainty comes when the umpire has demonstrated that he'll call a pitch well off the plate a strike. Take a pitch he'll probably call a strike or swing at a pitch nobody but Vlad could hit well is just a no win situation.
With two strikes the hitter also needs to go ahead and swing at a breaking ball in the zone, but certainly try to hold up if it is marginal. All of these things are things that a hitter tries to make a habit, but in any one at bat all they can do is react.
The most important thing is to hit a fastball hard before you get to 2 strikes if possible. Going back to the first pitch strike, it is an advantage for the pitcher because hitters take it too often. Hitters need to jump on first pitch fastballs.
Since we're working with 13 and 14yo who don't generally read off speed pitches very well we encourage right handers to try to go to right center with two strikes and lefties to left center to try to get them to wait on the pitch a bit more. I've found that if we try to get them to go completely to the opposite field it messes their swings up enough that waiting a bit longer doesn't help much.
quote:..
This was supposed to be a discussion about first pitch and it has turned in to a discussion on 2 strike approach. Perhaps we should start a new thread about 2 strike approach and let this one end. That way if someone has something to add about the first pitch they can. This thread is buried 4 pages deep. I would love to keep the 2 strike approach thread going but as a new one. What do you think?
The only problem is your opinion is wrong no matter what thread it's in.
Teacherman
And you opinion is right ???
Perhaps in your own mind !!!
And you opinion is right ???
Perhaps in your own mind !!!
There are two schools of thought here. I have seen teams successful with both. Personally we team our team that you have 2 strikes to take your swing. With two strikes we take the swing to help the team. We look to be aggressive in the zone and make solid contact up the middle. Our goal ios to put pressure on the defense to make a play and we "must" advance a runner. The strike-out is a weak defense's best friend. Tony Gwynn once talked about preparing for a pitcher such as Nolan Ryan. He said that he would shorten his stroke and work on hittingthe other way. He wanted to hit the ball hard but not try to do too much with the pitch and get himself out.
Teacherman you said:
"Unless it's very late in a very close game AND the game is VERY important, I don't wish to lower my players BAs with a coaching call.
Maybe one time (I'm guessing) I've seen a mlb player shorten up in the late innings of a tight World Series game."
I may have misunderstood you, and my apologies if I did. But I would not want to ask my players to try something in the biggest most important games that they had not been doing all along. If it is O.K to have a player shorten up with 2 strikes, then I would certainly do it in other games. But as I said, we play a lot of Whitey Ball and concentrate on the team concept. Many players in the majors are not going to risk their opportunity to hit a homerun in order to advance a runner. They would rather strike out than shorten up.
Teacherman you said:
"Unless it's very late in a very close game AND the game is VERY important, I don't wish to lower my players BAs with a coaching call.
Maybe one time (I'm guessing) I've seen a mlb player shorten up in the late innings of a tight World Series game."
I may have misunderstood you, and my apologies if I did. But I would not want to ask my players to try something in the biggest most important games that they had not been doing all along. If it is O.K to have a player shorten up with 2 strikes, then I would certainly do it in other games. But as I said, we play a lot of Whitey Ball and concentrate on the team concept. Many players in the majors are not going to risk their opportunity to hit a homerun in order to advance a runner. They would rather strike out than shorten up.
TR
bbscout, redbird, cadad and others have lined up behind my school of thought.
The naysayers have gone away.
More evidence that you like messengers, not messages.
bbscout, redbird, cadad and others have lined up behind my school of thought.
The naysayers have gone away.
More evidence that you like messengers, not messages.
I think alot depends on the situation. If the tying run is on 2nd with 2 out late in the game, I want my batter to make contact. Teacherman makes it sound like the best you can do is a weak ground ball. That's where I disagree. We won't put one over the fence, but a nice hard hit ball up the middle is what we're looking for.
If no one is on base, or the game isn't close, then go ahead and take your regular swing.
If no one is on base, or the game isn't close, then go ahead and take your regular swing.
quote:The only problem is your opinion is wrong no matter what thread it's in.
Geez Teacherman, somebody expresses an opinion in a discussion forum and this is the response you give. You go by "Teacherman". Why you don't you attack everybody that doesn't agree with you. I'm so glad I came to this board. It's so positive!
Never was it said I would let my players wait until 2 strikes before they start swining. Hopefully they are hitting before they have 2 strikes.
I can now see why Tiger Paws mom left the forum. With teacherman attacking you because you don't agree with him I would too.
Teacherman, any respect I might have had for you before, which I did because I have read your posts, just flew out the window. I'm sure you don't care and thats fine with me. But you sir have no class in a discussion forum!
